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Spoetnik
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October 07, 2014, 05:50:02 AM
 #2261

Short version of how the Monero VIRUS works..

Quote
to newer users here i will explain the scam here.. it's pretty simple

first start a new clone coin then change enough of it so you can get away with calling it a fork.
then try and tack on what ever gimmick is popular such as Anon Features.
Then IPO it or flash mine it and buy into it as hard as you can as fast as you can so you can get in on the ground floor *cheap.
Then phase 2
Spam and nag and harass people about non stop hoping to lure in victims and hopefully groom them
so you can recruit them as Shills to advertise for your Ponzi/Pyramid scheme also *a bonus.
then make sure to groom your victims like a pedophile does to little children feeding them propaganda they can use on others to push the scheme along..
Problem is the END GAME !
The leader(s) on the top of the pyramid scheme are not going to notify the lemmings who bought in all naive and gullible
they will simply be dumped on for a massive loss in money !
The key to this scam to keep it going as long as possible suckering in as many victims as possible.. the scam maintenance.
The longer they can run this "Long-Con" the more people they can lure into the trap and fleece for Bitcoin..

I suggest new users beware and don't be low hanging fruit

These Monero Shills are crypto-offenders and should have to go door to door in their neighborhoods
and tell the communities all over crypto they are convicted offenders and are guilty of grooming their victims for the long-con !
Beware new users you don't want to be sitting in a shrinks office pointing to a doll showing what naughty parts of your wallet they violated Wink

FUD first & ask questions later™
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TheFascistMind
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October 07, 2014, 05:52:11 AM
Last edit: October 07, 2014, 06:04:54 AM by TheFascistMind
 #2262



How come there are no fortunes in fortune cookies?


There is if you have the vision to see it.


~BCX~

An 11 year old pointed out to me that what is in fortune cookies are actually statements.

I was slightly surprised to see the BCX won that philosophical exchange handily IMO. Impressed.

On the face of it, yes they are only statements and quite cheap to produce. But this ignores how knowledge is formed. BCX's reply eloquently captured Taleb's and my theories about the formulation of value (via knowledge). It is the (long-tail) chance meeting of information that causes symbiosis and genesis.

http://unheresy.com/Information%20Is%20Alive.html#Algorithm_!=_Entropy

Quote from: me, myself, and I
However, the speed of the computing hardware and the sophistication of the software has no relevance because creativity can't be expressed in an algorithm. Every possible model of the brain will lack the fundamental cause of human creativity— every human brain is unique. Thus each of billions of brains is able to contemplate possibilities and scenarios differently enough so that it is more likely at least one brain will contemplate some unique idea that fits each set of possibilities at each point in time.

An algorithm or model can describe what and how to do and even be generalized to respond to unknown future scenarios by observing patterns and deducing rules about its environment, but it can't vary its imperfections nondeterministically, because the input entropy (to the algorithm) is known a priori and is finite. Whereas, for the collection of all human brains, the entropy is unbounded and thus the future can't be predetermined, i.e. isn't deterministic.

Imagine if life was perfect and without chance. Life would be deterministic and could be modeled with an algorithm, then failure couldn't exist, everything would be known in advance, and thus there could be no change that wasn't predictable, i.e. real change wouldn't exist and the universe would be static. Life requires imperfection and unbounded diversity, else life doesn't exist and isn't alive. Equality and perfection are the ambition of the insane who probably don't realize they must destroy life to reach their goal.

To make the computers as creative as the humans would require inputting the entropy from all the human brains. Yet there is no plausible way to extract the future uniqueness of human brains other than to allow them interact with the environment over unbounded time, because the occurrence of creativity is probablistic (by chance) as the dynamic diversity of human minds interact with the changing environment. The term unbounded means there is no way to observe or capture that uniqueness a priori other than through the future of life as it unfolds.

Inmates can be forced to do manual labor because it is possible to observe the performance of the menial tasks. However, it is impossible (or at least very inefficient and imprecise) to determine whether a human is feigning inability or giving best effort at a knowledge task. Manual labor is fungible, i.e. nearly any person with average IQ and dexterous limbs can be substituted to do the task. Whereas, knowledge production such as programming the computer, authoring content or developing marketing plans, requires diversity of thought.

Unsophisticated thinkers have an incorrect understanding of knowledge creation, idolizing a well-structured top-down sparkling academic cathedral of vastly superior theoretical minds. Rather knowledge primary spawns from accretive learning due to unexpected random chaotic fitness created from multitudes of random path dependencies that can only exist in the bottom-up free market. Top-down systems are inherently fragile because they overcommit to egregious error (link to Taleb's simplest summary of the math).

P.S. Taleb responded in email affirmatively to what I wrote in the last paragraph.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb#Philosophical_theories

Quote
Relatedly, he also believes that universities are better at public relations and claiming credit than generating knowledge. He argues that knowledge and technology are usually generated by what he calls "stochastic tinkering" rather than by top-down directed research.
TheFascistMind
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October 07, 2014, 05:57:43 AM
 #2263

Short version of how the Monero VIRUS works..

...

These Monero Shills are crypto-offenders and should have to go door to door in their neighborhoods
and tell the communities all over crypto they are convicted offenders and are guilty of grooming their victims for the long-con !
Beware new users you don't want to be sitting in a shrinks office pointing to a doll showing what naughty parts of your wallet they violated Wink

You actually wrote something that made laugh.  Cheesy

Maybe if you keep your posts short...

(not agreeing to the criticism about lon-con, etc.. I just think it is normal human groupthink, not premeditated)
smooth
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October 07, 2014, 06:04:19 AM
 #2264

Thanks for teaching me why I now hate checkpoints. They could be an insidious vulnerability for the fiat politics to take over the PoW decentralization!

This is one reason why I say that cryptocurrencies simply may not work. Ever. If there are people, there is politics. Possibly math can be made to serve as a partial substitute, but we certainly aren't there yet. As we know giving all the power to the miners is not the way, especially when no demonstrated mechanism for decentralizing them. There are ideas, as we know, so we will see.


Spoetnik
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October 07, 2014, 06:05:59 AM
 #2265

Short version of how the Monero VIRUS works..

...

These Monero Shills are crypto-offenders and should have to go door to door in their neighborhoods
and tell the communities all over crypto they are convicted offenders and are guilty of grooming their victims for the long-con !
Beware new users you don't want to be sitting in a shrinks office pointing to a doll showing what naughty parts of your wallet they violated Wink

You actually wrote something that made laugh.  Cheesy

Maybe if you keep your posts short...

ok for starters i am looking at your first few posts here right now and you have the nerve to say that to me ?
now THAT is funny LOL
read your 4th comment on this forum here..
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=375762;sa=showPosts;start=500
and take note at the length.
then have a look at how much you all say it's ME that writes the walls of text.
ProTip:
Look in the fucking mirror LOL

hey i am laughing man so whatever Wink

but now that i have your attention from the science show with smooth let me ask you a straight forward question
that i am hoping for a straight answer for ..

Should new users coming here invest in Monero or NOT ?
I'd like a definitive answer not necessarily a short one per say but one that does in fact answer the question one way or the other.

FUD first & ask questions later™
TheFascistMind
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October 07, 2014, 06:07:59 AM
 #2266

Thanks for teaching me why I now hate checkpoints. They could be an insidious vulnerability for the fiat politics to take over the PoW decentralization!

This is one reason why I say that cryptocurrencies simply may not work. Ever. If there are people, there is politics. Possibly math can be made to serve as a partial substitute, but we certainly aren't there yet. As we know giving all the power to the miners is not the way, especially when no demonstrated mechanism for decentralizing them. There are ideas, as we know, so we will see.

Robinwilliams is correct we don't have the demonstrated conclusion yet, but visible evidence thus far is to the negative outcome.

I will offer one evidence that we might have a chance to succeed.

Since the dawn of recorded human history, currency was never fully centralized. There was always a blackmarket.

Yet now the State is gaining the technology to eliminate physical blackmarkets (e.g. drones, ubiquitous communication, satelittes that can read the VIN # on your dashboard, night vision, etc.). So if they can also lock up digital markets, then it means the end of the human race. We will descend into a Dark Age as the collectivism is a cancer. History has shown that collectivism can't be aborted before megadeath if there is no leakage to frontiers.
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October 07, 2014, 06:13:37 AM
 #2267

Should new users coming here invest in Monero or NOT ?
I'd like a definitive answer not necessarily a short one per say but one that does in fact answer the question one way or the other.

Not sure if you were asking TFM or me -- your posts are a bit hard for me to parse. I'll give you a straight answer though.

No, new users should not invest in Monero. If they are new users they should educate themselves first about cryptocurrencies, and only then make a decision whether to buy any of them and if so which one(s). And even then they should realize that any cryptocurrency is a risky investment and should not go overboard with it.
nioc
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October 07, 2014, 06:20:10 AM
Last edit: October 07, 2014, 06:50:47 AM by nioc
 #2268



How come there are no fortunes in fortune cookies?


There is if you have the vision to see it.


~BCX~

An 11 year old pointed out to me that what is in fortune cookies are actually statements.

I was slightly surprised to see the BCX won that philosophical exchange handily IMO. Impressed.

On the face of it, yes they are only statements and quite cheap to produce. But this ignores how knowledge is formed. BCX's reply eloquently captured Taleb's and my theories about the formulation of value (via knowledge). It is the (long-tail) chance meeting of information that causes symbiosis and genesis.



Nobody won or lost, merely a chance meeting of information.

No matter what answer BCX gave my response would have been the same.

He could have replied having used the definition of fortune being wealth.  He did give a good answer.

Another way to knowledge is not to take things for granted and to look at the world and everything you do with fresh eyes.  Children do this and most adults lose this.

Why did I even ask what seems like a meaningless question out of the blue?
Spoetnik
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October 07, 2014, 06:22:14 AM
 #2269

Should new users coming here invest in Monero or NOT ?
I'd like a definitive answer not necessarily a short one per say but one that does in fact answer the question one way or the other.

Not sure if you were asking TFM or me -- your posts are a bit hard for me to parse. I'll give you a straight answer though.

No, new users should not invest in Monero. If they are new users they should educate themselves first about cryptocurrencies, and only then make a decision whether to buy any of them and if so which one(s). And even then they should realize that any cryptocurrency is a risky investment and should not go overboard with it.


i meant him (Facist guy)
but hey thanks for the candid straight forward answer and i can't argue with that, well said !

a key part of how to take this stuff is having been around long enough to learn about all these coins etc or not.
like you have to learn what distribution methods are used and see which ones you are ok with etc.
and what matters to you like Anon features..
I picked the two main coins i use for FUN and for Convenience and i have NO long term projections for any users on them.

What i have ALWAYS been bothered by in the Altcoin scene is the monstrous bold claims some coin supporters make on various coins.
and this point relates heavily to Monero !
A lot or what seems to be a lot of the Monero supporters are making grandiose claims about the coin on a regular basis
many of which i think are simply outright ridiculous and possibly fraudulent or deceptive to new users.
this behavior will inflame the alt-scene generally speaking.

i had actually made a topic asking why ?
because i just don't get it ? why sooooo much fuss over this coin ?
what i have heard about it vs. the bold claims made about it don't match up to me.. something is not right !

FUD first & ask questions later™
Hotmetal
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October 07, 2014, 06:41:05 AM
 #2270

Short version of how the Monero VIRUS works..

...

These Monero Shills are crypto-offenders and should have to go door to door in their neighborhoods
and tell the communities all over crypto they are convicted offenders and are guilty of grooming their victims for the long-con !
Beware new users you don't want to be sitting in a shrinks office pointing to a doll showing what naughty parts of your wallet they violated Wink

You actually wrote something that made laugh.  Cheesy

Maybe if you keep your posts short...

+1
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October 07, 2014, 07:19:15 AM
 #2271

This is one reason why I say that cryptocurrencies simply may not work. Ever. If there are people, there is politics. Possibly math can be made to serve as a partial substitute, but we certainly aren't there yet.

For wide adoption, general trust is needed. If trust comes through
understanding the math, general population should be acquainted with
the math, which is not likely to happen. Therefore, if cryptocurrency gets
adopted widely, it is likely to happen by trusting some authority that issues
the currency. Say hello to our new crypto-fiat overlords.

“God does not play dice"
JorgeStolfi
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October 07, 2014, 07:19:32 AM
 #2272

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb#Philosophical_theories
Quote
Relatedly, he also believes that universities are better at public relations and claiming credit than generating knowledge. He argues that knowledge and technology are usually generated by what he calls "stochastic tinkering" rather than by top-down directed research.

I am not impartial enough to comment on the first part.  But if he thinks that university research is "top-down directed", he must not know much about universities.

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
TheFascistMind
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October 07, 2014, 07:32:03 AM
 #2273

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb#Philosophical_theories
Quote
Relatedly, he also believes that universities are better at public relations and claiming credit than generating knowledge. He argues that knowledge and technology are usually generated by what he calls "stochastic tinkering" rather than by top-down directed research.

I am not impartial enough to comment on the first part.  But if he thinks that university research is "top-down directed", he must not know much about universities.

My guess is he isn't saying no original thought and research originates there, but was probably cordoning off some portion of the ivory tower influence from research grants, tenure, etc..

I was reading the story of Emmy Noether and thought of the pseudonym for the Monero cryptographer.

Quote
But Göttingen had no faculty posts for women. Hilbert fought for her. "After all," he said angrily, "the [faculty] is not a bath house!" She was finally put on an irregular appointment at a modest salary in 1922 -- when she was 40.
TheFascistMind
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October 07, 2014, 07:42:58 AM
 #2274

Should new users coming here invest in Monero or NOT ?
I'd like a definitive answer not necessarily a short one per say but one that does in fact answer the question one way or the other.

To invest or not invest is not the question that concerns users of a currency.
TheFascistMind
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October 07, 2014, 07:49:26 AM
 #2275

This is one reason why I say that cryptocurrencies simply may not work. Ever. If there are people, there is politics. Possibly math can be made to serve as a partial substitute, but we certainly aren't there yet.

For wide adoption, general trust is needed. If trust comes through
understanding the math, general population should be acquainted with
the math, which is not likely to happen. Therefore, if cryptocurrency gets
adopted widely, it is likely to happen by trusting some authority that issues
the currency. Say hello to our new crypto-fiat overlords.

It is an important point. Users want freedom to spend. But the overlords can't give them that, otherwise they lose control.

I think we can win, if the technology is not fundamentally centralizing.

Users don't need to trust the technology, they just need for it to work all the time as expected.

For now Bitcoin sucks. I use Bitpay and sometimes the damn invoice times out because of the Poisson distribution of block solutions perhaps or the tx fee crap. And who the fuck knows what to do the first time they see a Bitpay invoice?

The stuff is far from user friendly.

Come on...surely we can beat the pants off of Suckerberg and Thail.
NewLiberty
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October 07, 2014, 08:25:32 AM
 #2276


How come there are no fortunes in fortune cookies?

There is if you have the vision to see it.

~BCX~

An 11 year old pointed out to me that what is in fortune cookies are actually statements.

I was slightly surprised to see the BCX won that philosophical exchange handily IMO. Impressed.

On the face of it, yes they are only statements and quite cheap to produce. But this ignores how knowledge is formed. BCX's reply eloquently captured Taleb's and my theories about the formulation of value (via knowledge). It is the (long-tail) chance meeting of information that causes symbiosis and genesis.



Nobody won or lost, merely a chance meeting of information.

No matter what answer BCX gave my response would have been the same.

He could have replied having used the definition of fortune being wealth.  He did give a good answer.

Another way to knowledge is not to take things for granted and to look at the world and everything you do with fresh eyes.  Children do this and most adults lose this.

Why did I even ask what seems like a meaningless question out of the blue?


If one views "winning" a philosophical exchange as a thing at all, wouldn't the winner would be the one that is learning something new?
Engaging in philosophy for one's ego gratification from being right, would be playing that game with a significant handicap.

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October 07, 2014, 08:31:10 AM
 #2277

For example, no one has solved the mining centralization dilemma yet.

Very sorry for the off-topic question, but there have been talks in Darkcoin forums about making all mining go through masternodes, i.e. every masternode would be a p2pool node. Those would be the only blocks that would be accepted. In your opinion, would this decrease the mining centralization and the 51% risk? Currently there are ~1000 masternodes, and the goal as I understand it is to get that number to 2000-3000 eventually.
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October 07, 2014, 08:34:48 AM
 #2278

Thanks for teaching me why I now hate checkpoints. They could be an insidious vulnerability for the fiat politics to take over the PoW decentralization!

This is one reason why I say that cryptocurrencies simply may not work. Ever. If there are people, there is politics. Possibly math can be made to serve as a partial substitute, but we certainly aren't there yet. As we know giving all the power to the miners is not the way, especially when no demonstrated mechanism for decentralizing them. There are ideas, as we know, so we will see.




I agree that's a distinct possibility. I think Bitcoiners are especially delusional with regards to what they beleive is actual decentralisation. At least with most altcoin people we can see that true decentralisation is something that's being worked towards. 

Bitcoiners started in 2010-2012 selling people on this "anonymous" cryptocurrency. Then over time that faded away and "trustless" became the sales point. Now we're left with "decentralised" being the primary feature, and we all know how "decentralised" Bitcoin really is.

It just might not be possible to reach that holy grail. People are trying though, so we'll see. But even so, doesn't mean that we can't build interesting things and come up with interesting uses on top of our pseudo-decentralised currencies. They still might offer an effective alternative to some other forms of commerce in certain situations.
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October 07, 2014, 08:44:36 AM
 #2279

For example, no one has solved the mining centralization dilemma yet.

Very sorry for the off-topic question, but there have been talks in Darkcoin forums about making all mining go through masternodes, i.e. every masternode would be a p2pool node. Those would be the only blocks that would be accepted. In your opinion, would this decrease the mining centralization and the 51% risk? Currently there are ~1000 masternodes, and the goal as I understand it is to get that number to 2000-3000 eventually.

What is the economic incentive for running a masternode?
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October 07, 2014, 08:46:56 AM
 #2280

I think Bitcoiners are especially delusional with regards to what they beleive is actual decentralisation. At least with most altcoin people we can see that true decentralisation is something that's being worked towards.  

Bitcoiners started in 2010-2012 selling people on this "anonymous" cryptocurrency. Then over time that faded away and "trustless" became the sales point. Now we're left with "decentralised" being the primary feature, and we all know how "decentralised" Bitcoin really is.

It just might not be possible to reach that holy grail. People are trying though, so we'll see. But even so, doesn't mean that we can't build interesting things and come up with interesting uses on top of our pseudo-decentralised currencies. They still might offer an effective alternative to some other forms of commerce in certain situations.

I agree we've been stonewalled. That is why I rise up against the concept of a slow-moving, groupthink herding MEW coin (not naming or asserting such precisely exists, just conceptually against being stifled).
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