GPU miners and last as LTC...could you or someone plz elaborate as to what these are...and how to mine? Sorry, this noob isn't familiar.
GPU miner is typically a build yourself rig Using AMD graphics cards (GPU's) as the source of computing power for mining. Buy the components (mobo, HD, CPU, Ram, graphics cards, PSU, OS etc) mash them all together in a milk crate or open air custom frame/case download a miner program set up a pool account and start mining. Unfortunately it really isn't economically sound right now to purchase and set up GPU rigs for BTC. What a lot of people are doing is shifting their GPU rigs or building new ones to mine alt coins (which are usually similar to BTC in that they are digital currencies but also differ in some ways). Litecoin (LTC) is the second largest coin and the largest alt coin currently (at least according to market cap). LTC uses a different algorithm than BTC and at present time no known FPGA or ASIC miners exist for LTC (although there are reports FPGA's are being designed for LTC). I built a GPU rig a few months ago and have been happily mining away LTC. I have traded some of the mined LTC for BTC through an exchange and have kept some LTC as a bit of a bullish bet on the coin itself! I wish my son was old enough to have helped me build my rig it would have been great father son time! The bonus for your son is if you spend a few extra bucks on some of the components, having a PC with a few GPU's would make a pretty sick gaming rig! You guys can game, learn/teach him how to build a computer from just the components, mine a digital currency and convert to BTC learning some trading practices along the way. You won't make millions but the rig should pay for itself eventually! |
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Would you be able to point out at what USD/BTC exchange rate it will net you more profit to mine say 60 BTC from a piece of hardware that cost 65 BTC to purchase than it would to just hold onto the 65 BTC?
The point you're missing is the fact there needs to be two chronologically separated exchange rates for this  So lets run some numbers. Lets also use some easy numbers and assume a 100 times increase in exchange rate from time of purchase to time of sale of coins, sound good? Scenario 1: Customer has (or buys) 65 BTC each valued at $1.00 USD each. This customer now places an order with a hardware manufacture and buys a xxx GH/s miner. He has invested 65 BTC at $1.00 each for an initial investment of $65.00 USD. Now when the miner is no longer profitable the total number of BTC the unit mined was 60 BTC but in the meantime BTC has increased in value 100 times and each coin is now worth $100.00 USD. You sell all the coins and have in hand $6000 USD wow, awesome solid investment right? Lets look at Scenario 2 to see how we would have faired just holding BTC Customer has (or buys) 65 BTC each valued at $65.00 USD, initial investment is now $65.00. At a certain time in the future (for arguments sake lets say the same amount of time it takes to mine 60 BTC with a miner you could have purchased) BTC increases in value 100 times and now is the time to sell. Customer sells all 65 BTC at $100.00 USD and has in hand now $6500 USD. Feel free to plug in any values (different, same, any old number at all it won't make a difference) for the exchange rate at the time of purchase and the time of sale. Two chronologically separated exchange rates doesn't change the maths involved at all unfortunately. In scenario 2, do you not want each BTC initially valued at $1? Ya simple typo, guess I was thinking faster than I was typing. Thanks for pointing it out, I have edited my post |
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Would you be able to point out at what USD/BTC exchange rate it will net you more profit to mine say 60 BTC from a piece of hardware that cost 65 BTC to purchase than it would to just hold onto the 65 BTC?
The point you're missing is the fact there needs to be two chronologically separated exchange rates for this So lets run some numbers. Lets also use some easy numbers and assume a 100 times increase in exchange rate from time of purchase to time of sale of coins, sound good? Scenario 1: Customer has (or buys) 65 BTC each valued at $1.00 USD each. This customer now places an order with a hardware manufacture and buys a xxx GH/s miner. He has invested 65 BTC at $1.00 each for an initial investment of $65.00 USD. Now when the miner is no longer profitable the total number of BTC the unit mined was 60 BTC but in the meantime BTC has increased in value 100 times and each coin is now worth $100.00 USD. You sell all the coins and have in hand $6000 USD wow, awesome solid investment right? Lets look at Scenario 2 to see how we would have faired just holding BTC Customer has (or buys) 65 BTC each valued at $1.00 USD, initial investment is now $65.00. At a certain time in the future (for arguments sake lets say the same amount of time it takes to mine 60 BTC with a miner you could have purchased) BTC increases in value 100 times and now is the time to sell. Customer sells all 65 BTC at $100.00 USD and has in hand now $6500 USD. Feel free to plug in any values (different, same, any old number at all it won't make a difference) for the exchange rate at the time of purchase and the time of sale. Two chronologically separated exchange rates doesn't change the maths involved at all unfortunately. |
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"You guys try so hard and fail at every attempt. Does it suck to be such failure, or is it just "normal" for you and you don't know any other method of operation? Do you lurch from one failure to another, wondering why the world is out to get you? I've always wondered what it's like to be bad at everything you do, unable to succeed at anything. It's actually pretty funny, keep it up!"
I'm not really into mining and haven't ordered anything from butterfly labs so I'm not really orientated to the situation. Did a butterfly labs employee just insult the bitcoin community and his own customers in the most venal terms possible? Or have I got the wrong idea?
Inaba is the COO, so ya he's an employee. Here's another gem of a quote from Inaba and how he/BFL feel about ALL BT Talk forum members. Here's what he thinks about forum members. ... This is why we no longer give a shit about this forum; Everyone here is monumental assholes, no matter how accommodating one tries to be.
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How can you miss ROI on a $2k unit...
I find the USD comparisons tiresome. It is a machine that was bought with BTC. It produces BTC. If they bought it for 65BTC (if the xchg rate ~23 at the time...seems right), they would want it to return 65+BTC. That is the ROI in question. Otherwise they could have just taken their USD and bought BTC directly with it and made a better return (of BTC). Now the trade-in folks are actually paying ~17BTC... and those guys still have a long wait before their ROI is in jeopardy. You are right in one way, but forgeting the main goal e.g. making money in $. Finally, all is about dollars and btc price exchange. Market fallow btc/$ exchange. So, usd comparasions are viable IMO. Would you be able to point out at what USD/BTC exchange rate it will net you more profit to mine say 60 BTC from a piece of hardware that cost 65 BTC to purchase than it would to just hold onto the 65 BTC? |
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Manfred has it laid out nicely for you.
Couple of additional little things. I advise adding some fuel stabilizer to the tank. Here in Canada unleaded fuel has a shelf life of around 3 months. Adding stabilizer will bring the shelf life up to around a year if you buy a good brand (check the label their not all the same). Second is the battery, as mentioned it should be disconnected and if it sits for 6 months or more it should be recharged. You can either do it yourself a couple of times over the year or you can get a battery charger. A trickle charger will work fine (just degrades battery life slightly) or a charger that checks the voltage and only charges when it reaches a certain low threshold, then shuts off when fully charged waiting for the next low threshold to start charging again. Lastly I guess depending on your area, concrete/asphalt offer a better place to sit on than say grass (least amount of radiant humidity from concrete/asphalt). It's actually probably not a big issue for a year but longer term storage on more "humid" type surfaces lead to more rust in unwanted locations.
In almost all parts of Canada Bikers and boaters (and other seasonal motor heads) "winterize" their toys annually. My boat sits for sometimes 8 months of the year (yup I'm an idiot because I used to pay for it for 12 months a year only to use it 4 LOL!!!). I've also had bikes before that I missed entire riding season just because time got away from me and before I knew it, it was time to store again!!
In any case you should never be afraid to store a bike, just do it right and she will treat nice in return when you are ready to ride again!
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My advice: get a refund and don't look back.
Agreed. I think the behind person is too greedy while they do slowly to keep us believing us Well, I asked BFL for a refund in Jan 2013. They ignored my request and now I lost almost everything. Thank you BFL! How do you get a refund when the vendor ignores your requests?! BFL is in clear violation of FTC regulations concerning the mail order rule. If you paid with paypal, call them up (even if outside the 45 day buyer protection window offered by PP) and explain the situation. If you paid with an alternate method the only recourse you have at this point is the FTC. Direct link to FTC compliant form: https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/FTC_Wizard.aspx?Lang=enWHERE TO GO FOR HELP For more information about the Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule, call the Federal Trade Commission toll-free: 1-877-FTC-HELP; write: Federal Trade Commission, Consumer Response Center, 600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Washington, DC 20580; or visit: www.ftc.gov. You also may want to contact relevant trade associations, such as the Direct Marketing Association. Contact the DMA’s Washington, DC office at: 202-955-5030; write: 1111 19th Street, N.W., Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20036-3603; or visit: www.the-dma.org. Your local U.S. Postal Service or consumer protection agency may offer additional assistance. State and local governments also may have requirements with which you must comply. You should consult appropriate state agencies for information about laws that affect your business. For More Information The FTC works for the consumer to prevent fraudulent, deceptive, and unfair business practices in the marketplace and to provide information to help consumers spot, stop, and avoid them. To file a complaint or to get free information on consumer issues, visit ftc.gov or call toll-free, 1-877-FTC-HELP (1-877-382-4357); TTY: 1-866-653-4261. The FTC enters consumer complaints into the Consumer Sentinel Network, a secure online database and investigative tool used by hundreds of civil and criminal law enforcement agencies in the U.S. and abroad. |
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The statement was that we did not refund preorders. We did. We are no longer taking pre-orders and we are not refunding orders that are currently in the queue, that's correct.
It was stated multiple times that all sales are final when you ordered. What part of that were you unable to understand? We can't be responsible for your lack of reading comprehension or ability to understand simple English sentences. Sorry for your reading disability, perhaps next time you should get someone to explain what terms and conditions mean to you before placing and order. Now put on your big boy pants and accept responsibility for your actions instead of whining to me why you are unable to function in normal society and you should be a special case.
I am in disbelief that this is the way a representative of any company speaks to its customers. Is manufacturing ASIC chips really that difficult we are willing to give our money away to these people? Welcome to Deadwood. Here's what he thinks about forum members. ... This is why we no longer give a shit about this forum; Everyone here is monumental assholes, no matter how accommodating one tries to be.
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The statement was that we did not refund preorders. We did. We are no longer taking pre-orders and we are not refunding orders that are currently in the queue, that's correct.
It was stated multiple times that all sales are final when you ordered. What part of that were you unable to understand? We can't be responsible for your lack of reading comprehension or ability to understand simple English sentences. Sorry for your reading disability, perhaps next time you should get someone to explain what terms and conditions mean to you before placing and order. Now put on your big boy pants and accept responsibility for your actions instead of whining to me why you are unable to function in normal society and you should be a special case.
Is it really that I'm the one with a learning disability? Right on your site, as of today 7/17/2013@1:59pm EST, your website's home page has a big "PRE-ORDER NOW" button plastered across it.  You sir, are a moron, and I couldn't thank you enough for your efforts here as every time you post, you simply make your true self known. You hide behind insults because you have no real information or facts, else you would be giving them. Instead you choose to throw around insults like a child. LIARS GONNA LIE!!! |
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All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries...
Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final." The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal. The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever. If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund. But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months. They never promised before a certain time frame. Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion. Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired. They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long. Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion. Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday. Dude... You and BFL may want us all to believe this but until a customers order physically ships it appears according to the FTC that the company must issue a prompt refund when the customer asks for a refund for ANY reason. Just because their ToS is against FTC regulations doesn't mean it's OK to break those regulations because you put it in your ToS LDO. (Bolded in mine) When You Must Cancel an Order You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when: •the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise; •the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date; •the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date; •the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to; •you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or •you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise. http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-ruleThe way I read this BFL is clearly in violation of the FTC mail and telephone order merchandise rule (punishable by the FTC suing them for up to $16,000 per incident). Your turn, please post some evidence of BFL's no refund policy being legitimate. Reading comprehension is my friend... I'd be happy to introduce you if you'd like to meet up. Item 1: any option to cancel: There is no option for canceling in the sales contract, it specifically states non refundable. An Option refers to a provision in the contract allowing... etc. Item 2: concerns company initiated action - does not apply. Item 3: concerns company initiated action - does not apply. Item 4: nobody consented to any sort of 'definite delay' - bfl ship time has always been "later" Item 5: doesn't apply since no definite deliver date ever established. Item 6: concerns company initiated action (aka rolling up) - does not apply. My advice to you would be - stop trying to invoke the ftc - you obviously don't understand enough about contract law to have any hope of interpreting their regulations. As K9 politely pointed out you couldn't be more wrong. Consumer protection laws are quite clear and quite old. Lets ignore for one second all your points except #4 & 5. By your own definition BFL has required customers to wait for an "indefinite" delay (of course if you read the rule you would know that you must provide a definitive delivery date and 2 months or more is not definitve therefore it would fall under the indefinite delay clause). One of the things REQUIRED by the company if the are asking for and receive an indefinite delay is the following. •a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship. According to the FTC BFL is breaking their requirements by not TELLING the customer they have the RIGHT cancel an order ANY time until you ship. There is no room for ambiguity with their statement. BFL MUST TELL the customer they have the right to cancel the order and when the order is cancelled they MUST refund. BFL is not only telling their customer the exact opposite of what the FTC tells them they must say but they are also doing the opposite of what is required by not providing the refund. Sir, my reading comprehension and understanding of consumer protection laws is OK, yours on the other hand?? IF this ends up with the FTC or the courts BFL doesn't have a leg to stand. Your inability to understand this does not change to facts as they are. |
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So buzzdave, just to double check, refunds are possible before units ship right?
Yes refunds are available. If we plan to change the 100% refund policy we would give everyone time to consider before dropping a bomb on you. Wonderful, it is reassuring to know that if you decide to break FTC regulations you will let everyone know before doing so. Your response left me feeling a little uneasy. |
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You know you have to wait till your place in line comes up, no? And that you agreed to that, and at the pop-up which you had to click to maintain or cancel your order because changed power usage you chose "agree", like you agreed to the "no more refunds once we start delivering?"  I really really hope BFL tries to use this defense, because it will make it that much easier LOL. |
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34 german customers gave me their identity and order IDs so far. None of them did receive any unit from BFL.
LOL perhaps one of the units reportedly seized by German customs was for one of those customers? |
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You using a sock puppet to shill bid that one too? |
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You guys try so hard and fail at every attempt. Does it suck to be such failure, or is it just "normal" for you and you don't know any other method of operation? Do you lurch from one failure to another, wondering why the world is out to get you? I've always wondered what it's like to be bad at everything you do, unable to succeed at anything. It's actually pretty funny, keep it up!
heh..hehehehehehehe.ahahahahhahahaa...ahahhahahahahahahah I have the feeling there is an entire year worth of customers waiting for a product that may feel similarly. ps: i havent been following closely, but is 'Inaba' actually a BFL employee? I keep hearing so, but trolls be trollin'  |
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Made a couple of phone calls this morning. I was informed about this website and told that they would likely be very interested in hearing about BF Labs story. Don't be shy fellows, they accept third party submissions. Let the IC3 determine if no refunds is legal or not... http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx |
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BFL are scammers. I thought that was clear already?
At of all the missteps that BFL has done in the past, categorically enforcing their "All sales are final!" policy is probably their worst... Camp BFL and their investors are so screwed. Mark my words. It's also the weirdest IMO, unless of course BFL is running out of money then it is the only chance they have. CEO is a convicted felon and the company seems to be pissing in the face of the FTC MAIL ORDER RULE LOL (oh the sweet fucking irony for Sonny). I would not be surprised one bit to see the FTC descend on BFL like a swarm of locust!!!!!! Crazy way out in left field, never in a million years could this happen (certainly not accusing anyone) but just what if: No more refunds, delivery appears to have slowed down to a trickle, bulk chip sales 50% up front, good possibility of a run on the bank very soon, possible FTC problems... I wonder if anyone over there is making some travel arrangements. |
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Josh: "Then stop asking for updates, it's that simple. If you want updates and estimates, then they will tend to be modified as time goes on. If you want 100% accurate information, then wait. There's no other option." Josh: "So I'm curious how you know how many orders we ship per day?" User: "How about you just tell us?" Josh: "Because it causes more problems than it solves, so that's not going to happen either." https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3703-josh-its-time-update-bfl-asic-status-4.html#post45944This is getting pretty absurd. The huge "defense" of BFL that I constantly keep seeing from their fan boy army is that "no one has a right to other customer's information and what BFL is shipping." What does that have to do with numbers of how many get shipped on X day? His comments to me can only mean that very little to no shipping is happening and they have no clue when mass shipping will start. If they were shipping 50, 100, 200, 400 units a days BFL would be very vocal about it IMO and likely our friendly neighbourhood douche bag would be in here calling people cunts to drum up more orders. |
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I just wanted to say that CC and PP buyer protection have limits (as pointed out) but CC companies differ in the length of time they offer buyer protection so it's always best to check with the issuing company on exactly how long they actually cover. Even if someone happened to be outside both CC and PP buyer protection limits (or if they chose a different payment method) if BFL is breaking FTC regulations (which my personal opinion says they are) a consumer can still file a complaint with the FTC. Granted it won't get your fiat back right away but you still have recourse. Even if someone charged back and got their refund there is still nothing stopping them from filing a complaint with the FTC just to let them know about BF Labs (if you believe they broke FTC regulations why not let them know what BFL did to you). Even if your not American BF Labs is and I guess the FTC still wants to hear about it. FYI Direct link to FTC compliant form: https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/FTC_Wizard.aspx?Lang=enMore information from the link above: WHERE TO GO FOR HELP For more information about the Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule, call the Federal Trade Commission toll-free: 1-877-FTC-HELP; write: Federal Trade Commission, Consumer Response Center, 600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Washington, DC 20580; or visit: www.ftc.gov. You also may want to contact relevant trade associations, such as the Direct Marketing Association. Contact the DMA’s Washington, DC office at: 202-955-5030; write: 1111 19th Street, N.W., Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20036-3603; or visit: www.the-dma.org. Your local U.S. Postal Service or consumer protection agency may offer additional assistance. State and local governments also may have requirements with which you must comply. You should consult appropriate state agencies for information about laws that affect your business. For More Information The FTC works for the consumer to prevent fraudulent, deceptive, and unfair business practices in the marketplace and to provide information to help consumers spot, stop, and avoid them. To file a complaint or to get free information on consumer issues, visit ftc.gov or call toll-free, 1-877-FTC-HELP (1-877-382-4357); TTY: 1-866-653-4261. The FTC enters consumer complaints into the Consumer Sentinel Network, a secure online database and investigative tool used by hundreds of civil and criminal law enforcement agencies in the U.S. and abroad. |
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