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Author Topic: [GLBSE] BDT - 3% weekly interest bond, backed by Bitdaytrade  (Read 51673 times)
Meni Rosenfeld
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September 26, 2012, 08:23:30 PM
 #361

I have no problem with the 200 btc going to you, however, the last two coupons were not part of the "repayment" right?  i.e. those were dividends not counting toward the 1 btc owed per bond
This is correct.

He should pay 2000 soon and if he does we'll figure out the exact distribution.
Any ETA on this?
His deadline is tomorrow. We have negotiated this between Alberto, Nefario and me and it is extremely annoying to be asked for updates every day. This will not be resolved in a timescale of days.

meni represented the asset to investors. Investors have lost out.
I managed the IPO; I consulted for Alberto and helped him with the PR, and clarified that this is the extent of my involvement.

I did not give any sort of guarantee for the investment. I clarified that I have no intimate familiarity of Alberto. I clarified that people should invest based on their own trust in Alberto and not based solely on "Meni said its ok". I didn't even recommend buying the bond.

I did say I have confidence in Alberto, which was a poor choice of words, but still does not give me any more obligation than an analyst giving stock advice - he doesn't pay out of pocket if it goes bad.

I have also later recommended to sell the bond and indirectly used my own funds to facilitate the buyback. While the funds were insufficient for everyone to sell, everyone who did choose to take my advice got to. Those who ignored it have absolutely no claim against me.

I've done much more for the resolution of this than is my duty. The problem is that the more you do, the more people think you are obligated to do.

I grow weary of having to defend myself, it really amounts to people refusing to own up to their investment decisions and looking for someone to blame.

Meni should be doing the honorable thing here and putting himself in 2nd creditor position AFTER the bondholders.
I did not end up with 4000 BTC stake by choice, it's not really the kind of money I can afford to trust with any one person. My original investment was 2000 BTC, and while it increased a bit over time, most of the rest was due to money I gave Alberto in a desperate attempt to reach a quicker resolution, with a clearly stated expectation that it should be paid back to me soon. I'm well within my right to require paying me back to the 3000 BTC level before the public debt, and I'm not exercising this right.

The distinction between my debt and bondholders is arbitrary. I used to be a bondholder and I'm sure if that remained the case there would be no question that I should have equal share of the returns. The reason I exchanged the bonds for external debt is that the coupon payments were too much for Alberto and I wanted to help by waiving my right to the coupons.

And this brings us back to the "Meni is putting himself ahead of the bondholders!" conspiracy theory. A week hasn't even passed since the negotiations started. Alberto merely paid a token of good faith to encourage Nefario to remove the docs; we haven't formally discussed the distribution and I figured that could be deferred until he pays a more significant amount (which at that point would probably be proportional). But with the incessant second-guessing it's extremely difficult to carry out any sort of planning.

What gives me an unpleasant feeling is that he is still not communicating on the matter in an open way...
Look, you may be thinking that sharing publicly every bit of detail of internal negotiations the minute they are discussed is the right way to do things, but it's not. Not even a week (with its first deadline) has passed since the initial negotiations. When I have something to report I report it.

Nefario did not help out the shareholders here by posting the scammers passport in public. The scammer now has the legal right to refuse to work with GLBSE or at least delay while lawyers clear up that mess. This is only going to get messy. Posting the passport in public is a crime in EU.
You're damned if you negotiate peacefully, you're damned if you negotiate aggressively, you're sure as hell damned if you take legal action and it takes years to recover a fraction of the debt...

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September 27, 2012, 12:29:35 AM
 #362

You're damned if you negotiate peacefully, you're damned if you negotiate aggressively, you're sure as hell damned if you take legal action and it takes years to recover a fraction of the debt...

As you said yourself, it hasn't even been a week so how can we expect updates.

In the same vein, surely you can see how some would think Alberto was doxxed too hastily. It's pretty much the same issue.

It's not like Alberto was going to IPO another scam asset in the intervening time. He couldn't even do this one without you.

~pyotr

edit: forgot to say - I also think the community is underestimating the stressfulness of the position you're in. But then again, those of us who invested in BDT bonds are in quite a quandry. Both sides have legitimate concerns... It's ugliest when both people butting heads have legitimate concerns. No hard feelings.

Personally, if this thread is tense, I don't blame anyone but Alberto. It didn't help that he himself came into the thread and complained about being doxxed without even saying so much as "Sorry guys!"

If Nefario posts your passport and it gets you to actually come out of hiding, aren't you just encouraging him?
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September 27, 2012, 04:24:35 AM
 #363

and what about an update on people that had a deposit using the service?

Bitcoinica still has not given me 50% of my claim of 600 BTC
INTERSANGO can go down with bitcoinica for abandoning customers
Alberto Armandi is a SCAMMER
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September 27, 2012, 06:37:41 AM
 #364

and what about an update on people that had a deposit using the service?
This one is more sensitive because knowledge of deposits relies on Alberto's database. Other than repeatedly demanding a report on completed and pending withdrawals there's not much we can do.

Also I have now started this thread, please post in it.

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September 27, 2012, 11:25:19 PM
 #365

Are there already plans on how the repayment is going to take place? By means of "dividents" on GLBSE, or something else? Btw I can't seem to find the asset on the market anymore, and when I click the link in my portfolio nothing happens.

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September 28, 2012, 06:17:41 AM
 #366

No payment or other communication has arrived from Alberto, and thus Nefario will go forward pursuing legal action.

Are there already plans on how the repayment is going to take place? By means of "dividents" on GLBSE, or something else? Btw I can't seem to find the asset on the market anymore, and when I click the link in my portfolio nothing happens.
It will be GLBSE dividends. Nefario will have to see about why the asset page is inactive. In any case you should be able to see any dividends in your account's dividend history.

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September 28, 2012, 07:39:03 AM
 #367

Hopefully, people reading this thread will learn two very important lessons:

1) High yield with low risk basically doesn't exist. As the E*TRADE baby says, the probability that any such scheme will actually work out is about the same as the chances of you getting mauled by a polar bear and a regular bear on the same day.

2) Most likely, you are not nearly as good a judge of character as you think. You are used to being in a world where most people you encounter are not out to scam you and where there are very real consequences for dishonesty. But you acting in a world that is fully of scammers and where there don't seem to be consequences for dishonesty. Con men know how to exploit this and are very, very good at it. (Watch a few episodes of The Real Hustle sometime.)

Also, for what it's worth, I think Meni was very careful to try not to vouch for the repayment of the bonds. His involvement did add a credibility, and I think he came through with what that credibility promised. He acted, and continues to act, as an advocate for the bond holders. I think he made some very bad decisions, trusted some people he shouldn't, and suffered as a result of people who took advantage of him. The list of good people who have done that is pretty long. I made a mistake like that myself not too long ago. Hopefully, each person will only only need this lesson once. (Actually, now that I think about it, I actually made this mistake twice, and both times over five figure dollar amounts. So I know how easily people can be made into suckers. *sigh*)

I am an employee of Ripple.
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Meni Rosenfeld
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September 28, 2012, 07:57:39 AM
 #368

Hopefully, people reading this thread will learn two very important lessons:

1) High yield with low risk basically doesn't exist. As the E*TRADE baby says, the probability that any such scheme will actually work out is about the same as the chances of you getting mauled by a polar bear and a regular bear on the same day.

2) Most likely, you are not nearly as good a judge of character as you think. You are used to being in a world where most people you encounter are not out to scam you and where there are very real consequences for dishonesty. But you acting in a world that is fully of scammers and where there don't seem to be consequences for dishonesty. Con men know how to exploit this and are very, very good at it. (Watch a few episodes of The Real Hustle sometime.)

Also, for what it's worth, I think Meni was very careful to try not to vouch for the repayment of the bonds. His involvement did add a credibility, and I think he came through with what that credibility promised. He acted, and continues to act, as an advocate for the bond holders. I think he made some very bad decisions, trusted some people he shouldn't, and suffered as a result of people who took advantage of him. The list of good people who have done that is pretty long. I made a mistake like that myself not too long ago. Hopefully, each person will only only need this lesson once. (Actually, now that I think about it, I actually made this mistake twice, and both times over five figure dollar amounts. So I know how easily people can be made into suckers. *sigh*)
This seems like a good opportunity to mention that you have been by far the most reasonable outspoken critic of the recent state of the Bitcoin lending landscape, and I wish I had paid more attention to your warnings.

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September 28, 2012, 08:43:27 AM
 #369

I am currently trying to offload some real estate property to estinguish completely the debt as soon as possible. I sincerely hope events like those mentioned in the first part of this post will not happen again.

What did you do with the coins that now you have to sell real estate to pay the debt back?

If the funds were used to generate profits for bitdaytrade, then they should still be deposited at its brokering service (which you once claimed was instaforex, but then renegged and said you only get the gold price feed from instaforex but hedge the positions using a "custom platform").

You should have staged a "hack" where the coins, which were in cold storage, still got stolen from a deleted wallet file (deleted but not purged, aka still in the recycling bin).

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September 28, 2012, 08:45:52 AM
 #370

Hopefully, people reading this thread will learn two very important lessons:

1) High yield with low risk basically doesn't exist. As the E*TRADE baby says, the probability that any such scheme will actually work out is about the same as the chances of you getting mauled by a polar bear and a regular bear on the same day.

2) Most likely, you are not nearly as good a judge of character as you think. You are used to being in a world where most people you encounter are not out to scam you and where there are very real consequences for dishonesty. But you acting in a world that is fully of scammers and where there don't seem to be consequences for dishonesty. Con men know how to exploit this and are very, very good at it. (Watch a few episodes of The Real Hustle sometime.)

Also, for what it's worth, I think Meni was very careful to try not to vouch for the repayment of the bonds. His involvement did add a credibility, and I think he came through with what that credibility promised. He acted, and continues to act, as an advocate for the bond holders. I think he made some very bad decisions, trusted some people he shouldn't, and suffered as a result of people who took advantage of him. The list of good people who have done that is pretty long. I made a mistake like that myself not too long ago. Hopefully, each person will only only need this lesson once. (Actually, now that I think about it, I actually made this mistake twice, and both times over five figure dollar amounts. So I know how easily people can be made into suckers. *sigh*)


Mining companies are pretty high yielding but on the flipside they lose value faster than a $2 hooker. I hope some of the changes glbse makes going forward allows real sustainable companies to attract investment. Instead of more ponzis.

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September 28, 2012, 09:07:03 AM
 #371

Mining companies are pretty high yielding but on the flipside they lose value faster than a $2 hooker. I hope some of the changes glbse makes going forward allows real sustainable companies to attract investment. Instead of more ponzis.

Attracting investment is not a challenge for real sustainable companies. The ones with growth potential have to use a stick to fight off hordes of drooling investors. Most don't, instead they give the VC's a run for their money (pun: by running off with it).

The CPA's and "fund managers" here and on GLBSE are the laziest of all, real bottom of barrel types now coming here from the from the forums where they ran their HYIPs using LibertyReserve. At least pirate contracted someone to build GPUMax and Alberto made some plausible front-ends for bitscalper and bitdaytrade.

I really hope that GLBSE starts using LTC instead of BTC. Speaking of LTC, where are the LTC HYIPs?

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September 28, 2012, 11:05:51 AM
 #372

Mining companies are pretty high yielding but on the flipside they lose value faster than a $2 hooker. I hope some of the changes glbse makes going forward allows real sustainable companies to attract investment. Instead of more ponzis.

Attracting investment is not a challenge for real sustainable companies. The ones with growth potential have to use a stick to fight off hordes of drooling investors. Most don't, instead they give the VC's a run for their money (pun: by running off with it).

The CPA's and "fund managers" here and on GLBSE are the laziest of all, real bottom of barrel types now coming here from the from the forums where they ran their HYIPs using LibertyReserve. At least pirate contracted someone to build GPUMax and Alberto made some plausible front-ends for bitscalper and bitdaytrade.

I really hope that GLBSE starts using LTC instead of BTC. Speaking of LTC, where are the LTC HYIPs?

litecoinglobal.com isnt too bad and is LTC only. At least the price of ltc is relatively stable and doesnt devalue your shares as badly as btc.

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September 28, 2012, 01:32:15 PM
 #373

I really hope that GLBSE starts using LTC instead of BTC. Speaking of LTC, where are the LTC HYIPs?

Check out the Marketplace/Securities section of litecointalk.eu for some LTC-based "opportunities"


Sorry to take this OT... The way I see it, the real problem is that most of the "investment opportunities" around here have been in what I'd charitably call "financial" companies.

Real world stock markets started with companies that actually made something, then added service companies, and by the time derivatives came about the exchanges were well-established.

GLBSE started with a few mining companies (how many real-world mining companies are you invested in?), then shortly thereafter came a crush of insurance, pass-through, mutual fund, and derivative sellers.

Show me more than a few companies on GLBSE making and selling products.  I guess there's web hosting, but that's about it.

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September 28, 2012, 01:50:41 PM
 #374

I really hope that GLBSE starts using LTC instead of BTC. Speaking of LTC, where are the LTC HYIPs?

Check out the Marketplace/Securities section of litecointalk.eu for some LTC-based "opportunities"


Sorry to take this OT... The way I see it, the real problem is that most of the "investment opportunities" around here have been in what I'd charitably call "financial" companies.

Real world stock markets started with companies that actually made something, then added service companies, and by the time derivatives came about the exchanges were well-established.

GLBSE started with a few mining companies (how many real-world mining companies are you invested in?), then shortly thereafter came a crush of insurance, pass-through, mutual fund, and derivative sellers.

Show me more than a few companies on GLBSE making and selling products.  I guess there's web hosting, but that's about it.





There arent any glbse companies that make anything.

Bitcointorrentz at least is not a mining company and IBB seems stable. 
One of the reasons people got scammed by bitcoinrebate,Zip.A and bitdaytrade is because they seemed to offer an alternative to the turds on glbse.

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September 28, 2012, 02:46:52 PM
 #375

There arent any glbse companies that make anything.

Bitcointorrentz at least is not a mining company and IBB seems stable. 
One of the reasons people got scammed by bitcoinrebate,Zip.A and bitdaytrade is because they seemed to offer an alternative to the turds on glbse.

ASICMINER is a company that produces integrated circuits. I think ZipConf was a good idea as well, it did actually produce a service.

Actually BitDayTrade could fill the vacuum left by Bitcoinica and be very profitable. If there was any hope that it could be developed operated properly, I would likely invest in BDT. Then again, if it was properly implemented, it would never need to give away 3% per week to gather investment, would it?
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September 28, 2012, 02:57:44 PM
 #376

There arent any glbse companies that make anything.

Bitcointorrentz at least is not a mining company and IBB seems stable. 
One of the reasons people got scammed by bitcoinrebate,Zip.A and bitdaytrade is because they seemed to offer an alternative to the turds on glbse.

ASICMINER is a company that produces integrated circuits. I think ZipConf was a good idea as well, it did actually produce a service.

Actually BitDayTrade could fill the vacuum left by Bitcoinica and be very profitable. If there was any hope that it could be developed operated properly, I would likely invest in BDT. Then again, if it was properly implemented, it would never need to give away 3% per week to gather investment, would it?


No, Zipconf never worked and the dividends received came from the IPO funds to lure in more suckers. But then Alberto was involved with JRO so they could just as easily be working together as a scammer team.


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September 29, 2012, 09:56:36 AM
 #377

Would it be possible to move those theoretical OT discussions about other investments to a different thread?

Thank you.

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October 06, 2012, 10:39:03 AM
 #378

So, another week has passed... meanwhile GLBSE has been shut down and Nefario presumably faces legal consequences for operating it.

Question is:

Has any action been taken to resolve the Alberto case (Nefario announced to take legal action)?

Can BDT bondholders expect any future action by Nefario or Meni?


So since you are the only remaining non-submerged person involved in this - what's the state of affairs, Meni?

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October 06, 2012, 02:07:07 PM
 #379

I'm sorry to say but this looks pretty dire for the holders of these assets.
Lucky day for Alberto

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October 06, 2012, 05:39:57 PM
 #380

This is pathetic. 

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