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Author Topic: Is PoS dead?  (Read 16932 times)
cypherdoc
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August 20, 2014, 05:42:17 PM
 #241

by your logic:

1.  Roger Ver should pay back everyone's losses at mtgox
2.  Andreas Antonopoulos should pay back everyone's losses at Neo & Bee
3.  Tuur Demeester should pay back everyone's losses at Neo & Bee and Cointerra

how many millions should i return to HF customers when i did not make millions?  

You should at least pay them back what Hash Fast paid you to shill for them IMO, but I guess that is up to you. That is what I would do personally..

Anyways... as I said, I am paying my debt and always had good intentions. Soon I will be cleared of my wrong doings and I know that will happen as soon as financially possible. You can call me a scammer if you like, but scammers do not repay debts- they take it and run.

I guess I am done with this conversation, I didn't mean to derail the thread I apologize, but it was applicable to the conversation you have to admit that ASIC scams are another bad thing about PoW. So many people have been scammed because of ASICs and so many people have lost money due to buying unprofitable mining equipment. Many more will lose money due to both of those in the future. This is just another reason why PoS is better than PoW in my opinion. ASIC mining opens up the mining community to scams and unprofitable investments disguised as money making opportunities. Just because people are still buying unprofitable mining equipment does not mean that it is sustainable, it just means that these people haven't learned their lesson yet. I'd venture to say these people will learn eventually that ASIC investing is a losing proposition sooner rather than later.

but just like many ppl try to tie Bitcoin to drugs, you are trying to tie the asic pre order mining scams to POW.  that's ridiculous.

btw, HF didn't start off being a scam, i can assure you.  there's a case to be made they didn't even end up being a scam.  they were incompetent's.
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August 20, 2014, 05:45:24 PM
 #242

but just like many ppl try to tie Bitcoin to drugs, you are trying to tie the asic pre order mining scams to POW.  that's ridiculous.

btw, HF didn't start off being a scam, i can assure you.  there's a case to be made they didn't even end up being a scam.  they were incompetent's.

It's not ridiculous, it's just a fact.

PoW opens people up to getting scammed by mining hardware manufacturers because they (or eventually with all PoW algos) will need to buy specialized hardware to compete with other miners.

PoS solves this problem as it doesn't require mining hardware in the first place.

Drugs are a whole different conversation. As long as money exists (FIAT, PoW, or PoS), people will use it to buy drugs. However, crypto currencies can be made to not require mining hardware by using PoW alternatives, which solves the problem of people getting scammed by shady hardware manufacturers.

I am all for the improving crypto currencies because they align with my libertarian beliefs, and I feel like PoS is a step in the right direction because it solves a lot of issues with PoW coins. Sure, it is not perfect, but it I feel it is a step in the right direction nonetheless.

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August 20, 2014, 06:01:54 PM
 #243

but just like many ppl try to tie Bitcoin to drugs, you are trying to tie the asic pre order mining scams to POW.  that's ridiculous.

btw, HF didn't start off being a scam, i can assure you.  there's a case to be made they didn't even end up being a scam.  they were incompetent's.

It's not ridiculous, it's just a fact.
it's a fact in your own mind.  why else would we be having this debate if it was truly a fact?

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PoW opens people up to getting scammed by mining hardware manufacturers because they (or eventually with all PoW algos) will need to buy specialized hardware to compete with other miners.

PoS solves this problem as it doesn't require mining hardware in the first place.

that is simply an educational and early adopter issue.  in fact, pre-orders have become a thing of the past as ppl have learned not to trust these potential scams.  as mining hardware becomes commoditized by the likes of major hardware corps, prices will come down, and all the scams will disappear.  it's already happening.

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Drugs are a whole different conversation. As long as money exists (FIAT, PoW, or PoS), people will use it to buy drugs. However, crypto currencies can be made to not require mining hardware by using PoW alternatives, which solves the problem of people getting scammed by shady hardware manufacturers.

I am all for the improving crypto currencies because they align with my libertarian beliefs, and I feel like PoS is a step in the right direction because it solves a lot of issues with PoW coins. Sure, it is not perfect, but it I feel it is a step in the right direction nonetheless.

b/c POS involves no work, it is easier to scam.  all the failed POS systems are evidence of this.  in fact, there are no successful POS systems in place today.  by tying the mining to a real world cost, electricity, it is much harder to scam.  POS's have everything to prove unlike the ultimate POW system, Bitcoin.
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August 20, 2014, 06:09:05 PM
 #244

The reason for the scams is because it's not really PoW it's incentivized PoW.  Btw the next scam wave is cloud mining.  These scams won't stop because current mining is more like bitcoin investing/annuity and that's the direct result of the way the current bitcoin PoW works.
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August 20, 2014, 06:24:15 PM
 #245

I see the reasoning behind the skepticism of PoS. All in all, a pure PoS does solve some issues PoW has (such as 51% attacks). On the other hand, PoS does help whales snowball. Putting my own opinions aside, I feel that PoS is far from dead, people love it and it helps equal the playing field for investors and miners a little bit.

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August 20, 2014, 06:29:04 PM
 #246

The reason for the scams is because it's not really PoW it's incentivized PoW.  Btw the next scam wave is cloud mining.  These scams won't stop because current mining is more like bitcoin investing/annuity and that's the direct result of the way the current bitcoin PoW works.

you've got it backwards.

the reason POW is successful is because of the economic incentives.  that's a feature, not a bug.  w/o it, ppl wouldn't be so motivated or driven to participate for the first time in their lives in a system they perceive to be fair.  as with Bitcoin itself, of course scammers will be attracted to mining as well.  it's inevitable.  but that doesn't discredit the entire concept.  and the scams will be mitigated with education and stricter market forces.  we're already seeing this.  don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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August 20, 2014, 06:35:35 PM
 #247

the reason POW is successful is because of the incentives.

The only successful PoW is Bitcoin, and only because it has a few years first mover advantage, and habituation and herd mentality keep its market cap above others. But that's not forever.
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August 20, 2014, 06:43:05 PM
 #248

the reason POW is successful is because of the incentives.

The only successful PoW is Bitcoin, and only because it has a few years first mover advantage, and habituation and herd mentality keep its market cap above others. But that's not forever.

it could be forever.  don't discount the power of the network effect or first mover advantage.  there are 0 signs of things changing, so the burden of proof is on you.

any POS would have to be SUPER better to make ppl switch over.  and i don't think that's even possible unless a totally new technology is invented.  like one w/o a blockchain or something too hard to imagine.

what's with all these changes being announced in NXT anyways?  it's a constantly moving target/project.  btw, that's bad.  why?  b/c long term investors need to know exactly what they're investing in.  they want to know the rules ahead of time.  investors, like myself, hate uncertainty and the alts/POS/NXT/NEM are great examples of chameleons.  you may call it "innovation" or "evolving".  i call it confusion.
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August 20, 2014, 06:48:05 PM
 #249

The reason for the scams is because it's not really PoW it's incentivized PoW.  Btw the next scam wave is cloud mining.  These scams won't stop because current mining is more like bitcoin investing/annuity and that's the direct result of the way the current bitcoin PoW works.

Exactly, I agree and that's the point I am trying to make.

but just like many ppl try to tie Bitcoin to drugs, you are trying to tie the asic pre order mining scams to POW.  that's ridiculous.

btw, HF didn't start off being a scam, i can assure you.  there's a case to be made they didn't even end up being a scam.  they were incompetent's.

It's not ridiculous, it's just a fact.
it's a fact in your own mind.  why else would we be having this debate if it was truly a fact?

This isn't a debate, it is you feigning ignorance. I refuse to believe you are this stupid. Both PoW and PoS each have their flaws, and none is "better" or "worse" than the other. PoW is better than PoS in some areas, and PoS is better than PoW in some areas. It is a two way road, but you are acting as if it is a one way road.

PoW opens people up to getting scammed by mining hardware manufacturers because they (or eventually with all PoW algos) will need to buy specialized hardware to compete with other miners.

PoS solves this problem as it doesn't require mining hardware in the first place.

that is simply an educational and early adopter issue.  in fact, pre-orders have become a thing of the past as ppl have learned not to trust these potential scams.  as mining hardware becomes commoditized by the likes of major hardware corps, prices will come down, and all the scams will disappear.  it's already happening.

Preorders are becoming a thing of the past, but that is only one way ASIC manufacturers and/or distributors are scamming their customers. They have moved on to doing it in a more upfront way by selling the mining equipment at a price that will never break even. It may not be a scam, in the sense of the true meaning of the word scam, but it is a dishonest shady business to say the least.

A lot of companies advertise in stock products only to delay those as well, so the preorder-type scams still exist, only in a different form.

Drugs are a whole different conversation. As long as money exists (FIAT, PoW, or PoS), people will use it to buy drugs. However, crypto currencies can be made to not require mining hardware by using PoW alternatives, which solves the problem of people getting scammed by shady hardware manufacturers.

I am all for the improving crypto currencies because they align with my libertarian beliefs, and I feel like PoS is a step in the right direction because it solves a lot of issues with PoW coins. Sure, it is not perfect, but it I feel it is a step in the right direction nonetheless.

b/c POS involves no work, it is easier to scam.
It is "easier" to scam, yet no one has been able to do it yet. As market caps grow and the crypto currencies are more evenly distributed it will become even more unlikely that it will happen.

all the failed POS systems are evidence of this.

Name one PoS crypto currency that has been attacked through the same avenues that PoW evangelists claim to be so insecure. To my knowledge there is not a single one. There are only cases of services/people getting hacked which happens out of incompetence rather than PoS being insecure. PoW coins suffer from the same vulnerabilities that PoS coins have suffered thus far, both of which stem from incompetence. Not a flawed protocol.

in fact, there are no successful POS systems in place today.
There are a few very successful PoS system in place... Nxt, Bitshares, and Blackcoin... all of which have market caps above 4.7 million dollars.

I think what you mean are there are no invulnerable PoS implementations in place today. The same could be same for PoW implementations though, which is where you are wrong in claiming PoW is so much better than PoS. They both have vulnerabilities. Bitcoin has a long list of known vulnerabilities as well: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses

by tying the mining to a real world cost, electricity, it is much harder to scam.  

You have somewhat of a point here, however to build a mining farm would be the most inefficient way of attacking the Bitcoin network. It can be done many other ways that would be cheaper. Rooting a large mining pool would probably be the cheapest way, and you could pay someone to do that for much cheaper than you could buy 51% of the available currency in the larger PoS crypto currencies.

Along with that possible avenue, as I mentioned, there are many other avenues you could take: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses

POS's have everything to prove unlike the ultimate POW system, Bitcoin.
BOTH PoW and PoS are unproven thus far. PoW is not fully played out yet, as ASICs were only available a year and a half ago. It is my belief that all the profit of PoW mining will be sucked out by ASIC manufacturers and people with deep pockets, that the Bitcoin network will become more and more centralized as time goes on. With this centralization can lead to many bad things, such as the small mining conglomerate deciding they want to be paid more for transaction fees or reversing a transaction when they are hacked at some point in time. That is one of the things PoS is getting a lot of heat for lately, but it could just as easily happen to Bitcoin (or other PoW coins), especially as mining becomes more centralized.

It could happen today if Ghash.io or discus fish are rooted. Someone with 30% of Bitcoin's hash rate has something like a 60% chance of being able to reverse a transaction with only 1 confirmation. IT is actually quite scary how easily a 51% attack could be performed, and even though it is called a 51% attack... you don't need anywhere close to 51% of the network's computing power to do it. See page 10: https://bitcoil.co.il/Doublespend.pdf

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August 20, 2014, 06:48:55 PM
 #250

the burden of proof is on you.

No, sorry, it's your money that is at risk. You have to do all the leg work by yourself and for yourself, not someone else Smiley
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August 20, 2014, 07:21:18 PM
 #251

dickhead Coinhoarder started it.

Actually, you did with you Ad hominem attack.

If you can't make an argument to support your claims then attacking the other persons character is a time honored and childish move that unfortunately for you we here are intelligent enough to spot.

You lose by default.

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August 20, 2014, 07:39:13 PM
 #252

what's with all these changes being announced in NXT anyways?  it's a constantly moving target/project.  btw, that's bad.  why?  b/c long term investors need to know exactly what they're investing in.  they want to know the rules ahead of time.  investors, like myself, hate uncertainty and the alts/POS/NXT/NEM are great examples of chameleons.  you may call it "innovation" or "evolving".  i call it confusion.

out of curiosity, what exactly are you confused with? its decentralized asset exchange? its marketplace?

what is it that's so hard to grasp?

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August 20, 2014, 07:43:05 PM
 #253

The reason for the scams is because it's not really PoW it's incentivized PoW.  Btw the next scam wave is cloud mining.  These scams won't stop because current mining is more like bitcoin investing/annuity and that's the direct result of the way the current bitcoin PoW works.

Exactly, I agree and that's the point I am trying to make.

but just like many ppl try to tie Bitcoin to drugs, you are trying to tie the asic pre order mining scams to POW.  that's ridiculous.

btw, HF didn't start off being a scam, i can assure you.  there's a case to be made they didn't even end up being a scam.  they were incompetent's.

It's not ridiculous, it's just a fact.
it's a fact in your own mind.  why else would we be having this debate if it was truly a fact?

This isn't a debate, it is you feigning ignorance. I refuse to believe you are this stupid. Both PoW and PoS each have their flaws, and none is "better" or "worse" than the other. PoW is better than PoS in some areas, and PoS is better than PoW in some areas. It is a two way road, but you are acting as if it is a one way road.
i actually do believe POW is better than POS.  i guess that makes me ignorant.  otoh, i am articulating the reasons why i think so.  i suggest you consider them.
Quote

PoW opens people up to getting scammed by mining hardware manufacturers because they (or eventually with all PoW algos) will need to buy specialized hardware to compete with other miners.

PoS solves this problem as it doesn't require mining hardware in the first place.

it's not a problem.  it's part of an evolution.  of course there are scam companies at the beginning of any industry.  especially since we're talking about a new system of money.  like i said, they will be rooted out.  it's not a long term issue.
Quote

that is simply an educational and early adopter issue.  in fact, pre-orders have become a thing of the past as ppl have learned not to trust these potential scams.  as mining hardware becomes commoditized by the likes of major hardware corps, prices will come down, and all the scams will disappear.  it's already happening.

Preorders are becoming a thing of the past, but that is only one way ASIC manufacturers and/or distributors are scamming their customers. They have moved on to doing it in a more upfront way by selling the mining equipment at a price that will never break even. It may not be a scam, in the sense of the true meaning of the word scam, but it is a dishonest shady business to say the least.

A lot of companies advertise in stock products only to delay those as well, so the preorder-type scams still exist, only in a different form.

Drugs are a whole different conversation. As long as money exists (FIAT, PoW, or PoS), people will use it to buy drugs. However, crypto currencies can be made to not require mining hardware by using PoW alternatives, which solves the problem of people getting scammed by shady hardware manufacturers.

I am all for the improving crypto currencies because they align with my libertarian beliefs, and I feel like PoS is a step in the right direction because it solves a lot of issues with PoW coins. Sure, it is not perfect, but it I feel it is a step in the right direction nonetheless.

b/c POS involves no work, it is easier to scam.
It is "easier" to scam, yet no one has been able to do it yet. As market caps grow and the crypto currencies are more evenly distributed it will become even more unlikely that it will happen.

all the failed POS systems are evidence of this.

Name one PoS crypto currency that has been attacked through the same avenues that PoW evangelists claim to be so insecure. To my knowledge there is not a single one. There are only cases of services/people getting hacked which happens out of incompetence rather than PoS being insecure. PoW coins suffer from the same vulnerabilities that PoS coins have suffered thus far, both of which stem from incompetence. Not a flawed protocol.

i didn't say a POS got attacked and failed.  i was referring to ones that have failed.
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in fact, there are no successful POS systems in place today.
There are a few very successful PoS system in place... Nxt, Bitshares, and Blackcoin... all of which have market caps above 4.7 million dollars.

I think what you mean are there are no invulnerable PoS implementations in place today. The same could be same for PoW implementations though, which is where you are wrong in claiming PoW is so much better than PoS. They both have vulnerabilities. Bitcoin has a long list of known vulnerabilities as well: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses

i don't consider those successes yet.  that's a pitifully small amount of capitalization and the user base is essentially non-existent
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by tying the mining to a real world cost, electricity, it is much harder to scam.  

You have somewhat of a point here, however to build a mining farm would be the most inefficient way of attacking the Bitcoin network. It can be done many other ways that would be cheaper. Rooting a large mining pool would probably be the cheapest way, and you could pay someone to do that for much cheaper than you could buy 51% of the available currency in the larger PoS crypto currencies.

Along with that possible avenue, as I mentioned, there are many other avenues you could take: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses

then you, and i mean you, should root the pools to prove your point.  it would be a first altho i am quite sure ppl have already tried to do it.  i will gladly admit i'm wrong if you destroy Bitcoin as a result.  Roll Eyes
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POS's have everything to prove unlike the ultimate POW system, Bitcoin.
BOTH PoW and PoS are unproven thus far. PoW is not fully played out yet, as ASICs were only available a year and a half ago. It is my belief that all the profit of PoW mining will be sucked out by ASIC manufacturers and people with deep pockets, that the Bitcoin network will become more and more centralized as time goes on. With this centralization can lead to many bad things, such as the small mining conglomerate deciding they want to be paid more for transaction fees or reversing a transaction when they are hacked at some point in time. That is one of the things PoS is getting a lot of heat for lately, but it could just as easily happen to Bitcoin (or other PoW coins), especially as mining becomes more centralized.

It could happen today if Ghash.io or discus fish are rooted. Someone with 30% of Bitcoin's hash rate has something like a 60% chance of being able to reverse a transaction with only 1 confirmation. IT is actually quite scary how easily a 51% attack could be performed, and even though it is called a 51% attack... you don't need anywhere close to 51% of the network's computing power to do it. See page 10: https://bitcoil.co.il/Doublespend.pdf

the evolution of mining hardware will continue apace and it is a good thing.  it will make Bitcoin stronger and more of a moving/expensive target for potential attackers.  looking at the mining pool chart i posted above, there is nothing to indicate more centralization about the distribution today than there ever was before back when we were cpu or gpu mining.  i insist that there is a intimidating game theory going on here that most skeptics like you don't understand.

that wiki reference at it's worst mentions weaknesses that "might" be present, not are.  as for Meni, well, he's been arguing this forever.  yet Bitcoin grinds onwards and upwards.
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August 20, 2014, 07:51:43 PM
 #254

wow, ugly post lost inside a sea of comment.  here's what i wanted to say in response to one of your comments:

Quote from: CoinHoarder on Today at 09:45:24 AM:
PoW opens people up to getting scammed by mining hardware manufacturers because they (or eventually with all PoW algos) will need to    buy specialized hardware to compete with other miners.
PoS solves this problem as it doesn't require mining hardware in the first place.


it's not a problem.  it's part of an evolution.  of course there are scam companies at the beginning of any industry.  especially since we're talking about a new system of money.  like i said, they will be rooted out.  it's not a long term issue.
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August 20, 2014, 07:53:02 PM
 #255

what's with all these changes being announced in NXT anyways?  it's a constantly moving target/project.  btw, that's bad.  why?  b/c long term investors need to know exactly what they're investing in.  they want to know the rules ahead of time.  investors, like myself, hate uncertainty and the alts/POS/NXT/NEM are great examples of chameleons.  you may call it "innovation" or "evolving".  i call it confusion.

out of curiosity, what exactly are you confused with? its decentralized asset exchange? its marketplace?

what is it that's so hard to grasp?

confusion on the part of NXT devs and it's community.  i'm not confused about anything.  it's clear to me that i'd never invest in such fickleness.
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August 20, 2014, 07:55:49 PM
 #256

dickhead Coinhoarder started it.

Actually, you did with you Ad hominem attack.

If you can't make an argument to support your claims then attacking the other persons character is a time honored and childish move that unfortunately for you we here are intelligent enough to spot.

You lose by default.

lol.  keep your blinders on.

HE was the one who brought up unrelated HF allegations out of the blue.  i simply responded.

and in case you haven't noticed, i've been posting boatloads of key arguments about why i don't like POS.  you, otoh, would simply like to ignore them with no quality responses on your part.
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August 20, 2014, 07:56:22 PM
 #257

what's with all these changes being announced in NXT anyways?  it's a constantly moving target/project.  btw, that's bad.  why?  b/c long term investors need to know exactly what they're investing in.  they want to know the rules ahead of time.  investors, like myself, hate uncertainty and the alts/POS/NXT/NEM are great examples of chameleons.  you may call it "innovation" or "evolving".  i call it confusion.

out of curiosity, what exactly are you confused with? its decentralized asset exchange? its marketplace?

what is it that's so hard to grasp?

confusion on the part of NXT devs and it's community.  i'm not confused about anything.  it's clear to me that i'd never invest in such fickleness.

Those are empty words.
"confusion on the part of NXT devs and it's community" -- what exactly?
"fickleness" -- where exactly?

BTW no one asked you to invest. Nobody stops you from being a PoW hardliner.

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August 20, 2014, 07:58:23 PM
 #258

what's with all these changes being announced in NXT anyways?  it's a constantly moving target/project.  btw, that's bad.  why?  b/c long term investors need to know exactly what they're investing in.  they want to know the rules ahead of time.  investors, like myself, hate uncertainty and the alts/POS/NXT/NEM are great examples of chameleons.  you may call it "innovation" or "evolving".  i call it confusion.

out of curiosity, what exactly are you confused with? its decentralized asset exchange? its marketplace?

what is it that's so hard to grasp?

confusion on the part of NXT devs and it's community.  i'm not confused about anything.  it's clear to me that i'd never invest in such fickleness.

Those are empty words.
"confusion on the part of NXT devs and it's community" -- what exactly?
"fickleness" -- where exactly?

all the code and rule changes and promises for more.  along with the failed rollback patch from the other day.  from an investor's standpoint, i wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole.
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August 20, 2014, 08:00:08 PM
 #259

all the code and rule changes and promises for more.

So undefined...

Which "code and rule" changes? Which promises exactly?

from an investor's standpoint, i wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole.

That's your freedom of choice and perfectly fine, but why would anyone care? Why keep saying this, are you that important?

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August 20, 2014, 08:02:11 PM
 #260

The incentivized PoW may be a feature but what happens when it stops.  You can't have both cheap and secure transactions.  Currently 1% worth of asics are securing 100% of bitcoin and that's with block reward being 50 times higher then transaction fees.  There's currently a feedback loop where fiat/wealth is being sucked into the bitcoin system through the appearance of profitability through mining.  It may very well continue for many years to come. But how do you see this change after next halving or how about the halving after that cypher?
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