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Author Topic: Is PoS dead?  (Read 16932 times)
cypherdoc
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August 19, 2014, 11:14:53 PM
 #181

It does not matter what Pos system is used for a Pos coin, they all are vulnerable to a social 51% attack.


In the case of nxt no attack is needed as its game set match from the start. Those Lithuanian guys who created nxt always had full control.

...........

It doesn't matter what PoW algorithm is used for PoW coins, they are all vulnerable to 51% attacks.

In the case of Bitcoin and Litecoin, no attack is needed as it was game set match from the start. Those ASIC manufacturers, governments, or banksters with very deep pockets always had full control.

......................

It is getting hard to tell FUD from honest opinion. So many PoS FUDsters...

that's funny.  i don't see any pool even close to 51% currently.  ghash is at 29%.  it appears the community has worked it out and w/o nary an attack.  who's spreading FUD?:

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August 19, 2014, 11:20:51 PM
 #182

It does not matter what Pos system is used for a Pos coin, they all are vulnerable to a social 51% attack.


In the case of nxt no attack is needed as its game set match from the start. Those Lithuanian guys who created nxt always had full control.

...........

It doesn't matter what PoW algorithm is used for PoW coins, they are all vulnerable to 51% attacks.

In the case of Bitcoin and Litecoin, no attack is needed as it was game set match from the start. Those ASIC manufacturers, governments, or banksters with very deep pockets always had full control.

......................

It is getting hard to tell FUD from honest opinion. So many PoS FUDsters...

that's funny.  i don't see any pool even close to 51% currently.  ghash is at 29%.  it appears the community has worked it out and w/o nary an attack.  who's spreading FUD?:



The point was that these entities could gain control easily if they wanted to.

My statement was just as credible as manfreds. The only reason why the early investors in Nxt don't attack the network is because they don't want to. The on.y reason why ASIC manufacturers, governments, or banksters don't attack Bitcoin/Litecoin is because so far they don't want to. You are smoking crack if you don't believe they have the money and ability to get 51% of the Bitcoin/Litecoin network of they really wanted it.

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August 19, 2014, 11:25:42 PM
 #183

It does not matter what Pos system is used for a Pos coin, they all are vulnerable to a social 51% attack.


In the case of nxt no attack is needed as its game set match from the start. Those Lithuanian guys who created nxt always had full control.

...........

It doesn't matter what PoW algorithm is used for PoW coins, they are all vulnerable to 51% attacks.

In the case of Bitcoin and Litecoin, no attack is needed as it was game set match from the start. Those ASIC manufacturers, governments, or banksters with very deep pockets always had full control.

......................

It is getting hard to tell FUD from honest opinion. So many PoS FUDsters...

that's funny.  i don't see any pool even close to 51% currently.  ghash is at 29%.  it appears the community has worked it out and w/o nary an attack.  who's spreading FUD?:



The point was that these entities could gain control easily if they wanted to.

My statement was just as credible as manfreds. The only reason why the early investors in Nxt don't attack the network is because they don't want to. The on.y reason why ASIC manufacturers, governments, or banksters don't attack Bitcoin/Litecoin is because so far they don't want to. You are smoking crack if you don't believe they have the money and ability to get 51% of the Bitcoin/Litecoin network of they really wanted it.

and i think you are smoking crack by thinking they can do so.  

POW mining is in a Pure Strategy Nash Equilibrium as far as i'm concerned.  this is a subset of game theory:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1968579

let ANY altcoin or any gubmint/bank try and match this level of worldwide support and security as derived from the ppl of all nations:

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August 19, 2014, 11:32:33 PM
 #184

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi2thGzzNSs

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August 19, 2014, 11:33:49 PM
 #185

Looks vulnerable to me.  Wink

Give me the budget (or ability to get loans) of the USA government or a national bank and I could kill Bitcoin... money back guaranteed.

Due to the economies of scale ASICs bring to the table, although the Bitcoin/Litecoin network is less vulnerable than it has been in the past, it is still rather vulnerable if someone were to throw a lot of money at attacking it.

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August 19, 2014, 11:45:21 PM
 #186


Exactly.. The first link provided in the video gives a number of under 1 billion to 51% Bitcoin.

http://www.coinometrics.com/bitcoin/brix

If you think government's whose budgets exceed trillions of dollars couldn't attack Bitcoin then you are smoking crack.

A Billion dollars is chump change to them.

It could be done for much cheaper as well by employing a team of elite hackers to root the ghash and discus fish mining pools.

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August 19, 2014, 11:50:19 PM
 #187

Looks vulnerable to me.  Wink

Give me the budget (or ability to get loans) of the USA government or a national bank and I could kill Bitcoin... money back guaranteed.

Due to the economies of scale ASICs bring to the table, although the Bitcoin/Litecoin network is less vulnerable than it has been in the past, it is still rather vulnerable if someone were to throw a lot of money at attacking it.

no.  that's mighty talk from you there.

first off, gubmints don't have unlimited resources for something like this.  sure, they print money to save banks; but not all banks and not with unlimited funds.  this is an entirely different animal w/o a sure outcome for them.

a gubmint's mere entry into the asic market would set off not only alarms throughout the Bitcoin space but also jack the price of all asic components to the moon to the point where it would be prohibitively expensive for them to produce enough equipment to carry out such an attack, let alone get off the mark trying to do so.  and we would find out about it ahead of time.  wait times are a couple months at most high capacity chip makers.  any sudden delay in delivery would call for investigation.  it would be impossible for a gubmint to make such a huge asic order w/o ppl finding out and w/o chip makers jacking their prices to the moon.  the gubmint would be competing with the likes of Intel and Apple for chip runs.

then, there would be the political fallout, especially if they fail.  try pissing off a few billionaires, like Branson or Ka-Shing, whose investment you'd be messing around with. you and/or a gubmint would end up in court in a nasty legal battle for damages.  class action suits would be carried out by now wealthy early adopters.

then, there are the technical out-maneuvers that could be introduced into the protocol after finding out about such a plan and a brief pause to implement them.  a change could be made to SHA 516 as an example.

and so what of a 51% attack that could be shutdown relatively immediately?  there would be a temporary disruption of the network but then we would adapt and the gubmint would have wasted billions for nothing.

no, i think we are in a Pure Strategy Nash Equilibrium.

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August 19, 2014, 11:55:16 PM
 #188


yeah, i didn't even have to look at that link to know you'd put up that crap analysis.

James, as good as he is, thinks that for every action, there is no reaction.  that's ridiculous.  in other words, the community and the market will find out about such plans and react.  mostly by driving up the costs to do such a thing and by out-maneuvering any gubmint intervention.  you just have to look at bittorrent and understand what the internet represents and how it works to understand such a concept.
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August 20, 2014, 12:00:57 AM
 #189


Exactly.. The first link provided in the video gives a number of under 1 billion to 51% Bitcoin.

http://www.coinometrics.com/bitcoin/brix

If you think government's whose budgets exceed trillions of dollars couldn't attack Bitcoin then you are smoking crack.

A Billion dollars is chump change to them.

the mere fact that the Bitcoin network is growing as fast as it is indicates that the participants in the mining space agree with my analysis no matter your FUD. they are racing to make sure a gubmint attack never comes and they are pouring money into mining at an astounding pace that just won't stop. 

i guarantee you that ANY entity looking at that hashrate chart is INTIMIDATED.

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August 20, 2014, 12:03:44 AM
 #190


yeah, i didn't even have to look at that link to know you'd put up that crap analysis.

James, as good as he is, thinks that for every action, there is no reaction.  that's ridiculous.  in other words, the community and the market will find out about such plans and react.  mostly by driving up the costs to do such a thing and by out-maneuvering any gubmint intervention.  you just have to look at bittorrent and understand what the internet represents and how it works to understand such a concept.

I think you severely underestimate your foe. And that is the fall of many a good man.

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August 20, 2014, 12:11:58 AM
 #191


yeah, i didn't even have to look at that link to know you'd put up that crap analysis.

James, as good as he is, thinks that for every action, there is no reaction.  that's ridiculous.  in other words, the community and the market will find out about such plans and react.  mostly by driving up the costs to do such a thing and by out-maneuvering any gubmint intervention.  you just have to look at bittorrent and understand what the internet represents and how it works to understand such a concept.

I think you severely underestimate your foe. And that is the fall of many a good man.

and that's a pretty negative attitude.

i think that Bitcoin has much to offer, to even gubmints.   i think they will see this.  once they understand this is a widespread grassroots movement that can't be stuffed back into the bag, they will embrace it.  yes, there may be a fight for a while but alot of fiat money problems can be solved by Bitcoin and everyone now knows we have a problem.

sound money will make the world a better place.
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August 20, 2014, 12:13:02 AM
 #192

Looks vulnerable to me.  Wink

Give me the budget (or ability to get loans) of the USA government or a national bank and I could kill Bitcoin... money back guaranteed.

Due to the economies of scale ASICs bring to the table, although the Bitcoin/Litecoin network is less vulnerable than it has been in the past, it is still rather vulnerable if someone were to throw a lot of money at attacking it.

no.  that's mighty talk from you there.

first off, gubmints don't have unlimited resources for something like this.  sure, they print money to save banks; but not all banks and not with unlimited funds.  this is an entirely different animal w/o a sure outcome for them.

a gubmint's mere entry into the asic market would set off not only alarms throughout the Bitcoin space but also jack the price of all asic components to the moon to the point where it would be prohibitively expensive for them to produce enough equipment to carry out such an attack, let alone get off the mark trying to do so.  and we would find out about it ahead of time.  wait times are a couple months at most high capacity chip makers.  any sudden delay in delivery would call for investigation.  it would be impossible for a gubmint to make such a huge asic order w/o ppl finding out and w/o chip makers jacking their prices to the moon.  the gubmint would be competing with the likes of Intel and IBM for chip runs.

then, there would be the political fallout, especially if they fail.  try pissing off a few billionaires, like Branson or Ka-Shing, whose investment you'd be messing around with. you and/or a gubmint would end up in court in a nasty legal battle for damages.  class action suits would be carried out by now wealthy early adopters.

then, there are the technical out-maneuvers that could be introduced into the protocol after finding out about such a plan and a brief pause to implement them.  a change could be made to SHA 516 as an example.

and so what of a 51% attack that could be shutdown relatively immediately?  there would be a temporary disruption of the network but then we would adapt and the gubmint would have wasted billions for nothing.

no, i think we are in a Pure Strategy Nash Equilibrium.

You are talking out of your ass here....

1. Yes, they have plenty of money to attack Bitcoin
2. If they were to do so, they wouldn't alert the Bitcoin community about it and give them a warning. It would be top secret & confidential. ASIC chip foundries work under under strict confidentiality agreements... If you don't believe me, then go tell me the status of BFL's latest order and report back. The government has the money and people smart enough to do all assembly and PCB work done themselves.
3. Bitcoin would not be able to respond quickly enough, as the government would already have 51%
4. Political fallout... Lawsuits... Governments pretty much do whatever they want. They always have and always will. If they see Bitcoin as a threat to national security, they can justify their actions.. Even if they don't truly believe this (see: weapons of mass disruption in Iraq). It wouldn't help that u would have to go through THEIR courts to sue THEM... Tell me how that works out for you.
5. A 51% attack cannot be shut down 'relatively immediately' and all confidence in Bitcoin would be lost due to all the things the attackers could do.
6. It could be done for much cheaper than a billion dollars by rooting mining pools.

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August 20, 2014, 12:14:45 AM
 #193

Pos and Pow both have many cons. A new system would do good.
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August 20, 2014, 12:16:33 AM
 #194


yeah, i didn't even have to look at that link to know you'd put up that crap analysis.

James, as good as he is, thinks that for every action, there is no reaction.  that's ridiculous.  in other words, the community and the market will find out about such plans and react.  mostly by driving up the costs to do such a thing and by out-maneuvering any gubmint intervention.  you just have to look at bittorrent and understand what the internet represents and how it works to understand such a concept.

I think you severely underestimate your foe. And that is the fall of many a good man.

and that's a pretty negative attitude.

i think that Bitcoin has much to offer, to even gubmints.   i think they will see this.  once they understand this is a widespread grassroots movement that can't be stuffed back into the bag, they will embrace it.  yes, there may be a fight for a while but alot of fiat money problems can be solved by Bitcoin and everyone now knows we have a problem.

sound money will make the world a better place.

Exactly...

The only reason why they haven't attacked Bitcoin is because they don't want to. It's not because they can't.

The same argument applies to PoS coins. Sure, someone could get 51% of the money supply and attack it, some entity might already have a majority stake. The fact is that no one WANTS to attack either at the moment, and that is why they are both safe for now.

If someone wanted to attack either PoW coins or PoS coins, they could.

Pos and Pow both have many cons. A new system would do good.

Exactly!!! That is the point I am trying to make. People saying PoW is better.. That is just their opinion. People saying PoS is better... That is again just their opinion. Both are vulnerable.

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August 20, 2014, 12:21:23 AM
 #195

Looks vulnerable to me.  Wink

Give me the budget (or ability to get loans) of the USA government or a national bank and I could kill Bitcoin... money back guaranteed.

Due to the economies of scale ASICs bring to the table, although the Bitcoin/Litecoin network is less vulnerable than it has been in the past, it is still rather vulnerable if someone were to throw a lot of money at attacking it.

no.  that's mighty talk from you there.

first off, gubmints don't have unlimited resources for something like this.  sure, they print money to save banks; but not all banks and not with unlimited funds.  this is an entirely different animal w/o a sure outcome for them.

a gubmint's mere entry into the asic market would set off not only alarms throughout the Bitcoin space but also jack the price of all asic components to the moon to the point where it would be prohibitively expensive for them to produce enough equipment to carry out such an attack, let alone get off the mark trying to do so.  and we would find out about it ahead of time.  wait times are a couple months at most high capacity chip makers.  any sudden delay in delivery would call for investigation.  it would be impossible for a gubmint to make such a huge asic order w/o ppl finding out and w/o chip makers jacking their prices to the moon.  the gubmint would be competing with the likes of Intel and IBM for chip runs.

then, there would be the political fallout, especially if they fail.  try pissing off a few billionaires, like Branson or Ka-Shing, whose investment you'd be messing around with. you and/or a gubmint would end up in court in a nasty legal battle for damages.  class action suits would be carried out by now wealthy early adopters.

then, there are the technical out-maneuvers that could be introduced into the protocol after finding out about such a plan and a brief pause to implement them.  a change could be made to SHA 516 as an example.

and so what of a 51% attack that could be shutdown relatively immediately?  there would be a temporary disruption of the network but then we would adapt and the gubmint would have wasted billions for nothing.

no, i think we are in a Pure Strategy Nash Equilibrium.

You are talking out of your ass here....

1. Yes, they have plenty of money to attack Bitcoin
2. If they were to do so, they wouldn't alert the Bitcoin community about it and give them a warning. It would be top secret & confidential. ASIC chip foundries work under under strict confidentiality agreements... If you don't believe me, then go tell me the status of BFL's latest order and report back.

you mean like Eric Snowden secure?  and ALL the employees of those chip makers would be put under oath?  you don't think alot of ppl in the Bitcoin community have connections in those foundries?
Quote

The government has the money and people smart enough to do all assembly and PCB work done themselves.

yep. just like healthcare.gov
Quote
3. Bitcoin would not be able to respond quickly enough, as the government would already have 51%

we have the alert system.  everyone would just close their software until further notice.
Quote

4. Political fallout... Lawsuits... Governments pretty much do whatever they want. They always have and always will. If they see Bitcoin as a threat to national security, they can justify their actions.. Even if they don't truly believe this (see: weapons of mass description in Iraq). It wouldn't help that u would have to go through THEIR courts toro secure THEM... Tell me how that works out for you.

i see you believe in big gubmint.
Quote

5. A 51% attack cannot be shut down 'relatively immediately' and all confidence in Bitcoin would be lost due to all the things the attackers could do.

the cat is out of the bag.  ppl have tasted monetary freedom and like it.  Bitcoin would just reboot in another incarnation.
Quote

6. It could be done for much cheaper than a billion dollars by rooting mining pools.


sure they could.  why hasn't it been done yet?  and if it is, all individual miners can just redirect their hashrate to another pool.
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August 20, 2014, 12:28:08 AM
 #196

You are so convinced you are right there is no point in debating with you.

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

Continue feigning ignorance...

Btw.. go back and read my edits. Both PoW and PoS are vulnerable... that is just a fact.

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August 20, 2014, 01:42:23 AM
 #197

You are so convinced you are right there is no point in debating with you.


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August 20, 2014, 01:52:59 AM
 #198

You are so convinced you are right there is no point in debating with you.

...

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August 20, 2014, 01:57:18 AM
 #199

It depends on the coin. Attacking a sub $100K market cap coin can happen. Attacking a multi-million cap like BlackCoin is very unlikely. With BC's PoS 2.0 it is pretty much as secure as PoW. It would have been attacked and killed off by now if it were so easy to do.
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August 20, 2014, 05:10:26 AM
 #200

I am pretty excited about NEM's distribution and its new algo called PoI, which came about from reflection of the shortcomings of PoS. It is still a little bit of mystery but the Alpha can be tested and played with.

NEM
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