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1221  Economy / Economics / Re: Krugman makes some good points on: March 25, 2013, 07:32:07 PM
This is not a problem inherent to deflationary currencies.  It's also true within inflationary currency systems when the inflation rate is too high. 

So we agree deflation and hyperinflation are both bad Smiley


We can agree that both high rates of deflation and high rates of inflation increase the risk of long term contracts.  What is "bad" is a realtive perspective, in the context of economics.  Again, bad for whom?

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At least with hyperinflation you could compensate with higher interest rates. If interest rates are higher than the inflation rate, I dont see why I wouldnt lend.

Risk.  You're forgetting about risk.  That's why you shouldn't lend, if inflation is high.  It also matters why inflation is high.  High interest rates are often a reflection of a high systemic risk.  Often, not always.

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That's the real issue; not that Bitcoin is deflationary (it's not really, and won't be until at least 2100),

Currently its actually incredibly deflationary if you define deflation as price deflation.

I don't, and no economist worth listening to does either.  Inflation and deflation are best defined as the two most likely consequences of expansion and contraction of the monetary base, relative to the size of the economy that it represents, repectively.  Thus, Bitcoin is only deflationary in the contest that the rate of growth among the market exceeds the growth of the monetary base.

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 If you are only referring to the increase of money supply, then it wont take nearly that long for the supply rate to be exceeded by the economic growth rate. If you only look at the bitcoin economy thats obviously already the case and thats only going to get worse if you have any confidence in bitcoins adoption.


Again, worse for whom?  There are alwasy two parties to every trade, buck.
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the problem is that the rate of change of the exchange value is too high for such long term contracts to be sensible.  The current and past instablility is a consequence of Bitcoin's adoption rate, not any particular flaw in the system, and certainly not Bitcoin's "deflationary" nature.  It's simply not a mature economic system, yet.

Volatility is another problem which does hinder its adoption but it has nothing to do with inflation or deflation: If bitcoin reward halving protocol were devised differently so it would perpetually grow by 1 or 2% per year you would still have that. I do agree volatility is mostly because its so new and its unavoidable; but its not the fundamental problem I see with it.


The voltility, relative to the exchange rate, will mute significantly as the economy grows.  The exchange rates of small nations' fiat currencies are (almost) always more volitile than the exchange rate between major nations such as teh US and the Euro.  And if the exchange rate of bitcoins continue to rise, it's a sign of economic growth; so if the volitility and deflationary nature does result in some breaking of that growth, so what?  That too will self-correct as the economy matures.  There is no such tihing as a deflationary spiral.  It's only an economic theory that has no real world examples.
1222  Economy / Economics / Re: Krugman makes some good points on: March 25, 2013, 07:12:14 PM
It's total and absolute folly to have a monetary system where consumption is artificially incentivized. That is wrong on many levels.

I wouldnt say consumption is incentivized; after all you can just as well invest your money if you dont want to spend it.
All that is desincentivized is hoarding of saving money; I see nothing wrong with that; quite on the contrary if you agree the prime purpose of money is making commerce easier.
I see that as a bad thing.

Why? Why is it good to keep your savings in something which prime function is allowing commerce? Its better to have that money available for commerce than idling under your mattress.

Better for whom?  It's not better for everyone.  The owner of the currency should be able to choose the best method of saving.  If your method really is better, others will follow.
1223  Economy / Economics / Re: Krugman makes some good points on: March 25, 2013, 06:08:12 PM
Buying land is an investment and like any other investment it can turn out good or bad.

Almost exactly like Bitcoin...

If you look at it as an investment today, yeah maybe; though much, much higher risk and potential reward. Land is probably about as stable as an investment as you can get while bitcoin is on the other end of the scale.

But thats not my point. I dont have a problem with a risky or potentially lucrative investment; Im saying you cant use it as a universal currency to replace credit money.  No one is making that claim for land or gold either.
It just wont work if its value keeps going up. Among all other problems inherent to a deflationary currency,  no one will be able to afford a loan and no one will be willing to give one


This is not a problem inherent to deflationary currencies.  It's also true within inflationary currency systems when the inflation rate is too high.  That's the real issue; not that Bitcoin is deflationary (it's not really, and won't be until at least 2100), the problem is that the rate of change of the exchange value is too high for such long term contracts to be sensible.  The current and past instablility is a consequence of Bitcoin's adoption rate, not any particular flaw in the system, and certainly not Bitcoin's "deflationary" nature.  It's simply not a mature economic system, yet.
1224  Other / Politics & Society / Re: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working? on: March 25, 2013, 05:59:21 PM
I don't know guys. I think anarchy is like communism. It sounds great on paper, but doesn't scale well beyond a commune.

+1
An extremely isolated and small island, which used to have an unusual tribal/political system many centuries ago -- it sounds totally realistic and doable!

There was also the germanic culture prior to the formation of a German state.  For hundreds of years a loosely cooperative culture existed that spread across nearly all of the northern half of the European landmass, that never formed anything remotely like a government or a state.  However, it's hard to use that one as an example of success, since they were also largely illiterate, so we don't really have any documation concerning their culture other than the records of encounters with other cultures; primarily the Roman Empire.  The Romans considered them to be barbarians, but the opinions of third parties (particularly those in a state of low level warfare) are not trustworthy.  We know that their economy was largely resource based, and mining was a major part of their trade and livelyhood.  What little trade that they did was usually in mined salt (as noted in the history book about the topic, simply called Salt) and they were also noted to have very colorful clothing.  The old germanic tales about dwarves were likely based upon their culture.

And then there was the long history of the Swiss culture, which was stable without a central government authority or structure for a thousand years.  But, of course, that's just one little example of a bunch of mountain hillbillies, right?
1225  Economy / Economics / Re: Krugman makes some good points on: March 25, 2013, 01:58:25 PM
While this is generally true, land values do tend to rise over time simply because the population increases and thus there are more people competing for a finite resource.  It's a value change that can only be measured accurately over decades, however.

Indeed; although there is a historic  counter argument to my point. Not so long ago land was such an important economic asset and it was concentrated in so few hands that those who owned any could easily live off their ownership for generations and even accumulate more wealth in the process, while everyone else was doing the actual labor.  It was called the feudalism. And that is precisely what a deflationary currency would result in.

That is a nonsense comment.  First off, feudal lordships were functionally mini-governments, and thus the quality of life varied significantly; and the only practical difference today is that your lord is an elected political class and your lands are much larger.  The government still takes a portion of your earnings regardless of whether or not they let you think that you own the means of production or not.  The perception of practical differences are a matter of technicalogical progress and educational propaganda.

Second, the currency unit has little to do with this.  The rise of nation states (as opposed to fuedal lordships) occurred during a time period that there was literally no alternative to gold, silver, copper and barter.
1226  Economy / Economics / Re: Krugman makes some good points on: March 25, 2013, 01:42:57 PM

Krugman does not have the foggiest idea what he is talking about. Krugman is a bloody fool.

Krugman knows exactly what he is doing.  It's in his own interest to make the arguments that he does, in the forums that he does so.  At least, he believes that it's in his own interest.  To some degree, he may have even convinced himself that he's generally correct.  It's very difficult to convince anyone to understand the truth when their income requires that they don't understand.

That said, Krugman is no fool.  Krugman is a con-artist performing a long con on half of America.
1227  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: naked short selling of bitcoins - how to on: March 25, 2013, 01:16:55 PM
selling naked is extremely dangerous.
1228  Economy / Economics / Re: Krugman makes some good points on: March 25, 2013, 01:15:02 PM

What are you talking about? My money isn't worth less every year, because I invest in immovables like every other sane person. Actually land is more valuable to me than a house, so no incentive for economic activity there...

By the way, what is the difference between me getting paid in gold and paid in USD, as long as I can freely exchange USD<->Gold? Absolutely nothing, am I right? It seems to me that we are already living in your dystopia. What am I missing?

The way you put it, the only thing holding the economy together must be friction

Do you really not see the difference?
Your land is only becoming more valuable because you express its value in an inflationary currency.  Try expressing its value in bitcoin for a laugh.
The actual purchasing power that the land you own represents isnt going up significantly every year unless you made an above average clever investment.  You and future generations cant live of the value of your land for the rest of your lives and accumulate more wealth in the process, not without taking economic risks. At best it preserves your wealth.

The same goes for gold btw,  an ounce of gold buys you a lot less labor today than it did 50 years ago. It also buys you roughly as much bread as it did 2000 years ago (despite massive productivity increases in farming and baking which ought to reduce its real price). Unlike a deflationary currency, buying gold or land doesnt make one get eternally richer, its only a way to preserve wealth.

While this is generally true, land values do tend to rise over time simply because the population increases and thus there are more people competing for a finite resource.  It's a value change that can only be measured accurately over decades, however.
1229  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Incorporating an old wallet.dat.... on: March 22, 2013, 09:27:08 PM
For my next question, how do I force Bitcoin-QT to rescan the blockchain without downloading it on an iMAC?
1230  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Bitcoin is WAY too confusing for the average person on: March 22, 2013, 01:14:07 AM
Multi-bit is not bitcoin.
1231  Economy / Digital goods / Re: [H] Team Fortress 2 items [W] BTC Keys $1.25 Buds 34 Unusal planets Buccaneer$70 on: March 21, 2013, 09:54:50 PM
How much for the Demoman's new cannon?
1232  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer - MtGoxUSD wall movement tracker on: March 21, 2013, 09:53:47 PM
the UK such gains are taxed at about 18%, however if the fx is held offshore and spent offshore then the UK tax rate is zero.


What has happened to my country?!  That over the course of my own lifetime the British, who remain loyal and avowed subjects to a monarch, are more free than I am!

I need to move, but I can't (legally) take my firearms with me.
1233  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Wouldn't it be more fair if the bitcoins were shared equally? on: March 21, 2013, 09:50:31 PM
  Also if you read through it and believe you understand Bitcoin on the first try ... you don't.  Smiley

Ain't that the truth.  I read it four or five times over the course of two weeks before it clicked for me.  The first three times I read it, I would have sworn that it's some kind of complicated scam, but something about it nagged at me.
1234  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer - MtGoxUSD wall movement tracker on: March 21, 2013, 05:21:44 PM
74.9!

Not enough people selling.

Would it be bad if the market ran out of sellers for a while ?

I'd be selling if all of my bitcoins weren't already tied up into loans...

Crap.  I'll never be able to make this kind of profit from a short term loan.
1235  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Incorporating an old wallet.dat.... on: March 21, 2013, 03:50:01 PM
Have a look here for a similar question that I answered.

I'd actually tried that, but apparently symlinks aren't acceptable to bitcoin-qt.

Thanks for pointing me in the best direction.
1236  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer - MtGoxUSD wall movement tracker on: March 21, 2013, 05:09:32 AM
I owed $15 to this girl I am hooking up with, and she was excited to get 0.3 bitcoins instead! She said she was gonna use it to pay for her kids to go to college (mostly jokingly lol)

This must mean we are in a bubble  Cheesy

ok, that's almost as bad as that investor who, in 1929, was getting his shoes shined and the fricken SHOE SHINE BOY was talking about stocks and such. guy went and pulled his investments immediately. crashed happened the next day or something. i forget who this was. one of the big names.

I don't think the analogy works with bitcoin.  Our goal has been to push adoption in order to push main stream acceptance and usage.  I find it strange that all of a sudden we are trying to act shocked, SHOCKED, that people we talk to about bitcoin continuously start to show interest in bitcoins.

People talking about bitcoin is not a sign of a bubble. People being interested in bitcoin is not a sign of a bubble.  It's a sign that bitcoin is doing what it is supposed to be doing.

My problem with that theory is that much of the recent gains are due to a recent rash of good news.  What happens when there is bad news? Granted, the good news is real news, but it's been decidedly pro-Bitcoin for weeks.  We are due some bad news, like a major exchange hack.  We are, IMHO, beyond a price point that is justifiable with the current size of the actual bitcoin economic activity alone.  Hype leads to speculative bubbles.  We all know this.  What we don't know is how long we can ride it before sentiment turns sour.  What happens to the European banking panic when the asinine deposit tax proposal in Cyprus goes down in flames?  Or there is a compromise that doesn't spell the worst?  The sudden influx of Euro denominated wealth cannot be maintained.  Once the pool of risk adverse Europeans (an irony, I know) has all moved the greater part of their deposits into Bitcoin (or gold/silver/whatever) who is going to be left to support the bid wall?  Can that bid wall be supported by Argentines and Iranians evading capital controls?  I doubt it.  That's what Bitcoin is good for, but it doesn't really matter so much what the exchange price actually is if Bitcoin is only being used as a workaround for a bottleneck in the fiat currency system.
1237  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Bitcoin vulnerability on: March 21, 2013, 04:52:23 AM
21,000,000 x 8 decimal places.  Roll Eyes

It's a deflationary fractional currency.

21,000,000.00000001 BTC

I see.
Could a large financial institution discourage owning BTC simply by making it insanely volatile?
(Purchasing huge amounts then dumping them all etc..)
Sure, but they'd have to purchase the huge amounts  first unless they start naked short selling on gox (in which case we stop using mtgox).

MtGox will never permit naked shorts, as that puts them as the naked long.  That's a real quick way to go bankrupt in this market.
1238  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Bitcoin vulnerability on: March 21, 2013, 04:50:19 AM
21,000,000 x 8 decimal places.  Roll Eyes

It's a deflationary fractional currency.

21,000,000.00000001 BTC

I see.
Could a large financial institution discourage owning BTC simply by making it insanely volatile?
(Purchasing huge amounts then dumping them all etc..)

Depends upon how much money that they were willing to lose.

Your awesome quote just introduced me to a book I had never read. Thanks!
Care to share? Cuz I wasn't quoting anyone on purpose.
Probably about your sig?

Oh, that one. Sure.

Want to see something disturbing?

enter "Depends upon how much money that they were willing to lose" into the google search box.
1239  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Bitcoin vulnerability on: March 21, 2013, 04:37:06 AM
21,000,000 x 8 decimal places.  Roll Eyes

It's a deflationary fractional currency.

21,000,000.00000001 BTC

I see.
Could a large financial institution discourage owning BTC simply by making it insanely volatile?
(Purchasing huge amounts then dumping them all etc..)

Depends upon how much money that they were willing to lose.

Your awesome quote just introduced me to a book I had never read. Thanks!
Care to share? Cuz I wasn't quoting anyone on purpose.
1240  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Bitcoin vulnerability on: March 21, 2013, 03:41:17 AM
21,000,000 x 8 decimal places.  Roll Eyes

It's a deflationary fractional currency.

21,000,000.00000001 BTC

I see.
Could a large financial institution discourage owning BTC simply by making it insanely volatile?
(Purchasing huge amounts then dumping them all etc..)

Depends upon how much money that they were willing to lose.
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