At time of writing, 77.3% of a sample size of a thousand think they should get the tag. Where is it?
It's tucked away nicely under the rather large pile of money BFL has thrown at this forum. I doubt BFL has shipped 23% of their total orderbook (especially since 50% if it seems to have happened from Mar/Apr 2013). This means there are still people who have not received a unit that don't think they are a scam. If public opinion mattered, Casey Anthony would be in Jail, Michael Jackson would have been in jail and probably never died. Since there is a burden of proof here, it really doesn't matter what the public THINKS. So the fact that BFL is breaking FTC regulations is irrelevant? BFL is illegally withholding customer money by not honouring order cancellation when the customer asks for it. That alone is worth a scammer tag (if it still existed). |
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I would say that all this talk about PS4 game pre-orders etc. is what Yifu considers noise.
I don't really care what the Prima Donna considers noise. A civil discussion is taking place, sure it's OT to this thread but this thread is way past being anywhere near on topic or relevant to the OP anyways. If he, you or anyone else can't handle a civil conversation, feel free to ignore it, its not that difficult. |
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Actually BFL was a start up when they started selling FULL PAYMENT PRO-ORDERS for their FPGA line up which was late and they missed the power consumption. BFL used customer pre-order money to start up the FPGA line and the ASIC line. Secondly when you purchase some pre-order PS4 or game, Sony, EA, Blizzard DO NOT use the pre-order monies to develop the product. Secondly because a lot of those pre-orders are done with CC through a retailer, the retailer doesn't even get the money from the CC company UNTIL the product ships (the CC company puts a "hold" on the funds on the card so you can't spend it again) but the company doesn't receive a nickel until the product ships. Not to mention that both PS4 and game pre-orders do not lock your money into them form months, if you want a refund you will have it quickly (mostly because it would be against the law not to lol).
You can certainly justify this model to yourself and lots of others can justify it as well, however using full payment pre-order money to develop a product is not common in the real world and I assure if any of these companies end up in a court of law they will find out very quickly the law does not allow a company to shed most of their risk onto a CONSUMER.
I thought this discussion was about ASICs not how companies got started? I was responding to statements you made directly. You stated my assessment was flawed for your two reasons, I responded to those two points, that's how a discussion works, isn't it? Now you insinuate I am going OT on those points? (I agree this tangent is OT from the OP) |
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We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive. I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so
We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"! I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves! By Not giving them any more money!
It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns. BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same. Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer. Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case). Better to work in a collective / cooperative manner and deal directly with fabricators. The individual has little or no recourse. I am not talking group buys I am talking proper collective / cooperatives where risk and capital investment is shared equally.To me this is the crux of the issue. I can't justify the current risk/reward proportions between the company and the customer. I find it so weird that people happily fund a complete strangers start up for no equity, all they ask for (and atm there isn't even a guarantee they will get it) is simply a machine that may or may not provide a positive return on investment before it becomes obsolete! Any vehicle that puts the risk reward proportions back the way the rest of the world works is a good thing. I am trying to think of another market where customers purchasing a product (no equity, royalties or future considerations are received just the product) also fund the start up of the business, can anyone think of one? I agree with that assessment at the time there were no avenues for other than pre-orders... let us hope that changes but given the size of an investment now for something off the shelf I doubt people have tens of thousands kicking around just to get in the game. The rich in this will get richer regardless of the available hardware be it pre order or off the shelf. That is where I am thinking the game has really changed. There will be fewer avenues for the individual. Nah, there is gaping flaws. eg. BFL were not a startup, they were selling FPGA hardware well before ASIC, secondly pre-orders are common, just look at the PS4 for example, or many game titles. Actually BFL was a start up when they started selling FULL PAYMENT PRO-ORDERS for their FPGA line up which was late and they missed the power consumption. BFL used customer pre-order money to start up the FPGA line and the ASIC line. Secondly when you purchase some pre-order PS4 or game, Sony, EA, Blizzard DO NOT use the pre-order monies to develop the product. Additionaly because a lot of those pre-orders are done with CC through a retailer, the retailer doesn't even get the money from the CC company UNTIL the product ships (the CC company puts a "hold" on the funds on the card so you can't spend it again) but the company doesn't receive a nickel until the product ships. Not to mention that both PS4 and game pre-orders do not lock your money into them form months, if you want a refund you will have it quickly (mostly because it would be against the law not to lol). You can certainly justify this model to yourself and lots of others can justify it as well, however using full payment pre-order money to develop a product is not common in the real world and I assure if any of these companies end up in a court of law they will find out very quickly the law does not allow a company to shed most of their risk onto a CONSUMER. |
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We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive. I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so
We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"! I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves! By Not giving them any more money!
It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns. BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same. Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer. Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case). Better to work in a collective / cooperative manner and deal directly with fabricators. The individual has little or no recourse. I am not talking group buys I am talking proper collective / cooperatives where risk and capital investment is shared equally.To me this is the crux of the issue. I can't justify the current risk/reward proportions between the company and the customer. I find it so weird that people happily fund a complete strangers start up for no equity, all they ask for (and atm there isn't even a guarantee they will get it) is simply a machine that may or may not provide a positive return on investment before it becomes obsolete! Any vehicle that puts the risk reward proportions back the way the rest of the world works is a good thing. I am trying to think of another market where customers purchasing a product (no equity, royalties or future considerations are received just the product) also fund the start up of the business, can anyone think of one? |
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We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive. I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so
We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"! I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves! By Not giving them any more money!
It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns. BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same. Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer. Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case). |
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At time of writing, 77.3% of a sample size of a thousand think they should get the tag. Where is it?
It's tucked away nicely under the rather large pile of money BFL has thrown at this forum. |
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Man, that's some high quality distortion of truth.
The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."
If, after taking the customer’s order, you learn that you cannot ship within the time you stated or within 30 days, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delayed shipment. If you cannot obtain the customer’s consent to the delay -- either because it is not a situation in which you are permitted to treat the customer’s silence as consent and the customer has not expressly consented to the delay, or because the customer has expressly refused to consent -- you must, without being asked, promptly refund all the money the customer paid you for the unshipped merchandise.
Source: well.. just google it.
Last I checked, they said they would ship by last December. Not sure what this complaint is in reference to; I assume it's a later purchase?
You guys should read the rule further. BFL has received customer agreement to an "indefinite delay". When you purchase a BFL product you agree to wait 2 months or more. According to the mail order rule this is what a company must do if they ask for and receive an indefinite delay. I've pointed this out in a number of threads and people seem to ignore it. Not only must they offer cancellations/refunds they must provide the client a statement that they have the right to cancel the order any time until the product ships. So BFL is not only doing the opposite of what they are supposed to, they are also further breaking the mail order rule by telling the client no refunds are possible. They are telling the client the exact opposite of what the FTC tells them they must tell the client. •a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship. http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-ruleIt is irrelevant if or what they used the pre-order money for, it is also irrelevant what that they claim in their ToS about all sales are final, they have a legal obligation to refund customers that ask for one full stop. Anything else is clearly against FTC regulations. People around Deadwood need to realize the difference between an investor and a customer because the law does not allow for a blend of the two just because there is some wording on a webpage! |
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I am tired of this toxic community malformed by greed.
Can't believe what this person just wrote, after collecting 10-15 mil. US$ and keeping them for months, while leaving us hanging out here, he has a nerve to post something like that. PR does not seem to be the boys strong suit. |
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Does anyone have the names of the CEO and COO "fullnames"? Whats inaba name? Josh Zerlan, who is the other guy? Sonny Vleisides
Whats the registered company adress and whats the adress of their facility?
I need as much informations as possible. I had a very very good phone conservation with kansas general attorny. I need as much informations as you guys can provide me. (got scammed out of 25k)
Their site claims they are incorporated in Wyoming. Looks like they were registered in Missouri as well at some point. http://opencorporates.com/companies/us_wy/2011-000606261 |
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Personally I like mining alt coins,,,we are starving for new faster GPU's or (asic) "scrypt boards" per se" ......can it be done???  It can be done, but there appear to be two problems with an FPGA for scrypt. Current estimated $/kh/s is higher than 79xx GPU's, they are obviously more energy efficient than GPU's but with the higher cost/khs it would take a high electrical rate or a very long time to overcome the difference. LTC FPGA's estimates are not showing the same jump in "efficiencies" we saw with BTC GPU to FPGA. I think GPU's are going to be around quite a while the high NRE of FPGA's and ASIC's are a pretty large barrier to entry right now all things considered. Although you may be able to get into an IPO or buy some LTC FPGA's in the coming months I still don't see them pushing GPU's out any time soon. https://forum.litecoin.net/index.php?topic=2702.0 |
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Can't help but laugh at bfl still trying to put on a brave face. Really once you've used avalon I'm not really sure why anyone would bother with bfl. Whether they can be trusted to produce is not really a question of interest when they can't produce when they say they will. Until they have that trust they will always be in the shadows of avalon.
How are those batch #3 Avalons coming along?  Quite well, some people are reporting 95GH/s from them. And the longer BFL takes to fill all backorders and the longer Avalon bulk chips are delayed the more profit B3 owners will reap, not to mention if KNC, HF, CT et all are delayed as well. |
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Here's the PSA that's been floating around If you have ordered from ButterFly Labs and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules). First ask ButterFly Labs for a refund, they will probably say no but you might get lucky. If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. Multiple customers have already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days. If you ordered via Bitcoin or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC at http://www.ftc.gov/complaint and they will advocate for you with ButterFly Labs to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises. You can also do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-formsThere are also several threads on how to get a refund from ButterFly Labs, here are two: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266945.0https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272585.0 |
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Thank you. If we do step away from requesting escrow; it will be only to start accepting orders once we actually do have products in stock and ready to be shipped out within 2/3 days like the other 99% businesses out there.
Most of the people here in Deadwood are not going to be able to understand this real world you speak of (99% of businesses) |
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I ordered a 5GH/s Miner on the 6th of May.
When I ordered I was assured it would be delivered by July.
And you actually believed them?? On August the 8th I asked for a refund and on August the 15th I was told this would not be possible. And you actually believe them?? LOL So can you please tell me, simply, when my order will finally ship and what possible reason there could be for orders taking so long? Would you still believe them even if they told you? I am tired of reading through pages and pages of abuse and conspiracy theories - can you simply answer my question? Put on your big boy pants and wait like a good little investomer! |
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What happened with Terrahash that they are receiving refund complaints?
Yifu happened to TH. |
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Do you see KNCminer, Avalon, Bitfury posting this kind of BS posts ? NO
They're PRO.
End of line
avalon is pro since when? Since they Build "some" ASIC and you, you can't even get to do your shoelaces  Give em hell there turbo!!! |
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I've been wondering this for a while.... Tens of millions of dollars in equipment will lose money if run in roughly a year (assuming price doesn't skyrocket).
So what happens with it? Will organizations, perhaps the Bitcoin Foundation, buy these units and keep the hashpower on the network for added security, running them at a slight loss, perhaps? Will they be repurposed somehow? Will they simply be thrown away? Will the current owners just keep mining?
While on the topic -- is running obsolete equipment a disservice (long-term) to Bitcoin by making newer, more effective ASICs less attractive? People talk about running their GPUs, FPGAs, and ASICs (in the future) for the sake of the network, but isn't that actually just making it less likely for people to buy or design/develop/manufacture new ASICs since the profit projection would be lower?
I don't see many folks turning off ASIC's in the next year. I think miners are bulls by nature and so most of us here seem to think price will increase (which obviously doesn't affect BTC ROI but that is a very different discussion). I think a lot of miners are hoping for an increase so they can stave off saturation point longer! Assuming no increase it's kind of hard to say what people will do. I think there are just too many factors on an individual level for there to be a real majority of people doing one thing. Factors like: "free" electricity, hobbyist (helping secure/decentralize network, willing to run at slight loss), capital investment of hardware, efficiency of hardware (130nm or 110nm Avalon vs 28nm everyone else), how much (if any) profit was made before "saturation point" is reached (when electrical cost for 1 BTC = 1 BTC mined). Because of the imperfect information system I can see us overshooting the mark (by how much I won't guess) and a lot of people will run these machines quite a while mining negligible amounts chasing their investment. |
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TerraHash took almost no risk, they gambled with the communities money, not their own. How much have they actually risked of their own funds? Did they take a small business loan? Just to clarify, there is a huge difference between investors and customers.
Almost all of the current ASIC manufactures have absolutely no clue what the legal difference between a customer and an investor is, what they have done is tried to create a new category called investomers. If things end up going south for one of them they will quickly learn the law has no definition for an investomer. |
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