Litecoiners in full force tonight!

Give me 10-15 to get back to you Smoothie.

I conceded earlier that Litecoin is the most secure Scrypt coin, and admittedly I haven't had time to keep up with the Litecoin network hash rate as I have been moving, so I will assume that you are correct that Litecoin's SCRYPT hashrate is bigger than all other Scrypt coins combined.

The problem is that argument is invalid as to a reason why it should be chosen as an investment above one that can't be mined at all (any purely PoS variant.) Furthermore, both Bitcoiners and Litecoins mostly ignore the fact of all the wasted electricity and computing power that is being consumed/wasted by PoW and fail to see the importance of PoS-like schemes and scientific coins such as Primecoin. One solves the electricity problem and the other solves the waste of processing power. They both solve a problem, all Litecoin does is speed up the block time and increase coin numbers which can also be done on a coin that solves a problem such as the examples AKA. innovative.

I'm not saying that finding Prime numbers is going to change the world, but if one useful thing was developed I am hopeful that someone will find a way to figure out something that will. Also, it is debatable which form of PoS is the best and it is still not an exact science yet, I feel like the answer is close if not here already. It's hard to keep up with all the tweaks to PoS people have done. Again, both of these are innovative and solve problems, meanwhile all Litecoin does is speed up the block time and increase coin numbers which can also be done on a coin that solves a problem such as the examples AKA. innovative.


You need to find yourself a better multi scrypt (see argument #1) coin pool. They do not all switch the same, exchange coins right away, etc.. they all have different strategies. If I was a smart multi coin pool operator, I would point a percentage of the pool to each of the coins that are more profitable to further negate anything that could happen in the market, and again exchange them quickly (as to your other point.) Also point a higher percentage of the pool's hash rate if you're risk adverse (or lower if you're risk prone) towards more stable currencies. Coinshift introduced slowly switching in between different coins instead of instantly switching them.. there are a lot of ways you can go about it. Use an exchange like Crypsty to automatically exchange coins as fast as you can, you can set it to auto trade for you, or wait a set amount of time for the market to adjust back up from the other multi pools dumping. There are a lot of ways you can go about it, I guarantee you some have put more thought into their strategies than others and you can see it on charts like the following. You can see there are some multi pools that consistently mine above what simply mining Litecoin could: http://i.snag.gy/9QOQN.jpg


Sorry, but there will usually always be a more profitable Scrypt coin (again see argument #1). It has been like that for a long time, and I don't see it changing anytime soon. Do to market dynamics and mining dynamics Litecoin will never consistently stay at the top of the Scrypt coin profitable list. I say this because since the release of web sites like coinchoose, coinwarz, etc.. historically Litecoin is not at the top of that list, or even in the top 3 or 5. Sure, it is usually at least top 10 and sometimes #1, however the majority of the time there are others that would be more profitable. Go to any site you choose this very moment as you can see there are a few that are more profitable to mine than Litecoin. If Litecoin is the most profitable coin to mine, then more people jump on it making the difficulty go up and making other coins more profitable (visa versa with all other Scrypt coins.)

http://coinchoose.com/litecoin.php
http://www.coinwarz.com/miningprofitability/litecoin
http://dustcoin.com/


All these arguments are related and it is hard not to discuss some things without mentioning others. It is the overall picture I am more worried about. You act like money being put into mining hardware (Scrypt ASICs and power hungry PoW) are a good thing. Sure, if you like oligarchies and killing planet earth at an accelerated rate they are a good thing. Your coin is more secure than all Scrypt coins, but it comes at the cost of electricity and centralization. Just wait until the VCs and bankers start mining... we haven't seen nothing yet when it comes to difficulty increases in Bitcoin/Litecoin. Eventually it will become quite centralized and definitely unprofitable (if it isn't already... that's debatable) to anyone without extremely deep pockets.

I will try to refrain from that in the future and provide more facts and links such as I have in this post. It is a fact tho that price does not follow difficulty.. it's not even debatable see my reply to Smoothie (if that's what you were referring to.)


I agree, but energy efficiency should be a factor in choosing an electronic currency, no? Do you leave your car running 24/7 also? Bitcoin DOES have it wrong. I feel the same about Bitcoin as to this point, PoW, and ASICs. This is a big part of the whole idea I am trying to convey that Litecoin simply is copying Bitcoin's mistakes. If it doesn't have anything innovative to stand on its own, it will become irrelevant if anything overtakes Bitcoin, which is more possible than everyone would like to believe.


In all seriousness, it's funny that you just described my exact opinion of Litecoin in the above paragraph. Except you over generalize in the last statement "they are all a house of cards." Sure, most of them are I agree... even 95% or more of them are, I also agree. Not all of them are gimmicks and only make minor changes (cough... Litecoin.) There are many very innovative coins in development and coins that already exist that are going to really shake up the whole ALT coin scene due to their features and innovation. Most of the coins in the past have been pump and dumps I agree (cough... Litecoin,) but some people are really trying to change the way people think about and use crypto currency.

Some features may seem unnecessary.... or as you guys like to put it a "gimmick", however people like features. What don't you guys understand about this? Sure, Bitcoin and Litecoin work just the way they are. What may seem gimmicky to you might totally sell another person on a crypto currency. The more features you add the more likely someone is going to find crypto currencies useful, specifically the one that has the features they like. You guys may be fine with Bitcoin/Litecoin how it is, but I know I am not alone in saying that I want more features. There is literally no amount of features that I would deem too many. If that feature gains one new user to the crypto currency, then it was a success.

Obviously some features are more useful/valuable than others. This is where the I think you guys (Smoothie doesn't like me saying you guys, but I keep hearing different people make the same arguments. It is easier for me to address all of you at the same time) overgeneralize that everything is a gimmick because there certainly have been some gimmicky changes to scam coins in the past (cough... Litecoin.) All of the coins that will be worth anything actually add useful features that at least someone (ME!) will want to use, I venture to guess I am not alone, and the market has agreed with that guess.

Bitcoin/Litecoin will never replace or take a huge market share from FIAT if more features aren't added. The average sheeple don't mind eating the fees and inflation of FIAT and Debit/Credit cards etcetra. We need to give them more incentive to use crypto currencies. By adding utility to money it makes it more valuable and makes it even more so different from the rather boring FIAT/BTC/LTC. Money doesn't have to specifically be used to pay for things, newer crypto currencies are redefining what people think money should be and what it should be used for. It could be used to do just about anything, and there is no reason why it shouldn't be used for more things than simply make payments.


That's incorrect, I haven't decided which new coin I will invest in. I probably won't have money to for a while. I've been supporting Litecoin for about 2 years and I was only Litecoin rich for a few months when something happened in my life and I needed to cash out all my coins to live on. They have increased a lot in value since then and I wish I was able to hold onto them. It was a very hard decision to not support Litecoin anymore, and I did so long after I didn't own any Litecoins. Believe me, I lobbied hard and LOUD for change on litecointalk.org and no one listened. Now I am laying everything out here and trying to wake you guys up. You can still fix all these problems.

This is only a fraction of my arguments against Litecoin, lets start with these.

Prove me wrong Smoothie.

Man up and stop skating around the issues at hand.

You like repeating yourself don't you? You like telling the world how stupid and horrible of a person I am over and over. Yet, you can't refute most of my arguments in this thread.. you just ignore them. Funny how that works. I am pretty sure you keep doing because you think I will stop if you keep telling people about all the "horrible" things I've done. That's not going to happen Smoothie, why don't you man up and refute my arguments?

You bring up history as if everything in the past happens the same way in the future, and as if the dynamics haven't vastly changed since two years ago. You are so invested and have been supporting Litecoin you hate to see it fail, you hate that I am pointing out why Litecoin is a crap coin, and you have a personal vendetta against me since I called your physical Litecoins overpriced. Just admit it bro, everyone can tell.  

My original choices of crypto coin investments have gone up a lot in value... Bitcoin and Litecoin. However, as I've stated a lot has changed since then and the free market is reflecting that. You are simply in denial. I have had a few things happen to me in the past couple years that I had to cash out my coins to FIAT... shit happens. Yeah, I didn't get rich but it doesn't mean that I was wrong and now everything I have to say is invalidated. Maybe to you it does, but I am sure that everyone else can read what I have to say and see the sense in it. Again, look at what the free market has decided. If I am such an idiot, prove me wrong.  


You guys haven't convinced me that I'm wrong yet. TheMage is the only one that has put a valid effort forward to do so. I will retreat and admit I am wrong if you can do so. All you seem to be able to do it point at me say "he's dumb dumb, he's bad man, no listen to him."


What do you mean by this?


I've been the most thorough person in this thread when it comes to what I believe, lol @ "I won't give you an accurate indication of what I think". I've explained everything very clearly, you must not be able to read?

If I don't know what I'm talking about, then point out how I am wrong.



You don't know my life story, a lot of things have happened to me over the past couple years. Sorry I couldn't sit on a big pile of coins like your holyness Smoothie. Apparently almost being homeless is not an excuse to Smoothie for going MIA. I am not a bad person, I am back and trying to work everything out and pay my debts. Scammers don't do that.

Again, the dynamics have changed a lot since then, and you have not been able to prove me wrong. You can only sling personal insults at me instead of pointing out how I am wrong. It's the same argument over and over, that's literally all you have on me since you can't refute my arguments.


You don't know my life story, we are not friends. I believe in what I am saying, until someone points out to me why specifically that I am wrong. Again, all you can do is insult me.


That's like saying I like girls as long as they are skinny, average weight, and fat. You just described every crypto currency in existence that wasn't a scam. Does that mean they are all good investments?


Literally all you can do is insult me, you can't refute my arguments. You are really making a good argument for Litecoin.  

The reason why I started this thread was because you were talking shit about me, and also talking shit about my reason for leaving Litecoin. I am proving that I had real reasons why not to support Litecoin anymore. All you do is ignore them and insult me. It is obvious to everyone that you can't refute my arguments, as Litecoin continues to drop like a rock.

1. It's not a theory
2. Yes it is true

If price does not always follow difficulty, that means price doesn't follow difficulty. IF price goes down while difficulty goes up, how can you say price follows difficulty? Answer: You can't unless you want to ignore all the times that it doesn't. To state otherwise is blasphemy.

Perhaps you could say "sometimes price follows difficulty", but the statement "price follows difficulty" is not true. There are many other factors at play than simply difficulty as I stated, funny how you ignore that. You guys just cherry pick things that suite your argument, and I address every point you bring up. I have brought up a lot of good points ITT that you guys continually ignore.

I would not invest in over 50% of the coins that are listed in my innovative crypto currency thread, the actual percentage is probably much higher than that if I were to go through and figure out an exact number. It is not investment advice, and I agree that just because something is innovative doesn't make it a good investment.

It is meant to be a list of changes and/or improvements to Bitcoin, or completely new cryptocoins. After a few years of people releasing innovative coins, it will help developers in the future figure out what has been done before, what hasn't been done, what could be done better, etc.. it is basically just a resource for people developing new coins.

It is also meant as a starting point for looking into different coins to invest in, but more research needs to be done on each coin to come to a conclusion. As I said, I myself would not invest in most of the coins on that list, but I certainly would invest in a handful of those coins before I invested in Litecoin.

I mostly agree with your post too, however I am getting really annoyed with everyone repeating the notion that all PoS coins and IPOs are scams. Some of them are sure, but not all of them and it is wrong to generalize them like that. Each of them need to be analyzed separately.

I'd venture to say I have a better idea of how much hardware has been sold than you, seeing as though I used to distribute Gridseed mining hardware, and had contacts high up on the food chain in those regards. Sure, I agree a 10% increase is pitiful compared to a 120% increase, but anyone that knows anything knows that Dogecoin is crap so I'm not sure what your point is in that comparison.


Actually.. people that are mining on multi pools are usually making more profit than people mining purely Litecoin. It is ridiculous to refute this fact, if you had any hands on experience then you would know so. Sure they have less liquidity, but it doesn't mean a higher profit can't be made mining something other than Litecoin, in fact it is a preposterous statement to say that multi pools are less profitable than purely mining Litecoin, or any coin for that matter. The same could be said for sha256 mining. If you aren't making more money in the long term on a multi pool, then you are on a crappy multi pool. Not all multi pools are as profitable as others due to the different techniques used.


Ok, so you're not a noob, but you are clueless if you think price follows difficulty. You are ignoring all the money flowing into the infrastructure of Bitcoin. You are so focused on mining hardware that you can't realize the big picture. With Bitcoin much more of that money was also spent on things such as payment processors, exchanges, services, and protocols on top of Bitcoin. This isn't happening with Litecoin on the same scale it is happening with Bitcoin, at least not to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars like Bitcoin. The reason for the price hike was many factors, and you seem to be insinuating that it is purely because of Bitcoin ASICs which is a ludicrous statement. Look in the project development and development subforums here and compare it to the Litecoin forums... a large percentage of money going into Litecoin is going into purely mining hardware, whereas with Bitcoin its being spread around all over the place. Stop acting like you have it all figured out when you are obviously clueless.

If price follows difficulty, then tell me why the Bitcoin price has not followed this trend the past 6 months? https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate

If you want more examples, they are numerous and I would be happy to provide them to you. It would be easier if you just did the research yourself though.

If this is true, I will concede a point to you here. I haven't checked in a long time, but how I said it was how it used to be ever since multi pools came on the scene. I don't really care much about how secure Litecoin is anymore honestly.


That's all good and nice, and it would be applicable to the debate if price followed difficulty. However, your statement is based on a flawed premise that price follows difficulty, and that mining hardware investments for Bitcoin are the only reason Bitcoin's price has gone up. When in fact it has been proven over the years during the numerous ups and downs that price does not follow difficulty, and also ignoring all the money going into many different aspects of the Bitcoin infrastructure.. not just mining hardware.

Furthermore, Litecoin having the most secure ALT coin network is a flat out lie. Most of the coins in the top 10 market cap are not Scrypt coins. Sure, you have the most secure SCRYPT alt coin. Everyone knows pretty much all Scrypt coins are crap, so you guys are like king of the crap coins. Congratulations, that's a huge accomplishment. The newer more innovative coins don't need to waste millions in electricity spitting out useless strings of data to secure their block chains, meanwhile subjecting their miners to pre-order scams and shady mining manufacturers. Nor do they have to worry about centralization of the network further down the road like all ASIC mine-able coins will have to succumb to.

FYP

Anyways.. if you would have been around as long as I have, you would realize that price does not follow difficulty. It doesn't happen that way with Bitcoin, and I am sorry that Litecoin is no exception. Any old timers can back me up on this statement, noobs always think that is true and proclaim it to be so until they realize that it is not.

A 340% increase is pitiful when taking into account all of the Scrypt mining hardware that has been sold, further proof that most people mine purely for profit and could give two shits about protecting Litecoin's network. Multi pools and the newest pump and dump scams have much more hash power behind them when combined and compared to Litecoin's hash rate.


I don't expect you guys to give up, in fact I always expected the opposite. The problem is that you guys ignore honest criticism and brush it off as trolling.

Ya there can't be any other reasonable explanation for people not seeing value in Litecoin...  

No one has been able to sufficiently counter my arguments, and Litecoiners are still ignoring that the free market agrees with me.

Litecoin is in denial. They are busy putting band aids on a gushing wound (new slogan, logo, video, etc.)

You guys will soon figure out that you can put a bow tie on a pig, but at the end of the day it's still a pig.

After taking a closer look, it seems like these projects have created decentralized social networks based on protecting user privacy, so those are definitely a step in the right direction and an improvement upon the currently available mainstream social networks. However, I don't believe that privacy alone will make people want to switch over to something like this, and in their current form I don't think they are necessarily beneficial to Bitcoin in the way I had imagined because they both leave out the important factor of monetizing the site and kicking back some (or ideally a large percentage) of the profit to the site's users.

I think this is the selling point with decentralized technologies.. either something can either be done cheaper than a current centralized solution, or users can actually get paid for using them. Privacy is great don't get me wrong, and more people around here understand that more than most, but I feel it is not enough to make this go mainstream. Ignoring privacy for a second, if someone is going to pay me (even a very small amount, as it would add up in a lifetime of use) to use a social network or look at videos on youtube, I am exponentially more likely to use their services than Facebook/Youtube if I knew that such a service existed.


I consider myself libertarian but anarchism is pretty much the same thing, except that the public generally views anarchism as being hostile. I think the word libertarian is a friendlier word for what I believe in, but I don't really care what others think about my political beliefs anyways.

The need for decentralized technologies goes way beyond political beliefs, as they are built to solve some sort of problem. Social networks make a ton of money off of the backs of people that use them, no one cares or does anything about it because they don't know any better. However, we as Bitcoiners and decentralized technology enthusiasts, can look at the problem more completely than the average social networking user. Bitcoin (et al) has already enlightened us as to the benefits of such a system. If wanting to see some (or most) of this money go to the actual users that give these things value is anarchist, then sure I am an anarchist.

Thanks. I love the idea of Gateways making it easier to pay with alt coins.

Also, there are so many coins coming out that are focused on data storage that I need to comb through them and pick out the best of the best. It is getting to the point where that is no longer innovative IMO. If you see the list to be added, a large part of them have to do with decentralized data storage.

Thanks!

I think my OP is somewhat confusing. The post was supposed to be less about social networking and more about the benefits of building decentralized applications for the future of cryptos. Thanks very much for pointing me to those projects though, I'll check them out.


This wouldn't have to replace Facebook to be a success. Facebook has 1.25 billion users, even if only a small percentage switched over it could still be a success. Paying people to use it is a pretty good selling point IMO.

I added the following to the "coins to add" list:

- Bitcloud (Bitcloud is an open source distributed database and escrow agent that allows people to share data and create distributed applications.)
- Storj (decentralized data storage)
- MetaDisk (Metadisk is the first storage focused blockchain-distributed web application, which means that there is no central authority or entity that controls your data. Metadisk runs on top of the Storj prototype platform, which allows users to sell their hard drive space for coins.)
- Darkcoin (a little late adding this one... it is one of the first "coin join" implementations via Dark Send)
-

I added a bit to the end there to make sure I was making the point I was trying to make. I don't think I had originally worded it correctly to do so.


Opinions?

I read an interesting article today that confirmed my suspicions that Facebook is collecting large databases of information on its users, and it likely selling that information. If you would like to read the article, you can do so here: http://www.theverge.com/2014/6/28/5852652/facebook-altered-689000-users-news-feeds-for-a-psychology-experiment

This is only one use case for decentralized technologies, but I feel like it is a good one to start with. I would venture to say the amount of time the average person spends on social networking sites pales in comparison to the amount of time the average person spends on the rest of the internet. Furthermore, I would guess that most of these people do not use Bitcoin or crypto currencies, this could be a "killer app" to bootstrap widespread adoption. If you've ever used anything like MySpace, Facebook, or Twitter, I think you can understand what I am saying in that they are oddly addictive, similar to how someone obsessed with crypto currency would view these forums. The difference is that there are millions (billions?) more people that use social networking compared to those that use crypto currencies. So, how can decentralized block chain technologies improve upon current social networks?

If you think Facebook is not analyzing our data, then this article is proof that it does happen. I'm certain this is just a small part of it, if they were to release all information about what data they are collecting and selling, I think most people would be shocked. They sell that information to people that would find it interesting, people to whom that information will give them an edge in marketing and product design.

Making a decentralized social network for the specific purpose of increasing privacy may seem like an unnecessary thing to do if you don't have anything to hide. Although I disagree very much with that sentiment, for reasons that would make this post much longer than it already will be, it is not only our privacy that is at stake. They are also making a lot of money off of everyone that posts and likes things on their social network. You are making Facebook money every time you like or post about something. The only thing that gives Facebook value is its users, the information it can collect from them, and advertising revenue. In other words, we are the ones that gives Facebook its value, and we have made them a LOT of money. Let me ask... how much of that money that Facebook has made off of you have you seen?

So... Facebook, etcetra, are making a ton of money off of all of us, and along with it our privacy takes a huge hit. How can we solve both of these problems? By making a decentralized social network. All data can be encrypted, so the only way someone can see a post, message, or what you like, are only the people that you want to see that information. It would be cryptographically provable that your information is safe.

I realize the average person doesn't care about privacy, but most people do care about money. Imagine being paid for posting and liking things on Facebook, even clicking on the adds. A decentralized social network makes this possible. We are afterall the ones making money for Facebook, shouldn't at the very least some of this be going into our own pockets? It would be possible to decrypt your information and submit it anonymously to the decentralized social network's database, which could then sell that information and distribute it to users of the decentralized social network. You could of course opt out of sharing your information, but this extra revenue stream would be possible. Furthermore, all advertising revenues could be split evenly among users.

In summary, privacy is not the only reason to want decentralized technologies to become mainstream. Decentralized technologies can put money large corporations are making off of us back into our pockets as well. This is only one use case, there are many more, one of the most obvious that comes to mind is Youtube. It will be interesting to see all of the projects come to fruition, and I think decentralized applications are the next new frontier in the crypto currency space. The decentralized movement is in full swing, Bitcoin has inspired so many great ideas of how to use decentralized block chain technology. Mark my words, there will be some decentralized applications that are adopted mainstream and it will bring many new users to crypto currencies.

Point I'm trying to convey: I realize I'm being captain obvious here, and bringing up an idea that many people have had before- a decentralized social network. However, my point here is in pointing out the importance of using decentralized block chain technology other than for money. I see a lot of hate and disdain on the forums for people wanting to create something that's not Bitcoin, when instead we should be embracing these projects for many reasons, if not for the sole reason of giving more people a good reason to adopt crypto currencies. One of the biggest things holding crypto currencies back at this point is that there's not a whole lot you can do with them. Creating other uses for crypto currencies through making decentralized applications will help solve that problem, and give "normal" people a reason to adopt them that otherwise wouldn't. I believe too much emphasis is being spent on trying to get merchants to accept crypto currencies as the only way forward (as far as mass adoption.) People already have a way of paying for things that is quite convenient and are mostly not bothered from paying the fees or eating the inflation (Fiat/Credit Cards/Debit Cards/Etc.) By focusing on creating other innovative uses of crypto currencies by creating decentralized applications, we can FORCE merchants to accept crypto currencies instead of just asking them to. What I mean by that is by creating new uses we will bring more users, and at that point (hopefully) there will be so many people using crypto currencies that a business would be crazy not to accept them.

Well, honestly I don't want to take him to court. I know people will though, and it may be the only chance I have to recover the money. At this point I would prefer a refund, either in USD or full BTC, but this isn't the first time he has said he is giving out refunds, so I'm not sure how genuine the refund offer is. I would like to hear from anyone else that has actually been successful getting a refund. You are the only person so far that has said they have.

Almost 1 year waiting for hardware, waiting 3 months for a refund, and he builds/ships new hardware to new customers (Goldstrikes). I mean... WTF. Meanwhile he builds a 100 Th farm for his shareholders. I need to decide if it's time to cut the losses, or continue with litigation. I already contacted Wood Law, but if Ken keeps this ponzi going much longer, there may be nothing left by the time that goes through the courts. I am well familiar with Ponzis as a company I worked for was subcontracted by 2 of them in the past couple years and they stiffed us on the bill. There will be a lot of creditors in this case.. shareholders and customers etcetra. If this is what I think it is there is likely going to be nothing left and Ken will likely go to jail (unless he disappears with what's left.)

I gotta admit I was totally wrong about Ken.. it is sad because I wanted to give him a chance to deliver.

The only thing about the refunds is he makes you sign a form saying you'll take the current BTC exchange rate locked in at USD price for the hardware. It seems possible that I could sign that and send it to him, him still not give me a refund, and then bring it up in court that I agreed to a USD refund.

I imagine Wood Law will be pushing for a full BTC refund, as that is how it's worked in the past (HashFast case.) Hash Fast specifically promised refunds with full BTC, so I'm not sure if this case is different. I have read one person say that the orders have always been locked in USD as to getting refunds, but I'm not sure that's the case. Why would Ken make us sign that form then?

Can we get a count of how many people have been successful getting refunds? I have read hearsay that someone has already received a refund. So, we'll start the count with 1.

Can I get some opinions as what to do? I am not a lawyer... also I think someone should send Wood Law an email about this. I don't think it's good if we all contact them at once.. just one person send them the refund form and ask their opinion as what to do. I'm not sure why they haven't contacted me back yet after filling out that form on their website..

I'm glad you got the accessories in, I hope customs clears that up for you fast. If you need me to do anything let me know.

That is why I like them so much, by sending in 2 payments (bitsharesags & swarm) you can invest in a lot of neat decentralized applications.

I also have a feeling Swarm might fund Ethereum. This is just speculation, but Vitalik has a quote on Swarm's home page.. something about it being the future of crowdfunding. Don't take my word for that though, it is just a wild guess.