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Author Topic: Is PoS dead?  (Read 16932 times)
cypherdoc
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August 20, 2014, 08:15:22 PM
 #261

all the code and rule changes and promises for more.

So undefined...

Which "code and rule" changes? Which promises exactly?

from an investor's standpoint, i wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole.

That's your freedom of choice and perfectly fine, but why would anyone care? Why keep saying this, are you that important?

you really do need to be spoon fed, don't you?  i'll leave it to you to read about all the coming changes.

nice ad hominem about self importance.
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August 20, 2014, 08:19:25 PM
 #262

you really do need to be spoon fed, don't you?  i'll leave it to you to read about all the coming changes.

No, your undefined claims are empty words hence require more detail for me to take you seriously -- which is why, it seems like, I unfortunately wasted my time asking you for these details.

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cypherdoc
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August 20, 2014, 08:21:36 PM
 #263

The incentivized PoW may be a feature but what happens when it stops.  You can't have both cheap and secure transactions.  Currently 1% worth of asics are securing 100% of bitcoin and that's with block reward being 50 times higher then transaction fees.  There's currently a feedback loop where fiat/wealth is being sucked into the bitcoin system through the appearance of profitability through mining.  It may very well continue for many years to come. But how do you see this change after next halving or how about the halving after that cypher?

with time, the tx fees should increase substantially either thru:

1.  if Bitcoin becomes world reserve currency- smaller # large fees btwn nations and CB's
2.  if Bitcoin becomes more of a transactional currency- larger #small fees from individuals

these should replace the block reward fees and perhaps even become larger in value if Bitcoin gets real big.  that is what the large mines see going forward; a smooth transition in the fee structure that could even increase.  and they want to be there as it happens.
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August 20, 2014, 08:22:50 PM
 #264

you really do need to be spoon fed, don't you?  i'll leave it to you to read about all the coming changes.

No, your undefined claims are empty words hence require more detail for me to take you seriously -- which is why I unfortunately wasted my time asking you for the details that you fail to provide.

i can see that you're invested in POS.  that's ok.
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August 20, 2014, 08:25:37 PM
 #265

you really do need to be spoon fed, don't you?  i'll leave it to you to read about all the coming changes.

No, your undefined claims are empty words hence require more detail for me to take you seriously -- which is why I unfortunately wasted my time asking you for the details that you fail to provide.

i can see that you're invested in POS.  that's ok.

Just as much as I'm invested in POW. Don't see how that makes a different in this discussion though. You tend to get personal once further elaboration of undefined claims is required or arguments have run out, why is this?

Your point is well understood, PoW are the greatest in your point of view.

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August 20, 2014, 08:26:30 PM
 #266

you really do need to be spoon fed, don't you?  i'll leave it to you to read about all the coming changes.

No, your undefined claims are empty words hence require more detail for me to take you seriously -- which is why I unfortunately wasted my time asking you for the details that you fail to provide.

i can see that you're invested in POS.  that's ok.

Just as much as I'm invested in POW. Don't see how that makes a different in this discussion though. You tend to get personal once further elaboration of undefined claims is required or arguments have run out, why is this?

do you deny that there haven't been many changes upcoming to NXT that have been promised?
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August 20, 2014, 08:31:26 PM
 #267

do you deny that there haven't been many changes upcoming to NXT that have been promised?

NXT is under constant development and has been introducing exciting features over the course of time. Some of these features have been completed and are implemented in the current release, such as its Arbitrary Messaging, Alias Function, Account Leasing, Decentralized Asset Exchange and Marketplace. Other features are in development, such as e.g. Transparent Forging and Smart Contracts.  

There is complete transparency over what is being worked on and anyone can contribute, which is why I am so puzzled what exactly seems to be confusing you. What do you expect?  Do you dislike technological advancement of cryptocurrency?

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August 20, 2014, 08:39:18 PM
 #268

do you deny that there haven't been many changes upcoming to NXT that have been promised?

NXT is under constant development and has been introducing exciting features over the course of time. Some of these features have been completed and are implemented in the current release, such as its Arbitrary Messaging, Alias Function, Account Leasing, Decentralized Asset Exchange and Marketplace. Other features are in development, such as the completion of Transparent Forging and Smart Contracts.  

There is complete transparency over what is being worked on and anyone can contribute, which is why I am so puzzled what exactly seems to be confusing you. What do you expect?  Do you dislike technological advancement of cryptocurrency?

thank you for clarifying that. 

my only point is that it is confusing from my standpoint (yes, i am personalizing this purposely so as not to generalize to all investors) to put money into something that is so fluid.  i freely admit, that's my opinion.  not everyone will agree with me.  feel free to ignore as it should be clear i am not a fan of POS to begin with.
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August 20, 2014, 08:42:08 PM
 #269

my only point is that it is confusing from my standpoint (yes, i am personalizing this purposely so as not to generalize to all investors) to put money into something that is so fluid.  i freely admit, that's my opinion.  not everyone will agree with me.  feel free to ignore as it should be clear i am not a fan of POS to begin with.

I understand your position.

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August 20, 2014, 09:07:02 PM
 #270

btw, HF didn't start off being a scam, i can assure you.  there's a case to be made they didn't even end up being a scam.  they were incompetent's.

I feel like too often people ignore Hanlon's razor:
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Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
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August 20, 2014, 09:07:07 PM
 #271

I think so.
The idea of PoS is everyone holding their coins so they can generate new coin.
Now, what if everyone holding their coins? there would be no market activity, then the would be delist from market.
Delist = dead


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August 20, 2014, 09:10:18 PM
 #272

i actually do believe POW is better than POS.  i guess that makes me ignorant.  otoh, i am articulating the reasons why i think so.  i suggest you consider them.

It seems like you do believe that, I can tell, and you are certainly entitled to your own opinion. That isn't what I was talking about when referring to feigning ignorance. It is that you try to push your opinion on everyone else as if it is fact and ignore the fact that PoW has vulnerabilities also. You act as if it's impossible to attack a PoW coin, which is quite a stretch of the truth. Sure, it is unlikely, but it is far from impossible.

The same applies with PoS, it is unlikely someone would be able to attack it, but it is far from impossible. There are two sides to the debate, each side has valid arguments, but it is your reluctance to admit that your side of the debate has some holes in it that makes you ignorant (or feigning ignorance.) I can admit PoS has flaws, you seem to be having a hard time admitting that PoW has flaws as well.

By the way.. your offer of me to go root ghash.io or discus fish and 51% attack Bitcoin... I extend the same offer to you. Go attack a PoS coin using one of the known vulnerabilities and report back to me......

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August 20, 2014, 09:33:43 PM
 #273

i actually do believe POW is better than POS.  i guess that makes me ignorant.  otoh, i am articulating the reasons why i think so.  i suggest you consider them.

It seems like you do believe that, I can tell, and you are certainly entitled to your own opinion. That isn't what I was talking about when referring to feigning ignorance. It is that you try to push your opinion on everyone else as if it is fact and ignore the fact that PoW has vulnerabilities also. You act as if it's impossible to attack a PoW coin, which is quite a stretch of the truth. Sure, it is unlikely, but it is far from impossible.

The same applies with PoS, it is unlikely someone would be able to attack it, but it is far from impossible. There are two sides to the debate, each side has valid arguments, but it is your reluctance to admit that your side of the debate has some holes in it that makes you ignorant (or feigning ignorance.) I can admit PoS has flaws, you seem to be having a hard time admitting that PoW has flaws as well.

By the way.. your offer of me to go root ghash.io or discus fish and 51% attack Bitcoin... I extend the same offer to you. Go attack a PoS coin using one of the known vulnerabilities and report back to me......

the difference being it wouldn't even be worth my time.  for you, however, it would be.

in other words, POW has nothing to prove, POS does.
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August 20, 2014, 10:08:24 PM
 #274

the difference being it wouldn't even be worth my time.  for you, however, it would be.

in other words, POW has nothing to prove, POS does.

No, it would not be worth my time. I don't own any crypto currencies at the moment, and am an unbiased observer giving his honest opinion. I'm not sure you are quite so impartial, whether it is intentional or not. It definitely would not be worth the time, money, and effort just to prove you wrong. I am here discussing and debating crypto currencies because they fascinate me, I think they are generally a great idea, and I would like to see control of the money supply taken away from the government as they have proven themselves incompetent by printing money left and right.

"PoW has nothing to prove, PoS does"

More ignorance.. you do not know what will happen in the future, you can only speculate, and Bitcoin/PoW is still a relatively new technology. Windows XP has been out since 2001 and people are still discovering vulnerabilities. Even if more vulnerabilities aren't discovered, which is highly unlikely due to history and statistics, you are speculating on how ASIC mining will play out. My prediction is not so hunky dory as yours.

Both PoW and PoS technologies are unproven at this point.

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August 20, 2014, 11:04:13 PM
 #275

dickhead Coinhoarder started it.

Actually, you did with you Ad hominem attack.

If you can't make an argument to support your claims then attacking the other persons character is a time honored and childish move that unfortunately for you we here are intelligent enough to spot.

You lose by default.

lol.  keep your blinders on.

HE was the one who brought up unrelated HF allegations out of the blue.  i simply responded.

and in case you haven't noticed, i've been posting boatloads of key arguments about why i don't like POS.  you, otoh, would simply like to ignore them with no quality responses on your part.

I have no opinion on POS and have been reading on it since Nobl decided to switch over. I am still in the air about it and consider all arguments. I am not biased as you think. I have just pointed out a few things as this debate has gone on. I still don't know whether I trust POS or not. I would have preferred Nobl went in a completely different direction than pos but I'm just happy they did something as opposed to just watching ASIC's destroy them.

Also I'm not sure why people seem to think you have to support one and hate the other? They don't seem diametrically opposed to me.

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cypherdoc
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August 20, 2014, 11:18:50 PM
 #276

the difference being it wouldn't even be worth my time.  for you, however, it would be.

in other words, POW has nothing to prove, POS does.

No, it would not be worth my time. I don't own any crypto currencies at the moment, and am an unbiased observer giving his honest opinion. I'm not sure you are quite so impartial, whether it is intentional or not. It definitely would not be worth the time, money, and effort just to prove you wrong. I am here discussing and debating crypto currencies because they fascinate me, I think they are generally a great idea, and I would like to see control of the money supply taken away from the government as they have proven themselves incompetent by printing money left and right.

"PoW has nothing to prove, PoS does"

More ignorance.. you do not know what will happen in the future, you can only speculate, and Bitcoin/PoW is still a relatively new technology. Windows XP has been out since 2001 and people are still discovering vulnerabilities. Even if more vulnerabilities aren't discovered, which is highly unlikely due to history and statistics, you are speculating on how ASIC mining will play out. My prediction is not so hunky dory as yours.

Both PoW and PoS technologies are unproven at this point.

further up the thread, you were the one who said something to the effect that if someone gave you enough money you could easily destroy Bitcoin in about a few seconds, or something braggadocio like that.  that's more than just a little hubris here.  i never said something like that about POS.  you are the one who keeps insisting it's a "fact" that POW can be destroyed.  i never said something so definitive like that either.

i find it also interesting about the circumstances of your scammer debacle.  you borrowed Bitcoin.  and in 2013 before the huge run up.  someone who truly understands Bitcoin would never do such a foolish thing.  those of us who do understand it know that it's a deflationary currency that's likely to ramp in value.  part of that understanding is that it's a secure technology.  no wonder you got trapped in a debt you couldn't pay back.  now stop and think for a moment; a rational person would try to learn from a major error like that. like what went wrong. 

it doesn't sound like you have.
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August 20, 2014, 11:26:28 PM
 #277

...

i find it also interesting about the circumstances of your scammer debacle.  you borrowed Bitcoin.  and in 2013 before the huge run up.  someone who truly understands Bitcoin would never do such a foolish thing.  those of us who do understand it know that it's a deflationary currency that's likely to ramp in value.  part of that understanding is that it's a secure technology.  no wonder you got trapped in a debt you couldn't pay back.  now stop and think for a moment; a rational person would try to learn from a major error like that.  it doesn't sound like you have.

The fate of the naked XBT shorts and when, if ever, will they learn? There are some spectacular lessons here: Pirateat40 comes to mind was it 500,000 XBT or 700,000 XBT? Then more recently there is MTGox something in the neighbourhood of 600,000 XBT?

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
CoinHoarder
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August 20, 2014, 11:55:57 PM
 #278

further up the thread, you were the one who said something to the effect that if someone gave you enough money you could easily destroy Bitcoin in about a few seconds, or something braggadocio like that.  that's more than just a little hubris here.  i never said something like that about POS.  you are the one who keeps insisting it's a "fact" that POW can be destroyed.  i never said something so definitive like that either.

It is a fact that it is possible any PoW coin can be destroyed, just as it is a fact and PoS coin can be destroyed. If someone has enough time, money, reason, and gives enough effort it can be done much easier than you would like to admit. Give me a billion dollars and I will show you.

i find it also interesting about the circumstances of your scammer debacle.  you borrowed Bitcoin.  and in 2013 before the huge run up.  someone who truly understands Bitcoin would never do such a foolish thing.  those of us who do understand it know that it's a deflationary currency that's likely to ramp in value.  part of that understanding is that it's a secure technology.  no wonder you got trapped in a debt you couldn't pay back.  now stop and think for a moment; a rational person would try to learn from a major error like that. like what went wrong.

it doesn't sound like you have.
I did learn a lesson. Never get a loan denominated in Bitcoins, as the value fluctuates wildly and it can lead to never being able to pay back the loan. Don't act like you know what is going on inside my head in regards to that, and talk out of your ass when you say "I didn't learn a lesson." Are you psychic?

I believed Bitcoin would rise in value. Ask anyone that knows me irl. I just didn't think it would rise in value as fast as it did. It went from $150 to $1200 in 4 months. I think just about everyone did not expect such a huge run up in price that quickly. That would have pretty much been best case scenario predictions in August. If it were so easy to tell that it would do that, then a lot more people would have bet huge... only a handful of people did that. Hindsight is 20/20.

Anyways.. enough about me. I mentioned your involvement with Hash Fast because it was applicable to the debate... poW opens people up to get scammed by ASIC manufacturers. It seems you want to talk about our personal issues, so how much did you get paid out of customer funds to shill for Hash Fast? How many free mining rigs did they give you which were paid for out of customer funds?

cypherdoc
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August 21, 2014, 12:15:52 AM
 #279

further up the thread, you were the one who said something to the effect that if someone gave you enough money you could easily destroy Bitcoin in about a few seconds, or something braggadocio like that.  that's more than just a little hubris here.  i never said something like that about POS.  you are the one who keeps insisting it's a "fact" that POW can be destroyed.  i never said something so definitive like that either.

It is a fact that it is possible any PoW coin can be destroyed, just as it is a fact and PoS coin can be destroyed. If someone has enough time, money, reason, and gives enough effort it can be done much easier than you would like to admit. Give me a billion dollars and I will show you.

i find it also interesting about the circumstances of your scammer debacle.  you borrowed Bitcoin.  and in 2013 before the huge run up.  someone who truly understands Bitcoin would never do such a foolish thing.  those of us who do understand it know that it's a deflationary currency that's likely to ramp in value.  part of that understanding is that it's a secure technology.  no wonder you got trapped in a debt you couldn't pay back.  now stop and think for a moment; a rational person would try to learn from a major error like that. like what went wrong.

it doesn't sound like you have.
I did learn a lesson. Never get a loan denominated in Bitcoins, as the value fluctuates wildly and it can lead to never being able to pay back the loan. Don't act like you know what is going on inside my head in regards to that, and talk out of your ass when you say "I didn't learn a lesson." Are you psychic?

I believed Bitcoin would rise in value. Ask anyone that knows me irl. I just didn't think it would rise in value as fast as it did. It went from $150 to $1200 in 4 months. I think just about everyone did not expect such a huge run up in price that quickly. That would have pretty much been best case scenario predictions in August. If it were so easy to tell that it would do that, then a lot more people would have bet huge... only a handful of people did that. Hindsight is 20/20.

Anyways.. enough about me. I mentioned your involvement with Hash Fast because it was applicable to the debate... poW opens people up to get scammed by ASIC manufacturers. It seems you want to talk about our personal issues, so how much did you get paid out of customer funds to shill for Hash Fast? How many free mining rigs did they give you which were paid for out of customer funds?

i can't and won't talk about that b/c there are legal issues involved.

no, you bring that personal shit up b/c you still don't understand Bitcoin and you're using all sorts of BS arguments to defend your position as flawed as it may be.  everyone knows it's possible POW might be hacked.  but it's like talking about the possibility of a key collision.  it's highly unlikely at this point.  you continue to ignore the fact that $6-7 billion and at times more has just been sitting their on the blockchain begging to be stolen.  why hasn't it happened?  you say "they don't want to".  that's ridiculous.  sure they do. look at all the stumbling over themselves the gubmint has done to try and block Bitcoin.  look at the Bitlicense proposals.  no, gubmints like to do the easy things, like regulate or print money.  they don't like to work.  hmmm, funny, just like POS ppl. 

and just which gubmint will do the attack?  the US?  what about China or Russia?  maybe they're building secret mines themselves so as to overthrow the USD and protect Bitcoin.  you don't know.  gubmints won't collude to destroy Bitcoin; there's too much opportunity for them to use it themselves for financial gain.
RobFordWotWot
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August 21, 2014, 12:19:21 AM
 #280

Are the proof of stake coins still connecting to their networks?

Yes?

Then they're not dead.

Horses in midstream.
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