GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :)

[jackbox]

I don't know if it's a security as per SEC, but it is definitely a financial product such as a CD or a bond. The CEO confirmed this in his usual non-committal way when someone suggested that on HT. Nothing to do with hardware/software, just like your bank deposit is not about hardware/software.

A bond is a security.

A CD is a bank deposit regulated even more than a security.  I think GAW would be better off staking it as a security versus a bank deposit.

on the 19th paybase will launch and josh will say you cant trade paycoin for btc yet but please stake

Doesn't matter. According to the TOS Paycoin has no value and staking will guarantee you exactly zero coins!   LOL!

Yes, that is funny shit. Josh is cracking me up with the new TOS.

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[suchmoon]

I don't know if it's a security as per SEC, but it is definitely a financial product such as a CD or a bond. The CEO confirmed this in his usual non-committal way when someone suggested that on HT. Nothing to do with hardware/software, just like your bank deposit is not about hardware/software.

I don't think it's a financial instrument because crypto isn't "money" from a regulatory standpoint.

If I'm a physicist working on a hard problem that requires data from a hard problem I've already solved, so I rent space on a huge mainframe to do the calculations, is that like a CD or a bond? No, because that data isn't currency. It's an asset with value, but it's not currency. That's like saying planting seeds is like a CD or a bond. Or making widgets.

The more I think about it, the more (3) kind of stands out. There you're not renting anything because "mining" ZenPool involves things like taking money from renting hashpower to other companies, which pretty much sounds like a security under the scope of the SEC.

I think based on how Hashstaker is marketed it's not "crypto" and does not depend on computational resources any more than a bank account or a bond. It might be marketed as something confusingly novel, but the fact is that you put money in and take more money out, and with GAW starting to "sell" PayCoin on Monday it looks like a lot of people will be putting USD in and expecting to get USD out. Also the TOS risk disclosures posted a few posts back sound very much like investment risk disclosures.

[pd62512005]

I have been reading everything Gaza writes recently and it struck me. He absolutely believes everything he is saying!
I had an old girl friend like this once.
Nothing she said was ever true so some people thought she was a pathological liar,
however she stated that they were completely wrong,
she just "changed her mind a lot".

The shills over on HT have gotten out of hand, they are desperate to keep prices pumped up while they bail out of their remaining investments.
For most of them that means paycoin launch and BTC conversion enabled so they can cash out against the "WALL".
The non-morons have all caught on now and they are pushing each other to greater and greater heights of idiocy trying to pump up the crapcoin in hopes of getting out with a profit.

your as dumb as the idiot saying "wheres the public wallet? why havent the released it?" go smoke some more poles

[10BTCaDay]

The thing is.. if Josh runs away will all the money while leaving everyone with nothing he is FUCKED.
He has to support it at $20/piece or he won't be able to walk outside anymore, he would have to move to a remote island.

Just how 'Jason' of PBMining is probably hiding whilst scared for his life.

[crashoveride54902]

I don't know if it's a security as per SEC, but it is definitely a financial product such as a CD or a bond. The CEO confirmed this in his usual non-committal way when someone suggested that on HT. Nothing to do with hardware/software, just like your bank deposit is not about hardware/software.

A bond is a security.

A CD is a bank deposit regulated even more than a security.  I think GAW would be better off staking it as a security versus a bank deposit.

on the 19th paybase will launch and josh will say you cant trade paycoin for btc yet but please stake

ya i'd put money on that...make a bitbet

[jackbox]

I have been reading everything Gaza writes recently and it struck me. He absolutely believes everything he is saying!
I had an old girl friend like this once.
Nothing she said was ever true so some people thought she was a pathological liar,
however she stated that they were completely wrong,
she just "changed her mind a lot".

The shills over on HT have gotten out of hand, they are desperate to keep prices pumped up while they bail out of their remaining investments.
For most of them that means paycoin launch and BTC conversion enabled so they can cash out against the "WALL".
The non-morons have all caught on now and they are pushing each other to greater and greater heights of idiocy trying to pump up the crapcoin in hopes of getting out with a profit.

your as dumb as the idiot saying "wheres the public wallet? why havent the released it?" go smoke some more poles

Hi Josh. Love your new user name.

[eightcylinders]

As far as cloud mining goes, read the Howey case I have cited both over at HT and here.  In that case, the argument was that they were just renting an orchard and orchard management time from the promoter.  The Supreme Court was not impressed with that argument and stated it very clearly: any interest in profits gained through purchase (without participation in the business) is a security.  Note that it would not be a security if the machines were owned by the buyer of the cloud mining service OR if there was participation such as in choosing pools.

I am familiar with the Howey case (and the Shavers case, which is where it came up). Buying a non-Zen solo hashlet is a different thing because what you're primarily buying is processing time. It's like buying time on a mainframe back in the 80s. Although there might be a small amount of maintenance, the computer is already set up, and you're renting timeslices on an item. In Howey and Shavers, the investors were primarily buying the efforts of people (harvesting, selling, etc.). Here, you're buying time with items.

Now, ZenPool is different because he's admitted that he does other activities that create the profits enjoyed by those "mining" the pool. That's where the Howey test scores big. For the other solos, I don't see it.

Agree, that is why I focused (3) on Zens and Primes.  I still think the others are *likely* securities though because the ToS make it very clear that you are not renting or buying anything. And statements by Josh make clear that he is paying "return based on" the profits of the listed pools; e.g., it is very different from a cloud mining operation. 

Consider an analogy.  I say buy a "Fundlet" for $100.  The Fundlet will come in flavors: Vanguard 500, Fidelity Contra, etc.  I will pay you daily based on the profits of those funds.  Would anyone seriously argue that the Fundlet isn't a security?  How can a Hashlet be any different??

[WaffleMaster]

What they're doing IS illegal. I'm sure not many with a solid head on their shoulders can dispute that. Companies cannot get around the law just by stating things in their ToS. Take BFL for example. Their ToS included "All transactions are final and BFL will not be liable for xyz of the service or product offered." Well, reality check, you are liable. You lied to the people who supported you. You convinced everybody that you had no problems. GAW will go down because they actually are selling securities, ones that are impossible to follow through with. No security is ever going to give you that high of a percentage. Why? Because it would bankrupt them, even on a small user base of ~200,000 at GAW. Don't ridicule people on their poor mistakes. Try to help them to have a different thought process so we can all avoid further instances like this.

[PhiPhi]

Well he could just sell all GAW's share of coins against his own buywall 'sorry guys we tried but the dumpers got us' :grinning:

[bitpop]

It's fascinating seeing these people begging Josh to stake Bitcoin too, on one hand they don't give a shit about paycoin, on the other they have no clue what they're doing except becoming millionaires.

Remember Microsoft is only testing Bitcoin in beta, once released they'll switch to paycoin, but they're under nda like target and Walmart.

[truth_]

Don't ridicule people on their poor mistakes. Try to help them to have a different thought process so we can all avoid further instances like this.

That's the thing.  The warning signs are all there and out in the open.  Many of the largest GAW supporters have publicly left while leaving a warning on HT yet these people still follow blindly.
What ways can we help them have a different through process when they are all consumed with greed?  It is truly sad.

[bumpershot]

I think based on how Hashstaker is marketed it's not "crypto" and does not depend on computational resources any more than a bank account or a bond. It might be marketed as something confusingly novel, but the fact is that you put money in and take more money out, and with GAW starting to "sell" PayCoin on Monday it looks like a lot of people will be putting USD in and expecting to get USD out. Also the TOS risk disclosures posted a few posts back sound very much like investment risk disclosures.

Consider an analogy.  I say buy a "Fundlet" for $100.  The Fundlet will come in flavors: Vanguard 500, Fidelity Contra, etc.  I will pay you daily based on the profits of those funds.  Would anyone seriously argue that the Fundlet isn't a security?  How can a Hashlet be any different??

You can't just black box it or any activity that ever involves resources and profit is a "security". It matters that it not just depends on computational resources but actually consists of computational resources. That's what a non-Zen solo hashlet is.

Now, you might not believe that, in which case there could be some kind of violation. But based on the evidence out there, non-Zen solo hashlets do not rely on the efforts of people besides occasional incidental maintenance.

Other than ZenPool and misrepresenting the risk involved in PayCoin price support, I don't see a lot here. ZenPool could kind of be a big deal, though. Even with ZenPool, though, there's a chance it could be some kind of subleasing arrangement, although it's very difficult to construct scenarios where there's not some kind of securitization.

[bitpop]

Don't ridicule people on their poor mistakes. Try to help them to have a different thought process so we can all avoid further instances like this.

That's the thing.  The warning signs are all there and out in the open.  Many of the largest GAW supporters have publicly left while leaving a warning on HT yet these people still follow blindly.
What ways can we help them have a different through process when they are all consumed with greed?  It is truly sad.

I've tried to help people on Twitter but they block me, to attack Josh we must attack his army. They're no longer civilians, many are recruiting more victims.

[WaffleMaster]

Don't ridicule people on their poor mistakes. Try to help them to have a different thought process so we can all avoid further instances like this.

That's the thing.  The warning signs are all there and out in the open.  Many of the largest GAW supporters have publicly left while leaving a warning on HT yet these people still follow blindly.
What ways can we help them have a different through process when they are all consumed with greed?  It is truly sad.

Yes, you can't protect people from their deadly vices (aka 7 deadly sins): wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony. They'll learn when these things cause them harm beyond any other they've experienced up until that point. Such is the way of learning the hard way. What we can infer about their "CEO" is that he is a greedy, insanely prideful, gluttonous individual who will enact wrath upon anyone who simply questions him (shadow ban for you, You, and YOU!).

[vabchgent]

So we can cash out our HP on the 19th now maybe - possibly - not actually. If so wonder how many people are going to split the deck or close up shop all together.

[NeonTranceBadger]

That PaytonPeterson kid posted this
@gawceo Keep up the good work. History books will be writing about this in the future.

This gave me a good chuckle.

[truth_]

Don't ridicule people on their poor mistakes. Try to help them to have a different thought process so we can all avoid further instances like this.

That's the thing.  The warning signs are all there and out in the open.  Many of the largest GAW supporters have publicly left while leaving a warning on HT yet these people still follow blindly.
What ways can we help them have a different through process when they are all consumed with greed?  It is truly sad.

Yes, you can't protect people from their deadly vices (aka 7 deadly sins): wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony. They'll learn when these things cause them harm beyond any other they've experienced up until that point. Such is the way of learning the hard way.

Sadly I agree.  As I posted previously its at the point where the only way they will learn not to play with fire is when they get burned.
Still holding out hope that it doesn't come to that as I know many have indeed broken the #1 rule of investing and have invested much more than they can afford to lose.

[gefafwisp]

Don't ridicule people on their poor mistakes. Try to help them to have a different thought process so we can all avoid further instances like this.

That's the thing.  The warning signs are all there and out in the open.  Many of the largest GAW supporters have publicly left while leaving a warning on HT yet these people still follow blindly.
What ways can we help them have a different through process when they are all consumed with greed?  It is truly sad.

I've tried to help people on Twitter but they block me, to attack Josh we must attack his army. They're no longer civilians, many are recruiting more victims.

As if you care... You just want to see GAW crash and burn for your own twisted amusement. If you actually cared about people's investments you'd do what you can to help make GAW a success.

[WaffleMaster]

Don't ridicule people on their poor mistakes. Try to help them to have a different thought process so we can all avoid further instances like this.

That's the thing.  The warning signs are all there and out in the open.  Many of the largest GAW supporters have publicly left while leaving a warning on HT yet these people still follow blindly.
What ways can we help them have a different through process when they are all consumed with greed?  It is truly sad.

I've tried to help people on Twitter but they block me, to attack Josh we must attack his army. They're no longer civilians, many are recruiting more victims.

As if you care... You just want to see GAW crash and burn for your own twisted amusement. If you actually cared about people's investments you'd do what you can to help make GAW a success.

The insane delusions continue.   I'm interested to try and know what could anybody possibly do at this stage to make GAW a success?

[dekay]

anyone who upgraded there hashlets are officially fucked on the 19th the ponzi collaspes or josh says delays or u cant sell paycoin for btc or anything just stake itll come later hows vc cantor fitzgerald going to take this stuart fraser u cant even sell upgraded hashlets tmw josh pulls more hashstakers out of his ass for solos there unlimited