Bitcoin Forum

Check this out: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=159808.0

You can buy the first order here!

I am in the same situation so I invested in this mining company: http://cognitivemining.com/

They already had asic purchase, the first actually. So now we can own part of that first purchase!

I would also add that how we handle situations like this could quite possibly determine the future of bitcoin commerce.  We can either blow this off as a single disruption that is harmless, or we can unite against scams like these and make an example of them.  As one person has already said, if behavior like this is tolerated, who would ever feel comfortable bidding on an auction in this forum again?  

Bitcoin is rife with scams.  Let's not continue to tolerate it with faulty logic like "oh it happens all the time.  Why are you surprised?"  How about people start getting pissed about it, shunning those that do it, and start trying to make this a better place so people can conduct commerce fairly.  It's not just for our benefit, but for those who may get involved in bitcoin in the future.  It benefits all of us to see people like this publicly shamed (and I'm not talking about the way Inaba did it... I mean the RIGHT way with a scammer tag or some objective method).

I was refreshing this thread every 30 seconds to not miss any of this juicy garbage and I didn't see that. I think you're smoking something.

Holy shit. There's actually enough information here to open an investigation on Inaba. The quote tags were edited, and the screenshot appears fake. I think QuestionAuthority might be right:

[6/19/2013 3:15:00 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: Hi josh.zerlan, I'd like to add you as a contact. Garrett Ian MacDonald
[6/19/2013 3:25:13 AM] Josh Zerlan: What can I help you with?
[6/19/2013 3:25:17 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: Thanks for adding me
[6/19/2013 3:25:21 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: free for a call?
[6/19/2013 3:25:30 AM] Josh Zerlan: No, it's too late at night for that.
[6/19/2013 3:25:54 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: I was wondering what your policy is on canceling orders, sir.
[6/19/2013 3:26:04 AM] Josh Zerlan: With regards to what?
[6/19/2013 3:28:17 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: Dude this is Garr. I have to shamefully apologize for calling your company out, and making you think I don't want to deal with you, because most of my orders are not for me and have been sold to other people already.
[6/19/2013 3:29:07 AM] Josh Zerlan: You know, that might have carried some weight before you used a sock puppet account to troll me, then used your own account to lie about it and AGAIN essentially call me a liar.
[6/19/2013 3:29:21 AM] Josh Zerlan: You and I both know Werner is your sock puppet account
[6/19/2013 3:29:28 AM] Josh Zerlan: Given the speed you did your editing, I suspect you posted from the same IP
[6/19/2013 3:29:52 AM] Josh Zerlan: So getting a mod to check the IPs on those two posts will probably yield up the proof required to call you out on that
[6/19/2013 3:30:04 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: I'm just saying, it will hurt other customers more than me if you terminate our relationship. The terms I've agreed to with them exempt me from you canceling my order without a formal request.
[6/19/2013 3:30:34 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: It will hurt me a lot as well, still :P
[6/19/2013 3:30:36 AM] Josh Zerlan: Right... so you think it's ok to abuse me and BFL at your liesure and I should just bend over and take it?  It doesn't work like that here.
[6/19/2013 3:31:10 AM] Josh Zerlan: You did make a formal request.  You explicitly stated that our business ethics etc... were unacceptable.
[6/19/2013 3:31:15 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: Well in my defense, can you argue against my accusations? This is not the outcome I intended.
[6/19/2013 3:32:00 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: Are you a believer in implied word, or actual word. Because I am actually asking you to not cancel my orders, please.
[6/19/2013 3:33:46 AM] Josh Zerlan: Yes, I can easily arguing against your accusations. I already did.  There are orders ahead of you in the queue that were in before Bitpay. Most notably some FPGA orders that were never delivered at the customer request and converted into ASIC orders.  There's not a lot of them, but there's some of them.
[6/19/2013 3:34:16 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: Okay, that does make sense
[6/19/2013 3:34:46 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: now that you tell me straight up and not through (what I suspect to be) a puppet.
[6/19/2013 3:34:58 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: ^sorry if I'm wrong about that
[6/19/2013 3:35:06 AM] Josh Zerlan: Unlike you, Garrett, I have but one account (or two if you cound BFL_Josh).
[6/19/2013 3:35:15 AM] Josh Zerlan: I'm not duplicious or dishonest like you appear to be at this point.
[6/19/2013 3:35:17 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: a smart person would use a VPN with a sock puppet account.
[6/19/2013 3:36:04 AM] Josh Zerlan: Yes, you could have been using a VPN with your puppet, but given the speed you switched it up, unless your VPN was on another computer, I doubt you had time to switch off your VPN and back on.
[6/19/2013 3:36:05 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: Honestly I just want you to be forthcoming with your business operations
[6/19/2013 3:36:18 AM] Josh Zerlan: Dude, your credibility is shot after the stunt with Werner.
[6/19/2013 3:36:28 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: I don't want to discuss that.
[6/19/2013 3:36:38 AM] Josh Zerlan: Are you honestly sitting there trying to lecture me on being forthcoming after that?
[6/19/2013 3:36:57 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: I'm not bothering arguing that.
[6/19/2013 3:37:21 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: Really I wish we weren't here having this discussion
[6/19/2013 3:38:12 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: You have to admit, that being an outsider of BFL, and seeing people be sent units with the explicit agreement that they would post picutres, that it looks shady.
[6/19/2013 3:38:25 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: I just want to get the truth.
[6/19/2013 3:38:59 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: And with your explaination for the FPGA orders, I believe I have it. At least part of it.
[6/19/2013 3:39:07 AM] Josh Zerlan: There's been several singles sent out, there's only one picture that I know of, and that's Allten.  We are shipping out in order.  I know it's hard to believe, but the majority of our orders don't come from Bitcointalk members.
[6/19/2013 3:39:21 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: It's totally believable
[6/19/2013 3:39:38 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: just something that most don't take into account as often as we should
[6/19/2013 3:39:42 AM] Josh Zerlan: Bitcointalk forum members are a signifigant faction, yes, but they are by no means a majority.
[6/19/2013 3:40:05 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: Yep that is analogous with cognitive shareholders
[6/19/2013 3:40:18 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: so I understand that.
[6/19/2013 3:40:29 AM] Josh Zerlan: So, if you want to clean the slate, fine.  You need to apologize publically for calling me and BFL liars, admit Werner is your sock puppet account and apologize for utilizing it to troll me.
[6/19/2013 3:40:44 AM] Josh Zerlan: Then we can just forget it happened and move on.
[6/19/2013 3:46:01 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: Okay, writing a post now...
[6/19/2013 4:02:56 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: Done. I genuinely appreciate your giving me the opportunity to keep my orders.
[6/19/2013 4:05:58 AM] Josh Zerlan: That is probably one of the most disingenuous apologies I have ever seen, I have to admit.
[6/19/2013 4:07:09 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: It wasn't intended to be anything more than you asked.
[6/19/2013 4:07:20 AM] Garrett Ian MacDonald: Again, sorry for making you and I both look like cunts.
[6/19/2013 4:07:22 AM] Josh Zerlan: Clearly

Would only take a few min to verify if Werner was Garret, the forums have logs, you can see post deletions, which would have been required to change the owner of post #93 at 1371628652 in the Inaba screenshot.

Yes, we can check the contents of post 2517632. However, the question now is whether we should. Is it ethical for us to do that, especially giving the evidence against Inaba? I honestly don't know.

Yes, we can check the contents of post 2517632. However, the question now is whether we should. Is it ethical for us to do that, especially giving the evidence against Inaba? I honestly don't know.

Yes, because that quote link was manually entered.  Try to "quote" via the quote button a post that has been deleted - SMF won't pull it up.  I originally had generic quote tags around it and had to go back and add who it was from, since it wouldn't make any sense otherwise within the context, AFTER Garr reposted the same text.  

Here's the original quote HTML:


And the original post link:


Now go test it for yourself, post a message, pull it up in a  browser, delete it and then try to quote it.  You'll get nothing and you'll have to do it manually.  As in the other thread, I'll even let Maged remote into my machine and examine the still open browser window.

Thinking this through, scams here (usually) need a victim to exist to be tagged. I don't really want to do anything about this until they come forward. Once they do come forward, if Garr255 would like to settle the issue with them, that would prevent the need for me to neg trust him.

Current top bids:
1@60 - nlovlyn
1@61 - starsoccer9

2@62

Less than four hours left!

Current leaders:

1@65 - Vezunchik
1@63 - starsoccer9

And in fact THIS is the Werner post with that timestamp (17:57:32):

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=236794.msg2517592#msg2517592

Sloppy work there Inaba!


Wait I think I heard my microwave bell... brb popcorn is ready!

I ran the screenshot from Inaba through fotoforensics.com
http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=920e738915e00c0dda24bc1fc373b24e59f1f704.238213

I leave as an exercise for the reader to interpret the results.  ;D

Error level analysis is useless for screenshots. If you're going to fake a screenshot, you use Inspect Element, not resaving the same image with Photoshop.

As in the other thread, I'll even let Maged remote into my machine and examine the still open browser window.

The mods do not need to remote control someone's computer or look at ELA of screenshots, theymos needs to just simply look for the deleted post.

Seriously, please investigate, there should be consequences for shill bidding or faking screenshots.

Bid shilling isn't a scam?  He's basically scammed a number of users out of BTC by bidding up prices on stuff.

You could even argue that he's scammed his Cognitive users by posting positive remarks about how awesome it and he is, since people assume it's a legitimate disinterested third party, not the same guy selling what he's selling.  That's almost by definition a scam.

The mods do not need to remote control someone's computer or look at ELA of screenshots, theymos needs to just simply look for the deleted post.

Seriously, please investigate, there should be consequences for shill bidding or faking screenshots.

I thought Garr255 was a trusted member, after all he holds 250 BTC of the forum money... I hope the Werner account was never used by him (best to check past posts' IP/IP ranges and headers of both accounts (assuming he forgot to use a VPN at least once) if deleted posts do not provide enough information).

As for the victims coming forward - have they been notified of this thread / do they browse all sections often enough to stumble on one of the threads where posts with accusations against Garr255 are located?

Hmm...

There is an option c here.

This might not be as black and white as people suspect.

But good thread for popped corn.

Hmm...

There is an option c here.

This might not be as black and white as people suspect.

But good thread for popped corn.

Option C would be that Inaba photoshopped the Werner post.  He then forced Garr255 under threat of canceling the order to admit that he is Werner, even though he (Garr255) is not.  Garr255 confesses under duress, not knowing that the Werner account makes him look like he's bid-shilling.   If option C actually happened, Inaba should quit BFL and work for the CIA.

Rampion already nailed this one as bullshit. Anyone with integrity would not bow to false blackmail just to "protect" some investors. In fact, it would allow him to give an excuse to investors that is out of his control.

I am obvisually involved so...

Have you contacted Maged or Theymos? Do you believe that bid shilling is a scam, and if that is what happened you would feel scammed?

Your involvement (in pursuing the potential scam) could help get the wheels turning in this.

I disagree.

No offense, but you also could easily be Gar255's sockpuppet. Just because you won an auction doesn't mean you weren't also just shill bidding in hopes someone else would win it, so your opinion does not trump ethics or common sense.

true, I am not quite sure how I could prove my self as not a sock puppet but i did pay gar255. I know you will claim that i could could of just sent the coins to my self being his sock puppet and all.


I have not contacted either of them. Personally Id prefer to be scammed 2 btc then to just have Garr255 disappear on me and be out 63btc.

Information

    Zip Code:83815
    Country:USA
    City:Hayden
    Telephone 1:1.(424).253.4278
    Telephone 2:1.(208).659.2349
    Email:garrett@cognitivemining.com

If you ever have any questions or concerns I will be available for contact and will usually respond the same day. I appreciate your investments and inquiries and will keep this company running in your best interest throughout its duration.

Personally Id prefer to be scammed 2 btc then to just have Garr255 disappear on me and be out 63btc.

I have to admit, I'm pretty confused as to why there's so much resistance to verifying if a deleted post contains a certain bit of content.  No one is asking for the post to be restored or the content to be posted.  There's no privacy violations being requested or anything other than for verification to be performed.

I'm pretty boggled, honestly.  I know what I saw, I know what's in my browser window, I've taken a screen shot of it, there is no doubt in my mind that Werner posted that text.  I had no idea Werner was Garrs sock until that point, nor did I have any clue there was so much more to the Werner account than it just being Garr trolling me when I posted the screenshot.  Up until that time of Garrs mistake, I had taken zero notice of Werner... I mean, I get trolled much better numerous times a day and I hadn't given it a second thought.

I regret, now, not posting the quote faster and plopping up the screenshot, however when it happened I was confused by the response and it took me about 30 seconds to figure out what happened as I re-read it several times trying to figure out why Werner was making that post until it hit me that Garr screwed up.  By the time I quoted it, screen shotted it and got it uploaded, Garr had already deleted Werner version.  It would have been much better if I had posted that quote and then Garr followed it with the same text.  But my slow reaction time should not be the deciding factor here... if the post contents of the post in question  can be verified, I can not see any reason what so ever to not verify it.  It doesn't have to be posted, revealed or anything else, other than "Yep, it's the same" or "Nope, Inaba is full of shit."

Is Garr255 somehow financially or otherwise tied to Maged or Theymos?  Is there a reason behind these stall tactics?  I'm not making any accusations in this space, I am just curious if that may be a source of resistance to a seemingly reasonable request.

Whether that be Inaba being caught for creating false screenshots or Garr using a sock account to scam people.

I have to admit, I'm pretty confused as to why there's so much resistance to verifying if a deleted post contains a certain bit of content.  No one is asking for the post to be restored or the content to be posted.  There's no privacy violations being requested or anything other than for verification to be performed.

I'm pretty boggled, honestly.  I know what I saw, I know what's in my browser window, I've taken a screen shot of it, there is no doubt in my mind that Werner posted that text.  I had no idea Werner was Garrs sock until that point, nor did I have any clue there was so much more to the Werner account than it just being Garr trolling me when I posted the screenshot.  Up until that time of Garrs mistake, I had taken zero notice of Werner... I mean, I get trolled much better numerous times a day and I hadn't given it a second thought.

I regret, now, not posting the quote faster and plopping up the screenshot, however when it happened I was confused by the response and it took me about 30 seconds to figure out what happened as I re-read it several times trying to figure out why Werner was making that post until it hit me that Garr screwed up.  By the time I quoted it, screen shotted it and got it uploaded, Garr had already deleted Werner version.  It would have been much better if I had posted that quote and then Garr followed it with the same text.  But my slow reaction time should not be the deciding factor here... if the post contents of the post in question  can be verified, I can not see any reason what so ever to not verify it.  It doesn't have to be posted, revealed or anything else, other than "Yep, it's the same" or "Nope, Inaba is full of shit."

Is Garr255 somehow financially or otherwise tied to Maged or Theymos?  Is there a reason behind these stall tactics?  I'm not making any accusations in this space, I am just curious if that may be a source of resistance to a seemingly reasonable request.

Is Garr255 somehow financially or otherwise tied to Maged or Theymos?  Is there a reason behind these stall tactics?  I'm not making any accusations in this space, I am just curious if that may be a source of resistance to a seemingly reasonable request.

I can only see two reasons why they'd not want to verify whether the post was made by werner:

1.  They believe bidding up your own auctions with sock-puppets is fine - or at least something they shouldn't try to deter (i.e. something so trivial that they don't want to be involved).
2.  They're friendly with Garr AND believe it was his sock-puppet (if they're friends and DON'T think it's his sock-puppet then they'd have already checked).

A possible addendum to item 2. would be simply a shareholder of COGNITIVE, wanting time to sell (https://btct.co/security/COGNITIVE)

When you're right, you're right.

Inaba is pretty clearly telling the truth here I believe.

How could Garr be so stupid. Like he really needs some low post count random account to add another negative post. Mind blowingly retarded move by him.

I cant prove it or have access to the info needed to be able to prove it. However there is a reasonable answer. If theymos looked into it i think he could confirm.

If this does get looked into you guys might be shocked by the findings and maybe everyone here has been honest.

Good point, and that's fine.  Garr255 is welcome to say what he wants about Werner without any interference from me, beyond what I post here.  As a point of fact, I never said he couldn't.  I simply wanted him to apologize for lying and using a sock puppet, which he did in the most disingenuous way possible and was ultimately meaningless anyway.  However, unlike Garr, I'm actually honest and will not fire him as a customer, since he did what I requested in letter if not spirit.

I'm curious as to what he'll say as well.  Unless Theymos decides to cover it up, and I don't believe Theymos is that type of person, anything Garr255 says other than admitting it, coming clean and trying to move past it is just going to compound the problem dramatically.

Nice catch, Josh! And from your chat logs its doesn't read to me that blackmail was was being used. Seemed like a fair exchange.

Well he only has four options:

1.  Stop posting about it all - leaving everyone sure he's guilty.
2.  Deny it and ask Theymos to confirm the post never existed (without the request any denial would look weak).
3.  Admit it and apologise etc.
4.  Claim he's still scared you might cancel the order so won't post about it.  Due to your earlier post that would now be unbelievable - as if he believed him posting might make you break your word then he has no reason to believe you won't break it anyway on some other pretext.

2 or 3 are the only sensible ones (depending on whether he did it or not).  If I were to bet on it I'd bet on a period of 1. followed by 3.

Asking Theymos to confirm before you'd made your earlier post was bad tactically.  In poker, on the river, if you're SURE someone's bluffing/has a worse hand then you DON'T call.  You always raise.  If you're telling the truth then you hold the nuts - and a raise was in order.

Here are the videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52uZ4ysvO1w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM073UO3AZI

I was just about to write another post stating that I will not be using an escrow. This is because revenue from this sale will immediately be put into Cognitive's growth fund, which we might need to utilize before BFL ships. Additionally, there should be no trust issues, because I am a fairly trusted person here, managing well over $100k of other peoples' assets, and even a few hundred btc of the forum's money. Cognitive, the company I manage, currently has a market cap of over BTC2000 which I'm quite proud of :)

1. Yes, possible (possible !) Garr255 can't be trusted. I even had small dispute with him about "Selling ** The VERY FIRST BFL ASIC Order **" where I decided that this was just an April joke (I still think so). But he answered me quickly after "trust -1", showed me BFL units (or not? Or it was another guy on video?). He offered me Skype demonstration and so.
So I decided that its illogical to continue - it was looking like I was trying to get money from him. I value my reputation (is it important?  :D). So I removed that record.
2. Well people, You are similar to group of old men. They do nothing, and only repeat the senseless things. "Bla-bla-bla scamer. Bla-bla-bla not a scamer. Bla-bla-bla  ethical reasons. Bla-bla-bla future of bitcoins."
If there is some suspicion - just review forum logs (those who can - admins, moderators. Or I can't understand why do they need on this forum.) Who can't just list some facts in short form and wait.
3. And where is Garr255? Just vanished? Is there any login actions for his account for last days? starsoccer9 is an unreal person too? (What about me - my form of speaking is greater than any digital signature  ;D ;D ;D)

Uhm I am a real person. Yea this will really suck if he runs off

Inaba has been following this and pretty reasonable with the outcome to this point.  It may well be worth asking if some kind of hold could be placed on Garr/Werner's order for your single until this matter is resolved and if he does disappear, perhaps some other arrangement could be met so you get what you were scammed into overpaying for.

I may be out of the loop here but is garr255 jeff garzik?

I may be out of the loop here but is garr255 jeff garzik?

I still have the thread open in my browser as well, looking at it right now as a matter of fact.  In fact, lets post Garr's Skype log to me:

I may be out of the loop here but is garr255 jeff garzik?

Yea, that's out of the loop alright. And no.

Yea, that's out of the loop alright. And no, Garzik is not a teenager.

And here are Garr's buds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cVvuoG303s Matt being the closest.

Inaba has been following this and pretty reasonable with the outcome to this point.  It may well be worth asking if some kind of hold could be placed on Garr/Werner's order for your single until this matter is resolved and if he does disappear, perhaps some other arrangement could be met so you get what you were scammed into overpaying for.

I may be out of the loop here but is garr255 jeff garzik?

Unfortunately, while that would seem like a nice thing to do, it seems to me it would set a precedent that puts BFL in the middle of a shitstorm between eBay pre-order scammers and their irate customers.... and opens the door for fake customers of fictional scammers to join the fray also... messy.

Goodness gracious there is alot of scandalous ass shit going on around here lately

Bruno, we've been through this with Atlas. What Garr255 did was wrong, but unless I'm not mistaken, he's still a minor in high school.

In poker, on the river, if you're SURE someone's bluffing/has a worse hand then you DON'T call.  You always raise.  If you're telling the truth then you hold the nuts - and a raise was in order.

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/garrett-macdonald/4a/234/61


Graduated and over 18, and trusted by theymos as an adult (17 at the time) in currently holding $25K+ USD of this forums money.

I stand corrected, sharpen your pitchfork.

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/garrett-macdonald/4a/234/61


Graduated and over 18, and trusted by theymos as an adult (17 at the time) in currently holding $25K+ USD of this forums money.

To tell you truth, I couldn't care leas about him and have no axe to grind, but I continue to be insulted by the double standard and corruption on these forums. There is not another person on these forums who gets as much flack as I do for the mistakes I've made, and Theymos (as he has twice) would waste no time theowing a scammer tag down (what was it, 20 second record last time I pissed him off?), yet it's been a whole day now and not a peep from dear leader. Forgive me for allowing myself to be emotional about something on the internet, but passion is what drives me, and once I learn that my role models, teachers, or offenders are worse than me, it is a bit of a wake up call to rise up and crush these false prophets.

There is no way I'm not going to start another forum project now, and not because I'm delusional or think I'll be particularly perfect and flawless, but because I know myself and what I would do if I were Theymos, and it wouldn't have been to ignore criticisms and stay in power all this time despite corruption, insider trading, theft and broken promises to the community. The disgust has reached a boiling point. I don't dare test the cultists by calling for anyone to "GTFO", but rather I should strive to build something where even I in all my flawed nature cannot possibly fuck it up this badly.

I personally have never had a problem with this forum. There have been scammers and such but thats life. Tho I do agree with Matt that something should be done or said. No mods posting is just pissing more people off. This could of been solved in less then an hour. Simply saying yes its true or no its false. Either way it would be done and solved instead you have users arguing about it and loosing trust in this forum.

I've heard about the $25k he's holding but only through some posts here now - are there any other older forum posts that document this? Just curious about it, really.

I have my own feelings and beliefs to base my actions on, but my reasoning for starting a new forum will be to provide a place where this kind of thing simply cannot happen. It will be challenging, but this pseudo-decentralizing community needs to start realizing just how much influence people have on everything from the price of their bitcoins to the opinions they hold. It's time for a platform that doesn't need Theymos, or accusations against Garr, or advertising money from bfl, and eventually won't need me either.

I deserve it, this community deserves it, the internet deserves it.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=24589
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141503.0;all
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141503.msg1642658#msg1642658

@Matthew

It's been less than 24h, maybe he is looking into it or busy with something else, I don't think people will forget it until it is resolved so a bit more waiting shouldn't hurt.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=24589
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141503.0;all
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141503.msg1642658#msg1642658

No offense to BFL or you but people have been complaining about BFL advertising on the forum. Nothing was solved as far as I know.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=24589
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141503.0;all
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141503.msg1642658#msg1642658

@Matthew

It's been less than 24h, maybe he is looking into it or busy with something else, I don't think people will forget it until it is resolved so a bit more waiting shouldn't hurt.

I feel like it deserves it's own song.

Maybe we should contact Zhou Tonged?

I love how talented they are at taking existing songs and changing the lyrics, but I meant doing what I do, which is writing songs from scratch.

</internet burn>

No reason only one of you has to make a song on the topic.

Yes, by all means, open an investigation.  Lets see the IP logs of the posts and the post history.  SMF does have soft delete, right?  I use it on vBulletin all the time, any posts that are deleted are removed from public view, but I can view and recover them when I need to.

I still have the thread open in my browser as well, looking at it right now as a matter of fact.  In fact, lets post Garr's Skype log to me:

Why does Maged even post here with speculation at all, when all Theymos needs to do is check the post edit history? Hell, it's probably already been broadcast across RSS when he made the first post. I'm dumbfounded as to personal opinion, speculation and accusations need to enter something so seemingly cut and dry. Is it because Garr255 is a friend of Maged and he's trying to protect him? It certainly can't be that Maged thinks BFL and Inaba are dishonest, as he wouldn't have accepted payment from funds paid by BFL to false advertise here. Maybe it's all fake resistance to make it appear that the mods are objective of Inaba and not just on his payroll now.

Check the logs, Theymos, and we don't want to hear you say "oh well when matthew was misleading it was serious, but when Garr did it it was obviously a prank". /thread

Second off, protecting the scammer is how we always start off an investigation.

As for "all Theymos needs to do is check the post edit history", user-deleted posts are considered private information (or if not, they should be)

But again, for any of that to happen, we need someone to step up and say that they believe that they were scammed by Werner's shill bids.

How many seconds after my pirate bet ended did I get a scammer tag, and who contacted me to confirm things first? What "investigation" was there? Theymos doesn't have a very good record of being anything but reactionary. You on the other hand, I agree do a good job investigating in most cases.

Public information is considered private?

I believe I was scammed by Werner's shill bids as I was planning on bidding but didn't because Werner outbid my maximum bid. He robbed me of potential profit and he should pay me for that. Now that someone has come forward, it appears you need to step up your investigation to "get off the couch" mode.

Why would we be waiting on you to tell Theymos anything, is he too busy counting the 6000 BTC donated to him to do his job? (Yes, I appear to be trolling but I'm actually dead serious).

Doesn't matter. That case was extremely clear, especially because the contract even said that you would take a scammer tag if you didn't pay.

That's the question, isn't it. A situation like this really hasn't ever come up, so until we are convinced otherwise, it's best to take the most conservative position. In this case, that would be considering the information to be private. I would like to hear arguments for and against this position.

That would only be possible if he had won one of the auctions. However, since he didn't, that means that you would have been outbid regardless. Therefore, only the winners of the auctions can claim to have been scammed.

Theymos is very busy and can't really take the time right now to handle issues that don't already have a clear consensus. He's free to respond, of course, but I won't push him to.

 If you have ever sold on eBay.  You will find until something like this happens to you.  You really haven't had the full experience.  Countless times I've had someone bid on an auction and get pissed because they wher outbid. They bid and bid until the legitimate buyer stops.  Once this happens the price is so inflated they can't pay.  They will throw a sock puppet into the mix to cover some ass.   Ebays bid history will usually show a puppet wthin moments and or the time it would take to make a fake ass account.

Perhaps an auction system is in order.  Or hell just do away with auctions period.  Let bitmit handle it. I mean this is funny shit and all but Jesus Christ... it isn't worth the stroke some of you are in the throws of.

I'm nit meaning to be insulting here or childish.

Relax guys.  :-\ Theymos will respond here soon enough after checking stuff up, according to what I've heard from him some time ago.

As for "all Theymos needs to do is check the post edit history", user-deleted posts are considered private information (or if not, they should be), and private information can only be released when a scammer has been confirmed. In general, for someone to scam, there needs to be a victim. When there is a victim, a settlement can be made without ever declaring someone a scammer. That's why I'm not asking Theymos for the information yet. Also, there is enough evidence in the post history of Werner to not even need this information until a judgement is made. But again, for any of that to happen, we need someone to step up and say that they believe that they were scammed by Werner's shill bids.

That's wonderful news, John. Thank you for giving us an update!

PMs are considered private information - and rightly so.  Yet you routinely ask people to send copies of PMs that an alleged scammer wrote so that they can be confirmed as existing.

If you'll confirm that a PM (which was NEVER intended to be public) is legitimate then what pathetic excuse is there for not confirming that a post made in public is genuine?  Your argument (giving it more credit than it deserves by even using that term) falls down because you are NOT being asked to release new information - just to confirm whether information that already exists in the public domain is genuine.

And we're back to the ludicrous position of a scam only being a scam if a victim comes forward.  As I've said before on this inane concept - there'd be no convicted murderers if that policy were applied more widely.

To be guilty of being a scammer doesn't require success on every occasion - incompetent scammers are also scammers, just not very good at it.  Provided there's an intended or potential victim then the perpetrator IS a scammer.  Even if the tag is only for successful scammers (so ones so bad noone will fall for it will never get a tag) then why does the victim need to complain?  The victims here have been identified (or at least some of them : we have no idea how many more sockies were out there).

I also disagree with the concept that a scammer who pays back ceases to be a scammer.  But at least on that point there's some general consistency - i.e. it doesn't only apply to people you're on good terms with.

You most likely deserve the title untrustworthy.

That is a bitch move.

So which is it? Am I untrustworthy or a bitch? Being a bitch doesn't make someone untrustworthy. What I can't take is the continued hypocrisy by mouthpieces who ignore common sense in place of their own agendas. If repeating that for all to hear makes me a bitch, bring on the dog food.

I know from personal experience your a bitch because instead of responding to my valid points a few days ago, you simply deleted my posts, then I reposted them and you deleted them again.  Then I had to post an entire new thread just to make my views known.  In that thread, others confirmed you were doing the same to them. 

But from what I can tell you got the untrustworthy tag by being a bitch to others.  Pulled some other bitch move by backing out of a bet that you publicly made?

This community should be more about banding together, not trying to get one over and bitching about everyone else.

I know from personal experience your a bitch because instead of responding to my valid points a few days ago, you simply deleted my posts, then I reposted them and you deleted them again.  Then I had to post an entire new thread just to make my views known.  In that thread, others confirmed you were doing the same to them. 

But from what I can tell you got the untrustworthy tag by being a bitch to others.  Pulled some other bitch move by backing out of a bet that you publicly made?

But serious shit here.  You are the supreme allied commandrr of fuckin idiot

Blah blah blah blah. .... The only bitch I see is the one gargleing pedophile cum while he slams wordz onto the screen with his man boobs he earned playing hours of WoW. See I can come up with some random ass bullshit that I'm sure to shit is going to piss you off.  Fact of the matter is your beating a dead horse.  I'd be pretty fuckin pissed if my posts wher deleted.  But serious shit here.  Why keep useing the bunked bet as ammo?  God damn I'm sure you have fuckin bet money you didn't pay.

Nobody lost but nobody gained so matt is a scammer who earned his tag.  You sir are the supreme allied commandrr of fuckin idiot

Well at this point I just want my unit. The rest i will worry about then. Since Josh is here and is semi involved if he would be willing to redirect the one unit I bought from gar255 to me id have no problem going to theymos and maged about this, but at this point id much rather have a unit and loose 2 coins then have no unit and loose 63coins

Hi all,

First, I apologize for taking too long to attempt to resolve this situation. I've been extremely frustrated with myself all day. I have been regretting what I have done since the moment I did it.

I hereby confess to bidding up my own auctions using the "Werner" forum handle. This is despicable, I know. I did this out of pure greed. Scamming anyone was not the priority, getting a few extra measly bitcoins for Cognitive's auction was my goal. I have always acted in the best interest of Cognitive, because I know, believe, and practice my fiduciary duty which comes as a result of handling others' assets. I want everyone to know that I will continue doing my best to run the company, the same as I always have. My track record on the forum has been flawless before this incident, and that's what hurts me most. I'm disgusted with myself when people are questioning whether they can trust me now.

Although some may view this as a petty offence (as I did previously), I do not any longer. As an attempt to at least partially make up for my wrongdoing, I am offering each of the participants in the auction, starsoccer9 and Vezunchik, BTC5 of my own personal funds, which more than makes up for the financial loss due false bids in the auction. I realize that what I have done is unacceptable, and I do deeply regret it.

Being an optimist, I can't help but try to take something positive away from a given situation. I believe that because of this incident I will make an effort to be that much better of a person. Everyone who I have interacted with aside from these auction participants, and Josh Zerlan (Inaba), would agree with me when I tell you: I strive to be a person of high moral conduct.

I apologize to everyone for letting greed get in my way. I know trust takes ages to build, and a few posts to destroy. I hope that everyone will acknowledge my past, and see that I have never acted in an externally malicious way, and have always been transparent, friendly, and courteous in all of my dealings with fellow forum members. Know that I am a man of my word: when I say I will do something, I do it. I regret bidding up the auction greatly. Please know that I have never scammed anyone nor have I stolen anything. I have done tons (probably well over 100) transactions of physical items with users of this forum and not one has gone sour. In most of them the other party was the one who had to trust me.

Again, I sincerely regret what I have done and I apologize for doing it. The small sum of bitcoins I gained from this (until I pay the auction bidders back) was certainly not worth the tarnished reputation. Never again will I allow myself to do something so crooked.

Quick aside: How was Garr planning on hosting miners for others when he's planning on attending college this fall? If he lives on campus, he'll be breaking code regulations by operating miners that won't have UL tags.

You did the right thing.  I respect that. 

Hi all,

First, I apologize for taking too long to attempt to resolve this situation. I've been extremely frustrated with myself all day. I have been regretting what I have done since the moment I did it.

I hereby confess to bidding up my own auctions using the "Werner" forum handle. This is despicable, I know. I did this out of pure greed. Scamming anyone was not the priority, getting a few extra measly bitcoins for Cognitive's auction was my goal. I have always acted in the best interest of Cognitive, because I know, believe, and practice my fiduciary duty which comes as a result of handling others' assets. I want everyone to know that I will continue doing my best to run the company, the same as I always have. My track record on the forum has been flawless before this incident, and that's what hurts me most. I'm disgusted with myself when people are questioning whether they can trust me now.

Although some may view this as a petty offence (as I did previously), I do not any longer. As an attempt to at least partially make up for my wrongdoing, I am offering each of the participants in the auction, starsoccer9 and Vezunchik, BTC5 of my own personal funds, which more than makes up for the financial loss due false bids in the auction. I realize that what I have done is unacceptable, and I do deeply regret it.

Being an optimist, I can't help but try to take something positive away from a given situation. I believe that because of this incident I will make an effort to be that much better of a person. Everyone who I have interacted with aside from these auction participants, and Josh Zerlan (Inaba), would agree with me when I tell you: I strive to be a person of high moral conduct.

I apologize to everyone for letting greed get in my way. I know trust takes ages to build, and a few posts to destroy. I hope that everyone will acknowledge my past, and see that I have never acted in an externally malicious way, and have always been transparent, friendly, and courteous in all of my dealings with fellow forum members. Know that I am a man of my word: when I say I will do something, I do it. I regret bidding up the auction greatly. Please know that I have never scammed anyone nor have I stolen anything. I have done tons (probably well over 100) transactions of physical items with users of this forum and not one has gone sour. In most of them the other party was the one who had to trust me.

Again, I sincerely regret what I have done and I apologize for doing it. The small sum of bitcoins I gained from this (until I pay the auction bidders back) was certainly not worth the tarnished reputation. Never again will I allow myself to do something so crooked.

Real question is, why is Garr planning on attending college this fall anyway? After this thread is done, any employer doing a background check on Garrett Ian McDonald is going to come across this site and know that the little shit is untrustworthy. Unless North Idaho is a farmer's college, I'd say use that tuition money to make everyone on here hole and spend the rest on a good, solid name change. May I suggest Ian Garrett McLovin?

It takes a big man to admit and apologize. Good on you Garrett.

So if matthew pays his bet he wouldn't deserve to get his tag at least "reviewed"?  Or do tags stick for now until the end of time?  If you get someone doing something shady to come clean, make the people whole, isn't that a good example to set?  If there is nothing to gain by coming clean and fixing the problem, then why even bother.  He might as well just go big and go out with a bang.

LOL Rampion you're a bit late with that post, read the thread!

Many people trust me with more money than most people my age can fathom. That's not in the least of my concerns. It truly saddens me that you think me bidding up those auctions deserves a lifetime of flipping burgers.

Hi all,

First, I apologize for taking too long to attempt to resolve this situation. I've been extremely frustrated with myself all day. I have been regretting what I have done since the moment I did it.

I hereby confess to bidding up my own auctions using the "Werner" forum handle. This is despicable, I know. I did this out of pure greed. Scamming anyone was not the priority, getting a few extra measly bitcoins for Cognitive's auction was my goal. I have always acted in the best interest of Cognitive, because I know, believe, and practice my fiduciary duty which comes as a result of handling others' assets. I want everyone to know that I will continue doing my best to run the company, the same as I always have. My track record on the forum has been flawless before this incident, and that's what hurts me most. I'm disgusted with myself when people are questioning whether they can trust me now.

Although some may view this as a petty offence (as I did previously), I do not any longer. As an attempt to at least partially make up for my wrongdoing, I am offering each of the participants in the auction, starsoccer9 and Vezunchik, BTC5 of my own personal funds, which more than makes up for the financial loss due false bids in the auction. I realize that what I have done is unacceptable, and I do deeply regret it.

Being an optimist, I can't help but try to take something positive away from a given situation. I believe that because of this incident I will make an effort to be that much better of a person. Everyone who I have interacted with aside from these auction participants, and Josh Zerlan (Inaba), would agree with me when I tell you: I strive to be a person of high moral conduct.

I apologize to everyone for letting greed get in my way. I know trust takes ages to build, and a few posts to destroy. I hope that everyone will acknowledge my past, and see that I have never acted in an externally malicious way, and have always been transparent, friendly, and courteous in all of my dealings with fellow forum members. Know that I am a man of my word: when I say I will do something, I do it. I regret bidding up the auction greatly. Please know that I have never scammed anyone nor have I stolen anything. I have done tons (probably well over 100) transactions of physical items with users of this forum and not one has gone sour. In most of them the other party was the one who had to trust me.

Again, I sincerely regret what I have done and I apologize for doing it. The small sum of bitcoins I gained from this (until I pay the auction bidders back) was certainly not worth the tarnished reputation. Never again will I allow myself to do something so crooked.

So your logic is: you get caught stealing, you give back the money, no harm done and thus no punishment.

That's a joke. If Werner was his sock puppet account, applying a scammer tag on Garr is the only way to protect users in future auctions created by Garr, or in any business transaction with him. If he gives back the money to starsoccer9 and that's it, what stops him to create more sockpuppets and continue to bid shill more auctions? If no tag is applied, he will still be seen by all users as the trustworthy member that holds money for the forum, etc. In fact, giving the type of character he is depicting of himself, one ready to publicly humiliate himself and give up basic principles to get his miners, while subtly implying he is being forced and blackmailed when the Skype logs contradict this, I would fear that in case  he goes unpunished because of paying back, he would find a way to scam more so he can make up for his" loss".

In any case, I think Garr created a big problem for himself. He has a company (cognitive) that will probably be shaken by the outcome of this.

If Werner was indeed his sockpuppet, I guess Garr will end up learning a very real and important lesson: you cannot be" a little bit" scammer, you are either a scammer or you are not, full stop.  And shill bidding is being a scammer.

In these forums we conduct quite a lot of business transactions. There is a thriving economy. And mods have limited power, because a scammer could create many sockpuppets and connect through proxies or Tor and that is difficult to catch. Thus, we all have to take our own decisions about who we are going to trust, and if that trust is broken by someone everybody needs to see it straight away.

No,

My logic is, reward those who are honest and punish those who are not.  The difference between a scammer and someone who makes a mistake is the scammer when confronted by the situation, runs, leaving the victim holding the bag.  The person who makes the mistake lives up to it and fixes it.  I only hope that person really learned the lesson that earning honest money is always the best policy.  The important thing is that people who were wronged are righted.  If that means Garr needs to take a credibility hit as well, thats up to the mods.  I don't set policy around here.  If not a tag, maybe at least something like a credit report. The incident is recorded and then so is the resolution of the incident. people would know that it happened but also that you fixed it.  Then they can make their own judgement.

My logic is, reward those who are honest and punish those who are not.  The difference between a scammer and someone who makes a mistake is the person making a mistake got caught.

i support this stance as well. Garr has shown that other than these few instances of shill bidding to be a competent addition to the forum and a pretty honest individual. 9/10 people would have lied there ass off. I respect him for admitting it and promising to make it right. I'm sure his two victtims in the shill bid will respect him for making it right and apologizing as well.

Fixed it for you. Do you think Garr would have come forward if Inaba (of all people) hadn't called him out?

Fixed it for you. Do you think Garr would have come forward if Inaba (of all people) hadn't called him out?

Many people trust me with more money than most people my age can fathom. That's not in the least of my concerns. It truly saddens me that you think me bidding up those auctions deserves a lifetime of flipping burgers.

And to respond to Phinnaeus (Who I respect a good deal BTW): I will be leasing a portion of a facility staffed by DC techs who will be able to manage the physical aspect of the operation. I will be able to do everything I need to remotely.

Hi all,

First, I apologize for taking too long to attempt to resolve this situation. I've been extremely frustrated with myself all day. I have been regretting what I have done since the moment I did it.

I hereby confess to bidding up my own auctions using the "Werner" forum handle. This is despicable, I know. I did this out of pure greed. Scamming anyone was not the priority, getting a few extra measly bitcoins for Cognitive's auction was my goal. I have always acted in the best interest of Cognitive, because I know, believe, and practice my fiduciary duty which comes as a result of handling others' assets. I want everyone to know that I will continue doing my best to run the company, the same as I always have. My track record on the forum has been flawless before this incident, and that's what hurts me most. I'm disgusted with myself when people are questioning whether they can trust me now.

Although some may view this as a petty offence (as I did previously), I do not any longer. As an attempt to at least partially make up for my wrongdoing, I am offering each of the participants in the auction, starsoccer9 and Vezunchik, BTC5 of my own personal funds, which more than makes up for the financial loss due false bids in the auction. I realize that what I have done is unacceptable, and I do deeply regret it.

Being an optimist, I can't help but try to take something positive away from a given situation. I believe that because of this incident I will make an effort to be that much better of a person. Everyone who I have interacted with aside from these auction participants, and Josh Zerlan (Inaba), would agree with me when I tell you: I strive to be a person of high moral conduct.

I apologize to everyone for letting greed get in my way. I know trust takes ages to build, and a few posts to destroy. I hope that everyone will acknowledge my past, and see that I have never acted in an externally malicious way, and have always been transparent, friendly, and courteous in all of my dealings with fellow forum members. Know that I am a man of my word: when I say I will do something, I do it. I regret bidding up the auction greatly. Please know that I have never scammed anyone nor have I stolen anything. I have done tons (probably well over 100) transactions of physical items with users of this forum and not one has gone sour. In most of them the other party was the one who had to trust me.

Again, I sincerely regret what I have done and I apologize for doing it. The small sum of bitcoins I gained from this (until I pay the auction bidders back) was certainly not worth the tarnished reputation. Never again will I allow myself to do something so crooked.

Quite honestly, it is quite impressive what you've been able to do for your age - but that's a double sided sword. You'be built up a pretty solid operation, but it's also shocking that someone your age would have already developed the self-serving business practices that you've shown. It's not just about bidding up those auctions. You've displayed a hypocritical attitude the whole time you were dealing with BFL, and you've outright lied and misled this entire forum by denying your actions and insinuating that Josh had your hands tied. The coverup is much worse than the actual offense (from my POV, but it's not my coins that you scammed). You came out and admitted your mistakes (congratulations) but you've had plenty of opportunities so far to do so (how about during your first "appology"?). Would anyone here hire you to flip burgers if that meant you would even have a line of sight to the cash register? "I only emptied the tip jar to supplement the dividends I need to pay to Cognitive!!!"

On the bright side, you've probably impressed BFL quite a bit - maybe you could hit them up for a summer internship?

Fixed it for you. Do you think Garr would have come forward if Inaba (of all people) hadn't called him out?

@Garr

There is nothing wrong with greed but there is a hell of a lot of wrong in being dishonest.

No, I don't.   And I'm not suggesting we let people get away with things with no repercussions.  I support a permanent record system would be a sufficient deterrent to this type of behavior.  However, making someone walk the plank for any infraction with no possibility for redemption even after admitting your mistake and offering to make it right sets a bad precedent and isn't representative of what I feel the community should be about.  

Now, this really pisses me off, Garr. How the hell am I suppose to continue when you're being kind to me?

Depending on your course of study in college, you may not have to work for a traditional employer, probably working for yourself.

Sadly for you, there's still others still sticking it up you butt over this unfortunate episode. I'll only add fuel to the fire if I see a bonfire.

BTW, this is all Josh's fault  ::), but you're in no position to concur. No need for Josh, either, to weigh in on this comment. He did do the right thing.

As far as for a scammer tag, I feel that there is no way you should get one. Reason being is that it's been stipulated that that aspect has been abolished. In fact, it was mainly that reason that I kinda reneged on my $200 USD donation to Josh/BFL, having no fear of getting tagged. I have since re-reversed that decision and will be honoring it, but it'll be on my terms. But I digress.

Later, bud.

PS: I came damn near to tearing your apology to pieces, but now can't, you fuckin' lucky bastard.  ;)

coinsquirrel: I have built up relationships with a good number of people outside this forum, yes in real life, that still trust me just as much after having read this, and have vocally said so.

I'm really disappointed that you see me so lowly, because that's not who I am. Josh did force that apology, and I've been scared shitless for the past two days that either he was going to cancel my orders or I was going to lose my respect here, so that is why I tried to delay this inevitable outcome. Again, I apologize for what I've done and I know it was wrong. Good people make mistakes, I believe I am proof of that.

Wow, I never thought this forum of all other would have such attitude towards auction shilling.

Please explain to me - why the hell not? If I want to buy something, I know the price I'm willing to pay and that's it. If it goes up beyond that for a tiniest bit, in fair or fixed way - I will never buy it.

I admit, I'm new too this marketplace/economics atmosphere, but this seems logical enough for me.

Wow, I never thought this forum of all other would have such attitude towards auction shilling.

Please explain to me - why the hell not? If I want to buy something, I know the price I'm willing to pay and that's it. If it goes up beyond that for a tiniest bit, in fair or fixed way - I will never buy it.

I admit, I'm new too this marketplace/economics atmosphere, but this seems logical enough for me.

Why do an auction if your not going to let the best bid win? if your not happy with the price then next time just set an honest price you would like to get and stick to it.

The whole premise is that it didn't go above anyone's maximum. Let's pretend that StarSoccer was willing to bid BTC65. He was winning at BTC61. Garr comes along when there were no other bidders and bids BTC62, forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63 (a difference of BTC2, had Garr not interfered).

I concur 100%. Honesty is something that I, and most people (I would hope) value over everything else. You have no idea how disappointed I am in myself for proving that I can be dishonest.

I am laughing hysterically... This obscene adult is being shown up by a seventeen year old who runs his business flawlessly!!!

The whole premise is that it didn't go above anyone's maximum. Let's pretend that StarSoccer was willing to bid BTC65. He was winning at BTC61. Garr comes along when there were no other bidders and bids BTC62, forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63 (a difference of BTC2, had Garr not interfered).

Rampion: I'm saddened that you don't think I'm worthy of participating in the community because of one blatantly stupid mistake. I've never done anything else wrong and do not plan to ever again.

forcing StarSoccer to bid BTC63

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Would you find it acceptable for yourself to bid up forum ad slots with socks?

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it

Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

If Theymos used an alt to bid up the auction for ads, and then won and paid for them, I do not see how this is a scam.

Having more than one account is fine under the current rules of the forum.

Theymos was selling the ads for the forum, Garr was selling for Cognitive. Both socks of theymos and Garr could keep and use the products.

I don't even see how you guys think this is scamming.

What gets me pissed off is the fact Garr lied about it the account not being his. If you guys were trying to say he needs a tag like Matthew, than maybe, but scam? No way.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it

Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Then these quotes should be stickied at the top of the auction page.  Better yet:

Bid here only to a maximum of what you are willing to spend.  Auctioneers may opt to artificially inflate the price using alternate accounts if necessary.  No one is putting a gun to your head to outbid said alternate accounts.  Shilling/sock-puppeting is condoned and expected behavior.  Bid accordingly.

I would request the above, if true, be stickied at the top of the auction page.

Would you find it acceptable for yourself to bid up forum ad slots with socks?

Notice that I called it a bit shady. I wouldn't do it, and my trust in people will be reduced if I see them doing it. But it's not the end of the world.

It's not ethical to do this sort of thing because the participants in the auction expect you not to do it. By secretly acting contrary to their expectations, you're betraying their trust. But while it should happen very rarely, sometimes you get into situations like this accidentally or due to insufficient ethical consideration. It's something I can forgive fairly easily if it doesn't become a habit.

The preceding ethical analysis is irrelevant for forum administration, though. Scammer tags are given, in general, to people who break explicit agreements.

Are you saying that you may create a sockpuppet to support your business ventures and artificially raise price in your auctions "accidentally"? Like it was an accident in the road, something you did not plan and "just happened"?

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Position is -if you shill will have your public image damaged, and that's all.

There's a thread going on with buying of forum accounts for god's sake.

Forum policy: No matter how many times you do this, you will never get a scammer tag unless you have an explicit agreement which says otherwise. Auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Personally: I might forgive someone if they do this kind of thing once, but probably not twice.

I don't know if Garr lied in public (on the forum) about the account being his or not. If he did I does not look good.

I can't believe what's happening here...

I did not bid up those auctions. I am not arguing the accusation that the werner account is under my control because I want to keep my BFL orders! Otherwise, believe me: I would be!

Garr was selling the units for Cog, who is to say Warner would not have kept the units for himself? How do we know they were a fake bid?

However yes, Garr should have been open about this, but clearly not a scam.

BTC, LTC, AsicMiner and Cognitive!

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Matthew has scammed more than once and has been prevented many times.

I'm also very pissed off as a significant investor but that does not mean what he did was or was not a scam.

You still haven't answered the question. We all know why you haven't (because your answer would have to contradict the FUD you're spreading), but it is good to know that after promoting Pirateat40's massive fraud, you're still able to come back and continue promoting lies.

Hi all,

First, I apologize for taking too long to attempt to resolve this situation. I've been extremely frustrated with myself all day. I have been regretting what I have done since the moment I did it.

I hereby confess to bidding up my own auctions using the "Werner" forum handle. This is despicable, I know. I did this out of pure greed. Scamming anyone was not the priority, getting a few extra measly bitcoins for Cognitive's auction was my goal. I have always acted in the best interest of Cognitive, because I know, believe, and practice my fiduciary duty which comes as a result of handling others' assets. I want everyone to know that I will continue doing my best to run the company, the same as I always have. My track record on the forum has been flawless before this incident, and that's what hurts me most. I'm disgusted with myself when people are questioning whether they can trust me now.

Although some may view this as a petty offence (as I did previously), I do not any longer. As an attempt to at least partially make up for my wrongdoing, I am offering each of the participants in the auction, starsoccer9 and Vezunchik, BTC5 of my own personal funds, which more than makes up for the financial loss due false bids in the auction. I realize that what I have done is unacceptable, and I do deeply regret it.

Being an optimist, I can't help but try to take something positive away from a given situation. I believe that because of this incident I will make an effort to be that much better of a person. Everyone who I have interacted with aside from these auction participants, and Josh Zerlan (Inaba), would agree with me when I tell you: I strive to be a person of high moral conduct.

I apologize to everyone for letting greed get in my way. I know trust takes ages to build, and a few posts to destroy. I hope that everyone will acknowledge my past, and see that I have never acted in an externally malicious way, and have always been transparent, friendly, and courteous in all of my dealings with fellow forum members. Know that I am a man of my word: when I say I will do something, I do it. I regret bidding up the auction greatly. Please know that I have never scammed anyone nor have I stolen anything. I have done tons (probably well over 100) transactions of physical items with users of this forum and not one has gone sour. In most of them the other party was the one who had to trust me.

Again, I sincerely regret what I have done and I apologize for doing it. The small sum of bitcoins I gained from this (until I pay the auction bidders back) was certainly not worth the tarnished reputation. Never again will I allow myself to do something so crooked.

:D Who could hope for mere? :D  

Accounts being bought & sold in the open?  Meh. Not a scam, 'coz victim?
Sock accounts?  No way to prove!
A confirmed sock account?   STFU Legit!
A confirmed sock shilling?  STFU & GTFO  Legitimate sales tactic of friends respected users.
A confirmed sock with documented forum connections shilling & lying?  !11!!STFU!1!1  HE SAID HE'S SORRY, WTF dood!!!

 ??? Guess i've sopped up enough knowledge to start trading on this forum 8) <<< Gullible noob!  You ain't seen sheet!

:D Who could hope for mere? :D  

Accounts being bought & sold in the open?  Meh. Not a scam, 'coz victim?
Sock accounts?  No way to prove!
A confirmed sock account?   STFU Legit!
A confirmed sock shilling?  STFU & GTFO  Legitimate sales tactic of friends respected users.
A confirmed sock with documented forum connections shilling & lying?  !11!!STFU!1!1  HE SAID HE'S SORRY, WTF dood!!!

 ??? Guess i've sopped up enough knowledge to start trading on this forum 8) <<< Gullible noob!  You ain't seen sheet!

You still haven't answered the question. We all know why you haven't (because your answer would have to contradict the FUD you're spreading), but it is good to know that after promoting Pirateat40's massive fraud, you're still able to come back and continue promoting lies.

Look I don't even know Garr all I know is that he buys silver from me and seems like a good kid. Here are some things I want everyone to think of when posting here asking for all of the things like scam tags, untrustworthy etc.

1. Do not ask for forgiveness for yourself and justice for others. This kid (17 years old) has publicly apologized and offered up 10BTC to the winners of those auctions as a way of reimbursing them when if you look at the bidding thread there was active bidders all the way through not just Werner.

2. Would you want every mistake you've made since the time you were 17 years old labeled to your account and to follow you forever? From his history and cognitive it looks like he also has done some pretty solid things for people.

3. How many of you have ever sold an item on eBay? Now of those people how many of you have ever had a friend bid on your item to help give it a boost? I can assure you most have. It sucks and that's why I hate online auctions most of the time because I feel like this happens more often than not.

He got caught. We are a small community. It was wrong we all can see that. He has publicly apologized and has offered to reimburse this who involved. I think that speaks volumes for a kid his age.

Hey, stop playing so fast & loose.  Pirate has never scammed anyone.  Did he specifically say that he wasn't going to run off with the money?  In an interwebz-binding e-greement?  No.  So stop slandering & spreading FUD!  U got pwnt by mah logics! 8)

Your comments reflect the way most of us here feel. The current state of things demand something where people have total control and can actually decide on their own. A system with paid moderators works against that by diluting the power of your votes for change.

Looks like everyone misses the part where he also gave 5 BTC to the victims.

So to get things clear, if I dance the hoolahoop and say "Hoopla Bwana Hoopla" before I run off with the money after a deal here, that's okay because I did not state before the deal I would not do that?

Looks like everyone misses the part where he also gave 5 BTC to the victims.

Hi all,

First, I apologize for taking too long to attempt to resolve this situation. I've been extremely frustrated with myself all day. I have been regretting what I have done since the moment I did it.

I hereby confess to bidding up my own auctions using the "Werner" forum handle. This is despicable, I know. I did this out of pure greed. Scamming anyone was not the priority, getting a few extra measly bitcoins for Cognitive's auction was my goal. I have always acted in the best interest of Cognitive, because I know, believe, and practice my fiduciary duty which comes as a result of handling others' assets. I want everyone to know that I will continue doing my best to run the company, the same as I always have. My track record on the forum has been flawless before this incident, and that's what hurts me most. I'm disgusted with myself when people are questioning whether they can trust me now.

Although some may view this as a petty offence (as I did previously), I do not any longer. As an attempt to at least partially make up for my wrongdoing, I am offering each of the participants in the auction, starsoccer9 and Vezunchik, BTC5 of my own personal funds, which more than makes up for the financial loss due false bids in the auction. I realize that what I have done is unacceptable, and I do deeply regret it.

Being an optimist, I can't help but try to take something positive away from a given situation. I believe that because of this incident I will make an effort to be that much better of a person. Everyone who I have interacted with aside from these auction participants, and Josh Zerlan (Inaba), would agree with me when I tell you: I strive to be a person of high moral conduct.

I apologize to everyone for letting greed get in my way. I know trust takes ages to build, and a few posts to destroy. I hope that everyone will acknowledge my past, and see that I have never acted in an externally malicious way, and have always been transparent, friendly, and courteous in all of my dealings with fellow forum members. Know that I am a man of my word: when I say I will do something, I do it. I regret bidding up the auction greatly. Please know that I have never scammed anyone nor have I stolen anything. I have done tons (probably well over 100) transactions of physical items with users of this forum and not one has gone sour. In most of them the other party was the one who had to trust me.

Again, I sincerely regret what I have done and I apologize for doing it. The small sum of bitcoins I gained from this (until I pay the auction bidders back) was certainly not worth the tarnished reputation. Never again will I allow myself to do something so crooked.

well I guess point number 3 makes it clear I wont be bidding on any of your auctions

He could have said it was all just a joke and was trying to teach us all a lesson.

Why because I speak the truth? You and I know damn well that when we bid on an eBay item and in the last 10mins of the auction we get bid up dollar by dollar the auctioneer is bidding us up to our max. I've emailed eBay before and cancelled auctions that this has happened. It pisses me off. I hate that shit. It happens all the damn time too.

The fact is he obviously learned this practice was acceptable via whatever means and now he has apologized for it offered damages an people are still crucifying him. I'm sure 99% of the people crucifying him have done something along the way the regret as well and wouldn't want a lifetime tag of it.

The fact is he obviously learned this practice was acceptable via whatever means and now he has apologized for it offered damages an people are still crucifying him. I'm sure 99% of the people crucifying him have done something along the way the regret as well and wouldn't want a lifetime tag of it.

Look I don't even know Garr all I know is that he buys silver from me and seems like a good kid. Here are some things I want everyone to think of when posting here asking for all of the things like scam tags, untrustworthy etc.

1. Do not ask for forgiveness for yourself and justice for others. This kid (17 years old) has publicly apologized and offered up 10BTC to the winners of those auctions as a way of reimbursing them when if you look at the bidding thread there was active bidders all the way through not just Werner.

2. Would you want every mistake you've made since the time you were 17 years old labeled to your account and to follow you forever? From his history and cognitive it looks like he also has done some pretty solid things for people.

3. How many of you have ever sold an item on eBay? Now of those people how many of you have ever had a friend bid on your item to help give it a boost? I can assure you most have. It sucks and that's why I hate online auctions most of the time because I feel like this happens more often than not.

He got caught. We are a small community. It was wrong we all can see that. He has publicly apologized and has offered to reimburse this who involved. I think that speaks volumes for a kid his age.

And now for the moral dilemma that outlines the hypocrisy here. You just described the reasoning behind me making a trolling bet, yet even though I also didn't profit (in fact I paid much more than Garr will ever be able to pay in his lifetime probably) as a result of it, I'm still deemed a scammer or "untrustworthy". Why would that be? Because he's a few years younger than me?

I did it for some of my auctions when I joined eBay many years ago, and it ended up biting me: I sold it to myself!
Anyway, it's not worth it on eBay, given the high volume you always get a good price.

[...]  But Garr was a man and unlike most of the others who have made mistakes he dealt with it professionally.

I dont know what auctions you go to but It has never happened to me.

I did it for some of my auctions when I joined eBay many years ago, and it ended up biting me: I sold it to myself!
Anyway, it's not worth it on eBay, given the high volume you always get a good price.

It's also clear that you can't make the price go up that much; the real bidders have to set the price in the end. The best you can do it create a bit of hype so they raise their max.

And now for the moral dilemma that outlines the hypocrisy here. You just described the reasoning behind me making a trolling bet, yet even though I also didn't intend to profit nor actually profit (in fact I paid much more than Garr will ever be able to pay in his lifetime probably) as a result of it, I'm still deemed a scammer or "untrustworthy". Why would that be? Because he's a few years younger than me?

The late bidding is done by real bidders actually. I do it, and most experienced eBay users do it too.
There are many applications to do it, it's called "sniping". It actually works against the seller (and other buyers that are too psychological), as he does not know your max until the end.

Because you SCAMMED people.

If you used a sockpuppet and went "I want to bet 100,000 BTC", and then you "resold" those bets at 1:0.75, then you are not a scammer. People (like the bidders) accepted the new price.

Yes, people really do think you are a scammer. It is not a joke we all tried to pull on you. You cost a lot of people a lot of money while helping pirate sell off worthless debt.

[...]
eBay happens all the time.
I literally got an email from a friend the other day who was having a charity auction on eBay and I publicly posted on my FB I was winning an item for this cause and she stated "hey, you cheap ass! Thanks for the bids. I was trying to get more out of you but saw your bids were pretty minimal"
She literally was using her personal account to try and up my bid
[...more tales of joyful thievery]

No, I do not think that was me.

And the reason why this is on topic is that Matthew is trying to say cuz he got tagged Garr should as well.

I'm pointing out what Garr did and what Matthew did are not the same.

No, I do not think that was me.

And the reason why this is on topic is that Matthew is trying to say cuz he got tagged Garr should as well.

I'm pointing out what Garr did and what Matthew did are not the same.

They are the same tho. Mattew didnt steal anyones funds. He didnt take funds and disappear nor did he not return money someone gave him.

Gar pushed up his own auction requiring me to bid higher and therefor stealing coins that would of otherwise not been stolen. He didnt forcefully make me bid, but he forced me to bid higher to win.

[...]
I can't believe Theymos actually said that. "No one put a gun to anyone's head". No one put a gun to anyone's head to bet with me either. The hypocrisy is maddening.
[...]

[...]Off for a beer, I have had too much popped corn ;)

They are the same tho. Mattew didnt steal anyones funds. He didnt take funds and disappear nor did he not return money someone gave him.

Gar pushed up his own auction requiring me to bid higher and therefor stealing coins that would of otherwise not been stolen. He didnt forcefully make me bid, but he forced me to bid higher to win.

Okay and he is giving 5 of those coins back. That's not enough? Seriously? Lets start the auction over. I'd be happy with one of those units for 58BTC

I will be sending you the coins soon.

Wrong topic..

Wrong topic, or another sockpuppet account? (http://postimg.org/image/5p80vlapl/)

I'm genuinely curious as to why svbeon would be posting immediately following starsoccer9 that "I will be sending you the coins soon"

(Sorry for the postimg.org link - imgur is blocked here)

Wrong topic, or another sockpuppet account? (http://postimg.org/image/5p80vlapl/)

I'm genuinely curious as to why svbeon would be posting immediately following starsoccer9 that "I will be sending you the coins soon"

(Sorry for the postimg.org link - imgur is blocked here)

Probably just Garr255 forgetting which account he's on again.

I bought accounts from btctalkaccounts, he gave me shit ones that were made by the same user and linked together. scammer

Wrong topic, or another sockpuppet account? (http://postimg.org/image/5p80vlapl/)

I'm genuinely curious as to why svbeon would be posting immediately following starsoccer9 that "I will be sending you the coins soon"

(Sorry for the postimg.org link - imgur is blocked here)

Wow, OK. Possible sockpuppet(s) of Garr, shill bidding, shill bidding is OK because "price negotiations," possible screenshot faking by Inaba, "enough evidence to open an investigation on Inaba," Garr has some of the forum's money, aaand more possible sockpuppet(s).

I'm sure I missed something. TL;DR please?

Theymos is Matthew's sock puppet.

Just kidding, it is mostly Matthew crying that cuz Matthew is a scammer and got tagged more than once then everyone who does something questionable should get the tag.


And then some "victims" begging for coins.

This is getting better and better....


+100

Wrong topic, or another sockpuppet account? (http://postimg.org/image/5p80vlapl/)
I'm genuinely curious as to why svbeon would be posting immediately following starsoccer9 that "I will be sending you the coins soon"
(Sorry for the postimg.org link - imgur is blocked here)

Why because I speak the truth? You and I know damn well that when we bid on an eBay item and in the last 10mins of the auction we get bid up dollar by dollar the auctioneer is bidding us up to our max. I've emailed eBay before and cancelled auctions that this has happened. It pisses me off. I hate that shit. It happens all the damn time too.

The fact is he obviously learned this practice was acceptable via whatever means and now he has apologized for it offered damages an people are still crucifying him. I'm sure 99% of the people crucifying him have done something along the way the regret as well and wouldn't want a lifetime tag of it.

TL;DR there are only 3 different humans participating in this topic. Although some think it might be 2.

Garr255 shill bidding, legit screenshot by Inaba, Garr255 confesses to being Werner, Garr255 says he might have been lying about confession #1, more evidence found connecting Garr255 to Werner,  Garr255 confesses to being Werner (again), Garr255 says he will pay 5BTC to victims of confirmed shill auction.  Starsoccer9 says hasn't been paid yet.  Svbeon says "I will be sending you the coins soon".

That's about where we're at right now.

Thank you :)
Why can't theymos just check Werner's IP and see if it equals Garr's? Yeah yeah Tor etc, but if Garr was this careless, he's probably more careless.

[...]
Why can't theymos just check Werner's IP and see if it equals Garr's? Yeah yeah Tor etc, but if Garr was this careless, he's probably more careless.

Thank you :)
Why can't theymos just check Werner's IP and see if it equals Garr's? Yeah yeah Tor etc, but if Garr was this careless, he's probably more careless.

Yes, Garr could have just kept his mouth shut but thought being open was the right thing to do.

Yes, Garr could have just kept his mouth shut but thought being open was the right thing to do.

Garr *has* kept his mouth shut for 2 days, and when it became blatantly obvious that weaseling out is not an option, he fleshed out the "i'm so sorry love me for being honest & repentant 4realz!" boilerplate, and posted it here, signing it with a (mocking us?) cursive font -- the kind you see on all the cheap "so sorry for your loss, can't afford a Hallmark" cards.

After you get fully refunded will you try to buy your unit back?

I sure hope you get a full refund, even if 5 extra is sent your way. After all you did get "scammed" Need to void that auction.  I will pay for it myself if I get the unit.  ;)   BRB going to send a PM.

Please read the entire thread before making assumptions. I did not do any such thing, but I cannot argue against my apology to Josh because he would then be able to cancel my preorder.

I am simply acting in the way those familiar with the term fiduciary duty would expect me to.

Sorry for the drama, that's not what was intended (by me).

Please read the entire thread before making assumptions. I did not do any such thing, but I cannot argue against my apology to Josh because he would then be able to cancel my preorder.

I am simply acting in the way those familiar with the term fiduciary duty would expect me to.

Sorry for the drama, that's not what was intended (by me).

I can't believe what's happening here...

I did not bid up those auctions. I am not arguing the accusation that the werner account is under my control because I want to keep my BFL orders! Otherwise, believe me: I would be!

I have always been known to be one of the most transparent and trustworthy people around here. I'm sure a few btc might seem significant to some of you, but please be assured that I'm not going to SCAM people out of a few coins, because I value my reputation much more than that!

I'm genuinely disgusted with the outcome of this. Again: I'm going to hold to that apology because it is my fiduciary duty to do so, no matter what it does to my reputation.

Apologies for the mass confusion.

Hey all, regarding the Werner account:

I am not allowed to argue against what I have stated in my apology to BFL and Josh, else they will cancel my orders, which would be devastating.

I had to swallow my pride and set my ego aside so I could act in the best interest of others, as I stated previously. What I can say: It is appalling that someone would accuse me of doing something as low as bidding up my own auctions. You make me sick.

As I said, I'm not going to argue against the all-powerful BFL only because I value those orders more than a few peoples' opinions of me.

--Garr

I sure hope you get a full refund, even if 5 extra is sent your way. After all you did get "scammed" Need to void that auction.  I will pay for it myself if I get the unit.  ;)   BRB going to send a PM.

Well I can tell quite clearly that you want my unit. I do not want a full refund as I do actully want the unit. If he wants to give me a full refund plus 5 I will be a bit pissed about it. If you are interested in the unit feel free to contact me as I would sell it obviously higher then i bought it for.

Although some may view this as a petty offence (as I did previously), I do not any longer. As an attempt to at least partially make up for my wrongdoing, I am offering each of the participants in the auction, starsoccer9 and Vezunchik, BTC5 of my own personal funds, which more than makes up for the financial loss due false bids in the auction. I realize that what I have done is unacceptable, and I do deeply regret it.

After you get fully refunded will you try to buy your unit back?

Gar's identity is not in question -- he both admitted & apologized.  

TL;DR: theymos' reply:  shilling and socks perfectly valid here.

What's up with this community's need to be scammed?  From Pirate to Spongebob to Zhou Tong to the numerous "securities" schemes . . . is it just that you all need something to spend your bitcoin on?  If I ever needed fast cash, I would just come to this board and post an "investment" opportunity.  Not only would I make a bunch of money off of idiots, if I came out and apologized, over half of the community would think I'm a great guy.  

Garr did not say this, but it seems like a good policy  ;)   They guy clearly got "scammed" he should get his money back in full. Void the deal :)

Ebay canceled the listing not me. They want me to "verify" my account with ID because the price is much higher than anything I've ever sold to protect the buyers which is something they are good at. They also want me to prove I own the device by having the manufacture send them a receipt. They also asked why shipping would be delayed if 25K wasn't met. They couldn't understand that. This is a good thing. It gives me a chance to make a listing that doesn't rub anyone the wrong way and using Bitmit which is what I should have used in the first place.

Now, do I trust that much money sitting in escrow on Bitmit?

Mentioned in one of the answers to the questions posed on ebay, I plan to use these funds to fuel development of a 3rd party BFL chip miner.

Thanks,
      Allten

Garr did not say this, but it seems like a good policy  ;)   They guy clearly got "scammed" he should get his money back in full. Void the deal :)

Satisfaction guaranteed or 100% money back is not a good policy? Oh come on now!! That is like the best policy evar!

But it is clearly a policy designed to pocket Cognitive the difference in value now that Singles are shipping.

Starsoccer9 won the auction for ~BTC63, Is (supposedly) getting BTC5 from Garr255/Werner/(maybe svbeon) netting him a single for BTC58 fairly, which was recently up for auction at close to BTC184.

Satisfaction guaranteed or 100% money back is not a good policy? Oh come on now!! That is like the best policy evar!

But the guy is a victim, he said he was abused! We need to make it right. Give him 100% of his money back ASAP!

Before the race yeah, they should give it back! This guy did not get his unit. Same thing, race is not over :)

Rampion: I'm saddened that you don't think I'm worthy of participating in the community because of one blatantly stupid mistake. I've never done anything else wrong and do not plan to ever again.

Seems like the only logical thing to do. He thinks he was a victim so fine, void the sale. If he on the other hand was not a victim and is happy, well don't void it. But really can he be happy with the deal and be a victim? No, not at all.

Are you serious? Its basic logic.

/forgetting 'bout how gox goes/
So you would not feel scammed if you have purchased bitcoin at $50, the price went up to $100, and instead of getting your coin, you got fifty bucks?

Seems like the only logical thing to do. He thinks he was a victim so fine, void the sale. If he on the other hand was not a victim and is happy, well don't void it. But really can he be happy with the deal and be a victim? No, not at all.

Are you serious? Its basic logic.

If I was going around the forum saying oh knowz Mt Gox "scammed" me and I am a victim then yes, it would be fair for them to give me the money back.

If I was not bitching like a baby then I would feel cheated if it was voided.

Still, it is the most fair and logical thing to do eh?  ;)    We need to make the victim whole!   He is a victim and he got scammed, gota fix it!

Still, it is the most fair and logical thing to do eh?  ;)    We need to make the victim whole!   He is a victim and he got "scammed", gota fix it!

Rampion: I'm saddened that you don't think I'm worthy of participating in the community because of one blatantly stupid mistake. I've never done anything else wrong and do not plan to ever again.

No.  In no way is it fair.  

Starsoccer9 was victimized out of ~BTC3 due to Werner bumping up the auction falsely after Starsoccer9 already had a winning bid.

Now you are suggesting victimizing him again, to get more money for you/Cognitive/Garr255/Werner/svbeon

Starsoccer9 was already aware of it, was further made aware of it, and now the rest of us are aware of your obvious agenda.

edit: misspelled Werner's name.  Sorry fake guy!

But to your point, yes if I was going around saying I was a victim I would be happy to get my money back. If I was not a victim and bitching I would not want my money back.

So forced refunds are okay? Be sure to tell Josh and Garr that!

I wouldn't bother arguing the point - you're playing his game when you do so.  He's trying to take the discussion off-topic to give a reason why the thread can be locked.

He doesn't actually believe that if someone breaks one part of a contract (in this case price discovery) then rectifying that entitles them to nullify the remainder of the contract.  He's just trying to help a friend out by derailing the thread with nonsensical arguments.  Just ignore him - everyone knows he's wrong and most know that HE knows he's wrong.  If his pretend argument were true then anyone could intentionally break a contract (or reveal that they'd previously broken it) in order to cancel the whole deal.

Still, it is the most fair and logical thing to do eh?  ;)    We need to make the victim whole!   He is a victim and he got "scammed", gota fix it!

At least some people get the joke  ;D

You're loving this just a touch too much, goat. BFL Josh found a good apprentice in you ;D

Again, I sincerely regret what I have done and I apologize for doing it. The small sum of bitcoins I gained from this (until I pay the auction bidders back) was certainly not worth the tarnished reputation. Never again will I allow myself to do something so crooked.

Your going to basic insulting and not trying to argue with my logic shows to me that you know I am right.

As an outsider, and being bored at work today, I read all of this, and all of the stuff on Matthew's "bet". Now, perhaps I am missing something, but here are the points I see as relevant:

1. Did matthew actually take money form anyone? (from what I could see, he did not)

2. Reading the huge thread on his "bet", I actually found myself laughing quite a bit. How could ANYONE have actually thought that it was serious? It's like watching Reality TV and thinking it isn't all scripted.

3. Where did he "actually" scam anyone? Scamming, to me anyway, would be defined as stealing money in some way. I can't see anywhere this happened.

4. It seems like all the upset people were upset because they didn't get any free money, which they did nothing to get anyway. None "lost" any that they already had. Too me its like giving my friend saying he will put $10 on a horse for me. He ends up not going to the track, so he never bets on a horse. Did I get 10 bucks scammed?

5. Garr OUTRIGHT robbed people. In an ACTUAL auction (in my state anyway) shill bidding is FLAT-OUT illegal. Period. It's like going thru the drive thru, then the cashier adding $5.00 onto your bill and keeping it. Did she hold a gun to your head to make you buy your Doritos Tacos? No. Did she scam you? HELL YES!

6. It is VERY obvious that the apology was a last resort, no way out. "Oh look, I sent a picture of my penis to someone and I am a politician. I can just deny it was me." "Oh look, they tied the picture to my account, shit, no way out of this now." "I am deeply troubled by the penis picture. I am seeking help, and am extremely dissapointed in my own actions." Muhahahah, next time I will buy a disposable cellphone!!

7. Refusing to ban/scammer tag/etc Garr can ONLY be because of some sort of friendship/financial/dating/WOW buddies or some other relationship. I mean what grey area is there here? He scammed, plain and simple, and got caught doing it. And he didn't do it just once either. That Werner account was NOT new.

I am writing this all down though, gonna sell it as the next Netflix Original Series! "The BTC Conspiracy--A 10 part limited series, only on Netflix"

How your defending Garr now turned to attacking the auction winner, trying to get his auction win turned back?
Yeah, you are to up your elbow in Garr's "business", and a miserable person on top of that. Just like your cry buddy Garr "I'm so sorry", sorry because he got caught, he tried to damage others and lied for 2 days to get the better of it, and has no other option now to come "clean". Bleh, too late

Obviously no one physically forced anyone's hand, but Garr certainly invalidated StarSoccer's previous bid, by bidding with his alternate ID. Thus, StarSoccer had no other choice but to increment his own bid, if he wanted to win the auction. Clearly Garr had no intention of winning his own auction, and he knew that if by placing his bid, he was forcing all bidders to bid at a new price point. I wasn't involved here, so I'll chalk this up to semantics, but we should really be asking the bidders themselves if they felt like they were forced into submitting higher bids.

I will full-heatedly dispute that this is in any way similar to a reserve price. Reserves are always set before bidding begins, before interest in the item can be gauged. Additionally, in any respectable auction system, the reserve price can not move, like Garr had the ability to do with his Werner account. He was giving everyone the impression that there was broader market interest in the item. This is what we call creating a bidding frenzy.

Pretty much this.

Garr255, you do know that you have a quote from Ghandi in your signature.
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”  -- Mahatma Gandhi


Here are a few more:
There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed.

It is health that is real wealth and not pieces of gold and silver.

The moment there is suspicion about a person's motives, everything he does becomes tainted.

Try to live up to your hero.
Good to see it looks like you already started.

Confession of errors is like a broom which sweeps away the dirt and leaves the surface brighter and clearer. I feel stronger for confession.

Your going to basic insulting and not trying to argue with my logic shows to me that you know I am right.

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it except that Garr255 should have warned bidders that he might do it. I rank his actions there as "a bit shady," though he handled the fallout badly (due to inexperience, I suppose).

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

Garr255, you do know that you have a quote from Ghandi in your signature.
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”  -- Mahatma Gandhi


Here are a few more:
There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed.

It is health that is real wealth and not pieces of gold and silver.

The moment there is suspicion about a person's motives, everything he does becomes tainted.

Try to live up to your hero.
Good to see it looks like you already started.

Confession of errors is like a broom which sweeps away the dirt and leaves the surface brighter and clearer. I feel stronger for confession.

Wait, you're sending starsoccer9 the coins that Garr255 said he was?

Only in the bitcoin world do you have morons paying 63BTC for a freaking asic. i can get you 1500 g/h worth for about 500 bucks from china. freaking noobs

No way! No fuckin' way! Surely not! OMFG! Getting another cup of coffee before reading the next post. Coffee is my  popcorn.

It's almost certainly someone pretending to be a sock-puppet of Garr's for a laugh.

Rampion: I'm saddened that you don't think I'm worthy of participating in the community because of one blatantly stupid mistake. I've never done anything else wrong and do not plan to ever again.

Only in the bitcoin world do you have morons paying 63BTC for a freaking asic. i can get you 1500 g/h worth for about 500 bucks from china. freaking noobs

Bullshit.  It just didn't surface [yet]. Just go register a new handle, this one is toast.

Unfortunately he'd have to register a new real name to get the credibility of this one

Just to add fuel to a raging inferno.  My single arrived.  Just need to pick it up.  Order 1821.  What number was Garr?

This kind of angers me... BFL gives promoters the items out of line.

I have the absolute first SC Single order (#1656), and not even a shipping notification yet.

As an outsider, and being bored at work today, I read all of this, and all of the stuff on Matthew's "bet". Now, perhaps I am missing something, but here are the points I see as relevant:

1. Did matthew actually take money form anyone? (from what I could see, he did not)

2. Reading the huge thread on his "bet", I actually found myself laughing quite a bit. How could ANYONE have actually thought that it was serious? It's like watching Reality TV and thinking it isn't all scripted.

3. Where did he "actually" scam anyone? Scamming, to me anyway, would be defined as stealing money in some way. I can't see anywhere this happened.

4. It seems like all the upset people were upset because they didn't get any free money, which they did nothing to get anyway. None "lost" any that they already had. Too me its like giving my friend saying he will put $10 on a horse for me. He ends up not going to the track, so he never bets on a horse. Did I get 10 bucks scammed?

5. Garr OUTRIGHT robbed people. In an ACTUAL auction (in my state anyway) shill bidding is FLAT-OUT illegal. Period. It's like going thru the drive thru, then the cashier adding $5.00 onto your bill and keeping it. Did she hold a gun to your head to make you buy your Doritos Tacos? No. Did she scam you? HELL YES!

6. It is VERY obvious that the apology was a last resort, no way out. "Oh look, I sent a picture of my penis to someone and I am a politician. I can just deny it was me." "Oh look, they tied the picture to my account, shit, no way out of this now." "I am deeply troubled by the penis picture. I am seeking help, and am extremely dissapointed in my own actions." Muhahahah, next time I will buy a disposable cellphone!!

7. Refusing to ban/scammer tag/etc Garr can ONLY be because of some sort of friendship/financial/dating/WOW buddies or some other relationship. I mean what grey area is there here? He scammed, plain and simple, and got caught doing it. And he didn't do it just once either. That Werner account was NOT new.

I am writing this all down though, gonna sell it as the next Netflix Original Series! "The BTC Conspiracy--A 10 part limited series, only on Netflix"

I have the same read on this that you do.

When I came to bitcointalk I was expecting to find a tight group of folks who valued honesty.

Sure, there would be the Josh type of idiot and the ever present crowd of minor thieves and pickpockets but the luminaries of the forum would reasonably be good people.

Theymos, Goat and Garr are not meeting that expectation.  The worrisome part is other folks, even those universally respected (John K.) in the community seem to turn a blind eye to this and support it, if only by association.

The really strange thing is the guy that this forum has branded as "Untrustworthy" is actually the one person here that I do trust.

This is one eff'd up place.

I personally agree that this is something bad, and that it should be looked into. I've always been against the notion of having sockies here, like I told theymos last time... Anyway, only theymos can do the checks here (barring Thomas Stefan of course). I'll PM and direct him to this thread.

This is one eff'd up place.

...

If he wanted to win the auction then obviously he was willing to pay BTC63, no? He's still not forcing anybody to pay money they would not be willing to pay. This is equivalent to refusing a price in a bargain, something perfectly reasonable.

I don't see any problem in what Garr did, however I am disappointed he didn't warn people he was doing this. However, that's still not something worthy of a scammer tag.

Please do not post with a sock puppet for the next 15 minutes, I ran out of pop corn, be right back!

I have the same read on this that you do.

When I came to bitcointalk I was expecting to find a tight group of folks who valued honesty.

Sure, there would be the Josh type of idiot and the ever present crowd of minor thieves and pickpockets but the luminaries of the forum would reasonably be good people.

Theymos, Goat and Garr are not meeting that expectation.  The worrisome part is other folks, even those universally respected (John K.) in the community seem to turn a blind eye to this and support it, if only by association.

The really strange thing is the guy that this forum has branded as "Untrustworthy" is actually the one person here that I do trust.

This is one eff'd up place.

Yet another person I will NOT have fiduciary dealings with.

This is a very useful thread.  I could not devise a better test for determining who is and is _not_ honest.

Yes, it is.

If he wanted to win the auction then obviously he was willing to pay BTC63, no? He's still not forcing anybody to pay money they would not be willing to pay. This is equivalent to refusing a price in a bargain, something perfectly reasonable.

I don't see any problem in what Garr did, however I am disappointed he didn't warn people he was doing this. However, that's still not something worthy of a scammer tag.

This is the 2nd disheartening thread in one week for me... between Avalon being accused of mining with customer equipment and mods allowing sockpuppets, BTC is causing me more anxiety than fiat.  8)   
...I am just too much of a geek to walk away from it... but I do have a threshold  :-\

Wait!!!!!

You (your forum) refused to confirm Werner is Garr's sock puppet for how long?

You (your forum) refused to violate the sanctity of a deleted post for how long??

Now, just off hand, you quickly confirm that an account that makes Garr look bad _is_ a sock puppet.


Dude, this is REALLY wrong.  You are playing favorites.  You are using your position on this forum to promote your own interests and that of your friends.  You are doing this in a fashion that appears to be underhanded.  

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck; it is a duck.

You, theymos, are looking as bad as Garr and Josh.  Perhaps you should look to MNW as a role model of how to do the right thing.

I just considered not posting the above to protect my presence here.  Fuck that.  Go ahead.  Delete this post and ban my account if you think it necessary.

If this forum represents bitcoin, bitcoin will suffer a long time before it succeeds, if ever.

...

John K. did show up, and took what seems like the fair stance on all of this, back on page 2

You should see all the wicked stuff that is done with *real money.

Yes, it is.

Completely agree... I have seen and experienced it first hand. 'There ain't no rest for the wicked'  ;D... Just thought I would find something different in bitcoins, I was just being optimistic I guess. I should have realized that people are evil and allowing them to 'cloak' themselves just gives them more freedom to be evil. I know there are some good people out there... just no clue how I would ever find them without putting out a lot of risk with a high chance of getting burned in the bitcoin world.

Right, except they weren't bargaining. They were in a binding auction, and last time I checked, an auction doesn't automatically get advanced to the maximum amount that a bidder is "willing to pay".

If Gar255 hadn't of called it an auction, rather, a multi-person multi-account bargain that functions rather like an auction would you agree that what he did isn't morally incorrect?

If Gar255 hadn't of called it an auction, rather, a multi-person bargain that functions rather like an auction would you agree that what he did isn't morally incorrect?

FYP

If Garr255 hadn't of called it an auction, rather, a multi-person multi-account multi-person bargain that functions rather like an auction would you agree that what he did isn't morally incorrect?

It's a multiperson BARGAIN. He's allowed to change the price to whatever he wishes. The buying must make the decision to either buy or drop the at the current price Garr255 is offering.

It's ridiculous people think the mere fact that Garr255 is setting a price to something he is selling is morally wrong. Garr255 can do whatever he pleases with the price of what he is selling (As long as he commits to a buy). What's morally wrong of Garr's actions is the decision to keep this price manipulator anonymous. Had he revealed the existence and admitted to the use of the account before beginning the "auction", his actions would be completely free of any moral fault.

I agree that what he did isn't morally correct even without these alterations.  I'm kidding, i know, typo i can't read..  If he called it anything other than an auction, the buyers would have no preconceptions, and thus would be *forced* to ask "how exactly does this work."  People assume they know how auctions work, see my point?
edit: strikethrough.

[...]
 What's morally wrong of Garr's actions is the decision to keep this price manipulator anonymous. Had he revealed the existence and admitted to the use of the account before beginning the "auction", his actions would be completely free of any moral fault.

In other words, if he shilled from his own account (why bother with establishing an alt if everyone knows it's you?), everything would be fine, yeah.  Lulzy, 'coz no one would be stupid enough to think of the charade as an auction, but ethically wrong?  No.

The mere fact that he has an 'anonymous' account that he pretends to act like someone else, to me, is morally wrong and deceiving.

I completely agree to that, however it's beside the point. The point is the moral validity of manipulating the prices to his desire, which I find completely valid.

Had Garr255 warned he would "shill" his "auction" beforehand, it would remove the need to use a anonymous account.

+1

Who would participate in such a farce?

N… No I don't see what you're trying to say.

Or at least, what I extracted from your post is that you believe Garr255 calling it an auction was a mistake, he should have called it something else so people would be forced to ask how it works, and thus would be informed of the rules of the "auction" beforehand, therefore negating the moral invalidity of Garr255's actions?

It just seems like you are trying to shed a positive light on a situation that didn't actually happen?... fact is, he did do it anonymously. As you said, if he didn't, we wouldn't be here right now.

Pretty much, though moral invalidity is a bit high flung & confusing for me.  Wrong.  People presume they loosely understand what an auction is. The word "shill" -- never used in any but the derogatory sense -- is a part of that understanding, specifically that shilling is illegal & thus would not be a part of an honest auction.  See where i'm going?

I would. He's selling his stuff, why shouldn't he have control over the price of the sell? Hell, if he wanted to he could sell it for a fixed price of BTC100, but he didn't, instead, used the "auction" as a tool to gauge the demand of his audience, then placed a price point.

I'm saying his actions as a whole were partially incorrect (due to the fact he used an anonymous account), however the act of setting his own pricepoint wasn't. It seems people here are arguing that his setting of the pricepoint of his own items is morally incorrect, which I find ridiculous.

Hell, if you were to sell your own prized possession and the price people are willing to pay for it is below the price you're willing to sell at, wouldn't you want to manipulate the price?

I do, however, once again, agree 100% that the act of doing so using an anonymous account is very incorrect.

Okay, I am making an open request to Gar255 so I have nothing to hold against him. I ask he does the following:

1. Verify you are still sending me the miner and have intent to so

2. Verify you plan to send the 5bitcoins

3. Confirm you wont ever shill bid your own auctions ever again

Okay, I am making an open request to Gar255 so I have nothing to hold against him. I ask he does the following:

1. Verify you are still sending me the miner and have intent to so

2. Verify you plan to send the 5bitcoins

3. Confirm you wont ever shill bid your own auctions ever again

Okay, I am making an open request to Gar255 so I have nothing to hold against him. I ask he does the following:

1. Verify you are still sending me the miner and have intent to so

2. Verify you plan to send the 5bitcoins

3. Confirm you wont ever shill bid your own auctions ever again