so are you going to keep this open to order several more TH from xcrowd and cointerra?
if so I'd put more coin here rather than joining another group buy
I opened up a topic of discussion for this exact issue on our forums. I am going to read the feedback from current investors and then decide on a plan. As of now the exact plan is not known, so please submit your opinion on our forums so that I can accurately judge the group's majority opinion. |
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Sorry but your analogy doesn't really hold: The reason Litecoin took off, is, as you pointed out, people could use former-bitcoin-hardware to mine them, while the bitcoin mining ASIC's couldn't be used. 2nd generation ASICs, on the other hand, can mine sha256 alt-coins just as well as 1st gen, so there's no reason to expect people with 2nd gen's not to mine them if they are more profitable at the time than Bitcoin. Thus those with 1st gen ASICs will have no advantage at mining anything, and will basically have fancy paperweights.
I get what you are saying, and perhaps for the reasons you mentioned, this will not have as substantial affect on SHA256 ALT coins as GPUs had for Litecoin. You make a good point that they will have to compete with gen2 ASICs and will never be as efficient or powerful as them. Whereas, Bitcoin ASICs can't be used to mine Litecoin so it is a bit of a safe haven for them for now, but Bitcoin ASICs gen2 can do everything gen1 could do. I agree those situations are completely different and perhaps I overstated the effect that unprofitable ASICs will have on SHA256 ALTS for this reason. However, I'm not convinced that everyone will just throw their equipment in the trash after it is unprofitable. You think the people that are left with the fancy paper weights are just going to admit defeat and throw their ASICs in the trash? I think that they will look for some way to use these machines, and this use will be mining SHA256 ALTs. Sure, there will not be as much profit in it as mining Bitcoins, but there will be a small profit there. Also, if the influx of new users has the same effect on SHA256 ALT's prices, then there could be a huge potential profit. |
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I would like to preface this with the fact that I was one of the few people that saw the potential in Litecoin back in 2012. When everyone was busy selling their old GPUs and mining hardware due to the upcoming Bitcoin reward halving, I was instead busy buying the cheap hardware to mine Litecoins. Unfortunately, I went through some hard times late 2012 and early 2013, where I was unemployed and had to live off of my stash of crypto coins. Otherwise, I would be a millionaire right now (I was mining 500-1000+ LTC/day back then.) I kind of look at the Litecoin boat as having already passed. I still think it is a good investment, but it will not provide you the crazy returns that investing into Litecoin at $0.10 would have brought considering the current value is $2.34. My original line of thinking when speculating on Litecoin was that soon GPU mining was going to become unprofitable on Bitcoin and there would be many new people switching over to Litecoin. New miners means the network is more secure, it adds people into the Litecoin economy, and provides more people that would want to see/help Litecoin be further developed (due to their new ownership of some Litecoins.) Thus, increasing the value of Litecoin (or speculated value), because of these factors and probably many more that I can't think of off the top of my head... any benefit of adding new people to the community could bring. I see this same situation forming in Bitcoinland again and I expect the result to play out similarly, although there are a couple differences this time. The Bitcoin network difficulty is going up so fast so quick, that soon ASICs made on larger process nodes (60-100+nm) will become unprofitable in 2014 due to the amount of power they consume versus ASICs built on smaller process nodes (<60nm). This will leave many Bitcoin ASIC owners owning a paper weight. ASICs can only do what they are made to do, spit out SHA256 hashes- there is no other use for these ASICs. Just like the GPU miners making lemonade out of lemons by mining Scrypt coins once their GPUs were unprofitable on Bitcoin, large process node ASIC users will do the same with SHA256 ALT coins. This large influx of new miners and users of SHA256 ALT coins will have a similar affect to what the new GPU miners did for Litecoin. Keep in mind most of this post is speculation. I'm not sure which SHA256 coin is going to win the lottery, if any of them out of the ones that currently exist. Perhaps there will be a new one that comes out inbetween now and then that actually has some innovation and advantages to Bitcoin. All I am saying is the next coin to be entering massive hyper adoption will be a SHA256 coin, mark my words. Thoughts/opinions welcome. Tell me I'm wrong, tell me I'm right. I love to speculate and discuss potential life changing investment strategies. I'm not in this to make chump change.. I want to buy an island after I cash out all my coins, not just a fancy dinner.  |
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No if they are delayed because they lied about being able to raise funds, and secure fabrication at TSMC before October/November as promised, then as a customer when it dawns on me that a rocket run wasn't even feasible, I'd want my funds back in their entirey. Giving me an extra chip instead of the freedom of my own choice means nothing to me in the scheme of things. There is a reason they only give you a two week window to refund in January, and not before. There's a reason they keep refusing Paypal as a payment option when you would know inside of Paypal's 45 day protection plan whether Hashfast were capable of delivering as originally
promised in October.
Right... and if KNC is unable to deliver, they will have enough funds to refund everyone 100%?  Maybe your credit card company/Paypal will bail you out, but there are plenty of people that have ordered with Bitcoin through KNC (including myself) and would be screwed in a similar circumstance. Also, they wouldn't get free extra chips for the "inconvenience" either... |
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Also...
HashFast/xCrowd are offering a "Miner protection plan" of some sort. (If difficulty goes up so high that you can't ROI, they will provide extra chips for free... something along those lines.)
I'm a bit weary to order from a company that doesn't also provide this, because if they delay then you're out of luck.
I feel like a "Miner Protection Plan" is needed for any new start ups to be taken seriously.
Hashfast offer raw chips, but you have to pay for associated parts, assembly and shipping. Plus you'd presumably have to wait for such additionally hashing power to be made for you. This all negates any miner protection. Furthermore they guarantee refunds out of what, the pool of monies they have spent on development and wages? No third party assuming liability, no real protection. X-Crowd offer protection on a global network of sub 350million in difficulty. By the time they deliver it will be beyond 350 million in difficulty, therefore such protection is also negated. It's just marketing. You either fall for it, or you don't. Cointerra looked promising as they promised to accept a secured payment with potential third party assuming liability to really protect their customers funds, but at this pricepoint there is no way they could have even genuinely considered Paypal as a payment choice. I understand that the extra hashing power is only provided in chips (not assembled), but it is better than the NOTHING you would get from the other manufacturers if they are delayed and you won't make ROI, is it not? Obviously xCrowd's miner protection plan of difficulty <350 million is not really a miner protection plan. I did not know they had placed such a limit on the difficulty. HOWEVER, they also are offering escrow so I fail to see how a gap in their miner protection plan is really that big of a deal. HashFast's miner protection plan seems decent. In one case you are just screwed if they delay (KNC), and in the other case you can pay a little more to get the chips assembled and still make ROI (HashFast). I fail to see how not offering a miner protection plan is better than offering one... Try looking at the situation without your KNC is the only legit answer goggles on... |
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Interesting thing about Xcrowd is 1- refund policy, 2- funds held by John K, 3- price drop if diff too high by ship date.
I think the best options as of right now are: xCrowd (good prices, escrow, and miner protection plan) HashFast (decent prices and miner protection plan) Then there is option #3 to wait for Avalon generation 2, which will be a no preorder- immediate delivery option in October/November. I think it would be hard to get burned with this option and I am leaning toward it, however xCrowd/HashFast miner protection plans also make it to where it would be hard to get burned unless they were an outright scam. I started a thread in our forums to discuss these 3 options, please post your opinions. Thanks! |
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Also...
HashFast/xCrowd are offering a "Miner protection plan" of some sort. (If difficulty goes up so high that you can't ROI, they will provide extra chips for free... something along those lines.)
I'm a bit weary to order from a company that doesn't also provide this, because if they delay then you're out of luck.
I feel like a "Miner Protection Plan" is needed for any new start ups to be taken seriously.
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They don't even accept Bitcoin..... lol Only bank transfers.... |
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I mostly agree with everyone else.
I was looking forward to this announcement, especially since they've been saying it will be the cheapest option, but it's kind of meh after running the numbers.
I can't expect they'll get much business at these prices, but it is what it is. It's hard for me to suggest Cointerra over BFL at this point considering BFL has actually released products before and both are about the same price. Sure, BFL has been a clusterfuck, but I would hope they have learned from their mistakes.
If they didn't learn from FPGA, I don't think they will ever learn. The best option is still KNC. KNC at current prices won't ROI either.. |
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I mostly agree with everyone else.
I was looking forward to this announcement, especially since they've been saying it will be the cheapest option, but it's kind of meh after running the numbers.
I can't expect they'll get much business at these prices, but it is what it is. It's hard for me to suggest Cointerra over BFL at this point considering BFL has actually released products before and both are about the same price. Sure, BFL has been a clusterfuck, but I would hope they have learned from their mistakes.
These ASIC companies need to leave some meat on the bone for their customers or there will be no customers.
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Today, Cointerra announced their first product: a 2 TH/s ASIC bitcoin miner retailing for $15,750, with a forecast shipping date in December.
Can we believe them, so far our combined order of all the units is just over 2 th and we've spent over $40k collectively however this is $16k, a part of me wants to believe it yet another part is telling me that this seems a bit too good to be true.
I haven't had a chance to look over CoinTerra's offering yet. I will likely do that in a few moments. At this point I am suggesting we go with whatever is cheaper. Whether that be HashFast/BFL/Cointerra/xCrowd.. I'm not really sure at the moment. Please discuss the options on our forums. |
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Hi
Just Sent 5 BTC
Transaction ID: edfd686099431574c8e3b8e18c698801109965573ae002f8edb4bee740937383-000
Thanks
I got ya both. Thanks. |
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So is this group buy still open to newcomers? I'd be interested to pitch in. Although I won't be able to transfer money until I get home later today.
Yep, sill open. CH,
Where do we stand as far as power and cooling? Is this about the limit of miners you are considering?
I am going to send a bit more if you are going to invest in more miners.
DBA
We have about 3000 watts of equipment ordered, I am placing the limit at 5000 watts. So.. definitely still some room available. |
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Set it on fire and watch it burn. |
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Will you do a 2 mobo combos and a 5970 for 4 BTC shipped? ohh and toss in 1 powered riser?
If you're in the USA, sure. |
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I supposed I do WTB, but I'm also just looking to see what the prices are. Basically, a small script rig that can do maybe 1/2 to 1 mhash. Prices + shipping (international)? If you have rigs that can do less, like even as low as 100 khash, still place a price I could get something like this together out of parts I have for sale. See my thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=276475.0You would need the following from that thread: 1 GPU 1 Mobo/CPU/Mem Combo 1 PSU I don't have any cases, this would be an open air rig. Take a look at the options I have available and let me know if you're interested. You can mix and match parts to make as slow (300Kh) or however fast (2500Kh+) a rig as you would want. |
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The thing that made me laugh the most (I laughed several time while reading their sales pitch for Monarch) was the GigaVPS quote / Avatar. |
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Jesus, The ASIC wars are just beginning, it's going to get nasty, real nasty! Who can do it cheaper and faster? It's going to be really interesting because they have to do that somehow without pissing off their original customers, whom have paid more. I think we'll see Cointerra and xCrowd come in a few days/weeks with an even better Gh/$ device. Just insanity. Buy 80 Gh for 100 BTC in April 2013. Buy 600 Gh for 60 BTC in August 2013.  |
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