This Space X post deserved an autonomous thread.

SpaceX and the prospects of Mars colonization.


1) Current unfeasibility of Mars massive colonization.

The goal of 1 million inhabitants on Mars in 50 years is unfeasible (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/06/21/elon-musk-create-city-mars-million-inhabitants/)

With the Big Falcon Rocket (BFR), at 100 passengers per flight, this would require 10,000 flights only to transport the people.

But the material support is about 10 times more demanding. So, as Elon Musk recognizes, the system would require 110,000 flights (see https://aeon.co/essays/elon-musk-puts-his-case-for-a-multi-planet-civilisation; see his 2017 presentation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4FY894HyF8).

Even at one flight a day, it would take 301 years. But since this is impossible, because one has to wait for the window every 26 months, when Mars is closer to Earth, transporting all these people would take hundreds of spacecrafts. This is completely beyond the normal resources of any company or country.

To finance the passengers flights, he would need to find 1 million people willing to pay 200,000 USDs to go live permanently on hell.

When he says that the goal is to make the price of the voyage similar to the price of a normal house, he suggest that people would sell their houses to buy the ticket.

I wonder how expensive would be a house in Mars! Is SpaceX going to build and offer a house to every colonist? Because if they are going to spend their savings and the value of their Earth house paying for the voyage, they won't have much left to buy a house there.

What about the standard of life on Mars? Things probably would be very expensive during the first decades, since most of the complex goods will be imported from Earth.

A fantasy company managed to enlist 200,000 people willing to go to Mars. I wonder how many of them had 200,0000 usds and were willing to spend them on the ticket.

So, probably, only the poor would be ready to try their luck, looking for well paid jobs on Mars. But they won't have 200,000 USDs.

Musk might find 1 million people willing to go and work there for very good jobs, but someone else would have to pay for the trip and pay them their wages.

Selling tourism trips won't pay the voyages either. I doubt he will be able to find many groups of 20 people willing to pay 1 million bucks to pay the ticket of the other 80 (he can make first and second class seats) for at least 2 years to go and return from hell, especially after the trip became more common.

It wouldn't be like a month on the Moon or on a tourist space station. With time to wait for the shortest return, it would be about spending more than two years on a living hell.

There isn't many people eager to go live on Antarctica, the most similar place on Earth.

And let's not forget about the complimentary radiation.

On Earth, on average, we get 1 millisievert (mSv) of radiation per year.

On a round trip to Mars, of about 1 year, one will receive 700 mSv!

But one has to add more 200 mSv per year for a person living in Mars.

So, with current technology, a 2 year adventure to Mars would give about 900 mSv to the tourist. Well, 1000 mSv (or 1 sievert) implies a 5% increase in chance to get cancer.

Moreover, radiation has neurological consequences since it attacks the neurons.

For someone living on Mars during several years without proper permanent protection the odds would be nasty.
 
Let's not forget about the damages that the about 1 year round trip to mars would create on health because of the 0 gravity on the Big Falcon Rocket (BFR).

According to the plans published, there won't be any artificial gravity on BFR.

1 year of 0 gravity can make someone lose between 12 and 18% of bone mass. And exercise can't avoid this consequence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaceflight_osteopenia).

Furthermore, "astronauts experience up to a 20 percent loss of muscle mass on spaceflights lasting five to 11 days" (https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/64249main_ffs_factsheets_hbp_atrophy.pdf).  Daily exercise can mitigate some of the consequences on the muscle mass, but not all.

Even Mars gravity of 38% of Earths one will be very damaging to anyone living there for a few years.

Therefore, unless there are on Mars very valuable resources, that would pay for the trips (people and resources going to Mars and resources coming back to Earth), with current technology of space flight, Mars will be dependent on Earth, with a few thousand or, probably, hundreds, of inhabitants.

We'll be a two planets species, but the second planet will end badly if the first planet ends badly too. Only with new technology on flight, Mars will be able to be independent.

The goal of making humankind a dual planet species is very worthy from the perspective of ensuring that we can endure millions of years more.

But normal people, who care first about how to pay their bills, just do what is practical to this goal and hope for the best. They won't ruin their life to go to Mars and ensure some of us will survive on the remote case that a catastrophe strikes Earth.

If massive colonization of Mars isn't economically feasible, it won't happen.


2) SpaceX deserves credit about its capacity to go to Mars.

 

Anyway, make no mistake, even if its plans to colonize Mars seem too optimistic, SpaceX already showed that it can make the trip to Mars.

 

Musk seems like an obsessive person. He won’t rest until he takes humans there.

 

They have been paid by NASA to send and return cargo to the International Space Station with excellent results.

 

After some delays, they launched successfully their Falcon Heavy, probably will start sending NASA astronauts to the International Space Station on 2018 (or perhaps 2019) and are promising an unmanned first trip to Mars on 2020 (initially was planned to 2018).

 

Of course, if some of NASA's astronauts ends up killed on a disaster, we can expect another delay of many years.

 

Don't mix Space X with all those dreamers, without a penny, that have big imaginary or fake plans.
 

If Space X is able to send humans to Mars sooner than NASA (Space X is saying 2025, but this recent delay of the first unmanned confirmed that this date is unfeasible), even if with NASA cooperation (if NASA figures out that Musk is really going to make it, they will jump on board), Musk will have his deserved place in History, side by side with Von Braun and Korolev (don’t compare Gagarin or Armstrong with them, beside courage, they had little merit: many people could have been in their place; is like comparing Colombus with one of his sailors).



3) Why go to Mars?

 

It will be fantastic to humankind in terms of pride and self-esteem to go to Mars and build a permanent station there for investigation and some scarce tourism, but we won't have more than that until we find economic reason to do more.

 

Some would say, hell, are we going to spend billions just for pride and self-esteem ("fun"), when we could use this money to eradicate poverty and cure diseases?

 

Well, we spend much more (trillions) just for fun on millions of things.

 

Just think about how much we spend making movies. Many are now costing more than 300 millions. The Martian had a budget of 108 million.

 

Mars Semi-direct, a revised low budget human trip to Mars, would cost 55 billion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Direct#Mars_Semi-Direct).

 

But Elon Musk says he can build the Mars rocket for 10 billion (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/science/elon-musk-spacex-mars-exploration.html?_r=0). But let’s put the price of the trip at 20 billion (probably, it will cost more, but let’s accept this number).

 

That is the price of 66 movies of 300 millions each. Isn’t worthy? I bet we have spent much more than 20 billion making science fiction movies.

 

As we seen, the goal about making us a real multiplanetary species is still science and economical fiction, so we are not going there for this (valuable) reason.

 

We can say that for humans to have a future, it must be in space, because the sun is going to burn almost all life on Earth on 1 or 2 billion years.

 

But that is so far in the future that our chances to go extinct for any other reason are much higher and we have plenty of time to improve our technology.

 

Shore, the trip and the creation of a Mars’ base will improve our technology and might allow some scientific discoveries.

 

But we don’t want to go there because of these reasons.

 

We would press to go even if there weren’t any technological advances.

 

Moreover, the rovers are doing a good job confirming that, probably, there isn’t life there.

 

We do many costly things for non practical reasons.

 

In the end, economics is an instrument for our real goals and these are purely psychological.

 

For instance, we want to earn money not for the money on it self, but also to feel some positive emotions, including security, independence, freedom to do what we want, etc, and not just for the goods we can buy.

 

On the sixties of the last century, the USA and the Soviet Union spent billions on the race to the Moon just trying to show the world what was the best political system.

 

Musk argues with the idea of converting us on a two planets species to rationalize his quest, but he won't see it on his lifetime (unless he starts investing a lot on anti-aging investigation) or there is a major breakthrough on space flight technology.

 

He adds that the real goal is to do inspiring things. He also means historical things. He is chasing his place in History, trying to reach out immortality.

 

And I have nothing to say against that. It is people like him who took us from our stone age caves, since most of us haven't done and won't do anything really important during all our life.

 

We want to go to Mars because it would make us proud to be humans like nothing else. And this is why we are going there sooner than to any asteroid, even if it had valuable minerals.

 

No doubt, if we waited 50 years more, we could go for much less money and lesser risks, but why give the glory to our sons and grandsons?

 

Since our fathers and grandfathers wasted their opportunity, let's take it ourselves.

 

The way I use the word "we" and "us", even if I won't have any role on the voyage, is similar to the way people talk about sport successes: they never say their club or country won, they say "we won".

 

It's this individual/collective appropriation of the successes of other people that give so much psychological importance to events that in reality are practically irrelevant to our life (at least on the short run), like going to Mars.

 

It will be if all of us had a role on this historical success for Humankind.

 

Let’s go to Mars for psychological reasons, because life is all about this.

 

We will have time to go again and make it our second home, for more practical reasons.

I have a darker vision of a possible future with super AIs:


1) They'll be mostly code infecting all of our computers on ways impossible to detect and eradicate. They might create a wireless network able to connect even computers and drives (including pens) off the Internet.

Forget about robots, most of them will be just a genial virus (much more intelligent than us) in your PC waiting for the opportunity to take control.

2) They won't have a central authority, but instead will form a chaotic society, probably in constant warfare between themselves.

3) They might wipe us all out or ignore us as irrelevant while fighting for survival against their real enemies: each other. Other AIs will be seen as the real threat, not us, the walking monkeys.

On any case, possible we will end up extinct on the AIs' wars.

4) The most tyrannical dictator never wanted to kill all human beings, but their enemies and discriminated groups. Well, AIs won't have any of these restraints developed by evolution during millions of years (our human inclination to be social and live in communities and our fraternity towards other members of the community) towards us or even towards themselves.

5) Fermi's paradox questions why SETI haven't find any evidence of extraterrestrial technological advanced species if there are trillions of stars and planets.

Possible, they followed the same pattern we are fowling: technological advances allowed them to create super AIs and they ended up extinct. Then, the AIs destroyed themselves fighting each other leaving no one to communicate with us.

Of course, I don't have a clue if this is going to happen. But the mere possibility that this might be our future makes me very negative on the development of super AIs and the singularity.

It seems that the halving is having the expected effect: high increases of bitcoin price.

This can indeed make bitcoin more popular, but not mainstream.

Only major crisis, with high inflation affecting even hard currencies, could make bitcoin mainstream.

Anyway, if price keeps going up and up, the Chinese government might start being nervous and adopt more repressive measures.

A few threatening words from them and bitcoin would crash like a stone, like it did in the past.

 

Space X and the prospects of Mars colonization.

The goal of 1 million inhabitants on Mars is unfeasible. With the Mars Colonial Transporter, at 100 passengers per flight, this would require 10,000 flights only to transport the people.

But the material support is about 10 times more demanding. So, as Elon Musk recognizes, the system would require 110,000 flights (see https://aeon.co/essays/elon-musk-puts-his-case-for-a-multi-planet-civilisation; see his recent presentation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10gECHeMSds).

Even at one flight a day, it would take 301 years. And to be able to make a flight a day, taking in account that the voyage to go and return would take much more than 1 year (during times when Mars is more far away, it would be much longer), he would need 425 reusable spacecrafts. That is beyond the normal resources of any company or country.

To finance the passengers flights, he would need to find 1 million people willing to pay  200,000 USDs to go live permanently on hell. Only the poor would be ready to try their luck, looking for well paid jobs on hell. But they won't have 200,000 USDs.

Musk might find 1 million people willing to go and work there for very good jobs, but someone else would have to pay for the trip.

Selling tourism trips won't pay the voyages either. I doubt he will be able to find 20 people willing to pay 1 million bucks to pay the ticket of the other 80 for at least 14 months to go and return to hell, especially after the trip became more common.

It wouldn't be like a month on the Moon or on a tourist space station. With time to wait for the shortest return, it would be about spending more than two years on a living hell.

I don’t see many people eager to go live on Antarctica, the most similar place on Earth.

Therefore, unless there are on Mars very rich minerals, or other very valuable resources, that would pay for the trips (people and resources going to Mars and minerals coming back to Earth), with current technology of space flight, Mars will be dependent on Earth, with a few thousand or, probably, hundreds, of inhabitants.

We'll be a two planets species, but the second planet will end badly if the first planet ends badly too. Only with new technology on flight and energy, Mars will be able to be independent.
Even at 24 flights a year, 110,000 flights would take 4583 years.

The goal of making humankind a dual planet species is very worthy from the perspective of ensuring that we can endure millions of years more.

But normal people, who care first about how to pay their bills, just do what is practical to this goal and hope for the best. They won't ruin their life to go to Mars and ensure some of us will survive on the remote case that a catastrophe strikes Earth.

If massive colonization of Mars isn't economically feasible, it won't happen.

It will be fantastic to humankind in terms of pride and self-esteem to go to Mars and build a permanent station there for investigation and some scarce tourism, but we won't have more than that until we find economic reason to do more.

If Space X is able to send humans to Mars sooner than NASA, even if with NASA cooperation (if NASA figures out that Musk is really going to make it, they will jump on board), Musk will have his deserved place in History, side by side with Von Braun and Korolev (forget about Armstrong, beside courage, he had little merit).

This absolute lack of control, total dependency, a situation like we have never been since we discover how to use fire, is my main source of concern.

Any comment is welcome.

However, I don't think you mean that when Yahweh ordered (read a priest said god ordered something in order to justify horrible acts from the ancient Hebrews) the extermination of women and children (Joshua 6:21; Judges 21:10; Numbers 31:7-18), killing of babies (Isaiah 13:16) or massive rape (Numbers 31:18; Deuteronomy 20:10-14) these acts could be justified by the context...

No one dares to try to argue that today in a moral debate.

You find me an instance of a person without neocortex able to reasoning.

The burden of proof about any other life but this one is on you. Taking in account the evidences, my statement that this life is the only one we have seems pretty obvious.

I prefer this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17WiQ_tNld4

One of the main conclusions on the OP is that the burden of showing evidence is on the believers side.

Well, reasonable believers are the first to recognize that believing is a matter of faith, not of evidence or science.

So, they believe in god, like anyone of us can believe that he is immortal: out of will to believe or out of fear.

Others might have this power over you: making you believe in invisible things just because they believe on them.

 It seems that the optimists are still winning this poll.

Business as usual.

Why worry, any real problem is still 10 years away, at least 

No argument from me on that. But we are just clones of ourselves and that is a subject worth thinking about.

Yes, bitcoin would survive.

But a general ban would make its price drop like a stone, ruining most bitcoiners.

Its a pain to invest on an asset that can drop 70% on three words of the chinese government.

Of course, the chinese government only fears to lose its power. As long as bitcoin isn't a menace to social peace, it won't bother.

But if bitcoin starts going up too much, the chinese government will start being nervous, because it will think on the consequences of the crash that always comes after a boom on the price.

I bet you took that idea of limited free will out of nothing.

Actually, you are risking your "eternal soul".

By stating that we have limited free will about our faith you are implying god doesn't know what we are going to do about believing him or not.

Because if he knew we were going to believe him or not, we wouldn't have free will on this subject. We would be determined on our actions.

So, you are saying god isn't omniscient. He doesn't know everything.

It might be wise to remove your post, because it's evidence that you are a free thinker.

On other words: that you are an heretic that will (according to main churches) burn in hell.

Of course, god knows (according to you, almost) everything, so he already knows you are a heretic and, therefore, you are already so very much nailed...

Perhaps, if you repent, remove your post and pray 100 our fathers he will forgive you.

Watson, the AI from IBM I already wrote about on this thread, is already discovering things we couldn't alone:

www.ibm.com/watson/watson-oncology.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-32607688
https://www.research.ibm.com/articles/genomics.shtml

And Watson is dumb as an old bat.

Give it (I'm still writing it, but in due time it will be a he) 10 years more and you shall see.

I think my believes and hopes are stated clearly on the text.

I have hopes on the success of the European Union project.

I just can't see the political and economic conditions for that.

Italy owes 2,228,741 million USD, 132% of its GDP (http://countryeconomy.com/national-debt/italy) and, as was recalled on this thread, most of this debt in insured by credit default swaps and other derivatives.

And, like all European countries, its already losing active population, because of disastrous birth rates.

When debt doesn't stop growing, the GDP is more or less on a stagnated level for 15 years, active population is decreasing, there is a growing number of old people (with higher health and social security expenses)  and there is no inflation, of course this is going to explode. Soon or later.

Its banking crisis is only aggravating this.

When Italy had to pay on an auction 8% for borrow money for 10  years on 2009 or 2010, the Euro was on the brick of disaster.

It was a miracle that the euro system survived.

There won't be enough money to save Italy, if it loses access to the lending market.

The only think supporting this is the ECB and its quantitative easing policy and zero interest rates.

If inflation goes up to 2% because of oil prices or a dump of the euro (imported inflation, caused by the increase of imported foreign goods), the ECB will have to stop this quantitative easing policy.

So, Italy will need to give an hard haircut on their lenders, like Greece.

That will spread to other high indebted countries, like Spain.

Banks, which are the main lenders, will go bankrupt or will need more help...

The only way to help them would be to "print" money. But that can't be done on the euro system. Several countries might need to leave the euro.

Yes, Draghi will again try to save everything and, probably, he will be successful for some more time, but...

I have big hopes he could solve the problem, but I have my doubts.

Anyway, it wouldn't be the end of civilization as we know it. Far from that.

We still have a lot of scientific progress going on, we will handle this.

But it might end up the European project as a political union.

This one is amusing.

The Pope's and the Buddhist's hats aren't even little, but are completely ridiculous.

I wonder if sometimes they even look at a mirror before going out.

Secularism has been the father of tolerance with the division between government and religion.

Free thinkers, skeptics, agnostics and atheists were the main fathers of secularism.

They have been the major defenders of tolerance.

Believers have all the right to believe on whatever they want, as long as they don't try to kill, persecute, discriminate or coercively change the life of atheists.

Europeans fear Russia and themselves (mainly Germany) too much to live without the US to defend them.

Actually, the story of the XX century is the story of the Europeans whining for help from the US on all major situations.

Now that the Europeans got that, they won't let go.

Free will is incompatible with the omniscience of god.

If he knows the future, he knows what we are going to do and, therefore, everything we do is already determined.

Determined by god, since he created (allegedly) us exactly as we are and determined to do what he knew we would do.