bustabit.com -- The Social Gambling Game

[kolloh]

Thanks to @cowbay for the idea. The ability to "precredit" deposits for a small fee so you don't need to wait on confirmations. And I'll probably extend free-precredits as a VIP feature for established players

Interesting feature. Seems like it would be open to abuse though. User pays a 3,200 bit fee to have 320,000 bits precredited, withdrawals/tips them and doublespends the transaction. I don't think charging a fee makes it any safer to accept unconfirmed funds unless you have some other mechanism in place to prevent abuse ( such as limiting tipping / withdrawls until confirmation )

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[RHavar]

Interesting feature. Seems like it would be open to abuse though. User pays a 3,200 bit fee to have 320,000 bits precredited, withdrawals/tips them and doublespends the transaction. I don't think charging a fee makes it any safer to accept unconfirmed funds unless you have some other mechanism in place to prevent abuse ( such as limiting tipping / withdrawals until confirmation )

Charging a fee makes it safer, because it adds a cost to failure (i.e. if you can double-spend with a probability of 1 in a 1000, but if you have to pay a 1% fee it's going to be unprofitable)

One of the biggest reasons though for me charging a fee, is to stop it being over-used and only used for time-sensitive deposits.  There's also a huge amount of heuristics that go into if I can accepting it (e.g. there's a max total risk for the site at any point, a kill switch if it gets abused, heuristics about the transaction itself (e.g. if it's bip125, it's ancestral fee / ancestral size etc). Only transactions that pass those heuristics are eligible for "precrediting".

Over time, I want to tweak it though to be more reputational. My long term goal with it is for someone who is obviously a gambler, depositing a normal amount of money for them in a non-replaceable transaction that has enough fees to confirm will just be able to get their money instantly without having to wait (or pay any extra).

That's definitely the experience I'd want on another casino, so I hope I'm able to bring it to bustabit

[fiscorcle]

Whats the downside to accepting unconfirmed transactions, if you can't cash out or transfer them before they confirm? I.e. what's this fee doing that simply limiting withdraws and transfers wouldn't?

[RHavar]

Whats the downside to accepting unconfirmed transactions, if you can't cash out or transfer them before they confirm? I.e. what's this fee doing that simply limiting withdraws and transfers wouldn't?

Disabling withdrawals until funds confirm isn't actually very effective, it only stops a rather simple type of attack Imagine this case: Someone deposits 1 bitcoin. They gamble it (say @ 2x). If they win, they let the deposit confirm, and all is good. If they lose, they attempt to double-spend it. If they they are successful in double-spending 1% of the time, this is enough to make a profit (betting 1 BTC @ 2x in bustabit only has a 0.5% house edge).

[fiscorcle]

Whats the downside to accepting unconfirmed transactions, if you can't cash out or transfer them before they confirm? I.e. what's this fee doing that simply limiting withdraws and transfers wouldn't?

Disabling withdrawals until funds confirm isn't actually very effective, it only stops a rather simple type of attack Imagine this case: Someone deposits 1 bitcoin. They gamble it (say @ 2x). If they win, they let the deposit confirm, and all is good. If they lose, they attempt to double-spend it. If they they are successful in double-spending 1% of the time, this is enough to make a profit (betting 1 BTC @ 2x in bustabit only has a 0.5% house edge).

So you're betting that this fee will be bigger than the % of the time someone can successfully double spend essentially?

[BoXXoB]

bustabit v2 teaser:




Thanks to @cowbay for the idea. The ability to "precredit" deposits for a small fee so you don't need to wait on confirmations. And I'll probably extend free-precredits as a VIP feature for established players

Looking good.

Nice idea with requiring a fee for precredited deposits. I as a degen would probably use such a feature frequently. Is there still a certain tx fee required in order to have precredit function?

[DarkStar_]

bustabit v2 teaser:
https://i.imgur.com/jgSWMzR.png


Thanks to @cowbay for the idea. The ability to "precredit" deposits for a small fee so you don't need to wait on confirmations. And I'll probably extend free-precredits as a VIP feature for established players

Really cool idea for a feature, and very unique. I'd probably use it quite a bit, since it's a fairly low fee and I'm impatient. I assume the precredit fee will got to investors, to cover possible losses from double spenders? (assuming that's still happening) Any rough ETA for when bustabit v2 will be out?

Even with the measures in place, it still seems quite risky. Someone might pay a fee just low enough to be accepted, do a quick bet and double spend with a very high fee on loss.

Looking good.

Nice idea with requiring a fee for precredited deposits. I as a degen would probably use such a feature frequently. Is there still a certain tx fee required in order to have precredit function?

Yes, he said it need to be low double spending risk, so a decent fee for the size of the transaction would probably be needed.

One of the biggest reasons though for me charging a fee, is to stop it being over-used and only used for time-sensitive deposits.  There's also a huge amount of heuristics that go into if I can accepting it (e.g. there's a max total risk for the site at any point, a kill switch if it gets abused, heuristics about the transaction itself (e.g. if it's bip125, it's ancestral fee / ancestral size etc). Only transactions that pass those heuristics are eligible for "precrediting".

Over time, I want to tweak it though to be more reputational. My long term goal with it is for someone who is obviously a gambler, depositing a normal amount of money for them in a non-replaceable transaction that has enough fees to confirm will just be able to get their money instantly without having to wait (or pay any extra).

[RHavar]

I assume the precredit fee will got to investors, to cover possible losses from double spenders? (assuming that's still happening)

At least for now, I will personally cover any double-spending loss and collect any precredit fees. The double-spending risk/return is pretty hard to quantify, so I don't really want to put that on investors. Ideally it's not going to be a profit-source (or sink) just a nice polished feature for impatient gamblers 

Any rough ETA for when bustabit v2 will be out?

Today was the first day I have had a whole end-to-end experience working with bustabit v2 (deposit, play, withdraw). It's currently rough as hell, but I it's getting pretty close to public-beta stage. It'll probably be in public-beta stage for a month+ until I'm confident there's no regressions over what we have now

Even with the measures in place, it still seems quite risky. Someone might pay a fee just low enough to be accepted, do a quick bet and double spend with a very high fee on loss.

Yeah, there's an extensive amount of work that has gone into it to make it reasonably safe. It looks at things like the transactions, their parents, if they've had time to propagate, etc any conflicts etc.  If there's not enough reason for me to be confident the transaction will confirm, or is safe from double-spending it won't be eligible for precrediting.

It also has max-risk thresholds, (e.g. only X bitcoin is eligible for precrediting at once, so the max loss for the site could only be X) along with a kill switch when ever it detects a successful defraud (for me to investigate, and further tune).

[kolloh]

Yeah, there's an extensive amount of work that has gone into it to make it reasonably safe. It looks at things like the transactions, their parents, if they've had time to propagate, etc any conflicts etc.  If there's not enough reason for me to be confident the transaction will confirm, or is safe from double-spending it won't be eligible for precrediting.

It also has max-risk thresholds, (e.g. only X bitcoin is eligible for precrediting at once, so the max loss for the site could only be X) along with a kill switch when ever it detects a successful defraud (for me to investigate, and further tune).

Yeah, with these steps it should be a lot less risky and will be a great feature to have for gamblers. No one likes waiting on a confirm and this allows you to jump into the action a lot quicker. I'm sure I'd use it if I wasn't in the mood to wait on a confirm.

[J Gambler]

This is the only gambling website that don't needs to be advertise nor don't had signature campaign bustabit nowadays is everywhere in country lo'ts of player and still growing hoping for the best on v2 of bustabit i always wanted to play here once i have bitcoins less risk.

[BTCevo]

Thanks to @cowbay for the idea. The ability to "precredit" deposits for a small fee so you don't need to wait on confirmations. And I'll probably extend free-precredits as a VIP feature for established players

Interesting feature. Seems like it would be open to abuse though. User pays a 3,200 bit fee to have 320,000 bits precredited, withdrawals/tips them and doublespends the transaction. I don't think charging a fee makes it any safer to accept unconfirmed funds unless you have some other mechanism in place to prevent abuse ( such as limiting tipping / withdrawls until confirmation )

3200 bit as fee? Is this for real? That is 0.032 btc just to get 0.32 confirmation of this? This fee is really huge. Changing the fee higher will just make people complain more and more. And this thing will sure affect many players.

Did I miss this "pre creditted" things? May be I little bit confuse here

[devans]

3200 bit as fee? Is this for real? That is 0.032 btc just to get 0.32 confirmation of this? This fee is really huge. Changing the fee higher will just make people complain more and more. And this thing will sure affect many players.

Did I miss this "pre creditted" things? May be I little bit confuse here

It's an optional feature that allows you to play immediately rather than waiting for a confirmation. You don't have to make use of the service if you don't want to.

Also, 3,200 bits is 0.0032 BTC, not 0.032 BTC, so the proposed fee isn't as high as you may have thought.

[RHavar]

3200 bit as fee? Is this for real? That is 0.032 btc just to get 0.32 confirmation of this? This fee is really huge. Changing the fee higher will just make people complain more and more. And this thing will sure affect many players.

Did I miss this "pre creditted" things? May be I little bit confuse here

It's strictly an opt-in feature on a deposit-to-deposit basis and very explicit about the fees. If you don't want to use it (as we expect most users won't) then absolutely nothing will change. 

Basically the idea is if you're impatient and want your money before it confirms, you'll be able to pay to get it instantly. Over time (assuming miners don't switch to full-RBF) I'll like to extend the feature to most gamblers completely for free. But if you don't use it, it'll be like it is now (no fee, but you need to wait till your money confirms before you get it)

[fiscorcle]

3200 bit as fee? Is this for real? That is 0.032 btc just to get 0.32 confirmation of this? This fee is really huge. Changing the fee higher will just make people complain more and more. And this thing will sure affect many players.

Did I miss this "pre creditted" things? May be I little bit confuse here

It's strictly an opt-in feature on a deposit-to-deposit basis and very explicit about the fees. If you don't want to use it (as we expect most users won't) then absolutely nothing will change. 

Basically the idea is if you're impatient and want your money before it confirms, you'll be able to pay to get it instantly. Over time (assuming miners don't switch to full-RBF) I'll like to extend the feature to most gamblers completely for free. But if you don't use it, it'll be like it is now (no fee, but you need to wait till your money confirms before you get it)

How big of a whale would someone have to be to get their fees waived?

[hopenotlate]

3200 bit as fee? Is this for real? That is 0.032 btc just to get 0.32 confirmation of this? This fee is really huge. Changing the fee higher will just make people complain more and more. And this thing will sure affect many players.

Did I miss this "pre creditted" things? May be I little bit confuse here

It's strictly an opt-in feature on a deposit-to-deposit basis and very explicit about the fees. If you don't want to use it (as we expect most users won't) then absolutely nothing will change. 

Basically the idea is if you're impatient and want your money before it confirms, you'll be able to pay to get it instantly. Over time (assuming miners don't switch to full-RBF) I'll like to extend the feature to most gamblers completely for free. But if you don't use it, it'll be like it is now (no fee, but you need to wait till your money confirms before you get it)

How big of a whale would someone have to be to get their fees waived?

By the way 3200 bits are 0.0032 BTC ( not 0.032 as you wrote) but agree it's a hell of a fee.

But, being optional, maybe there are so impatient players willing to pay those fees to avoid the delay.

[RGR991]

I'm coming for you Ryan, I've created the ultimate bot 

[fiscorcle]

HOw is this different from theo other one? (Unless you've figured out how to account for bonuses)?

[RHavar]

How big of a whale would someone have to be to get their fees waived?

It'll depend on how well it works in practice (i.e. how easily people can or can defraud the system). The easier it is the defraud, the more restrictive I'll have to be about who I whitelist etc. If it works out well, ideally almost everyone will be able to use the feature free of charge for their typical size deposits (for them).

[dooglus]

Basically the idea is if you're impatient and want your money before it confirms, you'll be able to pay to get it instantly.

What if I deposit without opting in, wait 20 minutes without getting a confirmation and change my mind about opting in. Can I at that point opt in and instantly get 99% of the deposited amount in my balance? Or do I have to decide before I make the transaction whether I want to pay the 1% fee or not?

[RHavar]

What if I deposit without opting in, wait 20 minutes without getting a confirmation and change my mind about opting in. Can I at that point opt in and instantly get 99% of the deposited amount in my balance? Or do I have to decide before I make the transaction whether I want to pay the 1% fee or not?

You actually decide after depositing. The way it works is you make a deposit like normal, and then get a notification in bustabit that there's a pending deposit. If you go to the detail page, it shows up as a "pending deposit" and next to that there's a button you can push to have precredited  (and then confirm the fee). At that point the code does a bunch of checks (fee rate, bip125, check unconfirmed parents, checks total site risk, checks if the site has been defrauded before), and if everything is good you get 99% of your money instantly added.