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1061  Economy / Economics / Re: The deflationary problem on: May 09, 2013, 10:40:58 PM
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Most, maybe.  Until they learn that Litecoin permits free transactions.

This doesn't take into account that security is the MOST important part for some of us.. I wouldn't switch because i would want my coins kept in the most secure network. Not the cheapest.


And yet, as you point out, the important fact is not what is important for some of us, but what most of us are willing to pay for.  What you may want, or I, is irrelevant.

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How much?  Can your quantify it, or you just guessing?  Obviously, that was retorical, I know your honest answer.  You must make many assumptions about how much network "health" (a very subjective metric to start with) would be lost, and how mch is enough.  These things are unknowable.  Let the market decide.

True, true.. and yet..

Well, actually as I'm sure you know, in April 2013, 1 billion dollars (in bitcoins) was sent over the network.. At 0.1% that would have paid the miners 1 million dollars just in TXN fees..

Would that make the network MORE or LESS secure ? Would miners be MORE or LESS interested in being part of that network.. ? Surely it will incentivise the miners in the right way ?

OK - I can see we are not going to agree :-) BUT i just want it known, that for many of us, a HIGHER hashrate, better networking, and a more secure network, is really important.. not trying to squeeze out the cheapest transactions possible. A coin that did have a fixed fee, and rewarded it's miners in a MORE predictable way, would be a feature for me.


Go for it.  Make our own alt-coin if you have the skills.  I wouldn't trust it as far as I could throw it, personally.

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There is a lot of talk about what should/might/may happen, when the TXN fees ALONE (basically) will need to pay for the network, and I hope that happens, but does a little push in the right direction really hurt SO MUCH..
 
I'm going to call it quits now..
 

Neither of us will likely  live to see the endgame.  Again, that's not even going to happen for another 115+ years.
1062  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Yes, we're aware of Monterey Bay Marine Sanctuare, and the NOAA buoys. FAQ :) on: May 09, 2013, 08:52:06 PM
Most important, you did not answer my question about docking facilities for my sailboat!!!  (Yes, it is a serious question)

...

We're perfectly well aware of the location being in the Monterey Bay Marine Sanctuary, and that's discussed in the FAQ, along with the NOAA buoys, pictured on the map. I've added the link to the prohibitions, which if you read carefully, don't apply to us, since they're concerned with exploiting oil and gas resources, not harming marine mammals, not removing historical resources, several discharges "other than from a cruise ship". The only prohibition that applies to Blueseed is this:

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Discharging or depositing from within or into the Sanctuary any material or other matter from a cruise ship except clean vessel engine cooling water, clean vessel generator cooling water, vessel engine or generator exhaust, clean bilge water, or anchor wash.

Which is great, and easy to comply with.

...


I hope compliance is as easy as you foresee.  The degree of restrictions you may encounter might surprise you. 

For example, if you intend to moor your vessel (seems like it would be cheaper than constantly running propulsors to maintain position), you may encounter a requirement for "ecologically friendly" anchors.  This can be challenging since the folks making up the requirements are not necessarily the best judges of what is "ecologically friendly".  One proposal I am aware of suggested the anchors be made from granite instead of the more common iron. 


A parachute type sea anchor?

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I am concerned about your "30 minute ferry" from Half Moon Bay.  That requires a ferry that travels an average of 24 knots.  Add in delays for clearing Half Mood Bay harbor and you are looking at a vessel that can transit some pretty rough water at 25+ knots.  Last time I was in Half Moon Bay it did not seem like a good place for a vessel that large.


Really?  We're not talking about a car ferry, so it's really a water taxi that can seat roughly 30 people and their carry-on gear.  A vessel that large and faster than that is old hat.  Most large cities wrapped around a bay have one or more of these in their harbor already.
1063  Economy / Economics / Re: The deflationary problem on: May 09, 2013, 08:38:53 PM
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That's the idea.  The market finds a balance.  There is no other way.

Hmm.. Forgive me, but is that not the same as this..

We let Children into a room full of sweets. They will eat as many sweets as they can before they are sick. They won't eat more than that, as they will be feeling ill, and won't want any more.. The Market will find a balance.

Yes this is true, but where is it said that this is the BEST AND ONLY way.. ?


It's closer to giving your kids a dollar, and telling them to pick out their own candy at the store.  If you've ever seen a six year old deliberate over the selection for an hour, clutching that dollar in his hand, you've just seen the principles of Praxeology in play.  Particularly "opprotunity cost calculation".  Giving kids candy is a real 'tragedy of the commons'.

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People  do NOT understand the complexities of bitcoin TXNs. They just want to send their money. IF they were perfectly informed about the PRO's and CONs maybe most would choose to pay. But they will not be perfectly informed.

Those who need to understand will learn.  It's a fairly easy concept that free transactions can take a long time, so if you need speedy, pay the fee.

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When asked if you could transmit your coins for free, OR pay a tiny TXN fee and help the network be more secure, how many will pick the former over the latter ? I can imagine that MOST people will go for the free option, of course..

Probably; unless the confirm times average over a week, which they eventually will.  Again, there are other ways to pay miners for support off network.  On network is retail.  Free transactions must be possible for off network solutions to develop.

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Whereas if they weren't given a choice, and told that they had to pay 0.1% fee, MOST wouldn't bat an eyelid.. and say, That's fine.


Most, maybe.  Until they learn that Litecoin permits free transactions.

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It just seems that we are giving a choice were the NON-Obvious choice , pay a small fee, has very little against it and WILL make an ENORMOUS difference to the health of the network.


How much?  Can your quantify it, or you just guessing?  Obviously, that was retorical, I know your honest answer.  You must make many assumptions about how much network "health" (a very subjective metric to start with) would be lost, and how mch is enough.  These things are unknowable.  Let the market decide.
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I can see how this goes against the whole FREE-MARKET thing, but don't people need to be BETTER informed, which they WON'T be, to make a GOOD decision ? Could that be the problem..?

Sorry to keep harping on about this, but many FREE-MARKETs have crashed because people are not mathematical objects, that don't have to behave rationally. They're human after all..  Grin



The individuals don't need to be well informed for the 'market' as a whole to be well informed.  Look at intrade.com. 

“The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.”

― Friedrich von Hayek


1064  Economy / Economics / Re: The deflationary problem on: May 09, 2013, 12:19:08 PM
I have to disagree..

Okay.
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I know we can leave it up to the miners and they will come up with a value that meets their demands and the demands of the users, but that will not be as secure as the users want it, and it won't be as many fees as the miners want. It'll be somewhere in the middle..

That's the idea.  The market finds a balance.  There is no other way.
1065  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: WHy the fuck so many alt coins? on: May 09, 2013, 12:15:34 PM

In the same way that Firefox is an open source version of Navigator and has successfully incorporated features into the codebase that Windows IE pioneered, there is no innovation that any alt-coin can make that Bitcoin can't just steal, if such an innovation proves to be desired by the public.

Bitcoin may adapt by copying what makes its competitors successful, but then the argument could be reversed and say that "Well, Bitcoin is only cloning the success of Litecoin's SCrypt, so why would we use Bitcoin instead of Litecoin?"


The first mover advantage & Bitcoin's much greater network effect.  On many technical points, AOL was a better network than the Internet at large.  The Internet improved.  AOL is not dead though, still used by old people running modems.
1066  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bootstrapping the pruned blockchain on: May 09, 2013, 06:56:34 AM
A light client has to trust other nodes to not collude to tell it lies, but doesn't have to trust a single node; it can request reports from several random nodes and compare notes.  If node A says XXX = 5 BTC and node B says XXX = 10 BTC, ask nodes C, D, E & F to see what they say (by default, the bitcoin client talks to at least 8 randomly chosen peers).  If all of the others agree with A, node B is lying to you, and you can safely ignore it forever.

As for bootstrapping a fresh full node, a full blockchain isn't actually required.  The reference client is built with both a zero trust methodology and a high degree of paranoia, both great places to start for such a project.  However, a full node can be altered to start it's own bootstrapping from 1) an internally hardwired & pre-pruned copy of the blockchain, which it trusts automaticly because it's part of it's own code, 2) from the most recent 'checkpoint' encoded into it's own code (search for the term on the forum) in much the same way that the genesis block is encoded into the clients' codebase now, or both.  It's neither necessary, nor particularly helpful, if every new client has to start from the genesis block; eventually clients that start with an internally checkpointed block number from within the past year or so will be much more common.  A client that uses both methods can entirely skip years of pruned transactions and hashwork, and still mine against the resulting pruned blockchain.
1067  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: WHy the fuck so many alt coins? on: May 09, 2013, 06:38:10 AM


If a coin is actually going to "make it" it will need more than a slightly modified version of Bitcoin or Litecoin.


Bitcoin has the first mover advantage, and by a long margin.  The only way any alt-coin ever "makes it" is 1) if it serves a niche market Bitcoin was not optimized for (i.e. Namecoin) or 2) manages to make a huge leap in some technical or economic fashion which cannot be replicated in Bitcoin itself (almost impossible) or 3) Bitcoin turns out to have some fatal bug in the protocol itself.

Which of these scenarios is most likely?

You mean like 2) a quicker blockchain or a non-SHA algorithm or more coins, if so desired by society?

Yes, if so desired.  Note, however, that these are not changes that cannot be replicated in Bitcoin itself.  The faster block interval is unlikely to change, but the hashing algo is deliberately modular in Bitcoin.  There is nothing magical about SHA-256.

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You do realize that Netscape was the first mover by a long margin, right?


Indeed.  You do realize that Firefox is a direct code successor to Netscape Navigator, right?  Netscape (the company) did not cease to exist because they failed to compete with IE, they ceased to exist because they were legally destroyed by M$.

In the same way that Firefox is an open source version of Navigator and has successfully incorporated features into the codebase that Windows IE pioneered, there is no innovation that any alt-coin can make that Bitcoin can't just steal, if such an innovation proves to be desired by the public.

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Bitcoin may lead now, we have no idea about the future. I strongly believe that Bitcoin 10 years from now is either gone or something quite different from what it is today.

.b


Again, evolution.  I have no doubt at all that bitcoin will be something quite different, but it will still be bitcoin.  Keep on mining your litecoins, though.  Bitcoin still needs it's evolutionary failures.  Keep in mind that this is a bitcoin discussion forum; if bitcoin didn't have something to gain from the alt-coin section, would it be here?
1068  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: WHy the fuck so many alt coins? on: May 09, 2013, 06:22:51 AM


If a coin is actually going to "make it" it will need more than a slightly modified version of Bitcoin or Litecoin.


Bitcoin has the first mover advantage, and by a long margin.  The only way any alt-coin ever "makes it" is 1) if it serves a niche market Bitcoin was not optimized for (i.e. Namecoin) or 2) manages to make a huge leap in some technical or economic fashion which cannot be replicated in Bitcoin itself (almost impossible) or 3) Bitcoin turns out to have some fatal bug in the protocol itself.

Which of these scenarios is most likely?
1069  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: WHy the fuck so many alt coins? on: May 09, 2013, 12:54:09 AM
Why so many alt-coins?

Evolution, of course.  Those are the dead-end muations.
1070  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Do most bitcoin users actually think.. on: May 09, 2013, 12:42:35 AM
Do most bitcoin users actually think that bitcoin is going to 'replace other currency, ATMs on every street corner', etc. at some point in the future? Is such a future actually necessary for bitcoin's continued success or maintainance?

I personally think that such a view is not realistic, but I like bitcoin because I believe in the concept, so I will continue to use bitcoin on some occasions. Is the view I mentioned the general consensus of users that use bitcoin, or just the opinion on a few of what COULD happen? Just want to know people's thoughts..


While I don't think that Bitcoin is ever going to exclusively exist as money, and that some form of fiat currency will continue to exist pretty much everywhere on Earth; I do think that Bitcoin (or it's successor) has the potential to become the world's next global reserve currency.  I can't envision a future wherein international trade is likely to return to any kind of gold standard; too many problems with letters-of-credit and such that Bitcoin solves natively.  In two generations, banknotes with the promise of "backing" by Bitcoin reserves will be common enough as well.  The age of paper fiat currencies is fading away, but it will take many generations before fiat is no longer dominate.
1071  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-05-08 New Statesman - To Regulate Or Not To Regulate? on: May 09, 2013, 12:37:01 AM
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In March, the world’s first Bitcoin ATM was opened on Cyprus after banks had been closed for a week. The ATM allows customers to deposit “real money” into a Bitcoin ATM in exchange for bitcoins and vice versa – making the virtual currency, a very real option for those who didn’t have access to money during the Cypriot crisis.

Huh  Huh

That's the most accurate part of the article.
1072  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-05-08 New Statesman - To Regulate Or Not To Regulate? on: May 09, 2013, 12:33:40 AM
It's too late to regulate.  The Bitcoin network is too big to suppress, the protocol is regulation resistant by design, and a large portion of the userbase would actively resist attempts by any government to annex bitcoin.

The only bitcoin users who are going to submit to regulations are the corporations that labor under such regimes already.  The common user will actively evade regulations whenever possible.  The common man already does so whenever he can using cash and barter transactions.  Have you ever heard of anyone paying taxes on a yard sale?  And the taxman hates the farmers' markets.  Bitcoin makes such evasions commonplace, almost trivial in nature.  Evasion of regulations and taxes within the bitcoin userbase will be more common than not.
1073  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin snack machine (fast transaction problem) on: May 09, 2013, 12:27:18 AM
Ripple, obviously. It is credit while the underlying currency settles.

Yes, true. Ripple solves this problem.

For the sake of the Bitcoin only argument, though, I think the idea of verifying unconfirmed transactions would be useful.

My company is considering blocksplit insurance. basically allowing everyone to accept 0 confirmations and be insured if a bad actor began double spending or going off on their own chain

just not sure what people would pay for that

I'd say that one half to one full percent of the purchase price would be about right.  That's about what the credit card companies charge to deal with fraud, and I wouldn't expect that zero-conf frauds would amount to greater rates of fraud.  Start at one percent, and see how profitable you are.  If it's profitable enough, some competitor will come along and force you to lower your rates.  If it's not profitable, you'll stop doing it too.
1074  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin snack machine (fast transaction problem) on: May 09, 2013, 12:24:00 AM
In truth, there are several ways to solve this problem.  I expect that most will be tried in some form or another, and the best solutions will come to dominate, and most clients will evolve to be able to use those methods.
1075  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: [ANN] Bitcoin on Blueseed, the international waters startup ship on: May 08, 2013, 11:21:27 PM
Blueseed will be no worse, nor better, protected from unidentifiable attacks than any other naval vessel in international waters.  Admirality law applies in this context, and firing upon any ship flying a legally recognizable flag is an act of war.  That doesn't mean that it can't happen, but there are a number of less risky methods of undermining the Blueseed project than attacking the ship itself.  With the right kind of insurance coverage, sinking the ship won't even end the project.  Just make sure that the underwriting company is a major US corporation, so any losses that Blueseed takes can be translated directly into tax losses for the US tax base.
1076  Economy / Economics / Re: The deflationary problem on: May 08, 2013, 11:12:17 PM
Bitcoin generation does not end in 2040

There IS a minimum transaction fee, it's just optional for the miners to accept or not.  Some will certainly not accept free transactions eventually, others will accept free transactions that are paid off network.  The on-network transaction fees are the "retail" method of paying for the network.  There are a number of likely off-network methods of paying for miners to run the network.  This is not a tragedy of the commons scenario.  Free transactions should always be possible, let the market decide if they are viable, not the code.
1077  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin snack machine (fast transaction problem) on: May 08, 2013, 11:02:43 PM
to do a SUCCESSFUL double spend requires alot of speed and hardware. but to send out 2 transactions to 2 different addresses using 2 clients but only using one private key supply does not require expensive equipment. A successful double spend requires a confirm on both sides. meaning the 10 minute wait. but sending out 2 transactions that don't require waiting the 10 minutes is piss easy.


Not easy.  Let me se you try it.

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accepting unconfirmed transactions should only be allowed on products with delayed delivery. such as bitpay which can inform merchants that the payment has failed in 10 minutes and the merchant still has time to email the customer to attempt the payment again before losing their next-day delivery slot.

it is never EVER acceptable for instant access content.

It's fine for a great many things.  A movie streamed over the Internet, for example, because it can be cut off if a double spend is detected.  Game or digital content licences (on Steam or iTunes for example) can be reversed.  Online services (monthly access, or even daily access) can be reversed.  All of this with a simple transaction, not using blockchain enforcable contracts.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts

Using contracts, particularly example #7, opens up some rather creative solutions beyond the simple transaction.  The "loyalty card" system can be implimented within an android phone, without a actual card, and the balance revoked at will, so one could use it as a running balance for a vending machine at work as easily as one could use it at av ending machine that they never expect to visit again.  One could use #7 to pay for gasoline at the pump, again without a 10 minute wait.  Even the most basic contract is significantly more difficult to "double spend", and may actually be mathmatically impossible under certain conditions.
1078  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin snack machine (fast transaction problem) on: May 08, 2013, 12:46:24 AM
^what coinerd says^

maybe an alternative fee service could solve this: the company could pay some amount of money to the main mining pools to include every transaction made to their addresses

Or simply pay an access fee to be a first tier peer to one or many of the largest mining pools.  If you think about it, BTC Guild could crediblely charge a small monthly fee for peers to be added to the top of their peer list, garranteed to have the highest connectivity (wherein free peers might be throttled, or not even able to connect continuously).  Logically, the major mining pools already have direct peer connections to each other, so a direct peer connection to any of the top five would only be a single hop connection to the lot.  Such a direct connection would be of value to any retailers that accepted zero confirm transactions, which would likely be the norm for meatspace retailers like Wal-Mart should they ever start accepting Bitcoin directly.
1079  Bitcoin / Electrum / Re: Electrum server discussion thread on: May 06, 2013, 02:10:14 PM
I've been thinking of an idea, but I lack the skills to follow through, so I'm going to lay it out here and let anyone who wishes take it up.

I would like to have an android client that can connect to any given electrum server, but also via TOR.  I'd also like the client to have the ability to create transactions offline using confirmed transactions for which it is already aware, and connect to other clients like itself via a shared wifi hotspot like a piratebox. (http://wiki.daviddarts.com/PirateBox_DIY)  In this fashion, the android client can develop a set of transactions in optimal amounts that would allow it to create several transactions without the need to reuse it's own change inputs for a time wherever the transacting parties have a piratebox (or any other accesspoint) with or without a live connection to an electrum server and whenever trust isn't an issue.  The use case here is like the cash you carry in your wallet.  There is only so much there, and it doesn't require live internet to work.
1080  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin snack machine (fast transaction problem) on: May 05, 2013, 04:32:29 AM
yeah I think that's an acceptable workaround, actually I was going to suggest a centralized service for syncing the mempool... but then everybody should start using this centralized service if they want to accept 0 confirmations, and that's not so cool..
probably in the future bitcoin will be just a backbone for this kind of services

Not a centralized service so much as a combined contract mining agency & insurance agency.  You pay a small monthly fee, and it becomes the insurance agency's problem that your vending machines don't get double spent against.  Your machines connect to the agency's servers, which then make every effort to get those transactions out to the largest of the mining pools as fast as possible, in order to limit the risk of being the loser in a double spend.  Agencies also might trade lists of addresses that have been known to attempt a double spend, and therefore flag those addresses should they pop up in their customers' machines.  There are many ways to undermine the likelyhood of success of a double spend attempt.
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