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TheFascistMind
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 October 03, 2014, 12:33:46 AM

Did you miss the entire discussion about permutations of consecutive independent trials (i.e. not separated by 65 minutes each)?

I saw the lengthy discussion, and I did not see the point of it.

You also didn't see the point of complexity theory.

If someone is causing the block rate to be higher than one per minute, that should be detected by counting blocks in some long interval (say, 10 hours) .

Afaics, that won't help you identify an intentional segregation of fast and slow blocks to manipulate the 80/20 discard window of the CN difficulty adjustment algorithm.

If the block rate is OK but the suspicion is that the timing of blocks is being manipulated, that should be detected by plotting a histogram of block-to-block gaps, or of number of blocks in successive 2 minute intervals, again over a long enough period.

I don't see how that will identify an intentional segregation since the 80/20 discard is relative to its own statistics? Do you mean comparing histogram histories?

Computing the probability of a certain complicated pattern occurring, after seeing it occur, is a tricky business.  The chance of my mother marrying my father was one in two billions or so; that does not mean that my mere existence is a sign that something fishy is going one with the universe...

You said you read the upthread discussion, yet you continue the strawman. My point was to refute the anti-FUD-campaign which was turning into a Monica Lewinsky or Steve Jobs denial, "no malfunction in our devices"[1].

[1] "don't touch it that way"
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NewLiberty
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Gresham's Lawyer

 October 03, 2014, 12:39:55 AM

ROFL
(more funny idea than interesting idea)
Now I'm the one with NEFT shooting out my nostrils!
This was the best one yet, and bonus points for the fast response time.

Of course it was, I posted one then the next.

~BCX~

This one has legs, saw someone in Poloniex asking if you two were the same person.

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TheFascistMind
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 October 03, 2014, 12:45:26 AMLast edit: October 03, 2014, 04:30:44 AM by TheFascistMind

Of course it was, I posted one then the next.

~BCX~
Report to moderator

I am AnonyMint.

Lol. Schrodinger's cat is purring (or it isn't).

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I am AnonyMint.
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I am BCX.
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I am AnonyMint.
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I am BCX.
nutildah
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KnowNoBorders.io

 October 03, 2014, 12:54:42 AM

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that both TFM and BCX are AnonyMint.

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TheFascistMind
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 October 03, 2014, 12:55:19 AM

Afaics, ignoring decentralized checkpoints should be plausible since the attacker would control the decentralized consensus.

Ignoring centralized checkpoints is not so feasible, since you've got to convince others not to run the reference client.

Applying the decentralised checkpoints isn't based on consensus though.  It is a decision each miner may make on their own.
They can also be delivered out of band, so DDoS pfft.
It allows each miner to select which chain they like.

So if BCX forks with TW or other method, that fork ends up back where it started, back in the sandbox along with the little shovels, buckets, and Stoli empties.

There are certain further improvements to this innovation that may yet come, but the rapid response to the only plausible indicated threat (which isn't even all that plausible IMHO) remains an underrated achievement.  BCX shares some of the thanks/blame for this forced evolution.

You said to me upthread you like disagreement. So please pardon that I need to point out that afaics miner's choice doesn't resolve the issue that once a 51% fork has run for a while and many users get their transactions intertwined with it, you can't untangle it to revoke it any more, especially given the anonymity with the ring signatures.

Sorry.

Thank you for this.  I'd missed it so I appreciate the extra effort.

That would be true, if not for the fact that the MONERO DEVS ALREADY DID JUST THAT!

Chain was in contention for 30 blocks, and all transactions replayed from the two chains except the coinbase ones (which in that case there weren't any to speak of) and the chain was reintegrated within that period (30 minutes or so).  So not even a fork in the end.

Dagnabbit I was hoping to learn something with this disagreement.

Maybe they won't be as good next time, but they have had some practice already, and I'm guessing with the generous warning they will be better prepared if it ever happens again.  My understanding is that they don't get unwound, they are retransmitted, so no user intervention needed.

30 blocks is probably not enough for a Gordian knot. What do you do when you people claim very important transactions that they don't want unwound? How do you identify who is who they claim to be as a sender in order to pick and choose which transactions to retain and which to unwind?
TheFascistMind
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 October 03, 2014, 12:59:41 AM

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that both TFM and BCX are AnonyMint.

Ask rpietila since he knows my real identity and ask him if I was involved Bitcoin before he told me to get involved in spring of 2013. BCX has a much longer history here.
NewLiberty
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Gresham's Lawyer

 October 03, 2014, 01:04:50 AM

30 blocks is probably not enough for a Gordian knot. What do you do when you people claim very important transactions that they don't want rewound? How do you identify who is who they claim to be as a sender in order to pick and choose which transactions to retain and which to unwind?
Yes, I't could be worse if it were longer.
None get unwound, only put onto the good chain, so everything goes through but some with a longer delay than expected.
The only user experience issue is the unexpected slowness until it is resolved.  No one has to claim to be anyone.

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TheFascistMind
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 October 03, 2014, 01:05:04 AM

Again, I urge you to reconsider and to promote both a healthy mindset and action on this earth.

Why is begging more healthy than "forced evolution"? I always preferred competition and work ethic over communism.

TheFascistMind
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 October 03, 2014, 01:09:08 AM

30 blocks is probably not enough for a Gordian knot. What do you do when you people claim very important transactions that they don't want rewound? How do you identify who is who they claim to be as a sender in order to pick and choose which transactions to retain and which to unwind?
Yes, I't could be worse if it were longer.
None get unwound, only put onto the good chain, so everything goes through but some with a longer delay than expected.
The only user experience issue is the unexpected slowness until it is resolved.  No one has to claim to be anyone.

How do you unentangle rings which bind to double-spent (conflicting) transactions or reassigned block rewards in the fork? The entire point of forking is to double-spend, reassign the block rewards, or...

How do you identify the claimed lost wallets from the claimed not lost ones? (assuming BCX does have the exploit he alleged, which might just be the reassigning of the originating block rewards, which is a point I made far upthread and apparently forgotten because everyone only wants to dismiss the simultaneous equations idea)

Edit: this is why I am speculating (okay FUD!) if his attack appears, you will see a stampede to try to trade out, because anyone who stays in will be in gridlock and never never land. This is my speculation as to why BCX predict the price would decline or did he say go to 0? I forgot what he implied.
NewLiberty
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Gresham's Lawyer

 October 03, 2014, 01:12:54 AM

30 blocks is probably not enough for a Gordian knot. What do you do when you people claim very important transactions that they don't want rewound? How do you identify who is who they claim to be as a sender in order to pick and choose which transactions to retain and which to unwind?
Yes, I't could be worse if it were longer.
None get unwound, only put onto the good chain, so everything goes through but some with a longer delay than expected.
The only user experience issue is the unexpected slowness until it is resolved.  No one has to claim to be anyone.

How do you unentangle rings which bind to double-spent (conflicting) transactions in the fork? The entire point of forking is to double-spend or...

How do you identify the claimed lost wallets from the claimed not lost ones? (assuming BCX does have the exploit he alleged)
No rings unentangling needed so far.  No lost wallets result either (unless you want to count the coinbase transactions from the dead chain).
There weren't any double spends in this effort so that would be a new "forced evolution" for the Devs.

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TheFascistMind
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 October 03, 2014, 01:20:55 AM

30 blocks is probably not enough for a Gordian knot. What do you do when you people claim very important transactions that they don't want rewound? How do you identify who is who they claim to be as a sender in order to pick and choose which transactions to retain and which to unwind?
Yes, I't could be worse if it were longer.
None get unwound, only put onto the good chain, so everything goes through but some with a longer delay than expected.
The only user experience issue is the unexpected slowness until it is resolved.  No one has to claim to be anyone.

How do you unentangle rings which bind to double-spent (conflicting) transactions in the fork? The entire point of forking is to double-spend or...

How do you identify the claimed lost wallets from the claimed not lost ones? (assuming BCX does have the exploit he alleged)
No rings unentangling needed so far.  No lost wallets result either (unless you want to count the coinbase transactions from the dead chain).
There weren't any double spends in this effort so that would be a new "forced evolution" for the Devs.

So you agree ring signature entanglement from the coinbase transactions of the attackers fork could in theory occur??

How to unwind those?
TheFascistMind
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 October 03, 2014, 01:36:53 AM

Again, I urge you to reconsider and to promote both a healthy mindset and action on this earth.

Why is begging more healthy than "forced evolution"? I always preferred competition and work ethic over communism.

Some FUD wild speculation follows. Really wild FUD guessing. Just sharing one of the thoughts I've had.

Apparently BCX has mining friends or connections. I have contemplated that if he from Philippines he may even have connections to Asian gaming rigs either through some connection to a gaming provider and/or botnets. Gaming is really big over here.

If BCX and friends selfish mined and dumped the coins to Risto et al, spending some proceeds to increase hashrate, on the way towards building the fork amplified to 51% by some TW issue (e.g. the 80/20 discard), then finally crashing the coin in an entangled Gordian knot destroying all the bagholders.

If someone didn't like the concept of the MEW, that would be an epic way to make the point.

My speculation is it has always been about making a point to the community, and I guess also earning some money for another days work for BCX and friends.

Any way, this is just a fictional imagination. There may be no attack at all.

Edit: the alternative reality is BCX is buying up cheaper XMR.
NewLiberty
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Gresham's Lawyer

 October 03, 2014, 01:41:09 AM

So you agree ring signature entanglement from the coinbase transactions of the attackers fork could in theory occur??

How to unwind those?
This is a good question.
I'd like to think about it a bit, but I am still cleaning up the NEFT that spurted out of my face a while back.
After that, I'm going to feed the alpacas and see if anything comes to me.
It is a really good question.  Just too many distractions at the moment.

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Willisius
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I'm really quite sane!

 October 03, 2014, 01:58:49 AM

I like your new signature, TheFascistMind!
rangedriver
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 October 03, 2014, 02:01:01 AM

Again, I urge you to reconsider and to promote both a healthy mindset and action on this earth.

Why is begging more healthy than "forced evolution"? I always preferred competition and work ethic over communism.

Some FUD wild speculation follows. Really wild FUD guessing. Just sharing one of the thoughts I've had.

Apparently BCX has mining friends or connections. I have contemplated that if he from Philippines he may even have connections to Asian gaming rigs either through some connection to a gaming provider and/or botnets. Gaming is really big over here.

BCX isn't based in the Philippines, and neither is he based in Northern California.
TooDumbForBitcoin
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 October 03, 2014, 02:03:13 AM

Again, I urge you to reconsider and to promote both a healthy mindset and action on this earth.

Why is begging more healthy than "forced evolution"? I always preferred competition and work ethic over communism.

Some FUD wild speculation follows. Really wild FUD guessing. Just sharing one of the thoughts I've had.

Apparently BCX has mining friends or connections. I have contemplated that if he from Philippines he may even have connections to Asian gaming rigs either through some connection to a gaming provider and/or botnets. Gaming is really big over here.

BCX isn't based in the Philippines, and neither is he based in Northern California.

And neither are you a truth teller.  Are you looking to be incarcerated with BitcoinEXlax in the Hall of Assholes?  If not, stop with the bullshit.

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Spoetnik
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FUD Philanthropist™

 October 03, 2014, 02:07:11 AM

Again, I urge you to reconsider and to promote both a healthy mindset and action on this earth.

Why is begging more healthy than "forced evolution"? I always preferred competition and work ethic over communism.

Some FUD wild speculation follows. Really wild FUD guessing. Just sharing one of the thoughts I've had.

Apparently BCX has mining friends or connections. I have contemplated that if he from Philippines he may even have connections to Asian gaming rigs either through some connection to a gaming provider and/or botnets. Gaming is really big over here.

If BCX and friends selfish mined and dumped the coins to Risto et al, spending some proceeds to increase hashrate, on the way towards building the fork amplified to 51% by some TW issue (e.g. the 80/20 discard), then finally crashing the coin in an entangled Gordian knot destroying all the bagholders.

If someone didn't like the concept of the MEW, that would be an epic way to make the point.

My speculation is it has always been about making a point to the community, and I guess also earning some money for another days work for BCX and friends.

Any way, this is just a fictional imagination. There may be no attack at all.

Edit: the alternative reality is BCX is buying up cheaper XMR.

He is from Asian descent i am fairly sure i can't recall how i found that out but.. lol
And the first time i ran into him i suspected him of the gamer rig angle of sorts too with his large hash power ability back in the old days before scrypt Asics.
But my take on it was maybe he had a job at MSI or Gigabyte and had access to new gpu testing rigs in a gpu manufacturing plant of sorts ?
Your angle is plausible too though.. i dunno though whatever hahha
Bottom line is it's all speculation.
I have carried on conversations with BCX since mid last year and he has sent me a lot of pm's so i know he doesn't mind talking to me.
I like his style !
He's more of a no-nonsense straight forward kind of guy that is obviously skilled at PC stuff etc.
And i have never asked him ANY questions nor will i..

With my older experience in some communities related to software or PC game cracking i always had the don't ask don't tell attitude.
People usually trust me because i don't pry into their business at all.. going around asking questions is creepy haha
I limit stuff to a country usually.. as in i think come-from-above is from the UK and kelsey is from the AU and i'm from CAN etc
so other than the basics i just leave it alone.. it's not like people are gonna wanna tell you what their up to lol

edit:
although i share a vast amount of personal info on purpose that could be found easily with Google stretching back to like 2001
i have never had anything to hide and don't think i'm all private etc.. i just don't care LOL
if people want to know something i tell em ..who cares

FUD first & ask questions later™
rangedriver
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 October 03, 2014, 02:08:55 AM

Again, I urge you to reconsider and to promote both a healthy mindset and action on this earth.

Why is begging more healthy than "forced evolution"? I always preferred competition and work ethic over communism.

Some FUD wild speculation follows. Really wild FUD guessing. Just sharing one of the thoughts I've had.

Apparently BCX has mining friends or connections. I have contemplated that if he from Philippines he may even have connections to Asian gaming rigs either through some connection to a gaming provider and/or botnets. Gaming is really big over here.

BCX isn't based in the Philippines, and neither is he based in Northern California.

And neither are you a truth teller.  Are you looking to be incarcerated with BitcoinEXlax in the Hall of Assholes?  If not, stop with the bullshit.

You don't know what you're talking about so stay out of it.
TooDumbForBitcoin
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 October 03, 2014, 02:32:00 AM

Again, I urge you to reconsider and to promote both a healthy mindset and action on this earth.

Why is begging more healthy than "forced evolution"? I always preferred competition and work ethic over communism.

Some FUD wild speculation follows. Really wild FUD guessing. Just sharing one of the thoughts I've had.

Apparently BCX has mining friends or connections. I have contemplated that if he from Philippines he may even have connections to Asian gaming rigs either through some connection to a gaming provider and/or botnets. Gaming is really big over here.

BCX isn't based in the Philippines, and neither is he based in Northern California.

And neither are you a truth teller.  Are you looking to be incarcerated with BitcoinEXlax in the Hall of Assholes?  If not, stop with the bullshit.

You don't know what you're talking about so stay out of it.

Yeah, yeah - you're an anti-BitcoinEXploded hero, good for you.  Stop posting games or you're in the Hall, regardless of your heroic intentions.  One more bullshit mystery post and you're mouth-to-cock with the Stoli dumbass himself.  This is your last warning.

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rangedriver
Hero Member

Offline

Activity: 714
Merit: 504

 October 03, 2014, 02:36:05 AM

Again, I urge you to reconsider and to promote both a healthy mindset and action on this earth.

Why is begging more healthy than "forced evolution"? I always preferred competition and work ethic over communism.

Some FUD wild speculation follows. Really wild FUD guessing. Just sharing one of the thoughts I've had.

Apparently BCX has mining friends or connections. I have contemplated that if he from Philippines he may even have connections to Asian gaming rigs either through some connection to a gaming provider and/or botnets. Gaming is really big over here.

BCX isn't based in the Philippines, and neither is he based in Northern California.

And neither are you a truth teller.  Are you looking to be incarcerated with BitcoinEXlax in the Hall of Assholes?  If not, stop with the bullshit.

You don't know what you're talking about so stay out of it.

Yeah, yeah - you're an anti-BitcoinEXploded hero, good for you.  Stop posting games or you're in the Hall, regardless of your heroic intentions.  One more bullshit mystery post and you're mouth-to-cock with the Stoli dumbass himself.  This is your last warning.

Oh jesus I've got a last warning from an imbecile.

Could I respectfully ask you what the fuck you're talking about when you accuse me of being a bullshitter. Perhaps you'd like to:-

1. Provide context.
2. Provide evidence.

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