Scam Warning: WoodCollector

[WoodCollector]

Guys, look i appreciate it, i really do, its really nice for you to stand up for me against this guy. But he is missing a little bit of information that people don't know unless they have commissioned a piece from me, and i am sure my clients will be jumping in to settle this down once they get online today. Any of my clients from here can tell you that i send them pictures along the way starting from the original sketch of the design concept (if they want to see it being done, a few wanted it to be a surprise), to carving progress, to applying the tung oil and linseed oil, to applying the finish coats of UV sealer and Spar right down to the finished product before it is posted on the forum, they know my art is authentic, as they paid for it.

Its really nice to see some of you standing to my defense, but some people will still continue to whip a dead mule long after it dies. Nubbins was not aware that my clients get this information as their piece is being created, as none of you really were unless you commissioned something, and soon once they get online this will come to rest and he will have to find some other argument to make, hopefully with someone else.

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[qwk]

I would say that what he is doing is dishonest if he is lying about how he produces his art.

Absolutely. Just imagine me digitally printing something on canvas, then smearing some transparent varnish over it and calling that a hand-painted picture.

I do however think there would still be a market for his work if he had previously disclosed how he makes his art. I have somewhat thought about buying a piece from him.

Sure, there's definitely a market for that. It's nice work, after all.

Does anyone have any kind of estimate as to the price difference between what he would generally be able to sell his work for if these facts were previously disclosed verses what he actually sold for?

Somewhere on the order of 2 magnitudes, i.e. 50$ instead of $5000.

[efarah2549]

I am not wasting any more of my time on this, when one of my clients wants something, a picture or video or something, message me. Continuing to argue with this guy is an exercise in futility.

Well you should since it's your reputation under attack here which would be bad for business.  If this really is as common as you claim, and you were as legit as you would like to lead one shouldn't you have a site with some kind of portfolio hosted online?  I mean I've never been in the market for anything of the art type but your entire operation seems really too fly by night to be legitimate.

Its really nice to see some of you standing to my defense

A sudden -5 to your trade rep and "Warning: Trade with extreme caution!" hints at a little less support from the community than you lead on

[markj113]

I would say that what he is doing is dishonest if he is lying about how he produces his art.

Absolutely. Just imagine me digitally printing something on canvas, then smearing some transparent varnish over it and calling that a hand-painted picture.

I do however think there would still be a market for his work if he had previously disclosed how he makes his art. I have somewhat thought about buying a piece from him.

Sure, there's definitely a market for that. It's nice work, after all.

Does anyone have any kind of estimate as to the price difference between what he would generally be able to sell his work for if these facts were previously disclosed verses what he actually sold for?

Somewhere on the order of 2 magnitudes, i.e. 50$ instead of $5000.

One piece sold for $14,000 -

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=864472

[nubbins]

shouldn't you have a site with some kind of portfolio hosted online?

It's right here: https://www.sansleaf.com/

A sudden -5 to your trade rep and "Warning: Trade with extreme caution!" hints at a little less support from the community than you lead on

In fairness, that -5 is completely due to my single negative trust rating. Default Trust is broken, kids, and this is one more reason why.

[redsn0w]

Interesting challenge, looking forward to the response 

Why question something that is good? 

Because some people have paid up to $14,000 for the end results.

Knew nothing about wood laser engraving but have to admit the end results look very similar -

Are you serious ? 14k dollars , this is too expensive.

[efarah2549]

shouldn't you have a site with some kind of portfolio hosted online?

It's right here: https://www.sansleaf.com/

A sudden -5 to your trade rep and "Warning: Trade with extreme caution!" hints at a little less support from the community than you lead on

In fairness, that -5 is completely due to my single negative trust rating. Default Trust is broken, kids, and this is one more reason why.

My first post in a couple years and I show off what a noob I am  

That sansleaf site is just a gallery, there should be a lot of different manufactures/brands there like but everywhere I look around the site is just blank or empty.  Like if you hoover brands on the tool bar it shows 5 spots saying 'YOU LOGO HERE", and the Women category is just completely blank.  Even when I click on sale there is nothing there.  It's like there is no actual content on this site but a mash of some foreign language and a generic template.

[michaeladair]

Are you serious ? 14k dollars , this is too expensive.

90% of the cost was due to the cost of the wood. The rest was for the work hours he put on it. He could've just bought some shitty plywood but that was not what the buyer asked for.

[smoothie]

When I make my chainmaille jewellery is it not hand made because I didn't mine, smelt and coil the metal myself....

Nobody expects him to go out into the woods and cut down trees.
But hand-carved is definitely not the same as "I used my hands to fire up the laser".

That last part gave me a chuckle.

I asked these similar questions a few months back when he first started posting.

When I got to the point that his work looked very similar to laser engraving the discussion quickly got pushed off to Skype or email which I never got around to.

@wood collector, take a camera and video tape an entire piece you have done at the same caliber of your previous pieces. Then fast forward it in a time lapse to show you actually did it with your hands.

To me your work does look laser engraved and not hand carved. Honest opinion.

[markj113]

Are you serious ? 14k dollars , this is too expensive.

90% of the cost was due to the cost of the wood. The rest was for the work hours he put on it. He could've just bought some shitty plywood but that was not what the buyer asked for.

If this is the same type of wood im not seeing anything near $14k -

https://www.gilmerwood.com/items.php?species=Pink+Ivory&CID=38

p.s. are you saying that at 90% the wood alone cost $12,600

[WoodCollector]

I am not wasting any more of my time on this, when one of my clients wants something, a picture or video or something, message me. Continuing to argue with this guy is an exercise in futility.

Well you should since it's your reputation under attack here which would be bad for business.  If this really is as common as you claim, and you were as legit as you would like to lead one shouldn't you have a site with some kind of portfolio hosted online?  I mean I've never been in the market for anything of the art type but your entire operation seems really too fly by night to be legitimate.

Its really nice to see some of you standing to my defense

A sudden -5 to your trade rep and "Warning: Trade with extreme caution!" hints at a little less support from the community than you lead on

Efrah, My reputation isn't really under attack, its one guy leading a charge from the usual suspects. This accusation was started a few hours ago, the bulk of my clients have not even logged in since this who parade of nonsense started.

further, as stated since day one, i do not use my brand on my bitcoin pieces. Thats not going to change just because someone wants to start getting mouthy here.

next, a quick -5 to my rating..... its been a few hours, all it takes is one negative rating from someone on the high default trust list and even the best ratings will fall. It only gets worse before it gets better, and the faults in the rating system have been discussed many times on the forum. I still have WAY more positive trust than negative on my feedback if you go transaction for transaction, a weighted trust system only gives power to people who have been here longer the right to tarnish other people because they want something fun to do for a day. 

and finally, "my reputation being under attack being bad for business". I think you misunderstand the reason i am here. I came to the bitcoin community after getting some free bitcoin and wanting to find a way to buy some wood with it. That is my business here, and these accusations do not affect that in the slightest bit, i have already sourced out a supply chain from forum members and saved tons of money in doing it this accusation has no impact on that. I am not here to run a business of selling art, i make things when people ask for them. Occasionally i make something when i have some free time, and list it for sale. If it all ended tomorrow it makes no difference to me as i still will continue buying wood for bitcoin for months to come. The only reason i even bothered to step in here with this crazy stuff that Nubbins wants to spout off with is because his actions could affect the art that my clients already hold and that is not fair to them. I've been here 3 months and done tens of thousands worth of sales of art, the fact that it took 3 months for someone to say something only shows me that the bulk of everyone already knows Nubbins is just running his mouth. This community is riddled with scams, and people are very quick to call them out when they happen, after 3 months i think someone would have said something by now if they really felt that way. Not to mention one of my best clients here is a Machinest by trade and would have known right away if his piece was done by a machine, CNC or laser or whatever the accusation of the minute is. Being a member of the community for much longer than i, and with a reputation for looking out for peoples best intrests, he would have said something right away if he thought something was fishy in the slightest bit.

[smoothie]

I will be taking bets , who says that he will upload the video and who say's he wont.

Nah for serious I'm looking foward to see if this is really hand made something I doubt.

What is "hand made".  If he carves out everything and uses a machine for the fine details is it not hand made then?  If a machine cuts out the rough shape and he does the rest is it not hand made then?

The problem is that he has gone out of his way to hide his use of a machine, while at the same time letting people think it's done completely by hand.

He exclusively uses the word "carve" to describe his process, as you can see here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=868931.0;all

Here's a buyer saying "The hand-carved detail is astonishing": https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=868954.msg9777724#msg9777724

WC's response? "Thanks". Not "Oh, it was actually done with a laser, not carved."

The point is NOT how he makes the pieces, but how he represents them as being made.

If he was selling "beautiful hand-lacquered and polished laser-cut wooden bitcoin pieces", this thread would not exist.

I can see your point in why you doubt his claims. I have an epilog laser myself and his pieces look identically similar in nature and in detail as I've lasered many intricate wood pieces just for fun.

[michaeladair]

WoodCollector should take bets on wether he does it by hand or by laser... Then bet on himself. Easy money if you get that video made

[BitcoinDistributor]

Stop with the spouts of how you're reputable and all and just post a video of you making these legendary engravings. Hell its a good marketing tool too as you'll prove more people wrong and prove those who might be wanting to buy but have slight doubts about how the art is made, into buying a piece from you.

[redsn0w]

Are you serious ? 14k dollars , this is too expensive.

90% of the cost was due to the cost of the wood. The rest was for the work hours he put on it. He could've just bought some shitty plywood but that was not what the buyer asked for.

If this is the same type of wood im not seeing anything near $14k -

* https://www.gilmerwood.com/items.php?species=Pink+Ivory&CID=38

p.s. are you saying that at 90% the wood alone cost $12,600

I'm not a "wood expert" but the prices in that *site is too different than the 14'000 dollars. Maybe the idea of a short video is great .

[WoodCollector]

When I make my chainmaille jewellery is it not hand made because I didn't mine, smelt and coil the metal myself....

Nobody expects him to go out into the woods and cut down trees.
But hand-carved is definitely not the same as "I used my hands to fire up the laser".

That last part gave me a chuckle.

I asked these similar questions a few months back when he first started posting.

When I got to the point that his work looked very similar to laser engraving the discussion quickly got pushed off to Skype or email which I never got around to.

@wood collector, take a camera and video tape an entire piece you have done at the same caliber of your previous pieces. Then fast forward it in a time lapse to show you actually did it with your hands.

To me your work does look laser engraved and not hand carved. Honest opinion.

Smoothie like i said, your entitled to your opinion and i never held it against you, I have messaged one of my clients and asked if he minds if i share a video of his piece being carved. i don't imagine he will have a problem with it, but you know as well as i do that is not going to stop the downward spiral here. It really dosnt stop until Nubbins gets tired of me and moves on to someone else. We see it all the time on this forum.

[markj113]

WoodCollector seems to be very vague and hasn't directly answered the question in the original accusation.

Are his pieces hand carved as he originally stated or are they done by laser.

[michaeladair]

Are you serious ? 14k dollars , this is too expensive.

90% of the cost was due to the cost of the wood. The rest was for the work hours he put on it. He could've just bought some shitty plywood but that was not what the buyer asked for.

If this is the same type of wood im not seeing anything near $14k -

* https://www.gilmerwood.com/items.php?species=Pink+Ivory&CID=38

p.s. are you saying that at 90% the wood alone cost $12,600

I'm not a "wood expert" but the prices in that *site is too different than the 14'000 dollars. Maybe the idea of a short video is great .

I believe it's the rare watermellon variety of the Pink Ivory wood that makes if even more rare... WoodCollecotr would you like to reiterate on where you got the price of the wood?

[smoothie]

If he carves out everything and uses a machine for the fine details is it not hand made then?

Hand-made, partially. Hand-carved, no.

If a machine cuts out the rough shape and he does the rest is it not hand made then?

Hand-made, partially. Hand-carved, yes.
It's that easy, you do the carving part by hand, it's hand-carved. Duh!

Alright lets say it's hand made and mostly carved + machine for the fine details.  He has always delivered and great product now we are going to attack his reputation because he is exaggerating..  Sounds kind of like a bored soccer mom looking for someone to harass... :S

Technically he is not lying.. he did carve some by hand.  Some of it was made by hand thus it was hand made..

Misrepresentation of it being hand-carved isn't being honest. I took his statement to mean he hand carved the entire wood piece and not just some of it. There is a big difference in those two statements.

[fishb0ne]

I made my way here via Reddit, where the news of this has spread.

WoodCollector, the easiest and fastest way to settle this for everybody is to take a few short minutes needed to set up a camera on a small tripod, and take a recording of a carving of any random fine detail from one of the pieces you produce, such as the small font that some have argued is impossible to get such perfection without a laser engraving. That way not only will you put the accusations to be, if they are in fact untrue, but you will also drum up your reputation and show off your skill. There are several issues with relying on clients to chime in:
-if none of them do, it doesn't necessarily mean you are in fact a fraud; it just means no clients have chimed in
-if several people chime in, we would still need to factually establish they were in fact clients
-there is an inherent psychological issue at play here; somebody that has been defrauded and suspects in doing so, may engage in denial and confirmation bias in order to supress their doubt and justify having spent hundreds of dollars

This isn't so much a discussion over the quality of the piece, but rather how it is marketed and what expectations were set as to what people are actually buying. It seems to me that what needs to be disclosed is whether or not any laser etching/engraving/whatever is involved at all.

I am just a sideliner here offering suggestions.