In the book of Jude its said that satan disputed the body of moses with the arc angel Michael. I wonder why?

Before I had my son, I used to dislike kids. They touch everything, are cranky, throw fits, are loud etc...
Now that I have my son, I am more tolerant, but still don't like them very much. I love my niece and nephew, but don't really like to be around other kids.
I'm not really sure why, they make me feel on edge.

Enoch also, exceptions, there's also this from Matt 27;

50And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit. 51And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent; 52and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised; 53and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many. 54Now the centurion, and they that were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

were these the ones John saw in his vision in Revelation 20;4 or was he seeing a future event of all the "saints" that will be in Heaven, then we are told David is not among these in acts....

29Men and brothers, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us to this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which you now see and hear. 34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens,

It confusing to me because it goes to when the 1000 year rien begins, but makes sense that in what we understand being subject to time that some may have the first shot at heaven while others wait. Christ being timeless could still be the first friuts. So i think your point (if i guess your point right) that we go to heaven or hell at death is moot, and at the end we all get what we are descend for

I think it would be the final judgment, not pleasant but not eternal, each judged on their works
from rev 20

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

saints are with Jesus, the unsaved remain dead or killed when Jesus comes 4-6

7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Satan and his armies war against the saints 7-10

11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

1000 years are done the rest of the dead are judged and also thrown into the lake of fire 11-15

When you eliminate a source of knowledge…You become an idiot…People behave the same today as they behaved than, strangely every things the same…Actually one of the best arguments against evolution is the fact that we haven't changed…Still full of greed, envy, all of the vices…Behaviors have remain the same.

I saw something on the history channel about the stories in the Bible and one of them was about Noah's arc. The way they put it was that alien DNA was responsible for all the creatures loaded on this arc. The main point was it was the only way possible to bring 2 of every creature on, through DNA samples. The logic many Christians would use is anything is possible with God, but its also possible the stories were pictures we could understand while not taking anything away from what really happened. So i guess this explanation could help the skeptic who God i'm sure would know wouldn't believe such stories.

I would point out that the Bible suggests in some places that salvation is not an action we initiate first but a drawing from God. Also even if someone believes they are secure in their own salvation what about people they love? How do they live with the idea of never ending torture for them?. This doctrine just on a common sense level falls short. If one believes choosing to accept God or not is a personal choice how does that square with one option meaning something no one would choose or even conceive? However if death as defined a ceasing of life forever, which all people are aware of anyway, then being free to choose (if that's what one believes) makes sense .

Keeping an open mind is important since no one can understand everything, but i doubt salvation is dependent on getting a doctrine right or being unsure up until the day of death. The problem is closing ones mind and then being in a position to hammer dogmatic beliefs onto others.

The scary part of hell is endless torture which isn't my claim if you forgot what tomas and myself are discussing, and yes i know what Gehenna was .

If you go back to page 1 i think post 8 (to lazy to look now) the thing about 3 different hells all translated as just the one word Hell. So i would say Gehenna describes Matt 5, which would mean the lake of fire and second death where the wicked are casted .

Looking over this thread i noticed my own points get some what confusing, but i think the main point is clear. I think the Bible builds a much better foundation on ultimately annihilating the wicked and the points for eternal torment couched in parabolic language and misinterpreted. Its the 1000 year rein that had me confused, the first resurrection which involves fire also, and the resurrection of the saved isn't the end finally. After the 1000 is the real end and fire involved again which devours satan and everything and everybody. I was confusing the 2, if there is a 1000 year rein which seems likely.
Revelation 20:5 'the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished'.

I don't think with Rigon its a point of discussion but personal, maybe stemming from far back. Even if i agreed on the idea that the Bible offers no foundation of belief it doesn't mean the doctrines can't be debated on to see if a foundation on any one doctrine holds up. So to say we are wasting our time to discuss any of it and to state the same thing over and over on every thread is rude.

I didn't lose interest. I just don't take the subject in to large doses, i've seen to much religion to fast mess with minds. The sensible approach is small doses like not abusing a drug, even scripture refers to milk as opposed to meat. Zolace you can continue to try and disprove my ideas on a never ending hell not being real, but i can only say i may not be in the state of mind of a quick response, but eventually i will respond, sooner or later .

how are you getting theses coins?  There are very nice

arent these cards getting blocked, or no more more issues?

I grew up in a conservative Republican farm family. My Grandfather had been a county commissioner and my dad was politically active. My only brother was an Army vet and very conservative.

I ran for and won the Youth Governorship of Ohio as a republican.

But the VietNam war changed my perspective. I saw government hurting, not helping America and students, not older leaders, fighting the good fight against a war for no cause.

Still, I was a moderate, voting for Nixon, Ford, Reagan.

But their policies left too many folks behind and helped the richest too much. By the end of the Reagan presidency I was still a moderate but the country had moved so far to the Right I was seen as a liberal.

And so it is today. I am a moderate in the world of right wing political insanity. It is difficult for me to imagine (not really looking for a fight here) how any thinking person could support the policies of the American political Right today.

So now i am a liberal...who knew?

Coming to a neighborhood near you, you just won't know when it hits because the media will cover it up because they wouldn't want to offend muslims. I don't care what the left says, wherever the religion of peace goes violence in the name of allah follows it. The ME has been at war for 14 centuries because the so called moderates do nothing to stop the "radical", nothing to stop the violence. And now the security of the US and the success of the "operation" against isis depends on those moderate muslims putting their boots on the ground.

Like showing that well educated people like you and doe that were handed a degree aren't always sane, well educated or good citizens let alone good parents? You would think that with your expertise, self acclaimed of course, you'd be looking at the mental health issue, but of course that would require some compassion for a white guy from the south.

Did he have some source when he wrote it, or did he just decide to write down a lie? 400 years isn't that far ahead for a historian 


if you have links, or a link where you get your line of thinking and i have time i'll check it out, but the Bible which was written down by serious men. Even if it didn't have secular writings back everything up, its still something i'll always consider far above a story of santa.

BTW since obama killed osama that murder has been used as a recruiting tool and al qaida has more than doubled in size and tripled its attacks and isis has flourished. So, under bush al qaida was on the run, without a home country, short on cash and their leader lived in hiding and under obama their leader is dead, their numbers are flourishing, their bank accounts raking in close to $100 million a month and they're killing thousands per day. There's a reason Americans feel less safe under obama and it sure as hell isn't because he's done a good job squashing terrorists. Maybe its because he can't even admit they are muslim terrorists.
dd loves to brag that obama has killed more al qaida leaders than anybody ever but when it comes down to it all that killing with drones didn't stop the terrorists from flourishing under obama.