Bitcoin Forum

After many, many, many months of waiting I’m glad to report BFL has delivered. I received my first Jalapeño today!

This bad boy is getting 5.6 Gigahash instead of 4.5 Gigahash listed on their website. I'm thrilled about about the speed increase even though it's larger and takes more power.

For a $149 investment it'll repay itself and make $1300 on top in one month of mining.

Here are some pics for your enjoyment... View at imgur: http://imgur.com/a/fHvMm#0 (http://imgur.com/a/fHvMm#0)

Congrats... were you an early adopter?

congrats dude! I wish I could get mine as fast as yours, but I wont be receiving mine until its unprofitable.

What was your order number and date?

Congrats on your miner!

congrats.

Congrats! I will ask the same - are you early adopter?

Great to hear where you one of the first to order in September?

Congrats. Tell us please when you placed your order..

It's funny how no one wants to share their order # ...  >:(

Is that a coffee mug in your box?

I recommend you open it and you put thermal grease.

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/7869/padx.jpg

omg i feel ........ CONGRATS!!

Is it?

LMFAO!!

HDSolar also won't disclose his order number....

He is supposedly "a standard customer" among the reviewers and developers ....gee I wonder why they won't disclose?

GigaVPS is a tremendous farm builder as far as I know, so he's not a normal customer by any stretch of the imagination. This tells me there is priority amoung who they are shipping units to. It does not seem to be related to Pay Date.

As soon as someone announces their order, they go quiet on when they ordered or even their order number....gee I wonder why?

For the love of mining, post your order date and order number.

My order# is 2727 and current status is "processing".
Base on BFL's information, "processing" means your machine is still not start to be built.
Let's see how much time they need to change my order status to others.

I recommend you don't, as that would be a very bad idea, reduce your performance and if you end up burning a chip, it will void your warranty.

Congrats!..
I want to know your order number too ;D

Free mug... sweet.
Somehow must add some extra hashes...

Think again. You paid about 23 BTC 10 months ago. You'll make .3 btc/day. Even if the difficulty doesn't skyrocket (which it will), you need more than 2 months to just break even. You aren't making any profit for a long time.

No, he paid in USD, just like everyone else.  Nice try, though.

Yes, this one will have a really, really nice ROI.

I was an early adopter. I purchased BFL's FPGA devices in the past and the moment I heard of their new product line purchased a bunch of ASIC devices. I know BFL get's a lot of flack for delivering late but their products are extremely well designed and perform great. I'm thrilled that they are honoring their original commitment for delivering the quoted hashing even though it's costing them a lot to redesign their products for the higher power requirements. Overall I'm happy with what they delivered and looking forward to what they come up with next.

My order number was 1604.

Wait, you mean a company that has sold you stuff before(FPGA) sold you more stuff (ASIC)?

ITS A SCAM PONZI SCHEME!!!!! THIS GUYS A SHILL!!!

... is what posts below this will say...

Part of the FPGA upgrade group,I see  8)

Congrats!!!  ;D

Get these things rolling BFL,network is getting to 100TH w/diff @ 100,000,000.

My 2nd day order is losing its new "early adopter" smell  ::)

Thanks Scared at least I know where I stand ;)

Um no,

It will be full of:

"WTF! My order number is <insert order number>. Mine is way below his!? Why hasn't mine already shipped?"

True. lol. i was thinking it too.

Order number doesn't say much anyway since it's the day BFL received full payment that counts, considering this any "normal" order that gets filled right now should have been paid with BTC. Since you like to bash BFL so much you can therefore go hunt for someone who received their day one pre-orders and paid with bank wire (iirc paypal wasn't available from the start). Let's see how it turns out!

Meanwhile, if he bought BTC, he would have 23 BTC, right now. Nice try at post rationalizing though.

Not correct. It took them few days to clear my payment - order date is the day I placed it, not the date they received the funds!

Hindsight my friend. BTC could have went to zero too. this is a weak argument.

hi have you tried mining litecoins with your jale?

how much is the hash rate?

Just like everyone else? I paid in BTC, this is a fact that can be proven. I don't think I'm entitled to a BTC refund, but this does not change the fact that I paid in BTC.

Finally shipping it seems. Hopefully not too fast. Just fast enough to not be a scam but not fast enough to actually affect difficulty.  ;D

@minterj If BTC went bust, his Jalapeno would also be worthless. The point is, the owner would already have in hand (23BTC) what the device is supposed to provide over the course of 6 months (assuming conservative rises in difficulty).

The value and income of bitcoin mining devices is tied to the value of bitcoin. Unlike gpus, ASIC can't be resold for other purposes. Therefore, by buying a BFL ASIC, he was still at the whim of BTC prices.

And if BTC had gone to zero, he'd also have 23 BTC. See how the exchange rate is completely irrelevent? Mining hardware generates BTC no matter what the exchange rate is, so BTC is how you have to evaluate its ROI.

<smacks forehead>

I don't see how BFL stopped him from buying 23 BTC at any time, can you please post where BFL forbids people from purchasing BTC once they purchase one of our products, which are sold for USD (Not BTC)?

You can't?  Oh, then your argument is fallacious.  Nice try at rationalizing a false premise, though.  Well, actually, no it's not.  It's pretty sophomoric and elementary.

<slow clap>
that was brilliant

Why so many HW errors?

The trolls have shifted their stance from "BFL has never shipped" to people could have done X with their pre-payment money.
 
In the real world people can wait for many months for a house to be built with a deposit much larger than the cost of a BFL device, and they are perfectly happy with that, as long as the builder doesn't go bust and they get their house in the end.



Certainly a problem there which requires investigating.

Good question. That doesn't seem right.

see:

when you're buying a mining device, you're essentially paying now to get bitcoins later.

How did he pay in USD when you were only accepting preorders in bitcoin through bitpay?

What would be the point?

As soon as anyone else posts that they have recieved the lowest end product, other customers will jump on it and bemoan that they haven't received theirs. In the execution of their bemoaning they will give everyone watching plenty of "juicy details", hence there is no point to go fetch it. It will be there by morning on this, or any other thread.

Actually, if he paid in BTC and BTC went down to 0.00001...BFL would have to buy "a whole lot" of Bitcoins for their refund.

As there are a finite supply of BitCoins, this might have been a problem. There are trillion of dollars. There aren't "that many" BitCoins.

That would be Economics 101 at a grade school level. Purchasing your product presents an "Opportunity Cost". If the customer buys from you, he cannot use those dollars (or BTC) elsewhere. So in the most limited sense, yes you did present a barrier to the buyer buying BTC.

You simply were simply a bad choice and opportunity being chosen. Everything is hindsight though, so I won't blame you or the customer for taking his chances and coming out burned.

I can only blame you for not delivering your product on time and within (a reasonable) schedule. Let the lawyers figure out if the customers incurred any loses due to your failure to deliver in a reasonable time frame.

(Technically, you took up about 1/100th of their lifetime in the waiting game...think about that for awhile.)

Spot on!

In this case BFL failed to deliver on time. Hence, you lost the opportunity to mine several (thousand) Bitcoins [and counting] if they had shipped when they were scheduled to ship.

WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY RETARD

Err , im no rocket sugeon-ist buy that would imply Bitpay exchanges to USD at time of purchase to give to the vendor.. Which is exactly what Bitpay does..

They can`t ship them out until they have mined enough money for themselves with the boards. "Testing units" according to them  ::)

Please try cgminer. Read ASIC-README to get started since you need to install a different driver to run cgminer and avoid getting such terrible hardware error rates.

Scared is right to be happy because he invested 149$ in the bitcoin currency (through the jalapeno)
and his return will be 149+ $ (actually thousands of them).

Scared will be right to be happy that he invested in the bitcoin currency through the jalapeno
instead of directly buying bitcoins when his jalapeno will mine for him more than 23 BTC.

Will it?

23 BTC is now worth....3266.03226 USD (or about 22 jalepenos)

So...how about someone do some math on the difficulty going up with a constant period of adjustment. What will it take to get back the 23BTC?

I am quite new at BTC, but AFAIK the price was in USD and BTC was just the means of paying those USD's. I guess that anyone who believed BTC would go up, would have bought some BTCs to replace the ones used to order their BFL gear.

If the jalapeno did cost $150, and is received today, it should repay itself in something like 4 days.

If you had bought the right lottery ticket, you could be a millionaire right now!

The price on BFL's website, and on the order invoices, is listed in USD.

If I order something from Europe that's listed in Euros, Visa will do the currency conversion without me having to bother with it, but as far as the European company is concerned, they're being paid in Euros not USD.

I tried arguing this many times and finally gave up. People are too dumb to realize they could have paid in BTC, then immediately bought the BTC back. In fact, BitPay even offered to sell the BTC back to customers... If the value of 1 BTC was $1 right now, they would be demanding USD back and not BTC. I am pissed off I didn't buy BTC back after my ASIC pre-orders, but I do not blame BFL one bit, only myself. Oh well, 1 year from now I will be glad I am holding my BTC now ;)

Edit: also, back on topic, grats on the jalapeno OP! Can't wait for the Single SCs to start shipping!

I did some math on this when considering buying an ASICminer Blade (they just went for around 52 BTC per piece). The Blade is 10 GH/s, so to get the Jalapeño figures, just divide by 2-ish.

My calculations show that if difficulty rises 1% per day for the next 365 days, then at the end of those 365 days one will have mined 49.2 BTC (with a 10 GH/s Blade).
One would start out mining 0.5 BTC per day, and end up - after 365 days (under the above assumption) - mining only 0.0132 BTC per day.

The hash rate right now is around 93 TH/s. A 1% increase in hash rate per day would mean that the hash rate, at the end of those 365 days would be around 38 times what it is now, which would mean that on 2014-04-29 the hash rate will be 3504 TH/s.

The current 14-day average for the growth in network hash rate is around 1.2% per day (it has varied between 0.8% and 1.8% in the last two months). http://bitcoin.sipa.be/

Using the same figure (1% rise in hash rate per day) for this Jalapeño, it would take 167 days to mine 23 BTC. You'd start out mining 0.28 BTC per day (at difficulty 10,000,000), and end up (after the 167 days) mining 0.0526 BTC per day (at difficulty 52,933,877). After a year, you would have mined 27.5 BTC, and the difficulty would be 379,634,535.

But this assumes a constant rise in hash rate of 1% per day, so it really is just a thought experiment; no one knows how the hash rate will evolve.

In the real world, having just had a house built I know how this works.  The builder has compulsory insurance should they default before the house is finished.  The insurance company would pay and I would have an angry bank chasing the builder (the bank paid the money, not me).  In the real world we all know if BFL goes belly up before a customer's order is shipped there's basically nothing that can be done.  A BFL asset sale would maybe return 5c in every dollar.

I also had a due date for the house and it was finished two months ahead of schedule.  BFL has missed promised shipping dates since October 2012.

Well if you did manage to find someone who who got their product before they should have (as in they ordered day one but BFL recieved payment later) You would have some actual FACTS to throw at BFL for once rather than your usual pointless mess you like to spew. Then again basing something on facts isn't really your expertise is it.

Just saying here's a chance to make sure BFL are sticking to their own set of rules for delivery, it would be easy enough to discover, do something useful for once!

No we are not trolls. Yes, it is called opportunity cost. It is actually the core of every complaint about BFL. Take a college course or two in economics.


A deposit that is usually a very small percentage of the cost of the house. They don't pay the full price of the house upfront (unless they are morons).
Nobody is perfectly happy with a late house, in fact everyone who has more than 2 neurons is pissed off because they don't have a house when they should have had a house. Lawyers are usually involved. So are insurance companies.

BFL customer service is defended by strawmen and bootlickers.

So you are suggesting houses don't have long construction delays and people cant loose their money, to that I say utter crap, the current affairs programs on TV are full of such stories.

WOW. Josh's response to this argument is so absurd I don't know where to begin. So let me get this straight. Josh is claiming grue's "argument is fallacious" because nobody stopped BFL customers from making ADDITIONAL investments directly into BTC? LMAO that's not how it works and his argument is spot on. The fact is plain and simple. Somebody that had $150 ten months ago would have been better off just buying 23BTC directly since a Jalapeno will likely only mine 75% or so of that before it's unproductive. What they could have done with an ADDITIONAL $150 makes absolutely no difference.

The only thing "sophomoric and elementary" is how Josh conducts himself and his behavior and irrational arguments are lowering my opinion of BFL more than their extreme shipping delays have. I will take Bitsyncom's black hole over this insanity ANY DAY.

Can we have one BFL thread that doesn't end up debating the same offtopic things that 10 billion other threads already do?

Scared - do you know the power usage of your device?

If you could tell me exactly what the price of BTC will be 10 months from now, please let me know so I can either buy or sell a shit load of BTC. Until then, please don't ever post again.

I paid mine in BTC (and BFL received USD) and have no regrets at all.. I dont look to the past for "re-evaluate" trade/buy/donation... When I do a deal, it is what it worth, at that time...

I've sold a XBox360 for 250 BTC when they were at 1$.. I dont see it as I if sold it for 35 000 U$.. I sold it for 250 BTC.

In the past, I've made donation of few BTC.. I dont think now I've made hundreds of dollar donations, I've made few BTC donation.

I've sold more then 5k BTC under 1$.. No regret, because, at this time, I was happy of each trade I made.

Bought thousand of $ of BTC under 100$, sold part of it over 200$... When BTC will be trade for thousands of fiat $, I will still have no regret of any trade made in the past..

You dont beleive in BTC over 500$, lets bet on it ;)  see my signature

The only thing absurd in your post is your grasp on common sense.

Hey Inaba,

It's called lost opportunity. Paying you fools in any fiat paper that could have been put towards bitcoin is a lost opportunity.

Nice try, though to deflect.

I guess many people purchased BTC to buy the Jalapeno at the time.
(I know I did) i.e. I would not have purchased BTC otherwise at the time, so whether to keep or not is really a moot point from this perspective.
It was just that the process was Fiat-> BTC -> Bitpay -> Order Confirmed.

The future exchange rate has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this. Hold my hand as I walk you through it. If somebody wants to invest in BTC they can either A) buy them or B) buy hardware to mine them.

If they had decided to A) buy BTC and the price of BTC today was $1,000, they would have 23BTC today. If the price of BTC today was $0, they would still have 23BTC today.

If they decided to B) pre-order a Jalapeno to mine them and the price today was $1,000, they would have 0BTC today. If the price was $0, they would still have 0BTC. If the price in a year from now is $1,000 they might have 17BTC by that time. If the price in a year is $0, they would still have 17BTC.

See how that works? Somebody that pre-ordered a Jalapeno 10 months ago will have 25% less BTC than if they bought them directly. It doesn't matter what the exchange rate has done in the last 10 months.

Until BFL catches up to all of their orders in the QUEUE they are in essence screwing someone else over.

They have not delivered in full to all customers from 6, 8, 10 months ago. So stfu until then okay? Thanks  ;D ;D ;D

Translation: "I got nothing"

Oh, you mean the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 rule for delivery they promised and now are ignoring?

No, the proper translation is: I'm not feeling like arguing with stupid.  Check back later, maybe my mood will have changed.

Try understanding the basics of what you're posting before you post, you might get a more comprehensive response.  The fact that you have no idea what you're talking about makes it hard to even know where to start.

I hope your wife is doing the finances in your household.  How about you pay me now for 1 billion shares and I'll submit them to your pool 10 months from now when my ASICs arrive?

-Perhaps he did not have $150 more to buy BTC? You're married, you should know you can't spend willy nilly
-Pehaps he expected he would receive his device in October 2012 because it said so on the internet.  Oh that's right, you can't believe everything on the internet, especially from duplicitous PR guy.
-Perhaps he thought in October that the price had not changed much and he would receive his device in November.  And then in November he was told it would arrive in December.  Repeat this sequence until April 2013.  Why should he buy additional BTC - wasn't that the point of purchasing the miner?
-If BFL converted the Bitpay BTC to ass hamsters would he be refunded in ass hamsters?  If BFL converted Bitpay's BTC payment to some crack on SR would he be refunded in crack?

Nothing stopped sensible people from buying a simple 7770 which might have mined 23 BTC by now - well nothing except common sense.  Would you, Inaba, buy a video card and related computer hardware and mine at 200MH/s when you have an order pending for a device that would do 4.5GH/s at 1/20 the power.  Would you?  I just want a simple yes or no answer - don't go on with talk about how I'm not worth your time?  I own a BFL Single (original owner) and I had orders for ASICs, so don't count me in your pool of detractors who never even bought BFL hardware.

Yes BFL cannot be blamed for people who want a refund in BTC paid - you can't use a purchase as a hedge against foreign exchanges.  They can blame BFL for poor planning on their miner hardware deployment secondary to BFL's, uh how did you word it, "fallacious statement" - of which I believe you were responsible for later on in 2012.  I have yet to see you apologize even once for the delays the BFL suffered, whether intentional or not.  Can't you for just one time say you hurt people?  Or does that admit to liability to be used in court?

Come on, rebuke me with some of your SAT vocabulary.  Please abstain from 4 letter words and profanity.

Rograz, you must be new.

I do use the truth to "throw at BFL". You just don't appear to know it, hence your ignorance.

This argument is beyond retarded. It's the same trolls over and over (I'm looking to you, Smoothie). It's not BFL's fault that people didn't choose to invest in bitcoin instead of a pre-order of an ASIC miner. Nobody had any knowledge, let alone a guarantee that the bitcoin exchange rate was going to rocket off like it did in such a short amount of time. Some people bet wrong, and didn't make as much money. boo hoo.

The same argument can be made on ANY investment, with the benefit of hindsight. "Well, if you'd just bet on the winning team, you wouldn't have lost the bet. So clearly the losing team owes the bettor some winnings!" Um. no.

Give it a rest, people. If you don't want a BFL, don't buy one. If you missed the boat then go cry a river. Trolling the forums with every possible contrived little complaint you can dig up just demonstrates that you're a whiny bitch with an ax to grind...

Watch out for this guy Inaba, it seems he has more common sense (and critical thinking) than most....

He's a sharp tack, don't step on him!

Right now, the best indicator to me that BFL is both shady and unprofessional is that Inaba is still employed by them. Any real company would have fired their PR monkey for treating customers the way Josh has.
So why haven't they fired him? They must need him to be a dick on the forums.
What could being belligerent on the forums possible get BFL? It might deflect current pre-order investors from asking too many questions.
Why doesn't BFL want their investors asking questions? I don't know.

I do know the following:
As long as BFL ships just enough devices to avoid being called a scam and damaging the reputation of Bitcoin further, all is good (unless you are a BFL investor).
As long as BFL doesn't ship enough devices to affect the network hashrate, all is good (unless you are a BFL investor).

Hehe,

I didn't miss the boat, the boat missed me?!

Actually, the boat never came, and it was notorious for being late and for having serious "leaky" problems. The boat conductor is also awful. He swears like a sailor!

This is what people with no real argument post. They piss and moan and beg you to stop posting.
Wrenchmonkey didn't read the earlier posts talking about how the current exchange rate does not matter in calculating the BTC lost by betting on BFL.
Why would he read them? He has nothing to offer this forum except to go down on his knees and beg everyone to stop bashing BFL. You don't need to read posts to do that.

http://www.clipartpal.com/_thumbs/pd/holiday/halloween/praying_skeleton.png

So then it doesn't count that BFL failed on their promises for 6 months after their original promised delivery date in which cost investors opportunity?

Yeah right lol my argument is so flawed. I am an unbiased observer that never put any money into a preorder with BFL or any ASIC company. My opinion has weight to it because I'm not responding nor posting based on emotion. Purely on the facts that BFL promised then lied to string investors along for months all the while m owing the could not ship for months.

Josh will never address the inconsistencies of them saying they did X in October then saying agai. That finally they are doing X in march.

Bullshit lol

Looks like the answer is no.  ::)

At least you tried. Lol

The number of coins "lost" by betting on BFL is irrelevant. You could have turned that money into billions, if you'd been able to read the future. Again, it's just the same as saying after the end of a game, or a boxing match "Man, the loser of that game totally cost you, like, a million dollars, dude! If you'd gone out and bet all your money on the WINNING team, you could've been rich by now!"

It takes a special kind of stupid to use hindsight in your argument.

And no, I'm not begging anybody to stop posting. Where did I beg anybody to stop posting? I'm just pointing out that it's always the same trolls, who have nothing better to do than cry about BFL. You're OBSESSED. It's unhealthy. Get a hobby, dude.

Lol.

So anyway, tell us a bit more about your little BFL "Borg cube" have you got it mining all the time or just mucking about with it?

Does it run hot to touch?

How much CPU power do you need for cgminer to drive one of these things? Like would it run from a Raspberry Pi or a small low power Intel Atom board?

The cgminer code is stable so it needs no attention right now so I've left it mining full time. I've moved it around a few times from pc to laptop to mining rig and so on. I've ripped the case off to look inside, and found it runs a lot cooler with the fan blowing downwards and the case off - though I put it back together the original way to be able to safely move it from PC to PC. My particular one runs at 5.7GH with about 1 hw error only every 12 hours. When mining on a PC only with it, the CPU usage of cgminer doesn't even register (something like <1%). Trying it on r-pi it still only uses 3% CPU to run it. This is all thanks to cgminer using direct USB instead of the ancient serial usb interface with the ftdi driver. It doesn't run hot at all, mine sits at ~43 degrees on the sensor and is only warm to touch. It uses 32W via the power brick it was sent with, but only increases my mining rig's power by 30W when I use the adapter to plug it into the PSU of the rig so this is a more efficient way to mine with it.

How can this be true? BitPay was doing API tests and during their tests ISTR they created order numbers around 1630-1640.
And the first real order numbers for SC's started around 1650-1660: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=89685.0

So how can you be 1604? Typo?

The number of bitcoins lost by betting on BFL is irrelevant? I hope you have fun explaining that to the people who actually lost those coins. You have a bright future as a punching bag.
Nobody is using hindsight for what you suggest. We are enumerating the damages caused by BFL's bait and switch.

Speaking of the same old cast of characters, you are actually one of about 5 accounts who relentlessly defend BFL against all comers.
Inaba of course, and his 2 sockpuppets Erk and MinterJ
Kano, who hates Avalon so much that he hitched his wagon to BFL just for spites sake (You can read Kano's marriage proposal to Josh here after Kano was refused a free Avalon https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.msg1511889#msg1511889)
And you.

Say you laid a bet on a roulette wheel in a Vegas casino and lost all your money. Later you found out that the roulette table was fixed and you had zero chance of winning, would you argue that you deserved to lose because you had to use hindsight to determine that you had been ripped off? No. Only a "special type of stupid" would make such an argument.

Go back to begging, you don't seem quite as pathetic when you are on your knees with tears in your eyes.

Could you double check that order number???

order numbers before 1655 where fpga orders. as far as i know, the first asic order placed was approx 1655

It takes a special kind of troll who registered 14 days ago to vehemently defend a company that repeatedly strung along customers.  In your boxing analogy it would be like a friend who kept telling you over and over that the "loser" was a sure bet and would KO the other guy any moment now.  So you want to blame the customers for listening to BFL - is that how it goes? Gotcha.

So once again, you boil it down to what every other troll really trolls with.  You basically have nothing else.  "BFL is late."  

Yep, BFL is late.  I've apologized for it numerous times, and again, like Charlie, I am not your personal secretary.  If you're so lazy or incompetent that you can't be bothered to find the myriad of threads where I've apologized for it, that's just too bad, you'll have to suck it up and drive on, little soldier.  

I have hurt no one.  If you've been hurt by bitcoin, in whatever fashion, you seriously need to re-examine your life and reassess your priorities.  Putting yourself in a position where you can be hurt by an experimental currency and bleeding edge technology is not just stupid, it's completely irresponsible and you shouldn't be allowed near a computer, much less money.  On top of that, the timeline for the ASICs was set and announced long, long before I came on board.  As I've said, again in countless places, going forward if I have any say in the situation, BFL will not be announcing timelines beyond "When it's ready."  



I love this, when a troll trots out this old saw.  I rarely put profanity in my posts (It happens on occasion, but not often), but you're so blinded by your rage and butthurt that you envision profanity where there is none.  Does my vocabulary threaten you somehow?  Do you fail to understand the big words I use so you translate them into imaginary profanity, is that how that works?  I've always been curious as to where the source of this particular trope originates, perhaps you can enlighten me.

I fixed up one of Inaba's rage posts:


to more accurately reflect what a real PR person would have written, instead of what a very insecure man with poor social skills might write.

Good thing I'm not a PR man then, huh?  Oh... one more thing you don't know.  That brings the list to... lets see... crap, basically everything.

Every time I see Inaba fighting someone here, I feel that there might be some trouble at BFL  :D  Is there some problem with the new PCB board production? Or not enough electronic components in stock ready for purchase?

You would think INABA would not have enough time to troll the forums with his presence with all the backed up preorders up the ass they have right??

No more important than getting customer's their devices is defending BFL's image which they themselves tarnished by lies and deceit.

I think everyone who has ever come into contact with you realizes that you have no talent at all in public relations. You don't need to belabor that point.
You claim to be the chief operations officer, yet have very little that operates to show for it.
Right now, you are the face (some might say ass) of BFL on these boards. If you actually want to protect and grow your business, then you should hire an real PR person. If you have no business to protect, well then I guess you might as well just rage on.  :D

Sorry but that's not going to happen when you have the BFL frontman himself trolling the topic despite the fact that he's been too busy to post an update that he said (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/692-bfl-asic-status-3.html) would "come in the next day or two, hopefully" two weeks ago :P. I've stayed out of the BFL lynch mob so far but couldn't help but join in when I saw his attitude here.

At the time people placed their pre-orders, the deal was to have an ASIC miner delivered by Jan 1st. Every month of delay lowers that worth from the original valuation. That devaluation is based on BTC and has nothing to do with the exchange rate or any factors external to BFL. Originally I sided with BFL since they offered full refunds so I felt people willingly chose to stay on board and shouldn't complain. Then when I really dug through Josh's post history, it does seem very likely that he posted fraudulent ship dates to string people along. Why would you cancel your order in Feb if they were just about to ship in March? He's held that carrot right out in front leading everybody the entire way one little lie at a time. Look at the last two updates (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/692-bfl-asic-status-3.html). First he says "We plan on shipping possibly by the end of next week" then two weeks later mentions "We've been working on getting the software and firmware nailed down". This has my bullshit meter pegged. It's starting to become clear the Josh has never had any idea when they might ship and just keeps staying "almost there". I think the reason Josh can't find time to post that update that's two weeks over due is because saying nothing is easier than telling another lie that the "trolls" will hold him accountable for...

Whoa... I see where the communication breakdown is.  You think Bitcointalk is still relevant to mining hardware.  Heh.  How... quaint.  I see where you get your nick, now.  

I'm very surprised that you don't have the time to post an update to all of your customers but you somehow find the time to type out all of these responses that have ZERO content and add ZERO value to the discussion. Maybe after a good nights sleep you'll be able to actually explain why I don't understand the basics of what I'm posting. I'll be waiting...

No, my mistake was thinking BFL was still relevant to mining hardware.

490,000 reasons why they are not can be found in this thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181982.0

Wow. Just wow. I think I see what's going on here. Surely he couldn't have missed the awesome grassroot efforts to turn bulk Avalon chips into DIY miners in this very forum right? I think he might be so traumatized by being outperformed by Bitsyncom that he's blocking them out of his memory. He will probably need counselling before he can even speak the name Yifu. It's all starting to make sense...

You know all I asked for was a simple apology and even that was too much to ask for.  Were you previous apologies like "I'm sorry.  I'm sorry you're too stupid to know how to stupid to use our website."

I don't know what to say if you see me as a troll. I was a BFL customer long before you became PR guy, and I don't blame you for anything that happened prior to your arrival.  But you failed to answer my simple question.  Would you, if you were a regular customer of BFL, be quite upset at the way in which the communication with the timeline for rollout was handled?

I'm not even blaming you for what you say.  You're just the PR guy.  If the company you speak for is messed up, you just have to find the best possible way to put out their press releases.  But wouldn't you be upset if you were a customer?  If you can show me one post of yours showcasing a sincere apology I will drop my complaints and even cheer-lead for you (and please don't mock me by saying you don't need my pathetic cheer-leading).  

As far as the profanities, I have seen you (as Inaba) type some pretty offensive stuff, specifically involving male genitalia.  Yes there were equally offensive comments made about your wife and that kind of stuff is really uncalled for on these forums.  There's free speech and then there's lesser primate level of intelligence.  Anybody making comments about somebody's family that has no bearing on your company is uncalled for. However, there's no reason for you to stoop to their level.  It's not a playground and we don't need yo mama jokes.

Rage and butthurt?  Yeah, I drink tea with camomile and have some nice candles - I don't have rage or butthurt.  Your vocabulary does not threaten me.  Your use of improper words (poor diction) as if you looked them up in a thesaurus does.  

To the OP, Did you get a bfl coffee mug too? Lol

Maybe that BFL_Josh guy can give you some pointers.

Both I and James got our cups.  Know who I am?

Sweet! Sucks that it'll take forever for the rest of the orders to be sent.

THIS ^ * 21,000,000

Apologies for the quick aside:

Back in the late 80's in Brentwood, TN, I was in the kitchen of Amy Grant's home watching her in tears while the new builder explained to her why 90% of the drywall needed to be removed from her almost finished home, originally built by an inept contractor.

It was to get to the faulty wiring and plumbing, with the rest of the walls needing replaced after they jack up the house and repair the foundation. The reason for not tearing down the home and rebuilding it from scratch eludes me, but it was a magnificent home on a prime piece of property perched on a hill, with a panoramic view one would die for.

The inept contractor was building 11 other homes at various stages of completion when he went belly-up. I picked up three more of these homes to do similar repairs, one of which was even more magnificent than Amy's beautiful home.

I, too, went to the same thread upon reading the order number, but opted to finish reading this thread before commenting to see if anybody else caught it. I see that somebody did. I now also see that the above has yet to be answered. Odd!

Thanks alot, now I got that song stuck in my head!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbVtwRrX1hE

So, where is mining hardware discussed then? Tell me. Serious question.

I honestly have no idea what you're trying to get at.  You make a post about things in language that appears to be a query or future tense while the things you describe have already happened or are past tense.  Would I be upset?  I am upset, so I suppose the technical answer is yes. I've stated this plenty of times.  Again, why is it my job to be your secretary?

Since you want just one post, let me pick one off the top of my head:  https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/692-bfl-asic-status.html  ... kind of the main thread of the ASIC updates. Third paragraph.  
Oh, here's another: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/653-we-remain-committed-delivering-best-mining-products-market.html  second sentence even.
Oh look, another one: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/690-13-jan-2013-asic-update-discussion-thread-22.html#post11176

That took all of about 5 seconds to find.


I said I have used profanity.  I never have denied that, but I don't use it as a matter of course, like you implied.  The vast majority of my posts are profanity free.


Oh, and what words would those be?

So as long as the MAJORITY of Josh's posts dont have profanity, it's okay.

LOL

Any person that represents a company on the COO level shouldn't be cussing in public when addressing issues related to BFL especially they are operating as an "expert" on everything and anything BFL-related.

There is so much COMPROMISE within BFL and its minions that I'm starting to wonder if they compromise on their salaries as time goes forward too right? Oh wait...can't touch the paychecks that would be too sensitive given they are made up of CUSTOMER/INVESTOR PREORDER MONIES...lol

 :P

I'm not talking about mining hardware discussion.  Google "Bitcoin mining" ... Bitcointalk is at the bottom of the third page.  Which is also known as "Might as well not be listed" page.  

If someone does manage to find their way here, they quickly leave due to all the drama and trolls.  Most people who still post here are so saturated with this community they don't realize how tiny and insulated it is. Bitcointalk posters encompass less than 10% of the current mining population, on a per person basis.  Why do you think all the hardware vendors basically stay the hell away from here?  Avalon makes a post and then leaves for weeks at a time.  bASIC finally gave up and made their own forums before their implosion. Scams galore in the hardware section.  The lack of any meaningful moderation pretty much chases everyone away and no serious business would participate in Bitcointalk.  I do it on my own time and at my own whim.  I don't speak officially for BFL here and BFL has no desire to participate in the Custom Hardware section unless it's properly moderated and cleaned up, which seems unlikely to happen.

Seriously, it's the same people posting over and over for the vast majority of the posts. Those people already have their camps and no one is going to change their minds, so who cares?  There's so much misinformation and BS posted here, it's impossible to find the signal in all the noise, so it's pointless to try to conduct business here.

You sure?


Quotation of the ad auction thread. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181114.msg1951716#msg1951716

I think you are just butthurt because you clearly cant handle angry customers. All you do is drive them more into rage with your "you dont know shit about us" attitude. Yea, well, it has a reason no one knows shit about you. You only tell lies. Well, it may be true what you say all the time, but the truth changes a lot apparently.

Signed, not a angry customer

And now you delivered but your power spec is much lower than expected. Which charity did receive or will receive the 1000 BTC donation?

Yes I know - you will not answer this question instead of pissing your customers.

I may have to agree with this entire post by Josh. (seriously)

+1 @ Inaba, Tho I would like to ask about OP, Did it arrive in BFL box or was it inside another box?

TL;DR

Do we have an order number os this is another PR joke?

Shhh....shhh!  :o ;D

Can't you people just let a lie slip by? What is wrong with you people!? Leave Scared alone (said in a "leave britney alone" tone)

It originates with you.

I still admire your tenacity when you called (Entropy) the ex-Intel engineer whos apparently worked on process nodes as small as 20nm...a cocksucker for giving you his opinion.

Warning to the wise: Do not take anything Inaba (Josh --> BFL Employee) with any level of credibility. If you think I am joking, start looking through his posts and you'll fully understand.)

Ah, shit.

That is what happens when you look through Josh/Inabas posts. You find out the truth and realize he is only posting pre-tense on the hope that no one will actually go and find out the truth.

The truth is the number one enemy that is dogging this poor man.

----------------

I told you to watch out for TehFiend, he can't be fooled by those tricks you always employ...

Holy crap, see, he actually read your history.

This "TehFiend" is one guy you won't be able to convince with a passive lie. You may need to deploy bigger badder BS Inaba. Bigger, heavier and more concentrated. It's the only way to "pull the wool" over his eyes. Do it quickly, the audience is watching, don't let them see you sweat.

Quickly, call him a cocksucker before people become suspicious of your history and tactics.

Let me let you in on a secret folks.

When he shows up ["I speculate"] it is because people have posted something worth hiding. In order to bury it, he must illicit strong emotions "out of you" so that people turn the thread into a cesspit where the uncovered evidence was found (or in many cases resuscitated/remembered).

Then, ask the Mods to quickly hide the thread based on its content going way down hill.

This is how dogs hide their crap when it smells pretty strongly.

I believe that "Scared" will never be seen on BitCoinTalk again. I fear the worst.

Below is a quote from BFLJOSH (i.e. IN-A-BRA).


The bolded section sounds ALL TOO FAMILIAR on BFL's reputation even to this day. Anyone got any quotes to add to these initial claims of Josh?

I believe this is relevant to this thread given supposedly a BFL Jalapeno was delivered to the OP. Or another person who received it. But do we really need to run a power test?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=191600.msg1984392#msg1984392

Can you do photo for back side of PSU?
I need label - model, voltage etc.

Why the hell are trolls always talking about the bitcoin value going up against buying anything with bitcoin?? (for now the jally)

If noone would spend their bitcoins could it be actually used as a currency? I thought bitcoin was made to skip banks while making transactions online, to get rid of a central authority, governmental control. Imagine if everyone was sitting on their BTC's and no one making a transaction in the hope of the value going up.. Would bitcoin ever reach their goal then (replacing / taking out banks)???

I mean if you buy a bread today for $1 and bread price drops to $0.5 tomorrow do you regret buying it yesterday (since you could have bought 2 with the $1 you spent yesterday)?? And you stop buying any food until you die just because of a hope that the price will go down even more?

I really don't get your point.. BFL told you their prices in USD, the BTC amount paid was always calculated to their USD prices.

Does that picture show 70 hardware errors in 1hr5min? (roughly 1 per minute)

Makes me wonder how many good chips they got from the 6 wafers?

But thinking about it though, it makes sense to put the crap ones in the lowest model.

Can you run a 24 Hour power test?

Then post the results?

If you open an icognito window in chrome and Google "bitcoin mining forum" bitcointalk.org is the number 1 listing.
I guess Google thinks this is the place where bitcoin mining is discussed. ;)

This is a lie.  Surely as Bitcoin is the cause of you having customers and clientele, can the act of not holding up to your promises cause the same amount of loss in others.  If I had invested with bitcoin instead of your machines to mine them (2x singles), I could have potentially made $80,000.  I would have been married by now.  :|

Do you think your machines will make me that money?  Until they do I will always be remembering how you "bait and switched" me.

Not trolling but gotta ask. When they failed to deliver the first time, you could have asked for a refund, put all that into BT which was still like 11 bucks and made all this awesome profit. See how hindsight works in other ways? Life lesson dont take money you cant afford to lose (needed for a weddding) and put it into RISKY propositions.

Let me guess you are a BFL shill right?

Profile created March 30th, 2013. And you back up BFL on everything even try to detract with retarded statements.

Don't like it? Press the pussy ignore button lol

Yes tin foil hat man i am a shill just like you are a troll.  Asking a serious question here. Go look at some kiddy porn or somethign and get off my nuts.

difference between you trolls and me. ill never care to look at your stats, wehn you joined or what. You dont exist to me after i press the send button. You mean less than dirt to me, i i go about my day after posting. You guys however. wow.

LOL Yet you responded to my post...FACEPALM.JPG

ROFL!!!  ::) ::) ::)

OMFGi i did .. hoollylyyyy crappp. Go cchange your diaper junior.

YOLOOOO!@!!!   RTFMM!!! What other gay thing can i type in here.

ohrly?  ::)

The hindsight was not about the price of Bitcoin. Everyone who bought BFL was betting on the price of Bitcoin going up.
The hindsight was about BFL lying to him over and over about their prospects for shipping. He is only recently able to discern these misrepresentations, and even now BFL is saying that they will ship him his product soon.

Oh and Minternj is probably Inaba. A recently registered account with practically every one of its posts in BFL threads, all of them supporting BFL, and calling everyone trolls and "its the same group of trolls". When he gets pissed off, you see the similarity.

WASGAK

also
GOGOGAGA

I post in BFL threads because its like 80% of the post on the asic forum. Kind of hard to miss them. Just calling it like i see it trolly boy. How about you, whats your excuse for psoting in every BFL thread. I just like to troll the trolls.

That has nothing to do with Josh and everything to do with your own poor investment decision.  If Bitcoin was destined to go up by enough to make you $80,000, then you should have definitely bought/kept those Bitcoins!  Why on earth would you ever have sold your Bitcoins if you knew they were going to go up to $140 apiece??  Seems like a REALLY bad decision by jordaninthesky!

And better yet, if you knew that Bitcoins were going to go up from $5 to $140, why did you not take out a credit line or something?  You could have turned $2,800 into $80,000 easily!  And boom, there's your wedding!  What's a few dollars a month in credit card payments when you are getting 80 grand just 10 months down the line?

The funny thing is, whichever BFL employee it is, they are too big of a pussy to reveal who they really are.

Oh I am running low on popcorn.

Can't wait to see how Josh plans to square that 1000BTC bet with Runeks.  :P

So wha size tin foil hat you like to wear 7 1/2? 7 1/4 ? You like a flat brim or curved?

Oh no sorry my brain isn't made of shit (I mean chocolate) like yours is.

No tinfoil hat here. Just pointing out the obvious. BFL shill is BFL shill  :P

and a troll will always be a troll. Especially one hta is too dumb to know he is being trolled and keeps replying to me,

There must be something important posted in this thread. Inaba is running pages of troll posts to bury it.

I wonder if it is the order number being wrong/impossible?

Nah just bored here, waiting for EMC to call me back. Fun trolling you guys. Honest. Hey look im a full member now.

The funny thing is that you initially were the one claiming you werent going to reply yet you do lol.

Anyways I'll say it again Inaba owes Runeks 1000 BTC.

Yes shill, detract more ... :P

All these noobie accounts of BFL shills lol....

"we make ASICKZAH.....(then troll BTCTALK)"

No i didnt i just ay when im done trolling you you dont exist in my life. But its working because you are all hot and bothered now, plus now i got 2 trolls on the hook.

Who you calling a newbie. Look

<-- Full member. POST count is high now! must mean im credible.

Oh noez I am shaking in my bootzah. lol

Newbie troll got me on the hook. LOL keep telling yourself that kid.

Oh I mean...INABA/BFL EMPLOYEE/SHILL lol

they are only jealous that you received your bfl, before them
hence the trolling

Yeah I am so jealous of waiting 10 months for a product and losing out on the BULL RUN of bitcoin.

lol

Lol @ SAT vocabulary.  So awesome.

Well, when I made the purchase, I made a commitment to receiving BFL merchandise.  I can only hope that the people who operate their business operate with a similar sentiment when it comes to following through.

How do you know what you can and cannot afford?  We can afford to all die for that matter.

The proposition itself isn't risky.  It was the reliance on information given by a seemingly reputable (at least consistant) company.  The deception is a legal liability that still holds value in my favor.  At least until they vanish or squander all the money.  I don't plan on making money off of that, but it is something that only strengthens my original prepurchase -turned "investment", as well as my complaint.

Just an observation:

I have taken interest in reading through the threads popping up from people who have received at the ASIC 5 gig miner (the artist previously known as Jalapeno). In almost everyone of the threads the same small contingent of users have substantively hijacked the thread in what appears to be an attempt to proselytize others to their dislike (hate) of all things butterfly labs. If they are preorder customers why have they not gotten a refund and moved on with their life and if not customers what is the motivation behind the seemingly relentless posts regarding BFL? I find the time and energy spent fascinating and I am curious to the underlying motivations. Can any of the ministers of the Church of BFL haters shed any light on their compulsion? I do not intend to debate your position, it is well know and established. I am merely curious of its origins of the sentiment and the gusto to which you apply it.

+1

I am also curious.

BFL is full of shit...that's why lol.

 I support Bitcoin, and it's a principled stance - What is the point in waiting to receive a refund when we've waited this long already for the carrot, and it is so tantalizingly being waved in front of us, so close within reach... for months now...

+1000
It's obvious a few users have made it their goal to destroy this forum. I avoid reading anything from bitcointalk.org anymore. In fact when I find it necessary to read the forums I'm forced to skim through pages of absolute junk from the same hateful people. It used to be a great resource and had a good community. Now it's full of hate mongers.

I think everyone is aware of your position (your subtle signature line may have given it away). My question was aimed more at understanding what you gain by the hundreds of repetitive posts on the issue. Are you a slighted customer? Has BFL or one of its employees wronged you personally? I'm curious what benefit you get from the time and energy you devote to this endeavor. I am being completely earnest when I ask. I respect your position as everyone is entitled to their own opinion based on the facts as they see them. I am trying to understand what motivates you to drive this point home relentlessly on almost every thread. I ask you, because you responded, but there are a few others that share your same passion. I am hoping that in understanding your motivation I might also understand theirs.

Blame Josh. He's the BFL representative that's stoking the fire anytime he can. He thinks it brings him more business.

Yup, you caught me. I registered 14 days ago. Stated on a forum that I wouldn't be ordering any BFL products until I saw one work in a cutomer's hands, and stated that it's "vaporware" until then. Then placed a tiny order for ONE Jalpeno on a future-pay thing through Paypal, pending further customers receiving their units and demoing a working unit.

THEN, I went and also jumped in on a group buy for Avalon chips, ordered 120 chips at a cost of about 5 times what I have invested in my jalpeno order; and spend most of my time discussing the best game plan for how to maximize returns on Avalon, while pretty much forgetting about the Jalpeno until further notice (IE, it ships).

Yup, totally caught me, I'm a BFL employee who is building an Avalon-based mining farm.

Or maybe you need to lose the tinfoil hat...  ::)


The fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter if it was the fighter himself promising a win. Fighters do that all the time. "I'm gonna knock him out in 1 round!"

So again, if you pick your fighter based on how confident HE is, it's still YOUR FAULT for picking the fighter. Even if he was 1000% certain he was gonna win, there's no gurantee in life. Just because he didn't realize the fight he was actually in for beforehand doesn't mean he's responsible for YOUR bets.

If you'd invested in Yahoo early on, and then pulled millions out of Yahoo invested and reinvested in Google a few years ago, you could've been a billionare!. But you didn't. Does that mean that Yahoo owes you billions? Does it mean that your stock broker owes you billions? Nooooope.

Go crawl back under your bridge, idiot.

I agree but I am trying to understand the motivation of a vocal minority that predominates almost every thread. If they are truly still customers of BFL, waiting on a preorder, then there is an interesting dichotomy going on. If one spends hours a day denigrating a company but still retains hope that they will deliver, their is an inherent conflict at work that is fascinating. I would expect that the most vocal of the detractors are not perspective BFL customers and if the case, I am interested in understanding their motivation and the benefit they derive from their activities (an activity they pursue with great vigor)

Finally, someone noticed.

Beware of the K9, he is catching on!

(Just a note: BFL shills tend to do this same strategy. It is just page turning techniques. To counter, simply delete your old post and import it to the next page. That will drive them nuts...)

You still haven't answered why your order number is lower than the start of the pre-order queue. Avoiding it does not make it go away.

I'm angry at BFL for being shitheads in their PR department, misleading people, and generating extra liability.  I hope they deliver though.  Asics are the new platform for BTC.

I have seen Josh aggressively respond to negative comments, but I do not recall him instigating them. Regardless of Josh's response to said comments I still have not heard the underlying reasons for people posting them. What result are they seeking and what benefit does it bring the poster.

For example - I read posts and respond or post my own questions to expend my understanding on a subject or sometimes I post a, what I think is, a funny reply for entertainment purposes. In the first instance I seek to gain knowledge and in the second I seek enhance online relationships, which can then be leveraged later for more knowledge or other types of relationships both professional and personal.

I have also sometimes defended or clarified a position when I feel someone has misinterpreted something I have said, like now.

Ultimately I am trying to figure out what benefit the vocal minority derives from their posts. It may be they simply like the controversy and enjoy conflict, but I would not assume something so base without first asking; which is what I am doing.

Check into nagnag's posts. The man was not aggressive and simply wanted a refund. How then did Inaba respond to him?

Called him a liar and then thrust many....hurtful....statements towards him. Go check and be informed. There are no excuses for verbally abusing your customers.

Inaba has done this several times, some with small pre-orders, some with substantial pre-orders.

What you are lacking is a historical perspective. If you go to earlier BFL complaint threads (there are many vintages) you won't find myself and several others in them. It was only recently that anything concrete emerged from BFL that was worth speculating on. From a personal perspective, BFL has been a godsend. They sucked the air out of the ASIC market and delivered nothing in terms of hash rate to the network for months. This has enhanced the profit of every bitcoin miner. From an overall perspective of Bitcoin, it is not good if another scam engulfs the community. Since I am long Bitcoin, I want to provide the skepticism I think is due and appropriate to the get rich quick schemes that abound on these forums.

From my point of view, it is a vocal minority supporting BFL. The same cast of characters (Josh/Inaba, Kano, etc) are attempting to shout down observations, questions, and criticism. Smothie and PuertoLibre have been vocal opponents of BFL for quite some time, but I suspect that is personal due to the personality conflict that exists between Josh/Inaba and a number of people on these forums.

If you want a different cast of characters and some historical perspective, you can read the Kano/Avalon flame war. Here is a post of Kano telling jgarzik (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=541) to "fuck off and learn to read".
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=142083.msg1518424#msg1518424
That thread also touches on the genesis of Kano's support for BFL.

I have never ordered from BFL, I have no current plans to do so. I obtain my ASIC mining hardware from other sources, but I have no official (or unofficial) ties to an ASIC mining hardware developer/manufacturer.

So your interest is to... correct the "hurtful statements"? You're out here to right the wrongs? Get real. You're here to stir the pot, and drum up as much drama as you can. As was said before, it's imposible to get to anything meaningful without you trolls coming in and fucking up the SNR. It seems to be what drives you.

Personally, I don't blame Josh or other BFL reps for getting short on patience with the trolls. With a few people dedicating so much time to trolling them, what do you EXPECT their responses to be? I'd have told you and Smoothie to fuck off a long time ago, and hit the ignore button, if I was him.

Which is what I'm about to do now! Fuck off, trolls.

Fair enough  - I will go check it out. If I may ask, since you responded, what is your personal motivation? Are you presently or have you ever been a BFL customer and if so what has moved you to such a passionate position?

What is your goal by your numerous posts? Is it personal, is your goal to sway others away from BFL. It seems to me that at this point and time, people have arrived at their own opinion, after much consideration, regarding BFL. It does not seem that the extended conversations have substantively changed peoples minds one way or the other. Given this, what is it that fuels the energy and frequency of your posts and what do you hope to accomplish by them?

I believe that their comes a point in time, even if one is correct, that the frequency, aggressiveness and repetitive nature of their messages serves to actually detract from the message they are trying to convey. I am confident that there is absolutely no one on this board that has any doubt of your opinion regarding BFL. Is there any utility in your continued efforts, or are you now simply harming your own reputation and goodwill at this point? I would offer the same observation to you antithesis. If someone posted hundreds of messages that only extolled how great BFL is I would suggest it would be time to move on also.

I think there are a few outspoken individuals who see themselves as vigilantes, seeking justice in the wild wild bitcoin west. I agree they come off a little strong when in realty they could wait patiently for BFL to dig their own grave.

Anyway, it's clear to me as a newcomer that BFL's business practices have been more than shady, failing to deliver time after time while actively collecting more money. Now backed into a corner, Josh's demeanor as CEO is laughable, and his contempt for his customers is disgusting. I'm very surprised to see that he would damage his own company's credibility in such a way.

Personally I'd like to see Josh removed of any sense of being a victim to his customers, so he can buckle down and get some work done.  It's annoying to see someone representing a company trying to save the face of integrity his company is losing, by not doing his job.

I want to be clear. I am not implying that they are wrong. I do not think that I have enough information to say either way. Based on what I understand and the facts I have seen, I believe BFL will still deliver. (It will be different, slower, require more power, generate more heat). I understand these changes and limitations and have made a decision to carry on as I still feel that they are the best long term bet for ASICS. Things can change and so could my position/opinion; for now, I hold the opinion that BFL will deliver. I will not be posting this sentiment in every thread on Bitcointalk. I have stated it a few times when needed, and that is more than sufficient (hint hint)

Has anyone answered the order number questions?

#1604 is NOT possible.

What is the REAL order number?


EDIT: its the FPGA order switched to ASIC as Josh explained below.

There are a handful of people who placed orders on the tail end of the FPGA process who elected to wait for the ASICs (since they were shipping RSN (TM)) after they had already placed and paid for their order.  Scared is one of them, and we ship by date paid, not order number anyway, so it's kind of immaterial.

Make perfect sense. Thanks for clarifying.

And Upgrader hold her Position by the first pay date ??

Jala to a SIngel oder Little Singel ?

David, you are a well balanced (very objective) individual beyond reproach. So I will answer your questions to the best of my ability.

Conflicted interests is the easiest way to sum it all up.

If BFL fails to deliver, they will likely take a large number of people with them. There is an advantage to that happening since I am probably only 1 of 70 individuals holding on to an ASIC. Though at the same time, I do not see anything positive from people getting "hung to dry" by a company that over promises and under-delivers.

That is one side of the equation.

The other side of the equation: I don't have any strict loyalty to any vendor. I will go with whomever has proven themselves. Avalon was my choice due to their "All in one" unit design and Inabas inab-ility to control himself with the community. Like every BFL customer I had to look "the other way" when I saw things that made me worry about Avalon and their delivery schedule. No one likes to lose cash. I didn't have any failsafe in my payment method (Wire Transfer with actual hard earned cash). I didn't borrow from anyone, not even my CC company. I even started a DEFCON chart when my doubts were expressed about Avalon's delivery schedule.

BFL simply failed to deliver. They made promises lightly and always failed. They never seemed (nor were in my opinion) sincere with their customers. To this day 99.99% of those that have ordered have received nothing. Both a good and a bad thing for me. BFL does not seem to be intent on competing with Avalon so that depreciates their attractiveness (as a buyer).

It is a mixed bag. I am not sure there is a strategy as much as frustration.

On the one hand, I want a competitor to drive down prices. IF BFL succeeds then I have a second option. If they don't then they take a heck of a lot of customers with them and keeps ASICs in the hands of about 70 people. (well not counting ASIC miner or the batch 2 yet to be delivered by Avalon)

Keeping people away from BFL sounds sensible since the facts of their non-delivery, their attitude, their deceptive practices, their carrot wagging....pretty much makes it hard to stomach the idea of thousands of people losing money. At each step there is always something to criticize. Member "Scared" for example is one of those rare "customers" to have received a unit. Yet, he gives an order number that is seemingly impossible to be an actual order number. It is seems to be an order number that is before the pre-order queue even started. (Edit: See above for an update from Inaba on "Scared"'s order number.)

So right there, more fishy stuff. As well as the Head Customer Service agent at BFL using strange wording for how many units were going out. For example, in a blog post they said (paraphrased lightly) "We have shipped less than 12 today".

Does that mean 1? 2? 11?

Tactics like these are commonplace with BFL. Frustrating that they accept such scammy methods of propping up a badly run business. (IMO) You could basically read that statement in any way. It might be many units shipped out. Or it could be 0. Who knows? Jody's intent is much like Inaba's...to "look good" without actual substance.

As far as I can see, it's all shady promotion and plays on words. In fact, after this issue @ BFL forums, Jody has stopped putting out how many are going out. I guess that "one trick wonder" won't work a second time.

Many newbies, (not the BFL shills or employees probably pretending to be newbies), simply do not know.

They are walking in...eyes wide shut. They don't know. Just read through this thread and you'll see many of the newcomers don't know the back story. And if you read and take Inaba's positions seriously, he intentionally leads them to believe we are spouting non-sense. It is only when newbies read and inform themselves that they become immune to the BS.

People simply do not know. To those that are well worn on the topic, they are well versed in the antics that composes BFL.

I do believe there are lots of people who do not know. New people. They are walking into it without knowing any better.

I am probably (and have) harmed my own reputation. The other option is to remain silent while a largely defunct company profits from it. I just want cheaper miners. I don't really care if BFL succeeds or fails. I do care though that they are doing it on the backs of newbies and huge Advertising budgets to those that don't know.

If you throw a big enough net, you'll eventually catch enough suckers to keep any sordid operation going.

------------------------------

The whole solution to this problem is knowing the actual state of things at BFL. As of a month ago BFL stopped telling anyone what was actually happening.

So for all we know, their few orders going out are simply prototype to stave off the claims at Paypal. (check the blogs at BFL forums)

Or

It could be the start of their actual shipping cycle. Which do you prefer to believe? So far the order numbers people are giving are incongruent with normalcy.

Is it a sham or a start? We shall soon know.

What happened to the 1/3 1/3 1/3 plan?

josh ?

wooooow, wait - you trying to nail down bfl on statements they made?! big mistake!

Makes me wish I had ordered Jala's instead of Singles, given that I was an FPGA upgrader as well!   ;)

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I will keep both my eyes and mind open. I really appreciate the time you took to explain your position. I hope everything works out beneficially for all

Well, I'm a BFL customer, and here's my story:

I ordered the 60GHash version back in early March.  I had been watching closely and figured that while their R&D process was being dogged by Murphy's Law, there was at least an 80% chance they'd ship before they got strung out too far and imploded (taking my money with 'em.)

I paid using the BitPay BTC to USD option, because at the time I'd spent zero direct dollars on BTC (mined every coin I had), and figured I'd just pay for the Bitcoin stuff with BTC.  (Seemed only natural.)

So, I knew at the time of payment that it was a gamble, and I'll bet most of the other people did too.  I'm following with great interest, but I'm not losing any sleep over it.

1.  I'm not worried about the fact they haven't meaningfully shipped yet.  The possibility I might never see any hardware existed then, and still exists today.  It's a little bit of a gamble just like everything else associated with Bitcoin right now.

2.  I'm not upset that the value of BTC climbed and there's a loss in opportunity cost while I wait.  I factored this in at the time.

3.  I personally find it refreshing that Josh is voicing a real, human presence in the forums, even if he does get sucked in by the trolls once in a while.  There was a book in the business section back in the 90s called "The Cluetrain Manifesto" that advocated communicating with your customers as a human being, not a corporate robot.  Because marketing is about relationship building, and people have relationships with people, not companies.  And there's no disputing that Josh is engaging us as a human being, here.  For better or for worse.

Overall, my concern level about this is about 3 on a 10 scale, and if I do wind up losing my money altogether (which may still happen), my disappointment will be maybe 5 on a 10 scale, because I knew it was a possibility at the outset.  Everyone that pre-ordered with BFL knew there was a risk of delay or failure, or it wouldn't be a pre-order.

So here's what fascinates me:

Why are people who aren't even customers so much more upset about this stuff than actual customers?  It's seriously a lot of time and (apparent) emotional investment into a game in which you have no skin.  Pure troll factor?

Wow  :o  PuertoLibre,I think that is the best post you have ever written!!!!!!!!!!!!!  8)

I have to give you a trollfactor of 0 on that one  :D

Keep talking like that & I may have to friend you on FB  :D

I paid 13btc when I ordered mine.   :(

I just can't understand how anyone could defend BFL unless he/she has an incentive to do it (promised early machine or something) or hopes he might get one by placing himself in their backs.

Us old timers lived through the Mybitcoin.com debacle. We lived through the Bitcoin Savings and Trust implosion. We were here for the Bitcoinica apocalypse. We saw Mooncoin run off with everyone's money.  We saw exchanges get hacked and coins get stolen. We have seen fraud after scam after con appear on these forums. Noobies show up with dollar signs in their eyes, get fleeced of their cash and dumped in the gutter.

It is not healthy to let this sort of thing continue. A bit of skepticism is healthy.
Trying to shout down skeptics only adds fuel to the fire, and is usually an indication that the shouters have something to hide.

Different value system than yours.

Ah, that makes sense.  I might suggest that some here go well beyond skepticism.

Edit: does "being registered two weeks before me" really give you "old timer" status relative to me?

Seems legit Mr. Mahatma :P

I've made one mistake in that post though, "I just can't undestand" should be replaced with "There's no chance in hell"

I don't understand why people bother trolling for no reason/gain.  Seems a waste of time to me.  But I assume they have a different value system than mine, and therefore different motivations.

In this thread, there are a lot of people trying to claim that I (as a customer of BFL) should think or feel or act a certain way, but I don't.  I find such implications somewhere between silly and offensive, and said as much.

I do it because I don't like people to be wrong on the internet.  If something needs to be corrected, I correct it.  BFL didn't purposefully do anything malicious, so I defend them.  They don't deserve to have various non-customers on the Bitcointalk forum slander them.

I think it's fair to warn everybody reading here that NO MORE PREORDERS should be placed until they really prove they can give PRECISE delivery dates for both past and new orders.

I think it is fair to warn everybody about past performance, but it is not fair to tell them what to do.  If people want to place preorders, it's no business of yours.  Warn them that BFL has only delivered a handful of units since taking preorders back in 2011.  Warn them that BFL has no precise delivery date.  But who are you to decide whether it is a good or bad investment for them?  That is a decision for them to make.

I don't understand, is there some kind of mind control going on that I don't know about?

People will read Rampions message and take heed. That is their choice. The rest of the "hostages" will have to wait to see what happens or bail.

In fact they have delivery dates, which has been proved A LIE for +6 months. Delays and more delays. It's outrageous to see how they send a few units to PR guys and WIRED magazine just to keep the money flowing in their preorder backlog. Man, how could you not feel that? They should be working their asses off in order to explain to their customers when they will be able to manufacture en ship en masse, but they seem to spend all their energy trolling in these forums and in PR stunts + aggressive advertising.

It's a shame.

+1

congrats, happy for you

There are facts in what you say, but there are also conclusions presented as facts that seem fueled by frustration.

Fact: They missed deadlines.  But the word "lie" implies intent.  How can you be absolutely sure their project plans didn't reflect the ship dates that they stated at that time?  It's absolutely fair to say that they were wrong about the dates, but the conclusion of intent is unsupported by any facts I'm aware of.  They've been quite transparent about the problems they've been having (tho I do feel that they're somewhat overdue for an update atm.)  Unsupported conclusions are not "facts."

Fact: They've been marketing and doing press at the same time they've been working on product and missing deadlines.  But to imply that they're spending 'all of their energy' on these things to the exclusion of working on shipping products is (at best) hyperbole.

I too am disappointed that it's taken this long for them to ship, but I don't feel that disappointment and frustration give a person license to present, as fact, conclusions based on two-thirds fact and one-third anger.

BFL has been caught in so many misrepresentations to date, all of which has been documented to death on this forum.
People claim there is no evidence of "intent". While defending their specs they made claims about the state of their chips and performance measurements of units that supposedly existed. Given what we know now, those claims could not possibly have been merely in error.

The reason why so many of these threads appear is because of people like you. You refuse to read the evidence presented in past threads, so we have to rehash the same stuff over and over again. Then Josh and his Sockpuppet show appears and starts yelling about trolls and calling everyone names.

Right up until the end, people believed in Pirate40 and defended him. I hope this is not history repeating itself. Yet again.

Their whole communication approach is not helping at all. I really hope some real competition flourish in this market, we need that.

You see this behavior a lot..  attack the dumbest argument cast at you so you look smart and on the ball while all the other hard questions go unanswered..

what is keeping BFL from shipping 400 a day like Josh boasted many times?

Except... that's not really true.  Not terribly surprising coming from you, but none the less.  Trolls like you like to trot this out but to date, not a single one has been able to produce any evidence to back up this claim.  Meanwhile, in reality-land, I have provided numerous links and evidence to the contrary.  It's funny how you make these claims but never once back up your statements, but you keep at it, hoping someone will believe your BS.


Ahh the wonderful sockpuppet defense.  For the record, BFL has exactly zero sockpuppet accounts.  Just like poor little Bryan Micon and his claims of a massive BFL Bot army downvoting his ridiculous little Reddit rants, it's just impossible for people like you, who have a tenuous grasp on reality at best, to believe that rational people actually evaluate the situation and the facts in a coherent manner and come to the logical conclusion.  Your little warped sense of reality doesn't really hold up to any sort of thorough or really even a cursory investigation.  It's why this particular subforum on Bitcointalk is the ass end of the internet - so many lies and deceit perpetrated by people with agendas, unbalanced sense of reality or just plain crazy, most rational people stay far, far away from it.  

There's a little handful of you trolls who troll every BFL thread.  I wouldn't even be posting here if there was moderation weeding out your useless little diatribes, but since there's none, here I am, arguing with idiots. :)  It's like a hobby at this point.  One I could certainly leave behind and be glad to be rid of it, let me tell you.  Maybe one day we'll get some real moderation here and Bitcointalk can become a place where rational adults can have discourse again, but not until people like PL, Syke, k9quaint, etc are all perma-banned.

 You have absolutely no license or credibility to speak about having a firm grasp of reality.

I think it is they don't have enough preorder customer money. Why else would they ship the first units to PR people?

So far there isn't a slew of devices from BFL being shipped out. What < 20? < 10?

You can't build an ASIC product overnight, which is what they keep claiming to do. In mid-Oct they claimed they'd still ship in Oct, yet they had no chips or anything close to a working product. Their schedule has been impossible to meet. That can only mean they lied about it.

Folks, if you don't believe us and instead believe Inaba, PLEASE, read the past (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=8198;sa=showPosts). It will give you absolutely all the answers you need.

A troll would not say this. There is plenty to show, the mere claims made that we are idiots is nothing more than a ball of smoke to convince the most willfully ignorant.

Do your homework before you invest in that company. When you do, come on here and tell us what you found and you will shed more light on the subject and counter many of Inaba's spurious claims. Some of us are more antagonistic than others because we already know better.

Do your homework before you throw down thousands of dollars on these folks. Know their company inside and out before you pay at the checkout as you have only yourself to blame if you lose anything.

Visit the BFL forums and go to the very first pages. Learn the truth!

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/index2.html

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/index23.html

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/jalapeno-single-sc-support/index11.html

Here is you claiming 60w power usage and shipping in 2 weeks in Nov 2012:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119460.msg1314947#msg1314947
Here is you claiming the Jalapeno was getting FCC approval in 2 weeks and you were waiting for the test lab to issue the test report in Nov 2012. Oh, and that you were testing "all the devices at once" as if you actually had stuff that worked.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119351.msg1314335#msg1314335
Here is you betting on BFL @ 1.1GH/watt
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119351.msg1314335#msg1314335
And that is after looking through a few pages of you calling everyone on these boards trolls and douchebags. I'd rather not look through hundreds of posts of you being an ass. I will just find one of the summary threads where this has been composed and collated nicely.


It is actually a handful of people who defend BFL. A couple of low post count month old accounts that only post in BFL threads, Kano and you.
We know why Kano is pimping for BFL.
It doesn't look like the same cast of characters attacking you as before:
http://communityhosting.net/ih/images/clownsagai.jpg
Except for PuertoLibre it is a whole new cast.

 So, Mr. Zerlan. Care to explain further about "so many lies and deceit perpetrated by people with agendas, unbalanced sense of reality or just plain crazy"

 It would seem clear to me that YOUR agenda is to shirk all responsibility or honor for your prior commitments.

He is probably busy deleting the posts.  ;)

are you shipping 400 a day like you boasted many times or not?

simple question which of course you avoided

Take a look at this shocking development:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/2004-i-want-cancel-my-order-been-week-no-response-office%40butterflylabs-2.html

Do you think he will get his Jalepeno immediately?

Comments welcome...

I hope that "Due to high number of messages, please allow 1-2 weeks for responses from office@butterflylabs.com" isn't people requesting refunds.
I wonder if they have enough cash to refund all their pre-orders, or will it become first come first serve?

If bASIC (a former competitor to BFL) is any indication of what happens as a company implodes....

I suppose it is a true First In, First Out type of situation when it comes to refunds.

I am more interested in whether or not Paypal will do anything. Lets hope this man gets thrown to the front of the queue rather than jettisoned.

Edit: 2 weeks is a shocking amount of time...

k9quaint, you, once again, are apparently too dense to understand the difference between being wrong and "misrepresentation."  Since you're unable to even differentiate between two very simple words, we really don't have much to discuss.  I recommend trying to learn basic English before trying to debate me.  You're pathetic it at.

But lets look at the BFL clown crew:  Tom is a scammer, no surprise there.  BitcoinINV, another scammer... no surprise there. CreativeX is still around trolling, as is Syke. Cedivad and Abracadabra have a BFL order now, shocker.  ElectricMusic has stopped? He drops in to troll now and again, but I've had him on ignore for a long time.  Abracadabra... yep BFL order.  That leaves SolarSilver.

Let's tally:

9 BFL clown crew total.
2 Scammers
2 BFL converts
4 Trolls still trollin' hard
1 MIA (SolarSilver)

So yeah... 44% still trolling, 22% BFL, 22% scammers and 11% Other. Gonna go with: k9quaint: FAIL

 Kinda like your October or November 2012 shipping dates were wrong and "misrepresentation" ?

They require 1 to 2 weeks to respond to refunds?

To me that sounds like they are trying to delay refunding customers en masse because they dont have enough funds to keep things operational.

Refunds should not take 2 weeks. lol come on most businesses don't take that long to refund an order. Most take 2-3 business days max.

But then again we arent talking about a normal business this is BFL we are talking about.

1. Your best response is word games?

2. You keep avoiding important questions (i.e. why does it take 2 weeks to get a response concerning a refund?).

3. Also you keep calling us lying sacks of shit yet I haven't lied about your 1000BTC bet. You still have not proved you paid Runeks.

4. Keep avoiding important questions and only respond to arguments that boil down to DEFINITIONS and SPELLING word games.

Lol, he's keeping track on everyone who hassles him on a forum, glimpsing over the solid points against him, deleting people "defaming bfl" (as if it's possible), but he can't check e-mails.  Hmm... Loose ends.  He likes grape guys.  Did you know that?

I would think the COO of BFL could at least help out in the handling process of customer refund requests via email given he has so much time to post on the forums.

I mean if he has nothing better to do and there is a huge 2 week BACKLOG on customer refund requests what does that imply? Not manufacturing devices enmasse 400/day as claimed or can't keep up with refunding customers their moniez because you folks dont have enough to refund?

Evidence please Josh as you request is all to provide.


Also you still have not provided any evidence that you settled your 1000 BTC bet with user Runeks.

Still waiting...

(anticipation of more "you lying sacks of shit" response). :P

[refund customers]  <----------?--------  [BFL] --------?-----------> [ship en mass ASICs]


1. Can't ship en mass ASICs to fill backlog of 20k-60k orders because not enough funds to produce orders.

2. Need to spam advertisements to get new customer money to pay for customer refunds AND production/materials for ASICs.

3. Ship first units to PR people to get more attention and possibly more customer money.

See BFL can't exist without NEW & OLD customer preorder monies. Hence their initial June 2012 post.


ADVERTISEMENT SPAM ---> CUSTOMER PREORDER MONEY  -----> REFUND CURRENT CUSTOMERS
                                                                                    -----> FUND EXISTING PREORDERS
                                                                                    -----> ADVERTISEMENT SPAM ---> CUSTOMER PREORDER MONEY

-----> REFUND CURRENT CUSTOMERS
-----> FUND EXISTING PREORDERS
-----> ADVERTISEMENT SPAM ---> CUSTOMER PREORDER MONEY  -----> REFUND CURRENT CUSTOMERS ...


See any pattern here? This reminds me of a ponzi.

Before I read subsequent posts of this thread, I wish to comment that this is excellent response by Josh, one of which upon reading I have no reason to doubt its validity.

Does anyone know what the delivery time is expected to be now if orded today? It seems to in constant flux.

Something's not right!


My sister works for an outfit that ships goods to convenience stores. She single handedly directs the entire fleet drivers replying to over 300-400 emails a day along with her other activities her title consist of, and she's not what one would consider management material, if you know what I mean, but she's able to conduct this task without blinking an eye better than the previous person who had some type of college degree.

She does handle company money in a sense that when a driver reaches the maximum amount of time he's allowed to be on the road, she books a hotel for them, paying for it with the company CC.

If I remember correctly, the CS staff count consisted of  ~6-8 people with more being hired, and that was months ago when that was expressed by BFL.

What the hell has changed?


Projection times will no longer be supplied by BFL until units are ready to be shipped, so quit asking.

So as I expected there is NO GOOD REASON why BFL needs 2 weeks to respond to customer refund requests via email.

Other than not having enough funds to accomodate all the requests for refunds.

Prediction: The wait time for refund requests will grow over the next 4 months if BFL can't garner any new money to come and subsidize those wanting their money back.

"Projection times will no longer be supplied by BFL until units are ready to be shipped, so quit asking."

Can i just ask where did you see this?

I don't know everyone does as a job but I've been a hardware engineer for 20 years and this is the worst project management ever,
suppose that all of bitcoin is like betting on black.......

Yup. Liked it much more back then as well. Occasionally saw some people whining about Atlas, or the latest scam. But that was the only bad thing back then that I can remember. Once summer came around, and rumors of ASIC started, everything went downhill.

<Runs into a raging frantic panic>

NEVER SPEAK OF THIS....AGAIN.  :o ;D

BFL will never fold. There is always an idiot in the wings ready to save it with his hard earned cash! Folks your money is at absolutely no risk. Josh has said so. Josh is dependendable, reliable, trustworthy....and above all else, in it for the bitcoin community. He will never put anyone at risk.

Smoothie is just thinking of the "worst case scenario".

If worst comes to worse, I will buy BFL assets at .005 cents (or BTC) on the dollar. I cannot guarantee I will give anyone any of those assets. But I am sure that someone will.

So rest assured, you have my word and that of Inaba. That is the full faith of the BitCoin <laughed uncontrollably while writing that> community.

 ;D

Thats it. I am going to turn into a shill for the next week. I want to see what it feels like to be totally deluded and at the same time lie profusely.

I think there must be ?a thrill? to it in causing other people irreparable harm? Or perhaps the verbal abuse and hard and unyielding facts of the past make it pleasurable to endure despite that?

I suspect masochistic/sadist tendencies may grow out of my shill behavior...but lets see if people actually believe me when I tell them everything will absolutely be alright.

-------

Alright, Smoothie, give me your best shots. I will take you on single handedly. Josh is a saint and you should know better.

You just try your best with your dirty truths....and facts... :D

Smoothie,

Two weeks is an incredibly short amount of time for BFL to answer their emails. It is appropriate that they put in alot of thought into each and every response. Even if they look the same, down deep in the HTML code, a piece of their soul is transmitted with each message. This takes time and a state of Zen.

You have to understand that customers are asking difficult questions. They need more time to ponder on what these questions ultimately mean for them, the world and the Bitcoin community.

----------------

On the topic of the past, it's in the past. Just forget it ever happened. We all grow from each experience. Josh is not the same person he was yesterday.

What he said before no longer applies today. Promises are meant to grow and change with time. Please understand. Please stop attacking Inaba with memories of times gone by. Please....I beg you.  :D

LOL! It seems even native speakers have difficulties with the syntax.

It's okay, hes human.

To err, is to be human.  :D

Puerto,

OMFG! ROFL! HAHA!

You being a shill is even more entertaining!

Please don't stop defending BFL they need a shill like you to uphold the BFL code of ETHIX.

 :D

Looking from the side, as a customer I would expect only 2 things when I buy something.

1. For the product to be delivered on time
2. For the product to work as advertised

 BFL fails my a mile at both, the rest of the talk is simply not important. But in my country if these 2 points would fail, and I cant get my money back in 24 hours, IRS would be closing them down in next 7 days

Eheheheheh

On advice from your lawyers, you will not admit to making misrepresentations here. I do not expect you to. Nor am I debating you, I know you can never admit to what you have done. I am doing this so that when people ask if they should order BFL we can point them to this thread and they can watch you twist in the wind.
And it is you who should be taking English classes (as others have pointed out).


Just you and Kano. And you wouldn't even have him if Avalon had ponied up a free unit for him.

LOL! Josh oh your fails are so entertaining. If BFL implodes oh is there going to be a lot of popcorn poppin.  :D :D :D

And me.  And perhaps SgtSpike.  And probably others reasonably afraid to enter this discussion: I've mostly stayed out of it, because the level of hate and vitriol spewed at anyone who takes a rational position is off the charts.

Fortunately, I wore my flame-retardant Underoos today.  So I'm all set.

You seem a reasonable sort by your post history. But you didn't even mention BFL until April 1st, and then you posted in the shipping bet thread. I believe we were discussing the people who have been "constantly trolling" in BFL threads. I wouldn't count your post history as someone who has been consistently participating in the discussion. Josh labels the people who post counter arguments to his claims as "trolls" and there was just a small number of us and it is the same old people. My counter assertion was that from our point of view, the people who disagree with Josh are a varied lot (except for PuertoLibre who has been here from the start) and it was just Josh and Kano who have been "trolling" in the BFL threads consistently. Josh especially by calling people douches, liars, trolls, etc.

SgtSpike has been around a lot as well.

You seem to support BFL's claims that they were just mistaken and there was no malice involved. Let us examine just one "mistake" for the moment:
How can you explain their statement that all 3 devices were sent for FCC testing (according to Josh in Nov 2012) at the same time and should be certified in 2 weeks. Fast forward to March, when there was only 1 device operating and it remained on the BFL premises (according to Luke) but somehow "shipped" to Luke. 3 working products supposedly sent to the FCC in November, I presume the 5, 25, and 50 GH/s devices. The Jalapeno could not have existed because it could not be powered by USB, it drew too much wattage, let alone the heat problems requiring them to use 25GH/s case and heatsink for it. Yet somehow, they sent a working version of all these devices to be certified? How on earth could the Chief Operations Officer be so out of touch with the state of BFL's products that he could make this mistake?

I'm trying to find the original for that, but Google isn't being my friend today.  Can you help?

And yeah, the whole "shipping before April" and bet thing was a clusterfuck.

Here is the most definitive statement he made about it on bitcointalk (that I have found so far)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119351.msg1314335#msg1314335
Here is SgtSpike himself asking the same question on the BFL forums at the end of January:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/690-13-jan-2013-asic-update-discussion-thread-41.html
There was no answer as far as I could find in Josh's post history.

Garsh!  I wonder why we've been delayed?  It couldn't be because there was a problem, could there?  Garsh!  

The level of stupidity displayed by Syke and the crew is absolutely astounding.  I mean, even a child can understand problem + delay = things not working.  Seriously, what mental breakdown is required for someone to be so oblivious as to not understand the basic fundamental principal of cause and effect?  I find it difficult to believe someone can be so incredibly stupid and still be able to use a computer.  So that leaves willful trolling... which pretty much explains Syke and the rest.

And that, folks, is why Syke, PuertoLibre, k9quaint, et al are complete wastes of humanity.  They are the ones that wreck this forum for everyone else and prevent any sort of sane, rational, mature discourse.

I was wondering what steps one might take in order to become a BFL shill?  Is there a form to fill out?  I want my jalapeños early and am willing to sell my soul to BFL to get mine so I can start mining before difficulty starts to suck.
 
So could someone PM me the URL for the application process?
 
Thanks in advance!

Yep, to be classified as a BFL shill on Bitcointalk, you must:

a) Be rational
b) Be able to evaluate what you read without rage and bias
c) Post according to your evaluation
d) Not be mentally unbalanced

That's the only requirements to be a BFL shill.

So why is the 5 GH/s unit shipping without FCC approval?

Bolded is where you down played the problems and made them seem not as bad as they really were...

hence all of your "2 more weeks"..."shipping soon"..."oct, nov, dec, jan, feb, mar, apr"

Oh and your insults only show how shallow you really are. Can't have a civil discussion without getting all emotional? Butthurt much? LOL

At first I have to admit I also felt some of these guys were "over the top" and should relax but now I completely understand. There are so many shady characters in the Bitcoin community that many feel the need to root them out and reveal the bullshit, for better or worse. Josh does have a pretty thick smoke screen but there is one basic fact that many of these vigilantes above are trying to make everyone aware of. Josh/BFL has been saying "just a few more weeks" over and over for months and months WAY past the point of credibility. All of these other tedious arguments/insults/etc are really just a distraction from this main point. I don't have the time nor passion to constantly call Josh out so kudos to those that do...

Yet another evasion. Josh never addresses how in November he claimed to have 3 working products sent for certification testing. Yet the Jalapeno as designed was untenable and could never have worked. The mini-rig was an absolute fantasy given its 7500W power profile. One Single barely limped into the dubious category of shipped without leaving BFL on April 1st. We now know BFL had serious problems with development (finally). If you had just admitted that you needed to do a complete redesign in October, I wouldn't be here typing this.


Followed by his standard tactic of insulting those who dare to disagree or question him.

Little known fact; a bag of dicks contains exactly 17 dicks.  It is known as a "hooker's dozen".

From the Advertise on this forum - Round 80

Why spend 22.75 BTC advertising on a forum that isn't relevant to mining hardware?

Shakes fist ANGRILY: "Thats not truuee!"

You liar!

You can totally give people an e-money printing machine and that will neither affect their income or their attitude. You ASSUME too much. You ASSume that they will make that e-currency into fiat USD and thereby affect their opinions.

Where is your proof of that? HUH? Where? Post it Damnit!?

(Master BFL Shill)

Thats right!

There was just a delay in sending it to the post office and FCC for 7 plus months. These things happen!

Why can't you folks understand and accept it?

Yes, we are total wastes of flesh, but he is not. Because he is "Special". That is why no one depends on us for delivery. Only on him. It is unfortunate that he has missed his shipping date more than 15 times. But this sort of things happen. ASIC are HARD.  :D

(Looks over at his Avalon ASIC and thinks those Chinese engineers must have super [genetically engineered] scientist working 24x7 to have made it in three months and ahead of schedule. What a fearsome people!)

How can you expect Inaba, with more money weighing him down, and more resources....to complete it in such a short time?! Does he look genetically engineered to you?! He is a mere mortal! "Special" Mortals can only do so much in 170+ days. We don't all have access to ASIC engineers of that kind of quality and experience!


(Master BFL Shill)

Give Inaba your money! NOW

He WILL pull through...trust me. Just...trust me.

(Master BFL Shill)

Dam and they say you don't learn anything from these forums !  TY ! - i am certainly going to use that in a sentence tomorrow !

Just believe in your heart of hearts that Inaba will do no wrong. If he says something, it is always true. TRUST HIM.

Just do it.®


(Master BFL Shill)

While the statement that he's waiting on test lab certification was weaselly enough to make some lawyers blush, it's not false.  In fact, it's still true.

Since the actual certification for a non-transmitting device should take only 2-3 days (http://www.agiletestgroup.com/site/fcccompliance.html), one could charitably presume that he was hoping to get a device in for testing within a week or two or three, and that the timeframe wouldn't be far off.  If one were feeling charitable.  If it were actually in a lab, he wouldn't have needed the "maybe," which is a tip that he wasn't being entirely forthright at the time, and knew it, so I'll concede the point that they were being intentionally misleading.  But you could also infer that they thought they were close enough to having working devices that the statement wouldn't turn out to be false.

Still... blame it on malice, or unbridled/irrational optimism?  I've worked with a lot of project managers that wouldn't even admit to themselves when a deadline was slipping, and somehow managed to be shocked when all of the milestone delays turned into a missed shipping date.  It didn't make them bad people, just bad project managers.

That BFL has managed this project badly has been acknowledged by, I think, everyone involved in the discussion, even BFL.

Is he even addressing anybody anymore, or is this the dialogue the comes out when a BFL_ Josh doesn't "work" right?

Here's cause and effect.  Cocky Asshole -> Unintended/intended ponzi scheme.

I mean, someone invests $30K into you and you call them stupid.  Obviously you have no shame about your inside out anus.  You have to be angrier, and less gay, if you want this thing to blow up like you hoped, but the way you keep company you can only have "friends" that you pity.

Sad Josh, his scheme isn't making him happier.

I just wonder how long it's going to take before we all find out that the 6 "burnt out" (missing) wafers with no proof of insurance ended up in someone's facility.  Bitcoin fans will regard the legacy of Bitcoin, and the act of hunting you and prosecuting you (by the law of whatever man catches you), will be part an epic chapter of how BTC became more secure, and more trusted.  (Hopefully they don't kill you in the end, but that might depend on how stubborn you are in turning over your wallet)

A false statement that was Intentionally misleading regarding a material aspect of product development is the only thing I am trying to prove.

Damnit K9!

You have infected my friend DataPlumber with your dirty truths. How DARE you show him the past with FACTS. You total scumbag  :D ;)...what did you think would happen?

Now DP is all confused and conceeding things. You people!

@ DP

BELIEVE...TRUST...let it "seep in" to your bones.

(Master BFL Shill)

I'll have to agree with Smoothie on this point:  you are a lot more entertaining as the Master Shill, instead of being the trollish master at baiting people.

A reasonable explanation:  They sent in the QFN-packaged version before they knew of the heat issues faced, and did or did not get it certified.  Doesn't really matter, since they had to redesign the whole thing anyway.

The heat issues were so severe that I doubt they escaped notice under any circumstances. The product needs to be able to function for a reasonable period of time to test for RF leakage. It is not just an on/off sort of test. I would imagine if they actually got certification that it would have been paraded in front of the naysayers as proof that a product existed.

It is only because they had to redesign the whole thing that we are even talking about any of this. They were in a serious marketing war with Avalon and bASIC at the time and could not afford to show any weakness lest their investors start ask for refunds.

Can you actually mine other cryptocoins with that?

Only SHA256 coins, not scrypt which limits the choice a lot.

PPC, TRC are two possible candidates, though you then have to find something useful to do with those alt coins. If you have to convert them to BTC, you might as well just mine the BTC.

FRC

Which you can trade for USD, CNY and EUR. Also it is profitable at 399% of BTC given the coinchoose ratings http://coinchoose.com/.  Don't get me wrong I hope everyone doesn't use their BFL rigs for FRC... or at the very least they get them WELL after I get a working set of Klondike boards from BKK. I think I have as much chance of getting 160 GH/s on to FRC in August as someone waiting for BFL. Although I would prefer that BFL fails to deliver I really feel the customers deserve their units as soon as possible. It is beyond ridiculous at this point for BFL to promise anything. This is where they should stfu and roll up their sleeves and stop jerking with the shipping and reworking the contract conditions to fuck everyone of their customers over and get it fucking done already.

If I get a working ASIC machine before most BFL customers I would say that BFL are completely and utterly-useless considering that an open source board with working ASIC chips could be developed in as little as 3 months. I have more faith in the open source development people than anything BFL is offering at this point especially considering the "clawback" shipping they are employing which I think might be a ploy to cover investors? Bank Loans? Mortgages on their homes? Who knows what these shady people are up to that is why I am glad to have control over most of pathways to get my own chips to boards.

FRC might be viable, it just depends on when ASICs are actually available. This pre-order caper is for the birds. When someone like Apple take pre-orders, it's usually for a month or so before the release date of a new product, and usually on that date they will have a million units packaged and ready to ship. I remember when the iPad first came out, I did a pre-order and on the release date about 11am in the morning a courier turns up with my iPad. That is customer service how it can be done, and in much bigger volumes with the associated problems than either BFL or Avalon pre-orders.

Like you, I am also interesting in the Avalon boards as well as the BFL devices, but I am not going to order one until they are finished, tested, and reviewed by the people on this forum at least.

Help BFL to save their money their customers money


Petition: BFL should no longer be allowed to advertise here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=194488.0/)

 :D :D :D

I've been watching with quite a bit of interest, and I must confess, a high degree of amusement.

Inaba, I haven't been around long enough to know you or your history well enough, so this is a bit of a disclaimer. I chose this post because of one particular statement, rather than to be personal. It applies in varying degrees to everyone involved in this brawl. Yes, I said BRAWL.

All of you have demonstrated, damn near in textbook fashion, all of the logical fallacies that any debater should know and understand before opening their mouth, let alone laying fingers to the keyboards. While what y'all are doing is entertaining, and sometimes informative, referring to it as debate is disingenuous at best.

If you (collectively) want to at least APPEAR to be debating, I suggest you follow this link and learn something of the art. http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html (http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html)

That being said, I am highly interested in the BFL line of products, and deeply concerned about the troubles of the company. I don't think BFL is a deliberate scam, but the business practices they have demonstrated are deeply troubling. I want to buy a couple of the high end machines, but can't currently justify the risk. I may pre order the little guy just to see what happens, but honestly it's ROI is unlikely to be very good even at that price by the time BFL ships. IF BFL ships.

Those of you who seem to have some inside influence or acquaintance with BFL would be serving your contacts well to put 'em up against a wall and explain basic economics and basic ethical business to them. It's fairly simple. Don't bullshit your customers. If you got a problem, especially on something highly speculative like this, you don't be vague, you TELL those who are invested or thinking about it UP FRONT. Most of us understand. What we don't understand is being obfuscatory. It makes you look like you are being deliberately shady, even if you're just reacting. The truth may hurt, but the rumour mill created by being anything less than honest WILL hurt more.

I understand you skepticism, I too would not order a large BFL unit until an order for a small unit is fulfilled and the worthiness of the supplier is confirmed. The delay is extremely worrying, because the ROI is dropping at an exponential rate due to the BTC difficulty increases. If the myriad of small Avalon chip projects start shipping before BFL clears a substantial portion of it's pre-orders, I suspect they will get a lot of cancellations as people want to be mining now, not months down the track. The clock is ticking.

I won't be ordering anything else from them.

Everything they do is sloppy. Very sloppy. So sloppy they have become my model for what not to do as a company (BlockBurner). Eventually they basically admitted they sold a pile of vaporware as their design was not even fully fleshed out and tested yet, forcing their hand to re-design the whole line at our expense.

I accepted I may never see my investment again when I made the order, but that doesn't give them the right to bend us all over.

I have a Jally coming at some point, but my shipping address is wrong and cannot be edited directly. Customer service emails are going into a black hole (2 weeks with nothing so far).

There is a crew of amateurs under the glossy veneer. I don't think I'm the only one that feels this way about them.

idc if they are :P still jelly bout the jally

+1

Sorry for your pain.

Careful now that would be WILD speculation about VAPOURWARE. I am so glad that you agree with my observations almost point for point on this with regards to BFL and it's shaky future and potential to lose a large portion of the market share in ASICs. The writing is on the wall.

Ya know, I'm surprise BFL isn't selling quantum computing miners already.  I'll bet a dime to a donut that they would sell the shit out of them.

Well, there you have it.
You cannot possibly be a BFL shill.

What i think in BFL .

Well I actually feel dumber for having skimmed this entire thread.

As evidence of the afore mentioned increase in my stupidity I'm posting here.

I was unable to find any definitive answers whatsoever in here or anywhere else....

Core Question:

Have we confirmed that this is a legit delivery?

or is this just a bad PR stunt to make it seem like they are actually shipping?

The "we've shipped 20 or 30" quote from BFL smells like spin put on a product still languishing in prototype phase.

.....and my other conclusion:

BFL really needs to hire an actual PR firm and take away Josh's access to the forum.....

Josh: I'm actually dumfounded by your rants...surely you don't suppose you're bolstering support with these petty back-and-forth jabs.   I'm sure you're fringe target client is a zit-faced over indulgent teenage brat but I'd venture to say your target client is far older, mature, affluent, and totally turned off by this kind of rhetoric.  You've lost my future business and you've made the future PR person's job a nightmare.   For your own good send somebody polite, courteous, and amenable to the conference this month and then go find a gym to work out your issues while they do their best not to choke on the foot you've jammed in BFL's mouth.

Not only does A, B, C, and D all essentially revolve around "A", I lol'd at mobodick's response.

i think BFL in big Trouble because they shipped only 20 units to media so they get more money from free advertising  .

but is there actually a credible media source that has confirmed receiving a unit?

Don't you think Wired magazine or the author of cgminer are credible?

All the data from these two sources, point to pre-production prototypes...not production units, and were still painfully shy of the supposed amount shipped out at this point.

If you have other evidence or thread links to the contrary this would be a great place to post them.

This of course goes back to the credibility of the first post of this thread as well.

If you have any evidence that they were not production units, I would like to see it.

Would meeting specification be an indicator of "production" quality level units?

What is the definition of "production" units before we ask for evidence.

There were nice unboxing pictures from the first Avalon...
There were nice stats and verifiable hash numbers put up...
There were certainly a number of different metrics used to evaluate that first machine from Avalon...

What have we got from BFL metrics wise on this machine as compared to those who have received them?

That is a telling situation and definitely points to something that is not PRODUCTION quality. Can you show me where anyone has done any in-depth analysis like the first Avalon?

Arrives


Reviews it next day in depth



Compared to the OP? Where are the reviews? Shouldn't they be posted somewhere?

 It would be more credible if cklovias got the Jally; Kano just comes across as a bragging douche-nozzle and, tangentially, probably does more harm to BFL's image than good out of the Jally deal.

 Giving one to Wired / Media was a transparent attempt at trying to regain a semblance of legitimacy in the public eye; Josh Zerlan has admitted these forums and patrons are not important to their business so it's pretty evident they are in full-on damage control/survival mode now.

This +1

I confirmed in the cgminer thread and a few others, including even this thread, that I have received a unit and helped develop the driver for it. However there is so much noise on these forums that I long ago lost interest in trying to contribute meaningfully to every (or even any) BFL hardware related threads. Presumably my meaningful post about receiving one got forgotten in said noise.

Thanks for letting us know ! Don't usually check the Cgminer thread - Your software has never been a problem :) Must have missed your other post in this thread.

Seems like it. Their "customer service" is basically non existent, hiding behind a bunch of lame excuses for why it takes weeks to get a reply from anyone there. I've been over on their boards calling this out to see if anyone at BFL has the balls to respond to the situation. So far nothing, as I expected. And apparently your place in the order queue dictates how "priority" your ticket is, which if that is true is ludicrous.

I don't feel sorry for them, they did this to themselves. I do feel sorry in that I was stupid enough to send them one red cent however, but I can live with it being a single Jally order. Hate to be one of those that dropped $1000s on them...

It's all good, BFL has become my model for what not to do as a business in this industry. Shameful.

cashflow problems! They started R&D from scratch with coustomers preorder money. Failed! PCB, Chips, Casing... burning money every day...
Now they need fresh money to order parts...

You seem to be ignoring their past FPGA products and the cashflow from that.

ok started R&D from 20%  ;D

 That "gravy train" probably ran out last year and I would hazard to guess they are running on VC and ASIC pre-order infused fumes right now.

Can you stick to the facts instead if made up conjecture? You're not doing your own cause ( whatever that is) any favors by just making shit up.

 And Josh Zerlan is a paragon of accuracy and truth ?

 Respectfully, there is probably more accuracy in my conjectures that Josh's prior attempts at stating fact.

Guess you never heard the saying 2 wrongs don't make a right? If you think he's a liar, then lying yourself makes you what? Righteous?

TIL that conjecture == lying

If you missed it he was speculating, not lying. Let's stick to the facts.




Fact: Customers are still waiting. BFL has not delivered as promised. More lies, excuses, delays...blah blah blah.

According to the latest official BFL update more chips will be packaged in the week beginning 20 May, which means BFL should get them during the last week of May and probably start working through June 2012 orders late this month or in June.  The few hundred chips they have this week will only last for a handful of units.  The timeline seems to be timed to perfection (the chips work as expected with new revision boards, etc).  As we've seen in the past this is often not the case.

Could you provide a citation for the latest BFL report? I'd like to read what they have to say.
Thanks ;)

+1 me too.

Ironically, with a 17% bi-weekly hash rate increase going forward (what we've averaged for the last 3 months), he will earn (wait for it...) 23 BTC in 1.5 years. And then switch it off. [EDIT: it will be a few more than this as he turned it on a few days ago]

+10000 I'm also astonished to all these BFL haters. I think i'm leaving this parts of the Forum for good !

Not sure if this parts of the forum can survive without you. But OK, go back to BFL forums  ;)

No more 10 posts newbie jail anymore ?

Also Stockholm Syndrome is a helluva thing.

+1

Not sure what was expected making up any thread on BFL here. The last time you will find anything positive was about....12 months ago

Stockholm syndrome is being held captive. People could have bailed on their bfl order anytime. So, try a diff analogy.

Captive held by "profit seeking" is still being willfully captive.

I will ship you a money making machine that will change your income stream by 5 figures in one month. (The Promise/Premise)

But you will have to wait for it. (The Carrot)

If you complain, I will find out who you are and I will cancel your order, understand? (The Stick)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premise

 Stockholm syndrome  does not apply here becuase you  are a hostage by choice from the beginning.
Carrot and horse analogy works. proceed.

I don't think you understand the psychology behind Stockholm Syndrome. Kidnap victims never start out loving their captors.

 

You are missing the point, you were never kidnapped.  You got into the white van willingly. In fact you paid to get in the van and put hte hood on your  own head.

Hostage and Choice are mutually exclusive initially.

... From Wikipedia

Stockholm syndrome, or capture–bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them, and sometimes the feeling of love for the captor shows. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness.[1][2] The FBI's Hostage Barricade Database System shows that roughly 27% of victims show evidence of Stockholm syndrome.[3]

Stockholm syndrome can be seen as a form of traumatic bonding, which does not necessarily require a hostage scenario, but which describes “strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other.”[4] One commonly used hypothesis to explain the effect of Stockholm syndrome is based on Freudian theory. It suggests that the bonding is the individual’s response to trauma in becoming a victim. Identifying with the aggressor is one way that the ego defends itself. When a victim believes the same values as the aggressor, they no longer become a threat.[5]

Battered-person syndrome is an example of activating the capture–bonding psychological mechanism, as are military basic training and fraternity bonding by hazing.[6][7][8]

Stockholm syndrome is sometimes erroneously referred to as Helsinki syndrome.[9][10]

People who allow themselves to remain captive will remain captive until their desire for the carrot changes.

Someone who has held on since June 2012 has a strong incentive to keep their order. The profit motive is strong.

If I threaten them (implied or otherwise by making an example) I can keep you in your place. As long as you desire what I promise to give you, you will remain with me and waiting.

If you ever change your mind and air it, you will suffer the loss of the premise (whether real or imagined) to make a profit. Therefore, I can control you simply by bringing your desire to profit under control.

It is super basic but anyone can understand that much. People in abusive or dangerous relationships don't stop being rational. They simply have their desires mixed up or their understandings of the situation...severely distorted.

------------------------

But then again, as any shill will point out, this is all theory and has nothing at all to do with BFL as they are not keeping anyone hostage. No, they are not even involuntarily canceling orders without a persons permission to penalize them for speaking out.

Correct? (This is where you say "yes")

There is a lot of clear bias between the earliest buyers and the later ones that came in as this new information on their scammy personal pasts came out into the open. They are the first to defend BFL.

Could even be denial? If I had $1000s into them I might be too...

Received Jalapeno, but after 10 minutes of working under BFGMiner it had burned with a smoke.

I see black burned area around chip U15, capacitor C65, mini-USB connector.

Share the views with ass please.........11 month of waiting lol