Bitcoin Forum
December 05, 2016, 12:44:20 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Public STATEMENT Regarding Bitcoinica account hack at MtGox  (Read 67259 times)
davout
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1358


1davout


View Profile WWW
July 26, 2012, 09:38:01 AM
 #181

No. What they did is unprofessional, completely irresponsible (they didn't even contact the person they are claiming did something wrong--- so what is the point of the thread?), and possibly illegal.

Unlike many of the people on this forum, we act based on legal advice from seasoned lawyers.

The information disclosed here has been disclosed for some time to the people involved with Bitcoinica, but it seems that none of them has talked to Zhou about this yet, nor started any legal action (at least none that reached any of us).

Ok, so what was the advice ? Publish this kind of sensitive information on a public forum? To achieve what? That's what I thought.

Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
LightRider
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1488


I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.


View Profile WWW
July 26, 2012, 09:39:48 AM
 #182

No. What they did is unprofessional, completely irresponsible (they didn't even contact the person they are claiming did something wrong--- so what is the point of the thread?), and possibly illegal.

Unlike many of the people on this forum, we act based on legal advice from seasoned lawyers.

The information disclosed here has been disclosed for some time to the people involved with Bitcoinica, but it seems that none of them has talked to Zhou about this yet, nor started any legal action (at least none that reached any of us).

Ok, so what was the advice ? Publish this kind of sensitive information on a public forum? To achieve what? That's what I thought.


If they were entertainment industry lawyers, it probably serves to enhance the dramatainment of the bitcoinica saga.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
MagicalTux
VIP
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 617


Working on new MtGox features


View Profile WWW
July 26, 2012, 09:40:15 AM
 #183

AurumXchange is blocking funds allegedly belonging to Zhou Tong without any disclosed (until now) reason. Legal advice on AurumXchange's side was to issue a statement as soon as possible to clarify the situation as it was being made public on this very forum.
Releasing a statement to ZT about his money being frozen : sounds ok to me.
Publishing a statement to an angry mob looking for a scapegoat : probably not the smartest thing.

I highly doubt that AE's legal counsel advised them to publish anything on a public internet forum.

I guess you're up for a surprise on this one.

In absence of any legal action from the victims of this hack,
This is an assumption, not a fact.

The fact is that at this time no party has contacted us in any way to notify us of any action (we are in contact with all the parties involved in Bitcoinica). In absence of any legal context to relate to, there is only so much we can do.

we have no course of action to contact the police, but will be held responsible if funds are released then legal processing is started at a later point.
A financial institution has to freeze funds if they suspect illegal activity/ML and report it to the authorities.
I'm not saying it would have been smart to release the funds, but maybe it isn't very smart either to release this kind of information on a public forum and not report anything to the police (AFAIK you haven't done that, have you?).

I do not know the situation on that aspect, as the funds are not held with MtGox (we are merely helping with the investigation and trying to ensure the information flows correctly to the community).

Matthew N. Wright
Untrustworthy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 588


Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet


View Profile
July 26, 2012, 09:40:37 AM
 #184

No legal action = you have no right to disclose it publicly.

I'll let you discuss this with AurumXchange's attorneys if you really insist on this.

Zhou Tong, when he gets an attorney to represent him, can talk to AurumXChange's attorneys himself about the blatant breach of privacy on their part. You worry about the breach of privacy on your part.

Matthew N. Wright
Untrustworthy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 588


Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet


View Profile
July 26, 2012, 09:42:44 AM
 #185

Let this be a warning to everyone:

If your account is hacked (email or otherwise), MtGox, AurumXChange and BitInstant might start a thread calling you a thief and a hacker publicly and just leave it up to you to find the thread and figure out a defense instead of discussing the issue with you directly or contacting any authorities.


LightRider
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1488


I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.


View Profile WWW
July 26, 2012, 09:45:34 AM
 #186

Let this be a warning to everyone:

If your account is hacked (email or otherwise), MtGox, AurumXChange and BitInstant might start a thread calling you a thief and a hacker publicly and just leave it up to you to find the thread and figure out a defense instead of discussing the issue with you directly or contacting any authorities.



I think Matt is upset because this Bitcoinica story is developing faster than a traditional print magazine can keep up with. I mean, the first one still listed Bitcoinica as a proud partner and one of Bitcoin's Greatest Hits.

EDIT: To be fair, AE did say
Quote
Zhou, I know what you are up to. This funds have been frozen as well pending investigation, and will not be released until the investigation is concluded.
in the ticket. https://www.aurumxchange.com/help/ticket.php?track=NLY-9AG-E468&Refresh=24195

That does kind of imply that Zhou is guilty of something.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
repentance
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 840


View Profile
July 26, 2012, 09:46:40 AM
 #187


I do not know the situation on that aspect, as the funds are not held with MtGox (we are merely helping with the investigation and trying to ensure the information flows correctly to the community).

It's been stated elsewhere on the board that MtGox has now frozen the Bitcoinica MtGox account.  Can you confirm whether that's the case (it would be a reasonable action to take, but users generally tend to disbelieve such claims as I'm sure you're aware from having to explain such situations in relation to your own financial institutions)?

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
MagicalTux
VIP
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 617


Working on new MtGox features


View Profile WWW
July 26, 2012, 09:48:16 AM
 #188

It's been stated elsewhere on the board that MtGox has now frozen the Bitcoinica MtGox account.  Can you confirm whether that's the case (it would be a reasonable action to take, but users generally tend to disbelieve such claims as I'm sure you're aware from having to explain such situations in relation to your own financial institutions)?

Yes indeed, as discussed with Bitcoinica, we have blocked Bitcoinica's account to prevent further loss, and pending legal action to determine what should be done with those funds.

caveden
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106



View Profile
July 26, 2012, 09:49:04 AM
 #189

Will it help an actual police investigation? Probably the opposite.

It might help. With everything being public, an eventual typical police inactivity would also be public. There's some incentives for them to actually do their job (even because most of the job's done already).
If everything is done entirely in private, the police could just behave as usual (i.e., do nothing useful) and that would be it.

But you do have a point. Perhaps they should have tried to contact Zhou before releasing his private data like this.

This is all quite delicate.

18rZYyWcafwD86xvLrfuxWG5xEMMWUtVkL
xDan
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 662

ヽ( ㅇㅅㅇ)ノ ~!!


View Profile
July 26, 2012, 09:50:15 AM
 #190

You guys are such a mob. You too, AurumExchange, Mt Gox and co. Posting inconclusive "facts" then vaguely hinting at more unrevealed details are blame spreading, lynch mob feeding tactics worth of a tabloid.

HODLing for the longest time. Skippin fast right around the moon. On a rocketship straight to mars.
Up, up and away with my beautiful, my beautiful Bitcoin~
davout
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1358


1davout


View Profile WWW
July 26, 2012, 09:50:32 AM
 #191

I guess you're up for a surprise on this one.
That wouldn't be the first one Smiley
But still, that doesn't make much sense to me, from a legal POV to disclose very sensitive information to a public internet forum.

The fact is that at this time no party has contacted us in any way to notify us of any action (we are in contact with all the parties involved in Bitcoinica). In absence of any legal context to relate to, there is only so much we can do.
Absence of proof is not proof of absence, therefore : assumption. Either way my point is that you shouldn't have released anything until contacted by an official law enforcement body. Because doing so would probably qualify as a big fat breach of privacy, decency, and your own very terms.

I do not know the situation on that aspect, as the funds are not held with MtGox (we are merely helping with the investigation and trying to ensure the information flows correctly to the community).
It's not the community's role to investage, nor is it yours. I'm simply arguing that the information flow you're mentioning might not be the most appropriate, it might somehow be in your interest, but I fail to see how it's in the victims best interests.

Yes indeed, as discussed with Bitcoinica, we have blocked Bitcoinica's account to prevent further loss, and pending legal action to determine what should be done with those funds.
That sounds about right, maybe you should have stopped right there.

Let's agree to disagree

Ente
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1834



View Profile
July 26, 2012, 09:50:36 AM
 #192

Let this be a warning to everyone:

If your account is hacked (email or otherwise), MtGox, AurumXChange and BitInstant might start a thread calling you a thief and a hacker publicly and just leave it up to you to find the thread and figure out a defense instead of discussing the issue with you directly or contacting any authorities.


My resumée from this:
- Bitcoinica was not run professionaly
- the professionality of Bitcoin Consultancy Group / Intersango is at question
- MtGox, AurumXChange, BitInstant are not run professionaly

I guess I better dump the little I have left on MtGox. And print out another paperwallet professionaly. I don't want to afford more than a little playmoney on MtGox by this point now.

Ente
sturle
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1418

http://bitmynt.no


View Profile WWW
July 26, 2012, 09:57:21 AM
 #193

    [...] AurumXchange asked us if we knew anything about email address stevejobs807@gmail.com which was used by the hacker according to AurumXchange. We found an account under this email which [...] initial funds are deposited from an account known to belong to Zhou Tong.[/list]
    I see three possibilities here:

    • Zhou Thong created the second MtGox account himself, and were in breach of MtGox ToS by owning two accounts without prior permission.
    • The attacker also had access to Zhou Tong's MtGox account and got the funds from there himself.  Zhou Thong didn't notice.
    • The attacker bought a Redeemable code or BTC directly from Zhou Thong, and transferred it directly to this account.

    To me the first option is most likely.

    From MtGox ToS:
    Quote
    Members may only have one Account at any one time and may not create or use any Account other than their own. For a Member to be exempt from any of these rules, he/she must request express and prior permission from the Platform. The creation or use of Accounts without obtaining such prior express permission from the Platform will lead to the immediate suspension of all said Accounts, as well as all pending purchase/sale offers.
    If Zhou Tong indeed did own this account without express permission, MtGox shall have to suspend all Zhou Thong's accounts.  If it wasn't his account, he need to explain how the funds got transferred there from his account.

    Sjå http://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
    I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
    I support the roadmap.  If a majority of miners ever try to forcefully take control of Bitcoin through a hard fork without 100% consensus, I will immediately split out and dump all my forkcoins, and buy more real Bitcoin.
    repentance
    Hero Member
    *****
    Offline Offline

    Activity: 840


    View Profile
    July 26, 2012, 09:58:31 AM
     #194

    It's been stated elsewhere on the board that MtGox has now frozen the Bitcoinica MtGox account.  Can you confirm whether that's the case (it would be a reasonable action to take, but users generally tend to disbelieve such claims as I'm sure you're aware from having to explain such situations in relation to your own financial institutions)?

    Yes indeed, as discussed with Bitcoinica, we have blocked Bitcoinica's account to prevent further loss, and pending legal action to determine what should be done with those funds.

    Thank you Mark.  At least we can put to rest any suggestions that they're bullshitting about that so that they can "run away with the funds".

    All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
    MagicalTux
    VIP
    Hero Member
    *
    Offline Offline

    Activity: 617


    Working on new MtGox features


    View Profile WWW
    July 26, 2012, 09:58:44 AM
     #195

    The fact is that at this time no party has contacted us in any way to notify us of any action (we are in contact with all the parties involved in Bitcoinica). In absence of any legal context to relate to, there is only so much we can do.
    Absence of proof is not proof of absence, therefore : assumption. Either way my point is that you shouldn't have released anything until contacted by an official law enforcement body. Because doing so would probably qualify as a big fat breach of privacy, decency, and your own very terms.

    None of the parties able to start a legal action on this have done so, or have declined to let us know. Either way that puts us in a delicate situation. It should also be noted that I speak for MtGox, not for AurumXchange.

    I do not know the situation on that aspect, as the funds are not held with MtGox (we are merely helping with the investigation and trying to ensure the information flows correctly to the community).
    It's not the community's role to investage, nor is it yours. I'm simply arguing that the information flow you're mentioning might not be the most appropriate, it might somehow be in your interest, but I fail to see how it's in the victims best interests.

    Actually it is our role to investigate any transaction that comes or goes through our systems. However once the investigation reaches a specific point we need to forward the details to the law enforcement in charge. It was legal advice on AurumXchange's side to publish a subset of the details.

    Justin00
    Legendary
    *
    Offline Offline

    Activity: 910


    ★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice


    View Profile
    July 26, 2012, 10:01:22 AM
     #196

    if the police report hasn't been filed... has any crime been committed ?

    How can anyone running a company of sorts not inform the police.. its not like we are talking $10 here.. even if the police cant do anything... how can someone of not told them yet ? That is dodgy as hell.

    Matthew N. Wright
    Untrustworthy
    Hero Member
    *****
    Offline Offline

    Activity: 588


    Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet


    View Profile
    July 26, 2012, 10:03:04 AM
     #197

    It was legal advice on AurumXchange's side to publish a subset of the details.

    MtGox breaches customer privacy agreement with its customer due to the advice of a competing exchange's attorney?

    Are you sure they weren't just trying to ruin your business?

    HorseRider
    Donator
    Legendary
    *
    Offline Offline

    Activity: 1582


    View Profile
    July 26, 2012, 10:04:25 AM
     #198

    I'm going to send the Liu Haipeng's ICBC account mentioned by Zhoutong 0.01 RMB, to identify the province location of the bank account.

    Just wait.


    ---

    edit

    The bank account was opened in 黑龙江省牡丹江(Mudanjiang, Heilongjiang Province. )
    The Chinese name of this bank account is 刘海鹏

    hopefully that this will be helpful. However, it can be a bank account bought from the black market.

    Another information: this card a debit card, and it is linked to a credit card to pay back the credit card loan automatically.

    16SvwJtQET7mkHZFFbJpgPaDA1Pxtmbm5P
    MagicalTux
    VIP
    Hero Member
    *
    Offline Offline

    Activity: 617


    Working on new MtGox features


    View Profile WWW
    July 26, 2012, 10:04:38 AM
     #199

    MtGox breaches customer privacy agreement with its customer due to the advice of a competing exchange's attorney?

    Are you sure they weren't just trying to ruin your business?

    Actually - it may be difficult to remember as we are already on the 11th page - the announce was made by AurumXchange, not by us.

    aq
    Full Member
    ***
    Offline Offline

    Activity: 238


    View Profile
    July 26, 2012, 10:05:57 AM
     #200

    I'm gonna take a break from Bitcoin for a while.

    What does this mean for Bitcoin Magazine/Ellet/UndisclosedSecretBitcoinProjectNumber12?
    In the meantime you should have noticed that Matthews rarely keeps promises exactly as stated.

    And it is very interesting that one of the most vocal public disclosure persons wants to suppress an investigation in this case.
    He also tries to steer the discussion away from the actual theft case to something else.
    We should start asking what Matthew has to loose in this case.
    Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 »  All
      Print  
     
    Jump to:  

    Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
    Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!