Wow ok I'm done. I won't be reading or posting in this thread again. I've already said I'm sorry for the conflict in my life that got in the way with this group buy plenty of times. And people are still trying to bicker about a few dollars.
John.K please refund my 17 BTC to 1FMjXR8GgrjVmpbvTjmM1GfuGZXkR3AZja thanks.
You won't be missed. edit: think you mean 14.4 btc... |
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these sure are purdy...
2 @ 20
oops, meant 1 @ 20, sorry |
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these sure are purdy...
2 @ 20
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I can do it. Been trading btc since march 2011, have over 100 rating on bitcoin otc and have been pretty active on bitcointalk. I have a lot of free time since I only have 3 classes this semester at school. I can get a handful of references and will give docs to a trusted 3rd party if anyone wants to consider it.
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As per the 32 sample chip issue, I think it's quite fair that the amount of chips were taken from OP and split amongst buyers here, but note that in other GB's the sample chips weren't in the equation when the refunds were made. I'm open for discussion on this though.
My vote is that we proceed as normal, the sample chips were not accounted for in the group buy agreement. Hurt him in his trust, not his pocket. Of course, if my premise is wrong, and there is a record that we agreed elsewise regarding the sample chips prior to closing the group buy, I suggest levying appropriate penalties. This is the most legally accountable solution. The chips weren't decided on in the beginning. We definitley voted 8 go to bkk. the rest he said he'd keep because "the 1% wasn't that much for being the organizer and he wanted to keep the rest to test personally." This sort of implies that he was keeping the remainder as part of his 1% for being organizer which, at the time, seemed fair. Seeing how he recently said he didn't deserve the 1%, it only makes sense he pay for the chips. I'd still rather have a good reason to give him a negative trust rating than seize 32 chips worth of BTC. Raging the group buy participant should be kept separate from Raging the group buy organizer as much as possible. If he is halfway decent - or cares at all about his trust rating - he will offer to pay for the chips. Why is this an "or" situation? we can have the chips he gave away and give him bad trust. There's no way he's doing any more group buys or stuff likewise with the nonsense he's gone through, who offer him an ultimatum? |
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As per the 32 sample chip issue, I think it's quite fair that the amount of chips were taken from OP and split amongst buyers here, but note that in other GB's the sample chips weren't in the equation when the refunds were made. I'm open for discussion on this though.
My vote is that we proceed as normal, the sample chips were not accounted for in the group buy agreement. Hurt him in his trust, not his pocket. Of course, if my premise is wrong, and there is a record that we agreed elsewise regarding the sample chips prior to closing the group buy, I suggest levying appropriate penalties. This is the most legally accountable solution. The chips weren't decided on in the beginning. We definitley voted 8 go to bkk. the rest he said he'd keep because "the 1% wasn't that much for being the organizer and he wanted to keep the rest to test personally." This sort of implies that he was keeping the remainder as part of his 1% for being organizer which, at the time, seemed fair. Seeing how he recently said he didn't deserve the 1%, it only makes sense he pay for the chips. |
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Let's not forget that Raging paid for 212 chips. That means he was entitled to .67904 of the 32 developer chips. I'd be ok with only charging him 31 chips, since his purchase legitimately entitled him to a portion of one.
or .67 of one  |
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Of course, I think Raging should pay for those chips... in which case the share per person would be 0.07930502641 after subtracting 32 shares from raging.
Think they're talking about making Ragin pay for the sample chips not his bulk chip order? Yup. The way I see it Ragin received 32 total chips, therefore, he's not entitled to a refund for those 32, since he received those chips. If he were to get a refund on those 32 chips which he took, he would be double-dipping. He's entitled to a refund for all the chips he paid for minus the 32 he took. It's not rocket science. It's pretty simple, really. When you put it like that, yeah. haha |
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I do not think Raging should have his chip money withheld without his permission. Raging the chip buy operator and Raging the chip buyer are discrete entities in my mind.
We are all biased here because we stand to profit from taking his chip money.
What I want is for Raging to give John permission to distribute that money, or send in more money or whatever. Otherwise he will receive a negative trust rating (from me at least) for not covering the losses he was responsible for. He should not be penalized out of his chip buy if he refuses to pay. That money should be protected.
Honestly Raging, prodigits7 didn't take the chips. You did, because you wanted to use them to help you make money on your NEO-ASICs thing. This was dishonest, since they did not belong to you, and since you did not have permission to do it.
Asking you to pay for the chips that you took from the group to (try to) use for your own personal gain is not unreasonable.
I hope you agree.
I agree with were you're coming from, I'm just kind of upset with how Raging is acting... On a similar note, if anyone wants to give to people who did the bookkeeping while refunds were being sorted, we can just post tip addresses after refunds are distributed and you can give whatever you feel is fair. |
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There were tips sent to the payment address for John K. When I have a moment I'll capture those that were recorded and see if they match up to the extra total.
the total to john includes the tips I believe. 36905473f73a53874f81da80629be982ec269116e59c0ca723032f94e9aae149 has 11.99906528 BTC e03868aa432c035196bd7476551ac5fafec8b7d5915b256c7385d778c5fa0528 has 0.01025 BTC combined, this is more than 1.5% to John k. so I assume this includes tips. |
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Having too much is better than not having enough. I would be OK with dividing that number up, or holding the additional ~0.6btc for a period of time after the refund for someone else to come forward etc.
Fortunately it's pretty close.
I'm not sure what you mean by "someone else to come forward" |
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Since for whatever reason (despite voicing my discontent at the time) this group buy used "chips per bitcoin" instead of a fixed price of "bitcoins per chip" (chips aren't divisible, bitcoins are...) as the dividing metric, I calculate that the original cost was 0.08016525 BTC per chip. This included escrow fees at 1.5% to JohnK, chip shipping costs from Avalon, ragin's 1%, but NOT redistribution shipping from ragin to buyers as that was to be paid individually to ragin at a later date.
782.1 BTC * 1.025 (1 percent for ragingazn628 and 1.5 percent for johnk ) = 801.6525 for one order
801.6525 / 10000 = 0.08016525 per chip
Ragin is (rightfully) forfeiting his escrow fee of 1%
John K's escrow fee is therefore 782.1 * 0.015 = 11.7315 BTC
Ragin's fee (returned to the group is) 782.1 * 0.01 = 7.821 BTC
Refund available is therefore 782.1 (chips plus shipping) + 7.821 (Ragin's share) = 789.921 BTC available for refund
Math check: 801.6525 (collected) - 11.7315 (JohnK's fee) = 789.921 (check)
(no sample chips accounted for in the calculation; at time of purchase this wasn't indicated as part of the deal...)
Refund issued per chip is thusly 789.921 / 10000 = 0.0789921 BTC per chip
This should be issued to all present documented chip holders in the group. Cost from after the fact sales amongst group members should not be accounted for as the sale constitutes a transfer of risk, and would make the refund entirely too complicated to process.
Your math checks out. Please double check I got it right on the chip count sheet. Also, I fully agree that second party sales prices will not and should not be considered. Well not exactly, that only works in a perfect world we have 790.51250333782.1 from the refund. 7.821 set aside that was to be raging's fee. 0.59150333 remaining in this group buy's btc address. there are a lot of addresses in the group buy escrow address and john k. can explain them John. K's amount was already taken out, so regardless of what it "should be" it is 790.51250333 or 0.07905125033 per share unless some of those mystery addresses are under john. k's control, in which case it is greater. Of course, I think Raging should pay for those chips... in which case the share per person would be 0.07930502641 after subtracting 32 shares from raging. |
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Alright instead of bickering with each other, let's reorganize everything so people can get their money back faster. My spreadsheet for KnCMiner proved quite effective with refunding people. So I will start the same. JohnK will be given permission to edit the spreadsheet once he gets the refund from Avalon back. This is because refunds will go to JohnK and he will be the one redistributing the funds. Please use this form to get the refund process started for John.K when he gets back. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1k0Yn9Sc7pOlzI5DgsglLdqfaijLkVihAXUDgM4XpCwo/viewformyou don't understand. We're mad because WE DID THIS ALREADY. You didn't deserve to do what you pleased with those chips and we aren't comping them to you for work in organizing refunds or whatever because people in the thread did this already! I don't trust you with funds/ payment addresses so I'm leaving it to john k. As for the 32 chips, this may sound small but to big investors like me it does matter, plus I'll take a bit of solace knowing you don't come out positive. Ragingazn, the best thing you can do is admit you screwed up, forfeit the 32 chips you gave to prodigits (I'll give up asking for the 1.5% fee for escrow). and walk away like you have done 90% of the time this group buy was going on. |
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And where did you receive permission from the majority of the group buy to give said chips to prodigits7?
That was a decision YOU made, WITHOUT our consent. You said "I need them for my assembly". Then you gave them away, and didn't use them for the purpose you stated you were going to use them. How do you think you are absolved of that responsibility by giving them to someone NONE of us have ever heard of?
I believe we should deduct 30 chips from your total and redistribute it proportionally to each chip owner, and the onus should rest on you to recover them and sell them for whatever you can get for them.
How is this not fair?
I agree that those chips were group property, and raging does not deny that he appropriated them. Payment for those chips seems very reasonable, especially given how timely they were. I hate to defend anyone in this thread because you are all a bunch of wolves out looking for something to take a bite out of. In fact, I was going to defend someone, but I am not going to after that sentence. Get over it. You know the math, you know JohnK doesn't care what you say, he'll refund the escrow per the original terms. Stop wasting your time, people. What exactly is the problem here? he stole 32 chips from us, if you just deduct it from his share and add it to the pot, then everyone (including raging) gets a discount equivalent their stake in the sample chips. |
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I did not steal anything. Prodigits7 has the 32 sample chips. I have a recording of him saying he has it as well. I am in the same situation as everyone else right now. You also need to be careful with prodigits7. He's not who he says he is. He claimed to have made Avalon Clones. I met up with him and he showed me a few parts but not a fully working one. I was stupid enough to believe him. I have all his lies recorded. Thank god I didn't trust him to receive the KnCMiner refunds. Who knows what he would have done. Anyway, I am refunding people from my other group buy right now. hey guys,
Let's make one thing clear... I do NOT have the BTC from this group buy. I never did. JohnK was the escrow and he has everything. He will be around soon, I don't know where he went. I do not have the chips from this group buy either .... that's why we are being refunded.
except for the sample chips... Can you pay for john k's escrow fee/ the people who took over since you kinda failed as a group buy organizer... That's not how it works, Noitev. You are paying JohnK's escrow fee, because you are now getting the full force of his protection. Im aware and appreciate john ks existence, Im just saying raging more or less blatantly tried to steal our chips (he stole 20 already) and since we did everything to prevent it, he wants his entire share back as a fallback. Isn't it suspicious that he's never on, except when money is at stake for him? we paid for john k. to prevent exactly what he did, and now that we have some of his funds, I think it's only fair we subtract johns fee from raging's investment. Also, as much as I love John k, we resorted to having to use group buy members to facilitate the transaction/cancellation. I understand both sides of the argument, namely that raging is saying "The price is 1.5% higher so that if I scam you, you get your money back." but when he actually does, isn't it fair that he pay for the 1.5%? I understand it could have very well have been a poor set of circumstances and that he might not have tried to scam us, but my opinion is totally opposed to that when he magically becomes healthy enough to post on the forums, something he was incapable of doing while he had control of over 50,000 dollars in hardware coming to him and had endless queries asking chip statuses. The only time he ever posted was when he was in serious risk of losing his chips -just moved in to my house, that's why I was gone, relax -death in the family, sorry Im still ok to do this -therapist told me to separate myself from the internet, everything is still fine -Oh there's a refund? ok, give me all my money back then... Obviously he doesn't deserve the 1% so he's not going to argue for that, but he'll be damned if he comes out of this with less than what he put in after all the work he's gone through failing to scam us. I was ok with all of this so far, since I talked to prodigits a few times on skype. That was until raging said he gave the sample chips that were decidedly not his to prodigits7, a personal friend of his he wants to repay for doing damage control on his kncminer groupbuy. I'd value the chips at over 4 btc total since they were shipped months ago. So if raging feels like he can pay prodigits, why not pay the people doing damage control here? I honestly wouldn't really care if raging would just pay for the 1.5% escrow fee, but he's gonna try to profit on this failed groupbuy by double dipping in the chips and the full amount of the refund? screw that. Your shit never made sense to me logically. According to you, you gave him chips even though you didn't ever trust him. you absolutely need to subtract the 32 chips from YOUR share since it was your dumb ass who gave it to him. |
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I agree with Noitev and Wrenchmonkey. Ragin has been a scumbag during this entire affair and has caused all sorts of mayhem among numerous groupbuys. Just because some of you are relieved that this clusterfuck is almost over isn't a reason not to levy punitive fines against Ragin. JohnK should get paid via Ragin's refund. He already walked away scot-free with dev chips, I'll be damned if a bunch of you want to roll over and say it's "just" 1.5%. Scams and mismanagement will continue to happen in groupbuys if we don't start setting proper examples.
exactly my point. If you guys don't care, hope you don't mind giving me "just" $1000 dollars... |
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I would be among the 'ayes' if a vote were cast as to whether John's fees should come out of Ragin's refund, but that's probably a logistical nightmare for Johnk.
As far as calculations go, this would be simple. We'd just subtract the entire 11 some odd btc from Raging's spreadsheet line and re-calculate everyone's refund without the % from John K. I personally think this is wrong; I don't think it's up to us to "punish". As far as the sample chips, I remember voicing my concern about Raging deciding what to do with chips that statistically didn't belong to him, but no one except me raised any objections. I think Raging sent 8 to BKKCoins (or posted that he did), but Raging was indeed open about how he was trying to get an assembly line up and running, and was going to take 22 chips for himself, and everyone seemed cool with it at the time. I'm not saying Raging was innocent in all this, but the sample chips were handled openly, and everyone was given an opportunity to speak up if they thought it was unfair. Here's the conversation: ...
I will send pledged chips to BKK but I will need the rest for my development over here as well.
...
Ahh! Giant Pics! Tiny screen! Seriously though; all sample chips should be allocated based on percentage of the buy holding, right? What about these other 22 chips? No one weigh in? To me it seems from the spreadsheet that you personally are entitled to .686 or so chips. Just want to make sure everything is on the up and up. Yes but you forget I have my own project and it is a lot of work doing this group buy as well. 8 so far and I will keep the rest for development. I am only getting 1% (7.8BTC) for doing this group buy. If you guys don't think this is fair then please let me know. ALSO! Please fill out this new form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1eM7xUr058AAgDkPSlAbAVYKTihKE0v2JXD8Yac8T200/viewformThe fee was pre-agreed upon, but I don't think any sample chips were allocated to you in the original thread. With my small stake it's of little consequence to me, but I feel that that is indeed not what was bargained for. If no one else cares, it's cool with me, but I think that should definitely be a community consensus, and not an assumption. Yeah no one mentioned sample chips until recently, I'm with you on that, community consensus  if I'm happy then everyone is happy. Me happy = much faster shipping  I was the only one who said ANYTHING about it except Bicknellski, who voted 8 chips go to BKKCoins (which is mentioned in the above quote). I hate how Raging handled this, but as far as I'm concerned he told us he wanted all 22 dev chips to start his assembly biz and no one objected, so everything was public and we all knew what he was planning to do with them. I recall asking for my chip in a pm. When you get to the point where the chips are shipped, a lot of people wanted them to go certain places. I'll try to find it. edit: I found your post. It looks to me a lot of people (including myself) voted for the chips to go to bkk (I later pmed him saying I wanted it personally). Not too much time or effort was used dwelling on it. The only reason no one else voted was because they didn't have enough to get 1 chip sent one place or another on their own. He also doesn't have a mining company so to say he's using it himself is untrue since he gave them to prodigits7. As for this quote: Yes but you forget I have my own project and it is a lot of work doing this group buy as well. 8 so far and I will keep the rest for development. I am only getting 1% (7.8BTC) for doing this group buy. If you guys don't think this is fair then please let me know.Lets just say I don't think this is fair, which is why I've been asking where they were since they were announced and raging disappeared... |
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I'll take what I can get, just stating my opinion
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hey guys,
Let's make one thing clear... I do NOT have the BTC from this group buy. I never did. JohnK was the escrow and he has everything. He will be around soon, I don't know where he went. I do not have the chips from this group buy either .... that's why we are being refunded.
except for the sample chips... Can you pay for john k's escrow fee/ the people who took over since you kinda failed as a group buy organizer... That's not how it works, Noitev. You are paying JohnK's escrow fee, because you are now getting the full force of his protection. Im aware and appreciate john ks existence, Im just saying raging more or less blatantly tried to steal our chips (he stole 20 already) and since we did everything to prevent it, he wants his entire share back as a fallback. Isn't it suspicious that he's never on, except when money is at stake for him? we paid for john k. to prevent exactly what he did, and now that we have some of his funds, I think it's only fair we subtract johns fee from raging's investment. Also, as much as I love John k, we resorted to having to use group buy members to facilitate the transaction/cancellation. I understand both sides of the argument, namely that raging is saying "The price is 1.5% higher so that if I scam you, you get your money back." but when he actually does, isn't it fair that he pay for the 1.5%? I understand it could have very well have been a poor set of circumstances and that he might not have tried to scam us, but my opinion is totally opposed to that when he magically becomes healthy enough to post on the forums, something he was incapable of doing while he had control of over 50,000 dollars in hardware coming to him and had endless queries asking chip statuses. The only time he ever posted was when he was in serious risk of losing his chips -just moved in to my house, that's why I was gone, relax -death in the family, sorry Im still ok to do this -therapist told me to separate myself from the internet, everything is still fine -Oh there's a refund? ok, give me all my money back then... Obviously he doesn't deserve the 1% so he's not going to argue for that, but he'll be damned if he comes out of this with less than what he put in after all the work he's gone through failing to scam us. I was ok with all of this so far, since I talked to prodigits a few times on skype. That was until raging said he gave the sample chips that were decidedly not his to prodigits7, a personal friend of his he wants to repay for doing damage control on his kncminer groupbuy. I'd value the chips at over 4 btc total since they were shipped months ago. So if raging feels like he can pay prodigits, why not pay the people doing damage control here? I honestly wouldn't really care if raging would just pay for the 1.5% escrow fee, but he's gonna try to profit on this failed groupbuy by double dipping in the chips and the full amount of the refund? screw that. |
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hey guys,
Let's make one thing clear... I do NOT have the BTC from this group buy. I never did. JohnK was the escrow and he has everything. He will be around soon, I don't know where he went. I do not have the chips from this group buy either .... that's why we are being refunded.
That's not the issue. The issue is that you went AWOL when shit hit the fan. Your "facilitation" fee was not earned nor do I think it is deserved. Do you disagree? I make no judgment on your part; things happen. But I don't feel that you earned your fee. If you believe you have earned it, feel free to make your case. I imagine you probably won't find a lot of support here as your absence caused a large amount of distress for many of us. Edit: I believe are entitled to a refund just like everyone else. But we paid a "fee" of 1% to you for organizing and facilitating this group buy, which you failed to do. THAT is what I feel you are not entitled to. I agree with this sentiment. If we reward Ragin for poorly running a group buy it sends the wrong message. There should be negative repercussions for not adequately organizing a group buy and causing distress among its members. Ragin's fees should rollover to pay JohnK. Exactly, a lot of people had to take time out of their hands to get this going back on track with you totally gone. The fact that you are back on after everything I heard from prodigits7 (which made you sound unfit for communication online or otherwise) is quite unsettling to me. Additionally, you gave chips that weren't yours to prodigits7. I'd have more sympathy for you if you came on at any point before the checkbooks were opened, but I really feel you should pay for the escrow fee and bigbeninlondon and I's work. |
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