Dash's Masternodes, what are they ? how many are there ? why should i care? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=860067.0Date : 17 Nov 2014 See specifically in that thread : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=860067.msg10193880#msg10193880 (the Masternode Payment schedule) That was my initial reason for trying to get as many masternodes as i could. In 2015 the blockreward split settled on 45% / 45% / 10%, but i was still in buy mode till 2017, when the Dash bull run emerged (pretty much out of the blue) and drove up the Dash price too high for me to continue buying. I seem to recall other altcoins followed with their bull run a bit later (early 2018 ?). |
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LOL on the entire 'ROI' discussion. It's not that important, but the term is obviously incorrectly used for Dash masternodes and staking projects for example.
ROI applies to anyone with 1 Dash or 10 masternodes. It is your return on your invested capital, thus in USD/EURO/... It can be positive or negative. It can be -98% or +10,000%.
Dash masternodes (and staking) coins give you a return or reward which is not ROI. Currently the masternode service reward is around 6%, but that is not 6% ROI. If that were true, Dash would be a scam. Ergo, Dash should never apply the ROI term when it comes to Dash masternodes.
It is not Dash applying the ROI term, it is countless other websites and articles covering crypto in general that are applying the ROI term to masternodes projects, staking projects and DeFi projects. Obviously they have a different opinion about the terminology of 'ROI' in the crypto space. ROI is currently applied to : * Calculate the price performance of cryptocurrencies over a certain time period * Calculate the annual percentage increase on the Dash collateral and MN payments / shared masternodes projects / staking projects * Calculate the return of gain from investment divided by cost of investment in FIAT * Calculate the percentage return on DeFi projects. I have no problem with any of that, it just means ROI in crypto has more then one specific definition and is moving beyond the traditional calculation in FIAT. I suspect the more crypto gets mainstream used, the more it will incorporate and expand some of the more traditional terminology. |
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Tell that to messari and coindesk and all those other sites that have been using ROI as 'approximate return on investment if purchased at the time of launch, or earliest known price' or use it as a
price performance indicator. I don't know why you're posting that. It doesn't support your fantasy definition of "ROI" since none of them put the invested asset on the denominator of the ROI calculation as you do. They all use cost of investment at the time of purchase on the denominator, consistent with the Investopedia definition I posted above. It's just that they offer a range of results against different currencies invested. So if you invested dollars in Dash you'd get the ROI based on the change in $USD value of Dash. If you invested BTC in Dash you'd get the ROI based on the change in BTC value of Dash. The only currency you CAN'T use to calculate ROI is Dash itself because you don't invest Dash in Dash. So is the ROI as shown by messari.io under 'Change vs BTC (7D)' :   the same way calculated as this ROI ?  How does cost of investment play a role in Messari's ROI ? Are these two ROI's not completely different ROI's ? One ROI focused on price performance and the other ROI focused on gain from investment divided by cost of investment ? |
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As more then one definition of ROI is being used in crypto, i think our current ROI usage in crypto is perfectly acceptable and i feel there is no problem using it.
There isn't "more than 1 definition of ROI in crypto". Tell that to messari and coindesk and all those other sites that have been using ROI as 'approximate return on investment if purchased at the time of launch, or earliest known price' or use it as a price performance indicator.   Source : messari.io Obviously there is more then 1 definition of ROI. If you don't want to accept that, that is fine. Keep denying it. In the case of Dash Masternodes, ROI is used as annual interest calculation on the Dash collateral & its masternode rewards. Which means we already have three different definitions and usage cases of ROI. |
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Return on Investment (ROI) has more then one definition :
No there isn't there's only 1 which is the one cited in my previous post. Any other definition is philosophical at most. We are discussing the Dash Masternode ROI being used as a simple crypto annual interest percentage calculation with regards to its Dash collateral The don't called it "ROI" because it isn't a return on investment, it's a rate of accrual of Dash which is a very different thing. They are even numerically different. They can even have different signs, one plus the other minus. The two cannot be conflated unless it's a stablecoin. As more then one definition of ROI is being used in crypto, i think our current Masternode ROI reference in cryptospace is pretty clear and i feel there is no problem using it. Specially seeing how widely used it is already. Hell, even Messari.io use ROI for crypto currencies. The only person having a problem with it, is you. I am sure in time you will get over it. |
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Return on Investment (ROI) has more then one definition : In the context of cryptocurrencies, ROI refers to the approximate return on investment if purchased at the time of launch, or earliest known price.
The results may surprise you as the favourite Bitcoin only ranked 5th among the top 30 cryptocurrencies.  Source : https://blockchain.news/analysis/which-cryptocurrency-has-the-highest-roi-as-of-q1-2020-bitcoin-only-ranked-5thIn crypto ROI can also be used for interest percentage calculation, which is what we have been discussing for awhile now. And i am sure ROI can also be used in financial or fiscal situations to calculate the amount of return on a particular investment through gain of investment divided by cost of investment, but that is not what the Dash Masternode ROI is being used for on many sites and articles these days (or in the past).  We are discussing the Dash Masternode ROI being used as a simple crypto annual interest percentage calculation with regards to its Dash collateral, not to calculate the amount of return relative to gain of investment divided by cost of investment or ROI relative to a certain time of purchase or earliest known price. |
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And no, i will not stop using the term ROI in this forum. What a silly thing to demand.
Masternode ROI is:
(Annual Reward + Capital Gain or Loss on the Collateral) as a percentage of the opening value (in dollars or other equivalent stable currency) of 1000 Dash.
It is not: (Reward / Collateral) You can continue to call it that if you like but it's extremely misleading at best and outright deception at worst. Dash Masternode ROI as referenced in several websites and in numerous articles has nothing to do with FIAT or capital gain or capital loss, it is a crypto-based ROI that just focus on the 1000 Dash collateral & the masternode rewards (in Dash) and converting those MN rewards (in Dash) to a yearly figure (in Dash) and then calculating the percentage difference. Nothing more and nothing less. It is merely used as interest calculation. Examples : 1000 Dash to 1056,76 Dash = 5.68 % ( https://dash-news.de/dashtv / pille) 56,76 dash / 365 days = 0,1555068493150685 Dash per day 56,76 dash / 12 months = 4,73 Dash per month 1000 Dash to 1059,837735 Dash = 5.98% ( http://178.254.23.111/~pub/Dash/Dash_Info.html / Payments per Day/ crowning site) 59,837735 / 365 days = 0,163939 Dash per day 59,837735 / 12 months = 4,99 Dash per month This is so typical of toknormal, once again trying to enforce his own terminology onto this forum, when it is clear the crypto space is using another terminology (interest calculation). Just like masternodes supposedly also functioning as zero-cost miners (or visa versa), talking about extremely misleading at best and outright deception at worst .... pfffffff |
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So many articles and website use ROI to describe it, i wonder why.... i guess they also consider it a return on investment.
But it isn't and no investor that researches Dash is going to pretend it is, so stop using it because it only obscures the understanding of how the monetary mechanics of our investment work. Or maybe your terminology is just too shortsighted ? Funny how someone can speak for all investors researching Dash. And no, i will not stop using the term ROI in this forum. What a silly thing to demand. |
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I invested in Dash because of its masternode rewards and its MN payment schedule...I therefore think it is perfectly reasonably to call it ROI You may think that but it isn't "perfectly reasonable" and no self respecting investor would accept that definition. If it held, it would mean that a positive "ROI" could still leave you with a valueless holding. Very few investments are without risk. Specially in the crypto space. |
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Calling the masternode reward "ROI" is therefore a misnomer. It is not a 6% "return" on anything. It's just 6% of the collateral but that's not what you invested, it's what you purchased WITH your investment.
I invested in Dash because of its masternode rewards and its MN payment schedule (MN rewards were scheduled to go from 30% to 60% of the blockreward in two years, back in 2014) I therefore think it is perfectly reasonably to call it ROI, specially since i also had certain expectations about future ROI and was focused on increasing that ROI even more by setting up more masternodes. The capital loss and capital gain situations as described in your example is something i am anticipating and take into account during tax events. I think there is just more then one way of looking at this. Particularly when you have expectations about a much higher Dash price appreciation over time and are looking at this from a long-term perspective. |
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No, not when we are talking about the Dash ROI percentage / Dash annual revenue percentage.
But that is not ROI. It's the "Dash annual masternode revenue" expressed as a percentage of the collateral. That is not ROI which is a very different thing. It is the same thing in crypto. You have 1000 Dash You have 5.98% annual interest you receive 59,837735 Dash ROI annual / Annual Revenue = 59,837735 Dash ROI percentage annual / Annual Revenue percentage = 5.98% There is no difference in crypto between crypto annual revenue percentage and crypto annual ROI percentage, so far i can see. Some use annual revenue percentage, some use ROI percentage, some even use APR percentage (Binance) but that perhaps falls outside this discussion as users basically loan their Dash to Binance. |
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I said ignore any FIAT information there.
Did you actually read anything I wrote in this post ? It's the FIAT gain that's relevant, not the Dash. No, not when we are talking about the Dash ROI percentage / Dash annual revenue percentage. It is a crypto based percentage, not a FIAT based percentage. FIAT is completely irrelevant to the Dash ROI / Dash annual revenue. 1000 Dash to 1056,76 Dash = 5.68 % ( https://dash-news.de/dashtv / pille) --> Dash annual revenue percentage 56,76 dash / 365 days = 0,1555068493150685 Dash per day 1000 Dash to 1059,837735 Dash = 5.98% (crowning site) --> Dash annual revenue percentage 59,837735 / 365 days = 0,163939 Dash per day The reason why there is a difference in Dash ROI percentage / annual revenue percentage is because both sites calculate the MN rewards differently (which i showed by showing the MN rewards per day for each of them). I am inclined to believe that the 5.98% Dash ROI percentage / annual revenue percentage is more accurate. |
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That's all based on a fairytale world of a fixed Dash/USD exchange rate. Again, Dash is not a stablecoin so the USD projections are irrelevant. The ROI figures are also therefore irrelevant because it's the Dash/USD exchange rate that dominates ROI, not masternode reward. I said ignore any FIAT information there. Please re-read my post. None of the FIAT information there is used to calculate the Dash annual revenue percentage. None !! It is all calculated over Dash figures. You are getting distracted by all the FIAT information, that you should actually be ignoring for the calculation of the Dash ROI / Dash annual revenue percentage. It is only about 1000 Dash & the masternode rewards in Dash and converting those MN rewards (in Dash) to a yearly figure in Dash. Then you simply check the increase in percentage : 1000 Dash to 1056,76 Dash = 5.68 % ( https://dash-news.de/dashtv / pille) 56,76 dash / 365 days = 0,1555068493150685 Dash per day 1000 Dash to 1059,837735 Dash = 5.98% (crowning site) 59,837735 / 365 days = 0,163939 Dash per day I suspect the 5.98% annual revenue through crowning's site is more correct, simply because the masternode payments (in Dash) are better calculated there. https://dash-news.de/dashtv (leading to 5.68 %) seems to be more on the conservative side. It uses an API from moocowmoo that seems to use lower MN rewards (in Dash) See : https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dashtv-the-easy-way-to-keep-an-eye-on-your-investment.7373/page-7#post-224553 |
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You say you never mentioned "ROI" but you keep bringing up a figure of 6% without specifying what that is so I'm assuming you're alluding to the annual masternode reward as a ratio of collateral, promoted on Dash websites as "ROI" (which it isn't because the invested capital is dollars or some other currency, not Dash).
Lets take a look at this site : https://dash-news.de/dashtv/#curr=USD&value=1000 Focus only on three things in this picture : 1000 Dash 4.73 Dash per month Annual Revenue percentage in Dash : 5.68% The FIAT info is just additional info, ignore it1000 Dash 4.73 Dash per month x 12 months = 56,76 Dash Percentage increase from 1000 Dash to 1056,76 Dash = 5.68 % Annual Revenue percentage in Dash = 5.68% Lets take a look at another site that shows a bit higher annual revenue (its is actually named ROI there) http://178.254.23.111/~pub/Dash/Dash_Info.html (ROI)  Focus only on the Return On Investment (ROI), ignore everything else.Here the ROI is provided (5.99%), but not explained. To explain it we need to know the masternode rewards, which we gather from the payments per day : http://178.254.23.111/~pub/Dash/Dash_Info.html (Payments per Day)  Dash per masternode per day : 0.163939 Dash Dash per masternode per year = 0.163939 Dash x 365 days = 59,837735 Dash Percentage increase from 1000 Dash to 1059,837735 Dash = 5.98% Annual Revenue / ROI in Dash = 5.98% |
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Bookmarked it in case i ever need to reference it... thanks Nthelight.
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The US regulating on specific blockchain addresses sounds like something doomed to fail anyways. Totally unrealistic.
It might not be as bad as it sounds and has some benefits for users. The main one is that if you can verify ownership of a specific withdrawal address then the withdrawal can be identified as a non-taxable movement. On the other hand if they don't know the identity of the withdrawal address then it can be assumed as a de-facto disposal which means the IRS or whoever could potentially slap a capital gains liability on the value of the entire withdrawal amount. Having KYCd withdrawal addresses mitigates that. I think this will go against the privacy laws from the EU, which prohibits information about the privacy of EU citizens flowing from the EU to the US. Which means exchanges operating in Europe are not allowed to comply. The EU Court of Justice already killed the Travel Rule in Europe and invalidated the privacy agreement between the US and Europe (Privacy Shield)  Source : https://twitter.com/finhstamsterdam/status/1288490297689878528Also see this : https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/the-eu-u-s-privacy-shield-invalidated-74627/If i was a masternode operator, i would make sure to get an European VPS provider and operate my masternode at an European location, much better laws on personal data & privacy protection in Europe. |
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Isn't this more applicable to those somewhat 'shady' exchanges where no KYC rules are in place ?
It does show the US has taken a much harder stance on crypto, then other countries.
Coinbase, Kraken et al. At the moment you don't need to KYC specific blockchain addresses, even on those exchanges but that's what this is about. If this gets passed, then i think Kraken will start excluding US customers completely and just focus on the European market. The US regulating on specific blockchain addresses sounds like something doomed to fail anyways. Totally unrealistic. |
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