Bitcoin Savings and Trust is probably a Ponzi Scheme: A Petition

[nrd525]

I believe, to the best of my knowledge, that given the absence of any public financial disclosure and an extremely high rate of return that the Bitcoin Savings and Trust is a Ponzi scheme.

I'd like to make this a forum-based petition of bitcointalk users who agree with this.  I don't want to do a poll, because I want people to commit their user name to this statement.

I'm interested in seeing how many people agree with me.   I'd prefer to have any debate over this issue in a separate thread.

My theory is that if you want to develop community, then you need to figure out who to trust and what is a scam.  Bitcoin has suffered from too many scams.

So if you agree, reply and say "I agree".

[1714136267]

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[1714136267]

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[hashking]

I believe, to the best of my knowledge, that given the absence of any public financial disclosure and an extremely high rate of return that the Bitcoin Savings and Trust is a Ponzi scheme.

I'd like to make this a forum-based petition of bitcointalk users who agree with this.  I don't want to do a poll, because I want people to commit their user name to this statement.

I'm interested in seeing how many people agree with me.   I'd prefer to have any debate over this issue in a separate thread.

My theory is that if you want to develop community, then you need to figure out who to trust and what is a scam.  Bitcoin has suffered from too many scams.

So if you agree, reply and say "I agree".

Can you please explain what your knowledge of this petition consists of to make this accusation.  Some proof will be helpful here before you make your self look bad by trying to make a very reputable forum member look bad.

[coin_toss]

I don't want to do a poll, because I'm afraid people might disagree with me. I'd prefer to have no debate in this thread.

[bitlane]

I believe, to the best of my knowledge, that given the absence of any public financial disclosure and an extremely high rate of return that the Bitcoin Savings and Trust is a Ponzi scheme.

I'd like to make this a forum-based petition of bitcointalk users who agree with this.  I don't want to do a poll, because I want people to commit their user name to this statement.

I'm interested in seeing how many people agree with me.   I'd prefer to have any debate over this issue in a separate thread.

My theory is that if you want to develop community, then you need to figure out who to trust and what is a scam.  Bitcoin has suffered from too many scams.

So if you agree, reply and say "I agree".

Is this your way of asking for a New Account referral from an existing member ?

You clearly have no concept of the actual scope of his operation, or just how much BTC people currently have invested with him.
People know who he is in real life. Due to the amount(s) in question, defaulting, for him, would essentially mean either 1 of 2 things..... Jail or Murder.
Why would anyone with public ties risk that ?

[PatrickHarnett]

Probably a ponzi scheme.  Your dividend is coming out of your capital.

lol - must have a big chip on shoulder - been arguing against people making returns for a while.

http://www.campusactivism.org/blog/node/351#comment-711

Actually, a doom-sayer from way back.


Maybe, he lost his $100 in bitcoinica, or got $10 stuck at GOX.  

Oh, it gets better with the advice: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=42267.msg531684#msg531684

I'd recommend that everyone starts off with very small trades to learn the system.

This really is funny.

[bitlane]

You know you're trolling when even bitlane disagrees with you.

LOL....

[imsaguy]

You know you're trolling when even bitlane disagrees with you.

LOL....

subed.

[ineededausername]

I believe, to the best of my knowledge, that given the absence of any public financial disclosure and an extremely high rate of return that the Bitcoin Savings and Trust is a Ponzi scheme.

I'd like to make this a forum-based petition of bitcointalk users who agree with this.  I don't want to do a poll, because I want people to commit their user name to this statement.

I'm interested in seeing how many people agree with me.   I'd prefer to have any debate over this issue in a separate thread.

My theory is that if you want to develop community, then you need to figure out who to trust and what is a scam.  Bitcoin has suffered from too many scams.

So if you agree, reply and say "I agree".

Well, I'm committing my username to the statement, "Pirate's BTCST is not a Ponzi scheme."
Also, please state your opinion on GPUMAX, a nontrivial piece of work with a nontrivial amount of hashes behind it.  Please state your opinion on, as previous posters have mentioned, Pirate's publicly known identity and address. 
Have you considered that if Pirate made it clear exactly what he was doing, everyone would be doing it?  What financial disclosure, specifically, do you want from him? 
Note that even mining gives 10% monthly returns (and more, if you use Pirate's wonderful GPUMAX service).  The Bitcoin economy is a high-yield economy.

[splatster]

I you believe it's a ponzi, all you have to do is not invest in it.
How hard it that ?

Some people seem to find this concept hard to grasp.

Have you considered that if Pirate made it clear exactly what he was doing, everyone would be doing it?  What financial disclosure, specifically, do you want from him?

He only want's access to all the addresses he uses... and the people he does business with... and his bitcoinica positions... and a small commission... and his Mt. Gox password... and his private keys.

[John (John K.)]

You know you're trolling when even bitlane disagrees with you.

Sig worthy!

[MarketNeutral]

I believe, to the best of my knowledge, that given the absence of any public financial disclosure and an extremely high rate of return that the Bitcoin Savings and Trust is a Ponzi scheme.

I'd like to make this a forum-based petition of bitcointalk users who agree with this.  I don't want to do a poll, because I want people to commit their user name to this statement.

I'm interested in seeing how many people agree with me.   I'd prefer to have any debate over this issue in a separate thread.

My theory is that if you want to develop community, then you need to figure out who to trust and what is a scam.  Bitcoin has suffered from too many scams.

So if you agree, reply and say "I agree".

I agree.

And "then don't invest" is a shoddy excuse, because it ignore the debasement of the forum and bitcoin's reputation, as well as unsuspecting investors who aren't savvy enough to realize their money is being used to steal from future investors.

Absent an explanation of how Pirate generates such profits, ponzi is the most likely explanation. Quantitatively, it's obvious from just a glance that his alpha relative to his beta against any standard benchmark puts him way beyond the Madoff level in terms of incredulity. Am I the only one that considers risk? Either Pirate is the greatest investor who's ever lived, or he's going to teach people a tough lesson in finance. Remember that people do actually make money in ponzi schemes, and that they can last for years. But they all end the same: disaster. As I mentioned in another thread, revealing the strategy of one's investing technique does not reveal the actual investing process or "give away" any substantive information. Revealing that one's fund engages in spatial arbitrage or out-of-the-money options or equity straddles tells investors nothing about how the fund allocates capital, but it does give them deeper understanding into the process.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

And it shouldn't be hard to demonstrate if it's legit.

The OP brings up a good point, because the reason we ask tough questions is because people actually get ripped off and wiped out by so-called investments that have numbers commensurate with Pirate's numbers.


Bitcoin has incredible potential. I don't want to see it sabotaged before its time and have its reputation sullied by a few dodgy "investment funds."

Nor do I want to see bitcointalk degenerate into a HYIP forum.

Satoshi developed something incredible, but these "investments" are what you all settle for?

If Pirate really is as good as claims, then he should be able to explain, at least in general terms, how he generates profits.

And if he does demonstrate that he's not running a ponzi scheme, then I'll humbly apologize.

[terrytibbs]

I also fully believe this is a ponzi scheme.

[bitlane]

I also fully believe this is a ponzi scheme.

Bullshit !

I still respect your opinion, and with whom you do business with is a decision you make solely at your own discretion, but I do ask that you reconsider.

You got turned down for an account.....I was THERE in the thread....LOL
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50822.msg658272#msg658272

[terrytibbs]

I also fully believe this is a ponzi scheme.

Bullshit !
You got turned down for an account.....I was THERE in the thread....LOL

If I believed he would default or run off today, I'd have bought Meni's anti-pirate bonds. There is still money to be made here if you play it right, but in the long term, it's a ponzi. I'm fairly certain.

[bitlane]

If I believed he would default or run off today, I'd have bought Meni's anti-pirate bonds. There is still money to be made here if you play it right, but in the long term, it's a ponzi. I'm fairly certain.

Would you like an Account Referral ?
I'm in good standing.....

I hope you realize I am screwing with you.

Remember me ? I started the 'Free TerryTibbs' from scammer status campaign.....lol

[bitlane]

For all you know, pirate uses the funds to buy cocaine in bulk in columbia
and resell it US side. That's not a ponzi. And the rate of return on it is
guaranteed to be much larger that what he pays his investors back.

I never saw 'Optional Cocaine Payments Coming Soon' in Pirate's BTCST Thread, but I still have my fingers crossed

Dare to dream Arnold.....Dare to dream (if you are not Western Canadian, you will have no idea as to the reference)

[MarketNeutral]

If Pirate really is as good as claims, then he should be able to explain, at least in general terms, how he generates profits.

Q: What are my coins used for?
A: Coins are primarily used for local transactions but may also include the following:

• Market Arbitrage
• Private Loans To Network Members

And if he does demonstrate that he's not running a ponzi scheme, then I'll humbly apologize.

How would you propose he demonstrate he isn't a ponzi?

By actually demonstrating he knows what he's talking about. If he can do that, show backdated examples, and explain his models, then I'll get him a six to seven figure job working for a hedge fund. I know a few quants that would pay top dollar for his legitimate trading strategies.

Local transactions? Seriously? Market arbitrage? Private loans? That can mean anything. Here, watch me take a 100 dollar bill from one pocket and put it in my other pocket. Why not Unicorn Arbitrage?


What Pirate fails to understand is that his returns are outliers relative to all other legit investments. How many standard deviations does it take before this sinks in?


I'm sure Pirate will continue to show great returns and make people money, but those profits likely come from the people who lose everything at the end.


You can lead a horse to water......

Bitcoin has incredible potential. I don't want to see it sabotaged before its time and have its reputation sullied by a few dodgy "investment funds."

First: if it is indeed a ponzi and people lose their shirt, I don't see how
this will affect the usefulness of bitcoin nor sabotage it. In particular, if
this one is not a ponzi, be sure there will be one organized at some point.
Bitcoin will survive in spite of those, mostly because there coming around
is inevitable.

Another way to think about it is: Ponzis have been wrought for years and
that did not affect the value of the US dollar (except perhaps the one that
is currently being operated by the fed).

Second: your proof is that no normal investment can ever give that kind
of returns, therefore the scheme must be a ponzi. How do you know that
it is a "normal" investment ?

For all you know, pirate uses the funds to buy cocaine in bulk in columbia
and resell it US side. That's not a ponzi. And the rate of return on it is
guaranteed to be much larger that what he pays his investors back.

Without going to such extremes, he could also be laundering money. I don't
know what rate that goes for, but it's likely in the ballpark of the return he
offers his investors.

In other words: it could be many things, and until you bring some sort of
proof to the table, you don't know a thing. If you're uncomfortable with the
whole thing, just don't invest.

Money laundering and cocaine...yeah, that's much better than a ponzi scheme.  

More reliable, I suppose.

But a red herring nonetheless.

Not that I care what other people do with their free time. To each his own, but am I the only one that wants to see bitcoin succeed as a currency that's actually used in everyday commerce, not just shady transactions? Go ahead and launder money and buy cocaine for all I care, but here let's focus instead on what Pirate actually claims.

And why should I bring proof to the table, when I'm not the one claiming such absurd investment returns?

God forbid someone should ask questions about a smoke and mirrors investment fund!

[MarketNeutral]

Something in this direction would be nice.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79298.msg881737#msg881737





Okay, I've made my point.

At the end of the day, people are free to invest any way they wish.

[JoelKatz]

How would you propose he demonstrate he isn't a ponzi?

Only Pirate can answer that question. Without knowing what Pirate's actually doing, there's no way to know how he could demonstrate it wasn't a Ponzi scheme.. It depends on precisely how what he's doing is different from a Ponzi scheme. Presumably, something about that difference would be provable. If it's literally impossible to prove it's not a Ponzi scheme, then it's a Ponzi scheme. If two things are indistinguishable, then they're the same thing.

[PatrickHarnett]

How would you propose he demonstrate he isn't a ponzi?

Only Pirate can answer that question. Without knowing what Pirate's actually doing, there's no way to know how he could demonstrate it wasn't a Ponzi scheme.. It depends on precisely how what he's doing is different from a Ponzi scheme. Presumably, something about that difference would be provable. If it's literally impossible to prove it's not a Ponzi scheme, then it's a Ponzi scheme. If two things are indistinguishable, then they're the same thing.

I'll quote Joel's post just because it's valuable- I''l read it again later.  (mega respect attracting his attention to this corner of the world)

Ever think Pirate or (fill in blank - I know who he is, but you ass is too lazy to work it out) enjoys the speculation.  I've paid serious coin for fun, 1% would be worth it.

Friday night - good quality vodka (paid for by coins), and P@40 is just one of many schemes in the game.  Get a life - it's just small - many more out there, but people too stupid to look.

(disclaimer - the Starfish blah blah vodka blah)