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Author Topic: Is PoS dead?  (Read 16938 times)
CoinHoarder
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August 20, 2014, 02:37:51 PM
 #221

Both pow and pos have serious flaws. Neither is immune.

Bitcoin is PoW and still alive for longer than 4 years without major flaw.
there is major flaws with pow. It's like cars... We have cars that are majorly adopted but they are run on petrol which is a major flaw in the concept of cars due the inefficiency of the engines and fuel source for the engine. Everyone knows electric cars are more efficient and solve the major flaw previously mentioned how ever they are only a fraction of the total automotive industry and not very popular regardless of being superior technology because the infrastructure isn't in place to allow mass adoption.

Not only that but people  won't actually try the technology because they are complacent with what they already use because in their eyes it is "good enough" and will not realise the deficiencies in what they currently use until the later more advanced and efficient technology becomes further adopted at which point they are part of the mainstream adoption and missed the "early adopter" status of that technology.

There will always be people who deny that the more efficient and advanced technology is better and fight against it due to vested interest which is what we see today with those who have a vested interest in bitcoin and those who have a public persona in the btc space.

The same concept can be applied very well to 1st and second gen crypto..

Just because bitcoin is fully functional and gaining huge adoption, it doesn't mean it's the superior technology.. Eventually  infrastructure will be built for the superior tech and people will start to see the it is superior and it will gain adoption...

The question is... At what point will people see this and move from old inefficient tech to the New more efficient and advanced tech? And where in this adoption curve do you fit in?

This is a solid post. Reminds me of a post I wrote some days back.

#1 - The centralization of PoW mining will become more and more centralized over time, because big operations such as this will make the little guys unprofitable and therefore push them out of the market.
#2 - The huge amount of electricity that is wasted needlessly with PoW.

You've managed to fail twice in a row. Good job!

At least I'm not a fanboi that only cares about his special interests and can admit Bitcoin has flaws.  Tongue

You think Bitcoin's PoW is a flaw? It's one of it's greatest strengths and quite possibly the most important feature.

Yes, it is a flaw when compared to something like Bitshare's delegated proof of stake, which has fixed the "nothing at stake" issue with other PoS coins.. among other things. Seeing as though DPoS uses a fraction of the energy to protect the BitsharesX block chain just as securely, this is a vast improvement in and of itself. Furthermore, using dPoS you can increase block speeds to 10 to 30 seconds without seeing the problems that you would see using PoW (stales, forks, etcetra.) http://bitshares.org/delegated-proof-of-stake/

Unless large miners are getting discounts on electricity, they really have no advantage over smaller miners.
You actually can get discounts on electricity if you use a lot of it from certain companies, but there are other ways they can gain advantage.

Obviously someone setting up a large farm such as this has pretty deep pockets. Someone with deep pockets can order many more mining rigs than joe blow, which reduces his percentage of the network, which reduces joe blow's profits. This could be done (as we are seeing) to an extent that joe blow will never break even (in BTC... that's all we care about). Do you think joe blow will continue buying mining rigs if he can't break even? They can push him out of the market. The fact that most mining manufacturers offer bulk pricing only exemplifies this.

Another way they could gain an advantage is by investing money in manufacturing their own ASIC mining chips, PCBs, and assembly lines. In that scenario they would be paying a fraction of the price for a mining rig that runs at the same speed as joe blow (even more so than bulk discounts). Which allows them to purchase more mining rigs, further reducing the cost of the mining rigs, and therefore further reduce joe blow's portion of the network.

Although, large farms do have additional expenses that a smaller miner doesn't need to worry about (space, cooling, power requirements, upkeep).
That is true, but if they can achieve a certain percentage of the network they will easily operate at a profit. Especially when they are getting the mining rigs much cheaper than average consumers via bulk discounts or manufacturing their own. If it wasn't wildly profitable, why would large manufacturers like KNC, Avalon, Bitfury be making these massive farms in the first place? I know how much of a headache a large farm is to setup and run.. I find it hard to believe they would do it if it wasn't highly profitable. Due to economies of scale, it is very profitable.

So, I'm wondering how large mining farms will make "little guys unprofitable". As long as "little guys" have access to the most recent hardware, they will be just fine.
Because of the reasons I've stated above. Sure, the little guys have access to the most recent hardware, but they are paying much more for that same hardware than the large farms and manufacturers are paying. They are at a disadvantage from the get go. To make things worse, a lot of the little guys are closing up shop and moving on. I mean.. if you bought mining hardware and you lost a lot of Bitcoins doing so (IE. did not break even), would you keep buying mining hardware? It is still profitable for large farms and manufacturers, but not so much for the little guys. In my ASIC investments, NONE of them have broken even, and I know I'm not alone. I will never buy a Bitcoin ASIC again in my life.

Saying electricity is "wasted" due to PoW is like saying you "wasted" gas driving to work today.
Yes, I would consider both of those processes wasteful of natural resources, and potentially the downfall of humanity living on planet earth at some unknown point of time in the future. If gasoline engines weren't such a bad thing for the environment and wasteful of natural resources, then why is there so much effort being made to move beyond gasoline with the use of alternative fuels? Do you not understand how many natural resources are wasted during the process of generating electricity, how the environment is negatively impacted while doing so, and why using less electricity is beneficial to that problem?

Bitcoin is useful and the PoW is required for it to function. So far no other solutions have been able to take a meaningful market share away from Bitcoin, for good reason.

There haven't really been any good solutions to PoW until very recently. There have been different variants of PoS that all suffer from various flaws. Only until recently have most of those flaws been fixed. A change like this (from Bitcoin to something else) will take time. The use of gasoline is actually a great analogy, I am glad you brought it up.

There are issues with the use of Gasoline just like there are issues with Bitcoin, both are not perfect for a few similar reasons (harmful to the environment and waste of natural resources.) Yet, Gasoline and Bitcoin will be around for a long time because of the infrastructure that has been built by both of them. In gasoline's case there are billions of vehicles, power tools, planes, etcetra that use it... to switch to an alternative we would need to rebuild these or design and build new ones. In Bitcoin's case the exchanges, ATMs, payment processors, etcetra are already setup to work with Bitcoin... to work with another crypto currency would require reprogramming just about every core service involved in the Bitcoin ecosystem. Costs are another thing holding gasoline and Bitcoin alternatives.. it is expensive to develop alternative technologies.

The advancement in technology is still being improved upon, but better technological alternatives certainly already exist for both gasoline and Bitcoin. It will take time, how long is anyone's guess, but I am certain that both will be uprooted as the king of fuel (gasoline) and the king of crypto currencies (Bitcoin) at some point in the future. Gasoline is definitely not the only example, all technologies come and go as better technologies replace the less adequate technologies. The transitions from VHS to DVD to Blu-ray took a lot of time. Along with the transition from Records to Tapes to CDs to MP3s to FLACs took a lot of time. I could go on and on with these examples..

Notice the more technological advancements happen at a quicker pace.. I don't see why this couldn't be applicable to Bitcoin as well. It is after all much cheaper to reprogram something than to rebuild all the vehicles, power tools, etcetra in the world. Furthermore, gasoline has many other factors why it is probably the best option for the foreseeable future, but Bitcoin has less so.

I have no idea what "special interests" you are talking about.

I just assumed by your reply that you could think through the above reasoning yourself and understand it, yet still chose to call me out for being wrong because you own a lot of Bitcoins and want to protect your nest egg. Many people (individuals, companies, and corporations) are heavily invested in the current system (gasoline and Bitcoin), and profit from it. They are hesitant to allow change and will spend any amount of time, effort, and money that it takes to thwart the opposition because it is how they sustain their lifestyles and provide for their families. I apologize if my assumption was incorrect. If my reasoning is wrong, then please explain how I am wrong. Sometimes I do a horrible job of conveying exactly what I am trying to say, even though it makes perfect sense in my head. Smiley

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August 20, 2014, 02:45:01 PM
 #222

I recently tried to lay to rest some concerns I have about the technical underpinnings of the PoS system as used in NXT. See this thread on the NXT forum:

https://nxtforum.org/general/forging-questions/

Needless to say, my concerns have not been laid to rest.

Furthermore, I have to say that the lack of technical expertise in the NXT community is somewhat worrying.
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August 20, 2014, 02:47:48 PM
 #223

I recently tried to lay to rest some concerns I have about the technical underpinnings of the PoS system as used in NXT. See this thread on the NXT forum:

https://nxtforum.org/general/forging-questions/

Needless to say, my concerns have not been laid to rest.

Furthermore, I have to say that the lack of technical expertise in the NXT community is somewhat worrying.

You'll just have to search Bitcointalk original NXT thread (the one that's over 1000 pages long) for answers, developers are busy coding new features like crazy, no time to answer everyone's questions Smiley
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August 20, 2014, 03:03:57 PM
 #224

I recently tried to lay to rest some concerns I have about the technical underpinnings of the PoS system as used in NXT. See this thread on the NXT forum:

https://nxtforum.org/general/forging-questions/

Needless to say, my concerns have not been laid to rest.

Furthermore, I have to say that the lack of technical expertise in the NXT community is somewhat worrying.

You'll just have to search Bitcointalk original NXT thread (the one that's over 1000 pages long) for answers, developers are busy coding new features like crazy, no time to answer everyone's questions Smiley

I think NXT is in a deplorable state if basic questions about achieving consensus (the single goal of PoS) cannot be answered in a straightforward manner.

Such knowledge should not be limited to core developers or buried deep in long discussion threads.
It should be very prominent in FAQs and wikis and whitepapers. It is not. That is cause for worry...
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August 20, 2014, 03:05:49 PM
 #225

Did you read the NXT whitepaper draft?
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August 20, 2014, 03:10:26 PM
 #226

Did you read the NXT whitepaper draft?

Yes he did - didn´t you read the link he posted?

It clearly shows that he found no answers in the Whitepaper.

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August 20, 2014, 03:14:49 PM
 #227

Too bad then, I guess there won't be a completed whitepaper any time soon. They are still writing code and have scheduled features that will take another year or more before NXT is anywhere close to complete, the whitepaper will always be incomplete and in draft mode.
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August 20, 2014, 04:12:46 PM
 #228

Quote
Quote
Does anyone still believe that purchasing a machine for thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars to mine POW coins is still profitable?

look at the escalating hashrate.  certainly someone does.
Quote

Furthermore, as energy costs and hashrates continue to rise, fewer and fewer people will get involved with POW mining.

orders of mining equipment are still in high demand.  hashrate is still escalating.  when can we expect this participation to die off, please?

Lol... You obviously haven't done much Bitcoin ASIC investing if you think you can still break even. Eventually people will learn this and Bitcoin mining will become centralized.

All you did was shill for Hash Fast, a scam Bitcoin ASIC company, and spew lies about them so more people would buy their hardware that never came.

That was probably profitable for you, but most people got screwed by them.

haha.  stooping to new lows out of desperation now, i see.  too bad, HF wasn't my fault and i had no control.  yeah, bad endorsement, no question, but certainly understandable like many other endorsements made in the community:  Ver for gox, Andreas & Tuur for NeoBee, etc.  but go ahead, keep trying to defend POS with shit arguments.  you're a prick for bringing it up and you know it.

i do mine and it takes work.  real blood, sweat and tears.  which is precisely why it will work and no gubmint will try to 51% attack.  gubmints and money printers don't want to work, they'd rather print and take the easy route.  just like you and the other POS shills.  you'd rather take the easy route to success.  sorry, ain't gonna happen and it isn't happening.
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August 20, 2014, 04:15:53 PM
 #229


quoting your opinion proves nothing.  we just saw 45M NXT bought for a measly 200BTC.  just goes to show you how badly the hacker wanted BTC instead of NXT.  yet he still hold 8M NXT to screw around the NXT network.  can one short NXT yet?

trying to physically buy up a crapload of asic mining equipment, build a secret datacenter equivalent to all the current mines out there, channel enough water and electricity to such a secret facility, hire the manpower and construction machinery to build out said center, hire the expertise to implement such hardware is NXT to impossible at this point.  we see asic chip makers pushing the 14nm chip frontier while Intel is still on 28nm.  and yet the boogeyman gubmint is supposed to be the bleeding edge?  no, i'll take the private, open source sector anytime.
You keep conveniently ignoring what I wrote before.  A bad actor does not need to buy or build asics in secret.  All the hash rate centralization is already concentrated and available in the form of pools.  Do you somehow believe that pool operators would turn down a buy out offer that's accompanied by the threat of government force?  Or do you somehow believe ghash.io or discuss fish servers are mysteriously unknown or so well hidden that governments can't find them?  This is one of the main problems of PoW in it's current winner take all form is that the economic laws of division of labor make small miners eventually obsolete.  That and the fact that block rewards are forever decreasing makes centralization through pools a guaranteed fact.  Even with p2p available it is not being used and majority still mines in pools with no known owners or operators.  Why?  Because it's simple.  Path of least resistance.  An average miner just wants to make a profit so he will go where the profit is greatest not some tilting at windmills I will mine alone because network needs protection BS.
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August 20, 2014, 04:20:04 PM
 #230

Quote
Quote
Does anyone still believe that purchasing a machine for thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars to mine POW coins is still profitable?

look at the escalating hashrate.  certainly someone does.
Quote

Furthermore, as energy costs and hashrates continue to rise, fewer and fewer people will get involved with POW mining.

orders of mining equipment are still in high demand.  hashrate is still escalating.  when can we expect this participation to die off, please?

Lol... You obviously haven't done much Bitcoin ASIC investing if you think you can still break even. Eventually people will learn this and Bitcoin mining will become centralized.

All you did was shill for Hash Fast, a scam Bitcoin ASIC company, and spew lies about them so more people would buy their hardware that never came.

That was probably profitable for you, but most people got screwed by them.

yeah, i thought i recognized your scammer name, Coinhoarder:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316370.0
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August 20, 2014, 04:33:15 PM
 #231


quoting your opinion proves nothing.  we just saw 45M NXT bought for a measly 200BTC.  just goes to show you how badly the hacker wanted BTC instead of NXT.  yet he still hold 8M NXT to screw around the NXT network.  can one short NXT yet?

trying to physically buy up a crapload of asic mining equipment, build a secret datacenter equivalent to all the current mines out there, channel enough water and electricity to such a secret facility, hire the manpower and construction machinery to build out said center, hire the expertise to implement such hardware is NXT to impossible at this point.  we see asic chip makers pushing the 14nm chip frontier while Intel is still on 28nm.  and yet the boogeyman gubmint is supposed to be the bleeding edge?  no, i'll take the private, open source sector anytime.
You keep conveniently ignoring what I wrote before.  A bad actor does not need to buy or build asics in secret.  All the hash rate centralization is already concentrated and available in the form of pools.  Do you somehow believe that pool operators would turn down a buy out offer that's accompanied by the threat of government force?  Or do you somehow believe ghash.io or discuss fish servers are mysteriously unknown or so well hidden that governments can't find them?  This is one of the main problems of PoW in it's current winner take all form is that the economic laws of division of labor make small miners eventually obsolete.  That and the fact that block rewards are forever decreasing makes centralization through pools a guaranteed fact.  Even with p2p available it is not being used and majority still mines in pools with no known owners or operators.  Why?  Because it's simple.  Path of least resistance.  An average miner just wants to make a profit so he will go where the profit is greatest not some tilting at windmills I will mine alone because network needs protection BS.

somehow i didn't think you were serious. Wink

and i keep putting up this chart which shows yet another backing off away from the 51% scenario that you are so worried about.  how many times have we bumped up against that % w/o incident?  3x.  and still no problems.  there's a game theory going on here that you guys conveniently dismiss.

no, i don't think a gubmint would take the legal or political risk to subvert  mining operators.  plus, there's too many of them and they are scattered round the world.  what's to stop one of those operators from doing a Lavabit and telling the world?  gubmint cannot risk that type of shitstorm.

and just which gubmint are we talking about here?  the US gubmint?  ok, what if China or Russia is secretly supporting their mining operators b/c they are quite happy with the possibility that Bitcoin subverts the USD?  what if they are secretly building mines of their own?  last i looked, there is quite a bit of derision going on btwn sovereigns and war is not out of the possiblity.  do you really think they all act as a monolith?

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August 20, 2014, 04:34:15 PM
 #232

Lol... You obviously haven't done much Bitcoin ASIC investing if you think you can still break even. Eventually people will learn this and Bitcoin mining will become centralized.

All you did was shill for Hash Fast, a scam Bitcoin ASIC company, and spew lies about them so more people would buy their hardware that never came.

That was probably profitable for you, but most people got screwed by them.

yeah, i thought i recognized your scammer name, Coinhoarder:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316370.0

Nice try bro, but I actually pay my debts in this community. Scammers don't repay their debts, therefore I am not a scammer. I have two debts which I am actively paying off. The first is a 30 Bitcoin loan that I owed 32 Bitcoins for, as of a few days ago I have paid 31.5 Bitcoin of the 32 Bitcoins owed. If you don't believe me, here is evidence on the block chain I am actively paying off that debt: https://blockchain.info/address/1MenQ9tJiGHaNwTiFJJu2g9F2qpseWzPMu

After I pay off that debt, I will be paying off the bounty debt next, and will be free and clear of all debt owed in the cryptocoin community. You see.. I am a man of my word and am in the process of paying my debts in the community. There are many people that can vouch for me that I am a trustworthy person, I have done a lot of honest business with happy customers and/or sellers.

Tell me, when will you be paying back Hash Fast customers that you duped into buying hardware from a scam company that never delivered? The only recourse you seem to be providing is an apology. I've provided both an apology AND I am paying people back... I've put in a lot more effort than you have to right my wrongs. Wink Tongue

Furthermore (more in line with the topic of conversation), tell me how your ASIC investments have gone for you thus far. Minus the free mining rigs you got from HashFast for sending customers to their scam?

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August 20, 2014, 04:36:25 PM
 #233

Quote
Quote
Does anyone still believe that purchasing a machine for thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars to mine POW coins is still profitable?

look at the escalating hashrate.  certainly someone does.
Quote

Furthermore, as energy costs and hashrates continue to rise, fewer and fewer people will get involved with POW mining.

orders of mining equipment are still in high demand.  hashrate is still escalating.  when can we expect this participation to die off, please?

Lol... You obviously haven't done much Bitcoin ASIC investing if you think you can still break even. Eventually people will learn this and Bitcoin mining will become centralized.

All you did was shill for Hash Fast, a scam Bitcoin ASIC company, and spew lies about them so more people would buy their hardware that never came.

That was probably profitable for you, but most people got screwed by them.

yeah, i thought i recognized your scammer name, Coinhoarder:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316370.0

and you know Coinhoarder, any reasonable person can see that HF was totally out of my control.  and the first sentence of my endorsement revealed to everyone that i was being paid.

you, otoh, have complete control of paying off your promises but haven't.  and after all the work those poor guys did designing those beautful logos for you to shit on them.  i actually took pity on one of them and bought one of their designs so all that work wouldn't be for naught.
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August 20, 2014, 04:38:48 PM
 #234

and you know Coinhoarder, any reasonable person can see that HF was totally out of my control.  and the first sentence of my endorsement revealed to everyone that i was being paid.

you, otoh, have complete control of paying off your promises but haven't.  and after all the work those poor guys did designing those beautful logos for you to shit on them.  i actually took pity on one of them and bought one of their designs so all that work wouldn't be for naught.

Once again you fail at reading comprehension, go back and read my last post.

Lol... You obviously haven't done much Bitcoin ASIC investing if you think you can still break even. Eventually people will learn this and Bitcoin mining will become centralized.

All you did was shill for Hash Fast, a scam Bitcoin ASIC company, and spew lies about them so more people would buy their hardware that never came.

That was probably profitable for you, but most people got screwed by them.

yeah, i thought i recognized your scammer name, Coinhoarder:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316370.0

Nice try bro, but I actually pay my debts in this community. Scammers don't repay their debts, therefore I am not a scammer. I have two debts which I am actively paying off. The first is a 30 Bitcoin loan that I owed 32 Bitcoins for, as of a few days ago I have paid 31.5 Bitcoin of the 32 Bitcoins owed. If you don't believe me, here is evidence on the block chain I am actively paying off that debt: https://blockchain.info/address/1MenQ9tJiGHaNwTiFJJu2g9F2qpseWzPMu

After I pay off that debt, I will be paying off the bounty debt next, and will be free and clear of all debt owed in the cryptocoin community. You see.. I am a man of my word and am in the process of paying my debts in the community. There are many people that can vouch for me that I am a trustworthy person, I have done a lot of honest business with happy customers and/or sellers.

Tell me, when will you be paying back Hash Fast customers that you duped into buying hardware from a scam company that never delivered? The only recourse you seem to be providing is an apology. I've provided both an apology AND I am paying people back... I've put in a lot more effort than you have to right my wrongs. Wink Tongue

Furthermore (more in line with the topic of conversation), tell me how your ASIC investments have gone for you thus far. Minus the free mining rigs you got from HashFast for sending customers to their scam?

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August 20, 2014, 04:51:26 PM
 #235

and you know Coinhoarder, any reasonable person can see that HF was totally out of my control.  and the first sentence of my endorsement revealed to everyone that i was being paid.

you, otoh, have complete control of paying off your promises but haven't.  and after all the work those poor guys did designing those beautful logos for you to shit on them.  i actually took pity on one of them and bought one of their designs so all that work wouldn't be for naught.

Once again you fail at reading comprehension, go back and read my last post.

Lol... You obviously haven't done much Bitcoin ASIC investing if you think you can still break even. Eventually people will learn this and Bitcoin mining will become centralized.

All you did was shill for Hash Fast, a scam Bitcoin ASIC company, and spew lies about them so more people would buy their hardware that never came.

That was probably profitable for you, but most people got screwed by them.

yeah, i thought i recognized your scammer name, Coinhoarder:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316370.0

Nice try bro, but I actually pay my debts in this community. Scammers don't repay their debts, therefore I am not a scammer. I have two debts which I am actively paying off. The first is a 30 Bitcoin loan that I owed 32 Bitcoins for, as of a few days ago I have paid 31.5 Bitcoin of the 32 Bitcoins owed. If you don't believe me, here is evidence on the block chain I am actively paying off that debt: https://blockchain.info/address/1MenQ9tJiGHaNwTiFJJu2g9F2qpseWzPMu

After I pay off that debt, I will be paying off the bounty debt next, and will be free and clear of all debt owed in the cryptocoin community. You see.. I am a man of my word and am in the process of paying my debts in the community. There are many people that can vouch for me that I am a trustworthy person, I have done a lot of honest business with happy customers and/or sellers.

Tell me, when will you be paying back Hash Fast customers that you duped into buying hardware from a scam company that never delivered? The only recourse you seem to be providing is an apology. I've provided both an apology AND I am paying people back... I've put in a lot more effort than you have to right my wrongs. Wink Tongue

Furthermore (more in line with the topic of conversation), tell me how your ASIC investments have gone for you thus far. Minus the free mining rigs you got from HashFast for sending customers to their scam?

here's the problem.

your comprehension of what's fair and legal is ridiculous.  just like your claims about POW and POS.  what i did for HF was an endorsement at the beginning of their existence.  i was never part of their incompetence later on.  yes, i made a judgment error in the endorsement.  but that doesn't make me liable to pay back all their customers, both legally and morally.  how would that even be possible and even reasonable?  

your debt obligation, otoh, are your own.  made by you and personally guaranteed by you.  if you are so high and mighty like you claim, why are so many ppl pissed at you, creating a thread about you, and labelling you a scammer?  how about paying those poor guys interest for your late payments made on your own terms?  that was a year ago, btw.
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August 20, 2014, 05:12:11 PM
 #236

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August 20, 2014, 05:14:23 PM
 #237



dickhead Coinhoarder started it.
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August 20, 2014, 05:18:22 PM
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here's the problem.

your comprehension of what's fair and legal is ridiculous.  just like your claims about POW and POS.  what i did for HF was an endorsement at the beginning of their existence.  i was never part of their incompetence later on.  yes, i made a judgment error in the endorsement.  but that doesn't make me liable to pay back all their customers, both legally and morally.  how would that even be possible and even reasonable?  

your debt obligation, otoh, are your own.  made by you and personally guaranteed by you.  if you are so high and mighty like you claim, why are so many ppl pissed at you, creating a thread about you, and labelling you a scammer?  how about paying those poor guys interest for your late payments made on your own terms?  that was a year ago, btw.

Think of me what you will, but I am paying off the debt and could care less what people think of me because of it. I would love to pay off the debt that I owe RIGHT NOW, but unfortunately that isn't financially possible for me. I cant make money appear out of thin air. It was an honest mistake which was balooned by the Bitcoin price hike late last year when it went from $150 to $1200+, and I paid off a lot of my debt when Bitcoin was valued above $800... even $1000 plus dollars. If I would of waited until now for the value to crash, I would have all my debt paid off and some savings as well.

You can say what you want about your Hash Fast situation, but words are easier to come by than money, and I feel like what I am doing... paying people back means a lot more than offering an apology. Sure, you don't owe those people anything, but all you are doing is offering an apology.. it seems pretty weak considering you were the biggest cheer leader for one of the biggest ASIC scams thus far. People lost millions and millions of dollars with Hash Fast, whereas in my situation I only owe people about 5.5 Bitcoins since I have repaid most of the debt. Hash Fast went bankrupt and probably no one is getting paid back.. if they do it will be pennies on the dollar. I am paying people back in full. I think your apologies about the Hash Fast situation would mean a lot more if you actually tried to help any of the victims out a little bit- instead you do nothing but offer an apology and point fingers.

Anyways... thanks for reminding me I needed to update people about my debts and how I am coming along with them. I can assure you everyone will be paid back as soon as possible. You can say what you will about it, but I know that in my heart I meant no wrong, and I am paying everyone back as soon as I can. I stopped caring what people think about me a long time ago when Smoothie was constantly harassing me about this all over every forums on the internet.

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August 20, 2014, 05:30:12 PM
 #239

here's the problem.

your comprehension of what's fair and legal is ridiculous.  just like your claims about POW and POS.  what i did for HF was an endorsement at the beginning of their existence.  i was never part of their incompetence later on.  yes, i made a judgment error in the endorsement.  but that doesn't make me liable to pay back all their customers, both legally and morally.  how would that even be possible and even reasonable?  

your debt obligation, otoh, are your own.  made by you and personally guaranteed by you.  if you are so high and mighty like you claim, why are so many ppl pissed at you, creating a thread about you, and labelling you a scammer?  how about paying those poor guys interest for your late payments made on your own terms?  that was a year ago, btw.

Think of me what you will, but I am paying off the debt and could care less what people think of me because of it. I would love to pay off the debt that I owe RIGHT NOW, but unfortunately that isn't financially possible for me. I cant make money appear out of thin air. It was an honest mistake which was balooned by the Bitcoin price hike late last year when it went from $150 to $1200+, and I paid off a lot of my debt when Bitcoin was valued above $800... even $1000 plus dollars. If I would of waited until now for the value to crash, I would have all my debt paid off and some savings as well.

You can say what you want about your Hash Fast situation, but words are easier to come by than money, and I feel like what I am doing... paying people back means a lot more than offering an apology. Sure, you don't owe those people anything, but all you are doing is offering an apology.. it seems pretty weak considering you were the biggest cheer leader for one of the biggest ASIC scams thus far. People lost millions and millions of dollars with Hash Fast, whereas in my situation I only owe people about 5.5 Bitcoins since I have repaid most of the debt. Hash Fast went bankrupt and probably no one is getting paid back.. if they do it will be pennies on the dollar. I am paying people back in full. I think your apologies about the Hash Fast situation would mean a lot more if you actually tried to help any of the victims out a little bit- instead you do nothing but offer an apology and point fingers.

Anyways... thanks for reminding me I needed to update people about my debts and how I am coming along with them. I can assure you everyone will be paid back as soon as possible. You can say what you will about it, but I know that in my heart I meant no wrong, and I am paying everyone back as soon as I can. I stopped caring what people think about me a long time ago when Smoothie was constantly harassing me about this all over every forums on the internet.

by your logic:

1.  Roger Ver should pay back everyone's losses at mtgox
2.  Andreas Antonopoulos should pay back everyone's losses at Neo & Bee
3.  Tuur Demeester should pay back everyone's losses at Neo & Bee and Cointerra

how many millions should i return to HF customers when i did not make millions? 
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August 20, 2014, 05:37:25 PM
 #240

by your logic:

1.  Roger Ver should pay back everyone's losses at mtgox
2.  Andreas Antonopoulos should pay back everyone's losses at Neo & Bee
3.  Tuur Demeester should pay back everyone's losses at Neo & Bee and Cointerra

how many millions should i return to HF customers when i did not make millions?  

You should at least pay them back what Hash Fast paid you to shill for them IMO, but I guess that is up to you. That is what I would do personally..

Anyways... as I said, I am paying my debt and always had good intentions. Soon I will be cleared of my wrong doings and I know that will happen as soon as financially possible. You can call me a scammer if you like, but scammers do not repay debts- they take the money and run. I guess I am done with this conversation, I didn't mean to derail the thread I apologize, but it was applicable to the conversation.

You have to admit that ASIC scams are another bad thing about PoW. So many people have been scammed because of ASICs and so many people have lost money due to buying unprofitable mining equipment. Many more will lose money due to both of those in the future. This is just another reason why PoS is better than PoW in my opinion. ASIC mining opens up the mining community to scams and unprofitable investments disguised as money making opportunities. Just because people are still buying unprofitable mining equipment does not mean that it is a sustainable practice, it just means that these people haven't learned their lesson yet. I'd venture to say these people will learn eventually that ASIC investing is a losing proposition sooner rather than later. When everyone realizes this PoW mining will become centralized to people with deep pockets and ASIC manufacturers, which will have many negative consequences.

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