Does God judge the nations?

[BADecker]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

Its the "putting people to death" part that makes it murder. Killing someone because they worship another god is murder no matter how much an idiot like yourself tries to rationalize it.  Call it murder, a "death penalty", punishment...whatever  you want to call it.  Your god commands you to put people to death who simply worship another god.   great guy isn’t he???

Again, the answer to this is in: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=734119.msg8315130#msg8315130.

Murder is the killing of someone for purposes that are not righteous. The whole Bible gives us a picture of what is righteous and what is not.

[BADecker]

god wants to kill the other gods like the christian god wants to kill muslim god. god wars.

There is only One God. The Muslim god is either a very bad picture of the One God, or it is not the One God at all. The Muslim god is, among other things, a god of good works salvation. The Christian (and Jewish) God is a God of the gift of salvation, because NOBODY can live righteously enough to keep himself/herself alive.

Too bad about the Jews that they just won't accept that the Messiah, the Christ, came in the form of Jesus of the New Testament. They are so missing it.

[BADecker]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

Its the "putting people to death" part that makes it murder. Killing someone because they worship another god is murder no matter how much an idiot like yourself tries to rationalize it.  Call it murder, a "death penalty", punishment...whatever  you want to call it.  Your god commands you to put people to death who simply worship another god.   great guy isn’t he???

Still not anwering the question - unless you are saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder

[noviapriani]

A person cannot get any more illogical than that.

If this is indeed an act of the Creator, and since the Creator is the source of all Goodness - it cannot be evil.

We cannot be more righteous than our Creator.  So, if anything, the problem is with us.

Nothing more arrogant than us judging our Creator.  But, we all do it.  Part of our fallen nature. 

[noviapriani]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

Well, Romans 1 does speak of God's judgment, yes?  I think you are saying that you don't see the judgement as nation specific - is that what you mean?


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse

Yes if you look at how things worked in the OT and the transition to the NT. To your point if a nation slides into depravity to where selfishness personal or otherwise rules, if we see a senerio such as a max thunderdome movie the nation will suffer. However i don't see any "nation" that is any more or less subject to that senerio. We have the final judgement, we also have the kind of judgement that's been going on caused by sin which is broadly dispersed thoughout the world. The final days (whenever that may be) will not involve a nation but mankind in general. Nations are used as well as people but the final plan belongs to God not us 

Romans 1 is not a transition.  Paul is stating a principle.   This is what happens when folks reject the knowledge of their Creator, true?

[Rigon]

A person cannot get any more illogical than that.

If this is indeed an act of the Creator, and since the Creator is the source of all Goodness - it cannot be evil.

We cannot be more righteous than our Creator.  So, if anything, the problem is with us.

Nothing more arrogant than us judging our Creator.  But, we all do it.  Part of our fallen nature. 

Thats all fine and well but tell that to the guy who commanded Moses to tell others to kill men, women and children who happened to be born in a place where they worship other gods.   Your brainwashing tells you god is good, so you rationalize the shit out of the old testament.  I am not brainwashed and can see the OT as the fire and brimstone murdering angry god that is clearly written.

[BADecker]

For a God to judge, there need to exist a God. Usually - when making a claim, you have to prove that is is true. Many religions state that their religion is the only 'right' one.

When you compare the dictionary definition of God to the knowledge that we have around us, even science tells us that we are just scratching the surface of the complexity of the universe. Yet, the universe acts like a machine. And machines have makers. So, since the machinery of the universe is way more complicated than we are, the universe at least is God. Personally, I undrstand that God is outside the Universe - Something completely different.

Think about it.

... it's possible that there exist several Gods...

The universe is too complex for more than one God. If there were more than one, they would have had to act entirely as one to make the universe work. Otherwise their individual thinking would have contradicted each other in some areas so that the universe would never have come into existence. One God !!!

What is a nation? Let's for the sake of simplicity define it as all the people living within some artificial borders drawn up on a map. Some of those people will be really bad, some of them will be really good, and there will be a lot of them not being particular good, or particular bad, just normal average people who care mostly about themselves and their families.

How do you know a nation exists? Big mouthed politicians have described the nations of the world. Yet the borders that they define are not the borders that the people living on the land always accept.

For example, Thrace doesn't exist. But if you look up the people of eastern Greece and southwestern Romania, you will find that the people still identify themselves with the nation of Thrace, which has been long gone formally.

There's no such people as 'Gods people'. That's utter nonsense. There might be groups that have decided that they really are 'Gods people' to make them appear better than everyone else. In reality they're not.

Actually, God's people are spread around the world. It includes all the people who believe in the Salvation of Jesus, whether or not they have a formal country. Consider the book of Daniel in the Old Testament. Daniel 2:44 (NIV 1984):

In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

Join the kingdom that will never be destroyed. Fill yourself on the Bible so that it becomes easier.

Point blank, people need to stop being idiots, and look at life for what it is, and not point to any fairytale figure in the sky that's the answer to everything, and certainly not be as stupid as to believe that a religious book is somehow special, and that everything in that book is true.

You are so right about people needing to stop being idiots. Take a look at my posts here in this topic, and see that people who are not willing to believe in God in the proper way are the stupid ones.

To make any kind of rational and logical arguments, you need to lose the religious fanaticism and educate yourself.

In my opinion, there's no omnipotent God, and your life will mainly be governed by your own will, and randomly there can happen unexpected positive or bad things.

You are a thinker. Stop wasting your thinking ability on such silly thinking. Rather, find out Who God is so that you can be saved. He reveals Himself in the Bible.

[noviapriani]

A person cannot get any more illogical than that.

If this is indeed an act of the Creator, and since the Creator is the source of all Goodness - it cannot be evil.

We cannot be more righteous than our Creator.  So, if anything, the problem is with us.

Nothing more arrogant than us judging our Creator.  But, we all do it.  Part of our fallen nature. 

Thats all fine and well but tell that to the guy who commanded Moses to tell others to kill men, women and children who happened to be born in a place where they worship other gods.   Your brainwashing tells you god is good, so you rationalize the shit out of the old testament.  I am not brainwashed and can see the OT as the fire and brimstone murdering angry god that is clearly written.

it is one thing if you were simply disagreeing - but, your thinking is twisted, given how illogical your answer was.

If the Bible is true, the problem is us.  Had you said that therefore because you cannot accept the implications of the Bible being true, it is then false, you at least would not have been illogical, right or wrong as you then may be.

But, you are a typical example of Romans chapter 1.


Note that you refused to consider context, and you also refused to have your position looked at closely also. 

[Rigon]

A person cannot get any more illogical than that.

If this is indeed an act of the Creator, and since the Creator is the source of all Goodness - it cannot be evil.

We cannot be more righteous than our Creator.  So, if anything, the problem is with us.

Nothing more arrogant than us judging our Creator.  But, we all do it.  Part of our fallen nature. 

Thats all fine and well but tell that to the guy who commanded Moses to tell others to kill men, women and children who happened to be born in a place where they worship other gods.   Your brainwashing tells you god is good, so you rationalize the shit out of the old testament.  I am not brainwashed and can see the OT as the fire and brimstone murdering angry god that is clearly written.

it is one thing if you were simply disagreeing - but, your thinking is twisted, given how illogical your answer was.

If the Bible is true, the problem is us.  Had you said that therefore because you cannot accept the implications of the Bible being true, it is then false, you at least would not have been illogical, right or wrong as you then may be.

But, you are a typical example of Romans chapter 1.


Note that you refused to consider context, and you also refused to have your position looked at closely also. 

My logic is fully intact. When you abandon logic to put your faith in the "truth" of a fairy tale, then logic is cast out the door.  If the bible is true....god ordered innocent women and children to be put to death.  If the bible is not true.christians just think he ordered women and children be put to death.....both bad options.

[Rigon]

I fully considered context........ and rejected it.  Killing a child because their parents happen to believe in another god is murder in every context imaginable.

Recall that I addressed content directly...I said THERE IS NO FUCKING CONTEXT WHATSOEVER that EVER...as in ....EVER...make the killing of a person for their belief acceptable.  It is murder.  It will always be murder. Not everything is absolute...but this is.  You can bend over backwards looking for context that makes it ok....but it doesnt exist.

[BADecker]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

The evil of believing in the Buddha isn't in the fact of the good living that they proclaim. It is in the fact that they think that anybody can ever be good enough to live forever one way or another.

Eternal life isn't something mystical. Rather, it is something ultra-scientific. It is logical. For example, if you could take all the pollution out of our lives, and add only wholesome foods, destroy the inherent degradations in our cells, and think only pure thoughts, we could live for a long time - maybe hundreds of years.

The problem is, we don't know what it is like to do this. Buddhism goes in that direction somewhat. The problem with Buddhism is that it doesn't, can't, go far enough, just like Hinduism.

While Christianity doesn't go as far as Buddhism and Hinduism in the actual living, practical operations, Christianity goes all the way in preparing people for eternal life.

God is ultimately going to destroy this universe because of the evil that has come about in it; God can't stand even the tiniest bit of evil. He is offering us a method in faith in Jesus to gain eternal life in the New Universe He is creating... a Universe that will have no evil in it, no flaws, no capability for potential mistakes, yet freedom, love, and goodness for all who live therein.

You are free to make your choice. God might entice you, He might call to you, He'll slap you around a little, all so that you wake up and join with Him. He is the only way to eternal life. He is doing it for your own good. No matter what you think, history makes it obvious that everyone dies in this life. At least give yourself a chance. Turn to God.

[noviapriani]

If the Bible is true, then they were not innocent.

In fact, none of us according to the Bible.    According to the Bible, you and I are responsible for the crucifying of the Son of God.

[BADecker]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

I suppose if one lived in your world, where reading comprehesion and integrity is optional.

By the way, still waiting for you answer here:

Are you saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

I dont really care about your irrelevent question about other instances where killing may or may not be murder.  We are talking about one specific situation....

The one specific situation we are discussigin is where a person has a different faith and is put to death, killed, murdered, terminated, etc. for simply having that different faith.   You can call it what you like but that is murder.

Look at it this way. If there were a bunch of people who were totally against putting anyone to death for anything, they would all die because those that were in favor of killing people would kill them all off. So, if they wanted to live, they would have to adopt killing some people under some circumstances, namely, those murderers who were killing them off.

[BADecker]

I am not trolling....and i asked myself those questions many times....but i choose to believe my religion....and as long as i don't harm others with my believe i don't see what is wrong with it.I don't judge you for saving the life of some animals and kill the others, i do the same,and probably makes me good and bad in the same time.I started this topic to see peoples opinion and to find answers to my questions.

I respect that people have religious views, although I do not share those views personally.

I never stated being religious is wrong, as in fact most religious people are good people, however it's the fanaticism I'm against, and killing in the name of a religion is wrong. I also think it's wrong when a religion governs the life or a person to such an extent that the person lives a poorer life (fear of damnation if doing anything wrong).

All people have religion. Those who kill others have a very strange religion. Often they believe that it is entirely wrong to murder. Yet they do it anyway, knowing it is wrong. What a strange religion!

[Rigon]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

The evil of believing in the Buddha isn't in the fact of the good living that they proclaim. It is in the fact that they think that anybody can ever be good enough to live forever one way or another.

Eternal life isn't something mystical. Rather, it is something ultra-scientific. It is logical. For example, if you could take all the pollution out of our lives, and add only wholesome foods, destroy the inherent degradations in our cells, and think only pure thoughts, we could live for a long time - maybe hundreds of years.

The problem is, we don't know what it is like to do this. Buddhism goes in that direction somewhat. The problem with Buddhism is that it doesn't, can't, go far enough, just like Hinduism.

While Christianity doesn't go as far as Buddhism and Hinduism in the actual living, practical operations, Christianity goes all the way in preparing people for eternal life.

God is ultimately going to destroy this universe because of the evil that has come about in it; God can't stand even the tiniest bit of evil. He is offering us a method in faith in Jesus to gain eternal life in the New Universe He is creating... a Universe that will have no evil in it, no flaws, no capability for potential mistakes, yet freedom, love, and goodness for all who live therein.

You are free to make your choice. God might entice you, He might call to you, He slap you around a little, all so that you wake up and join with Him. He is the only way to eternal life. He is doing it for your own good. No matter what you think, history makes it obvious that everyone dies in this life. At least giver yourself a chance. Turn to God.

why dont you tell us the context in which an instruction to kill women and children for a belief in another god is OK?    Can you do that or will you do the normal thing and allude to some hidden context in some scripture whereby we are supposed to use our ESP to figure out exactly what you might be referring to?  I really dont need a response like...."you clearly ignored the context in Chapter/verse" orthe above ":note that you refuse to consider context".  Ive heard you say shit like that now for days without actually ever explaining the context that might make murdering people OK.   Tell us the context where killing women and children for a belief is OK and dont simply allude to it.  When is it OK for me to put my neighbor to death for believing in another god?  Why was it OK for people to do it back then?

If context matters so much, why have you not yet shared the context that can make killing others for their beliefs acceptable?  This seems to be the thrust of your argument...so fucking make it already!!!  I anxiously await a detailed description of the exact context that makes it OK to kill people for their beliefs.

[BADecker]

The specific situation we are discussigin is where a person has a different faith and is put to death, killed, murdered, terminated, etc. for simply having that different faith (as god commanded Moses apparantly). You can call it what you like but that is murder.

I'm flabbergasted that in this time and age, some people are killing other people because they believe in a different fantasy-person than themselves. When I read such news, I feel that I'm looking into the dark ages of the history of some very primitive planet.

There is so much to be said about this. I do think lack of education has a very strong part of this. I find it hard to believe that a university educated person would still hold beliefs that a certain religion is superior to others, and thus the others needs to be killed. But on the other hand, I might be wrong, and some of those university educated people are even more dangerous as they will use their knowledge to manipulate others to follow their agenda.

People are people, no matter their makeup, and most people just want to live in peace.

The bankers have a religion of gaining money. So they not only have caused almost all the wars in the world, but they also have incited many religious people to slaughter people of other religions. Everything is a religion. For bankers, it is the religion of money, and to gain/attains all the wealth they can. This is what Bitcoin is all about. To stop the bankers, and start a worldwide religion of Bitcoin.

[sana8410]

Why is everyone dancing around the core issue....?

The Bible is not historically accurate.  In other words, for the sake of discussion, The Bible is a lie.   THe events in the Bible never happened.  It is a work of fiction.

[BADecker]

God does not give a shit about nations or religion for that matter. Nations and religion are man made to separate humanity, and to incite war against each other.

Humans are weird creatures.

God cares about all living things on the whole planet. But people wouldn't be people if they didn't have free will. And if they use their free will to harm others, how can God stop it and still let them have free will?

Things will be different in the New Heaven and earth. The structure will be different, so that there can be free will, and yet nobody willing to harm another.

[noviapriani]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

The evil of believing in the Buddha isn't in the fact of the good living that they proclaim. It is in the fact that they think that anybody can ever be good enough to live forever one way or another.

Eternal life isn't something mystical. Rather, it is something ultra-scientific. It is logical. For example, if you could take all the pollution out of our lives, and add only wholesome foods, destroy the inherent degradations in our cells, and think only pure thoughts, we could live for a long time - maybe hundreds of years.

The problem is, we don't know what it is like to do this. Buddhism goes in that direction somewhat. The problem with Buddhism is that it doesn't, can't, go far enough, just like Hinduism.

While Christianity doesn't go as far as Buddhism and Hinduism in the actual living, practical operations, Christianity goes all the way in preparing people for eternal life.

God is ultimately going to destroy this universe because of the evil that has come about in it; God can't stand even the tiniest bit of evil. He is offering us a method in faith in Jesus to gain eternal life in the New Universe He is creating... a Universe that will have no evil in it, no flaws, no capability for potential mistakes, yet freedom, love, and goodness for all who live therein.

You are free to make your choice. God might entice you, He might call to you, He slap you around a little, all so that you wake up and join with Him. He is the only way to eternal life. He is doing it for your own good. No matter what you think, history makes it obvious that everyone dies in this life. At least giver yourself a chance. Turn to God.

why dont you tell us the context in which an instruction to kill women and children for a belief in another god is OK?    Can you do that or will you do the normal thing and allude to some hidden context in some scripture whereby we are supposed to use our ESP to figure out exactly what you might be referring to?  I really dont need a response like...."you clearly ignored the context in Chapter/verse" orthe above ":note that you refuse to consider context".  Ive heard you say shit like that now for days without actually ever explaining the context that might make murdering people OK.   Tell us the context where killing women and children for a belief is OK and dont simply allude to it.  When is it OK for me to put my neighbor to death for believing in another god?  Why was it OK for people to do it back then?

If context matters so much, why have you not yet shared the context that can make killing others for their beliefs acceptable?  This seems to be the thrust of your argument...so fucking make it already!!!  I anxiously await a detailed description of the exact context that makes it OK to kill people for their beliefs.

I would like to - and thus my questions to you as to what makes somethiing murder.  

Are you saying humans are more than just another type of animal?  Your responses certainly demonstrate that you do think so, regardless of your 'offical position'.

[BADecker]

More accurately it's called, genocide.In the case of the Israelites murdering non-Israelites, some may prefer the term, "Ethnic Cleansing".

Actually, if you read the account, it was not for having a 'different faith'.

But, lets go with your error and again ask - what determines that something is murder?  Some folks think aborting babies is murder - not all.  Some folk think the government executing murderers or rapists is murder - other folkd do not.

What makes your interpretation of murder the correct one?

Believing in a different god is having a different faith.  Believing anything differently means having a different faith. It is not an error.  Deuteronomy says (God to Moses) kill people who worship other gods.  Worshiping other gods means your faith is different.  How many ways do I have to explain something so simple to you?

Yet, the nations that God directed Moses to destroy, were peopled by people who were turning further and further from God, from the truth of life. So, the destruction was a good thing for them. It only hastened the place where they were going anyway, and gave them peace sooner.