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Author Topic: Is PoS dead?  (Read 16932 times)
manfred
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June 27, 2014, 07:05:45 AM
 #1

This tread has long ago been abandoned because of the updated tread (link below)


Updadet tread is here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=674029.0;topicseen





Proof of Stake coins have many issues here are some:

PoS is not backed by anything other than the belief there are worth anything and there will be an endless supply of PoS coins because one created today does not have a significant advantage over on created tomorrow, next week, next month.......
What currently is happening is new coins are created with PoW, mined for a week until a fixed number is reached and then change to PoS and then you can claim your stake at buying xyz coin. The only advantage a coin released today has over on made sometime in the future is; somebody already bought into it. The advantage quickly disappears if the new coin has a better catch phrase a flashier webpage or bigger marketing capital....
There is no end in sight for stake claimed coins and all promising x % return if you know a bit of programming you will have your very one coin too and everyone can buy into your claim based coin completely deluding the marked.
Its a barrel without bottom and once it clicks by the herd run for the hills if you own a stake.  
  
With a PoS the richer get richer. The most significant flaw of any proof-of-stake system and any system that diminishes coin rewards, is it can't distribute currency from the hoarders to the users of the currency, thus it will end up with the hoarders (the banksters) accumulating all the coin and the currency usage dying.
This is because the wealthy spend a much lower % of their net worth than the masses do.


PoS is a technological dead end. Once the coin is released the only thing to do is "claim your stake" no research, no new capital outside the buy in, no evolving industry...

PoS can NEVER remain decentralized. Satoshi's Proof-of-Work is the only known solution to the Byzantine General's Problem (was a known unsolved problem since at least the 1970s).

PoS is forbidden under Sharia law as it is interest paying

To 51% PoS is dead easy:
You start buying aggressively or "willy" style until you have 51% of a PoS coin, and then sell off your coins so that you no longer have 51%, but your history of having once owned 51% makes it possible to attack the network at any time in the future at next to no cost only some computing resources (and thus electricity costs, etc.).
As you once had a 51% stake, you can build a better blockchain than the other 49% can, starting from the point where you owned 51%. You develop this blockchain in secret, after you have sold off your coins (and profiting from it); and then release your secret blockchain to the world, and nodes will pick it up because it carries more stake than the 49% blockchain.  Now not only do you have your profit from the original sales of the coin, you have your 51% back (to the extent that it's worth anything).  Not all coins need to be in one address, in fact, doing so would prevent the attack in most PoS implementations.
Unlike bitcoin where everyone can see if anyone comes dangerously close to 51, in PoS its all hidden an attack can happen incognito.
There is no way of knowing if any PoS chain is already "dead", as it could have been attacked any-time in the past.
And then there's is also the possible social 51% attack
Quote
..........

But then there's the social 51% attack where a tiny majority hold a massive percentage of the currency. When this occurs the market is open to extensive manipulation for the benefit of the few, as with real world economics (the 1%).

NXT is a good example of the social 51% attack, the top 33 accounts hold 51% between them. The top 50 accounts hold 61.2%. I'm quite sure the top 1% of accounts (400 ish) hold almost everything, with the other 99% playing with spare change. Source
 
PoW is a promise x amount of energy has been used is backed by energy. There is no better backing than energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it. To create a PoW coin you need x amount of energy and you can not cheat. The best you can hope for is to have  a more efficient miner. Because the energy has been spent, the coin has a base value (many other things on top) and is a kind of a storage medium of it which you can exchange. Sending a bitcoin is like sending a proof-en  work done.
(The same apply's for gold digging it up, storing.....  difference is it is awkward to exchange)



Edit:
The past 2 days i had a look at nxt and came to the conclusion that:
NXT is a ticking time bomb. NXT will always be at the mercy of the btctalk alias "BCNext" and his friends. The original 71 buy-in aliases just got some nxt depending on the proportion of bitcoins they sent.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=303898.msg3253189#msg3253189
As you can see he received a total of 22 btc. Since it was capped to 1 bitcoin and the biggest amount of nxt received from the buy in is 50 000 000 nxt  (top two accounts) it can easy be worked out how much the others got.
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=30&switch=1
What will never be know how many alias out of the 71 accounts "BCNext" did create and then sent to himself and his mates. You have to strongly assume that he and his friends have the majority of the coins.

The second post is already talking about police and the 3rd post is quoting a post which is missing, hmm oozes confidence . It seems some posts have been deleted.
96% percent of the market it seems is in china (bter) https://coinmarketcap.com/volume.html#nxt

Crypto is all about trust, any bank is 1000 times more trusting than  "BCNext" and his friends all with hidden alias on btctalk
Greed is a bitch.[/i][/quote]
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June 27, 2014, 07:15:36 AM
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Proof of Stake coins have many issues here are some:

PoS is not backed by anything other than the belief there are worth anything and there will be an endless supply of PoS coins because one created today does not have a significant advantage over on created tomorrow, next week, next month.......
What currently is happening is new coins are created with PoW, mined for a week until a fixed number is reached and then change to PoS and then you can claim your stake at buying xyz coin. The only advantage a coin released today has over on made sometime in the future is; somebody already bought into it. The advantage quickly disappears if the new coin has a better catch phrase a flashier webpage or bigger marketing capital....
There is no end in sight for stake claimed coins and all promising x % return if you know a bit of programming you will have your very one coin too and everyone can buy into your claim based coin completely deluding the marked.
Its a barrel without bottom and once it clicks by the herd run for the hills if you own a stake.  
  
With a PoS the richer get richer. Nothing more to add to it that's just how it is.

To 51% PoS is dead easy:
You start aggressively buying until you have 51% of a PoS coin, and then sell off your coins so that you no longer have 51%, but your history of having once owned 51% makes it possible to attack the network at any time in the future at next to no cost only some computing resources (and thus electricity costs, etc.).
As you once had a 51% stake, you can build a better blockchain than the other 49% can, starting from the point where you owned 51%. You develop this blockchain in secret, after you have sold off your coins (and profiting from it); and then release your secret blockchain to the world, and nodes will pick it up because it carries more stake than the 49% blockchain.  Now not only do you have your profit from the original sales of the coin, you have your 51% back (to the extent that it's worth anything).  Not all coins need to be in one address, in fact, doing so would prevent the attack in most PoS implementations.

 
PoW is backed by energy. There is no better backing than energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it. To create a PoW coin you need x amount of energy and you can not cheat. The best you can hope for is to have  a more efficient miner. Because the energy has been spent, the coin has a base value (many other things on top) and is a kind of a storage medium.

Agreed - PoS is dead, the economic model is crap as people who got in early will just stake and sell at a constant rate while their mean wealth does not change. Not to mention exchanges who likely stake their coins and drive the prices further down as they sell. For the people that have huge farms, a coin that goes PoW --> PoS is even worse. Most coins that are PoS usually have very bad distribution ratio's because of this.

I would say in the next 2-3 months most PoS coins will start to die off.
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June 27, 2014, 07:21:03 AM
 #3

Proof of Stake coins have many issues here are some:

PoS is not backed by anything other than the belief there are worth anything and there will be an endless supply of PoS coins because one created today does not have a significant advantage over on created tomorrow, next week, next month.......

not true at all, nxt

How about you go into detail how you would carry out your 51% attack scenario on nxt? I'm quite certain its not possible.

With a PoS the richer get richer. Nothing more to add to it that's just how it is.

Yes i agree that sucks. Same in PoW tho. Mining is in the hands of a few prefessionals these days and unless you have a significant amount of money to invest into mining hardware you don't stand a chance on competing.
If you invested that money into a PoS coin you would be a rich staker. Same story different name.
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June 27, 2014, 07:44:59 AM
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PoW is backed by energy. There is no better backing than energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it.
What energy you are talking about?
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June 27, 2014, 08:15:55 AM
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PoW is backed by energy. There is no better backing than energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it.
What energy you are talking about?

evident that the electricity  Wink

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June 27, 2014, 08:28:03 AM
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One of the problems with PoS is and has always been the "nothing to lose".

You can happily try to double spend all the time because even if you are not successful, you haven't lost any hashing power. Compare this to PoW where if you try to double spend, but not succeed, the blocks you have created are worthless..

The same way, if there were to be a fork, you could vote (generate PoS blocks) on ALL chains because, why not? you have nothing to lose.


So, yes PoS is broken and dying
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June 27, 2014, 08:44:51 AM
 #7

And.... why are POS coins gaining more and more market presence everyday and POW coins (except from Bitcoin obviously) are losing they market share progressively?   Huh Huh Huh

Pls, OP, could you answer me? Is the market stupid? Should I sell all my nxts now only with a 200% of profit?   Huh Huh Huh


This thread stinks like LTC old-bag-holders trying to save their unfortunate investments...
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June 27, 2014, 08:51:55 AM
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And.... why are POS coins gaining more and more market presence everyday and POW coins (except from Bitcoin obviously) are losing they market share progressively?   Huh Huh Huh

Pls, OP, could you answer me? Is the market stupid? Should I sell all my nxts now only with a 200% of profit?   Huh Huh Huh


This thread stinks like LTC old-bag-holders trying to save their unfortunate investments...

Yes the market is stupid, just look at your reply, you are the proof in this case.
Yes you should before you can't sell it at all.

There will come a time when all PoS coins return to their real value, $0 and if you want to be one of the PoS coin bagholders, be my guest.
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June 27, 2014, 08:54:10 AM
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I'd like to see how someone can agressively buy 51% of the coins Grin
It'll be much cheaper to buy 500m of equipment to get 51% of the Bitcoin hashrate.
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June 27, 2014, 08:57:06 AM
 #10

Unfortunately slightly ignorant topic. Proof of Work was fundamental but becomes outdated as technology moves ahead.

Since Bitcoin was released in early 2009 it has set the standard in the cryptocurrency field. Until today its Proof of Work mining system has been the most popular and frequently used model of assigning value of digital currencies. With Bitcoin's rise in popularity over the last five years its network has grown to such massive size that it has become impossible for the average user to mine and centralised, large-scale, energy-intensive mining operations have taken over, GHash.io now having accumulated close to 51% of all hashing power.

Bitcoin's energy demand, resulting real-world environmental costs and centralised network lead to the critical question of whether this extremely energy-hungry system is sustainable -- while superior, more secure and energy efficient technologies such as Proof of Stake are available. In the resource-hungry world of today, Proof of Work is not a smart and sustainable choice.

TL;DR.
PoW (as BTC): extremely energy-hungry,  slow,  centralised mining network

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June 27, 2014, 08:59:21 AM
 #11

And.... why are POS coins gaining more and more market presence everyday and POW coins (except from Bitcoin obviously) are losing they market share progressively?   Huh Huh Huh

Pls, OP, could you answer me? Is the market stupid? Should I sell all my nxts now only with a 200% of profit?   Huh Huh Huh


This thread stinks like LTC old-bag-holders trying to save their unfortunate investments...
Its entirely up to you when you exit the fool finding bigger fool buy in scheme.
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June 27, 2014, 08:59:29 AM
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man your post is wrong in so many aspects, that at first i thought it is sarcasm..

Proof of Stake coins have many issues here are some:

PoS is not backed by anything other than the belief there are worth anything and there will be an endless supply of PoS coins because one created today does not have a significant advantage over on created tomorrow, next week, next month.......
What currently is happening is new coins are created with PoW, mined for a week until a fixed number is reached and then change to PoS and then you can claim your stake at buying xyz coin. The only advantage a coin released today has over on made sometime in the future is; somebody already bought into it. The advantage quickly disappears if the new coin has a better catch phrase a flashier webpage or bigger marketing capital....
There is no end in sight for stake claimed coins and all promising x % return if you know a bit of programming you will have your very one coin too and everyone can buy into your claim based coin completely deluding the marked.
Its a barrel without bottom and once it clicks by the herd run for the hills if you own a stake.  

 

how is this different with pow coins? Before NXT there was only PoW coins (except peercoin which us hybrid pox/pos) that ware endlessly cloned. How hard is ist to change pool and start mining more profitable coin? And you dont even have to do that .. Multipool does that for you!

moreover: for last 6 months i have been minig scrypt coins on multipools. I bought second hand graphic cards (hash power/price ratio was 2x bigger compared to buying new hardware). After 6 months of mining i mined about same amount of btc (on multipools) that was the price of mining hardware (and i did not pay for electricity!!)
why I am telling this?

Unless you are corporate miner, it is more profitable to buy PoW coin, than mine it
What is than difference between pow and pos for normal people?


BITCOIN is not backed by anything other than the belief there are worth anything !!!

With a PoS the richer get richer. Nothing more to add to it that's just how it is.

that is like core attribute of human society. Richer get richer. That is how it works and cant be changed with new coin


To 51% PoS is dead easy:
You start aggressively buying until you have 51% of a PoS coin, and then sell off your coins so that you no longer have 51%, but your history of having once owned 51% makes it possible to attack the network at any time in the future at next to no cost only some computing resources (and thus electricity costs, etc.).
As you once had a 51% stake, you can build a better blockchain than the other 49% can, starting from the point where you owned 51%. You develop this blockchain in secret, after you have sold off your coins (and profiting from it); and then release your secret blockchain to the world, and nodes will pick it up because it carries more stake than the 49% blockchain.  Now not only do you have your profit from the original sales of the coin, you have your 51% back (to the extent that it's worth anything).  Not all coins need to be in one address, in fact, doing so would prevent the attack in most PoS implementations.

that is really not how pos works. try educate yourself before writing post http://www.docdroid.net/cckd/forging0-4-3.pdf.html
  
PoW is backed by energy. There is no better backing than energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it. To create a PoW coin you need x amount of energy and you can not cheat. The best you can hope for is to have  a more efficient miner. Because the energy has been spent, the coin has a base value (many other things on top) and is a kind of a storage medium.

you seem not to understand that energy spent in mining does not (magically) transform to value of currency that was mined. It is burned and goes to the air(hating up the planet).  

EDIT: no one cares how much energy was spent to mining pow coin (except enviromentalists). no one even knows exactly how much energy was spent on mining
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June 27, 2014, 09:05:47 AM
 #13

And.... why are POS coins gaining more and more market presence everyday and POW coins (except from Bitcoin obviously) are losing they market share progressively?   Huh Huh Huh

Pls, OP, could you answer me? Is the market stupid? Should I sell all my nxts now only with a 200% of profit?   Huh Huh Huh


This thread stinks like LTC old-bag-holders trying to save their unfortunate investments...

I agree with you on pos/pow debate
but I really think market IS stupid Cheesy

I think crowd is as wise as most stupid one in the crowd.Market is not really a crowd, but close to it

if market was not stupid, why would pow coins have so big market share? Cheesy
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June 27, 2014, 09:06:05 AM
 #14

this is no doubt one of the funniest, most inaccurate and perhaps most butthurt threads I've happened to read on this forum

manfred?
you clearly lack ANY education on Proof of Stake and then post this thread? it's pretty embarrasing to be honest... Lips sealed

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June 27, 2014, 09:06:20 AM
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It's funny that people take him serious.

He doesn't even understand how PoW works and spreads FUD about PoS.

I double dare anyone on the planet who reads this to buy all the NXT that exists and then sell it all for 1$  Grin

I would sell all mine before he does, because then I would be a multi billionaire.
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June 27, 2014, 09:13:09 AM
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It's funny that people take him serious.

He doesn't even understand how PoW works and spreads FUD about PoS.

I double dare anyone on the planet who reads this to buy all the NXT that exists and then sell it all for 1$  Grin

Every 1% of all available NXTs he buys - the price goes up 25% in geometric progression, it will take all the money in the world and then some to buy 51%. Meanwhile other people will be competing with him to get their share driving the price even higher. It's MUCH cheaper to just build your own factories manufacturing ASICs all over China, and get 51% of Bitcoin hashrate than buy up 51% of a PoS crypto.
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June 27, 2014, 09:19:17 AM
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It's funny that people take him serious.

He doesn't even understand how PoW works and spreads FUD about PoS.

I double dare anyone on the planet who reads this to buy all the NXT that exists and then sell it all for 1$  Grin

Every 1% of all available NXTs he buys - the price goes up 25% in geometric progression, it will take all the money in the world and then some to buy 51%. Meanwhile other people will be competing with him to get their share driving the price even higher. It's MUCH cheaper to just build your own factories manufacturing ASICs all over China, and get 51% of Bitcoin hashrate than buy up 51% of a PoS crypto.

+1
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June 27, 2014, 09:27:43 AM
 #18

Lets stick to some simple truths about economics and technology.

Money has value because it is accepted by people, whether FIAT or digital, whether PoS or PoW, its acceptance that gives value not 'backing'.

Technology also has value when it is simple and transportable so it can evolve quickly and rapidly.

Crypto's which are now driving innovation/specialisation in the silicon industry faster than traditional computing chips have lost sight of the fact that its not ASICS that drive value but the above.

Prices of energy are only going one way and the hunger of PoW when it hits the Environmental headlines will affect it, if consumers don't turn off it there will be legislation to be 'green' like there are for most high energy consuming industries.

Newer crypto's using more flexible technologies like Java and non energy hungry mechanisms are therefore better placed to grow, evolve and gain widespread adoption.

I don't know what the final best placed Po[X] Algorithm will be but it needs to be energy efficient and not need huge computers and the technology needs to be easy and simple so it can spread virally.

PoW is not decentralised any more - you need $$$ and specialised Hardware - this economically takes maintaining consensus out of the hands of the masses which I thought was the original intent.

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June 27, 2014, 09:30:19 AM
 #19

Stupid worthless Nxt:
http://nxter.org/nxt-newsletter-13/

Good luck finding your Proof of Stupidity. Please post it here or at nxtforum.org, if you really find one.

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June 27, 2014, 09:32:46 AM
 #20

But there is one problem with pure PoS coins:

Rich get richer JUST by sitting on their stake.

which (in my opinion) inevitably leads to centralisation of stake (just getting all fees until you get all the currency).
It will take definitely much longer time than centralisation of mining power did, but it probably will happen some time.
And wide adoption of such currency is only speeding the process (more transactions → more fees)

Am I wrong?

That is the only thing that i dont like about NXT and
that is where NEM with their Proof of Importance algorithm can succeed.
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