NOT cool at all. That would be ludicrous. At the current value of Bitcoins in USD that means you are putting up $1.25 per GHs and getting back 20% of what that will mine after electricity costs? Did we not already BUY those chips with the profits from our company? There is no way we have to put up our shares to get the hashing!! If AM is giving away the chips for a deal like this, then we should be getting a percentage of those proceeds from mining based solely on our ownership of those shares. I fail to understand how you think it's "cool" to have to use your shares as collateral for such an operation. It would be much better for your to sell your shares, buy mining equipment that uses more efficient chips and keep 100% of the profit after electricity costs.
I sincerely hope that this is not the deal FC cooked up. I cannot believe this for one second.
It would be best to wait until all the terms and conditions are presented. |
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HL themselves said they liked my idea of merging them... More people should pressure them to make the move merging all shares into AM100, and getting rid of the 5% fee.
The issue is forcing people to either: 1) Buy up to reach quantities of 100 or 2) Force them to liquidate
I'm surprised they would be up for getting rid of the A100 shares. At 3255 shares, a 5% cut is about 162 whole shares of dividends for HL and that doesn't including trading fees. They seem pointless at these prices but if/when AM shares go up again, it allows people with fewer coins to jump in. They do serve as an alternative option but we shall see. I completely misread that, you meant it the other way. I don't see the reason why to have all fractional shares, that in itself raises many more issues (such as exporting). |
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If friedcat has confirmed it (via PM or email), then that should be good enough for now. Currently, there are no ways to confirm direct shares. Previously, it was done through the tracking of dividends but March 30th was the last dividend date. Don't lose that share transfer confirmation.
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I predict low share prices for AM in the near future, maybe record lows... not for bad news but because I imagine many AM investors will want to get into DataTank... and many of us already used all our available funds to purchase cheep AM shares.
There seems to be an appeal with DataTank, as they're working closely with AM. However, are current shareholders willing to let go of their shares for something that is farther down the line? Dividend Payments
Profits will be paid weekly in form of dividends. First payments are expected when the initial hardware is deployed, 3-6 months after successful fund raising.
Perhaps I'm reading it wrong but it seems like quite the trade off with 3-6 months later, with the assumption that AM will start dividends sooner than that. There's lots to consider. |
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How many containers are they expecting to sell?
5-10 this year. 5-10 per month in 2015. Like other hardware, it all depends on price and availability. The current going rate for in-hand hardware is about $1-2 a GH, roughly speaking. What's special in this case is scalability, which no other manufacturer can do currently for in-hand hardware for such quantities. Realize that even if one container costs $500k $670k for 2 PH/s at 1.2 MW, you can still ROI in BTC in under 30 days at current network hashrate. No other manufacturer can say the same about their hardware ( citation needed). Go ahead and plug in the numbers here: https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/calculator (or any other mining calculator). The first container will most likely be sold at a premium, where it can easily mine over 250 BTC in profit and potentially break 1000 coins (again, in profit) over its lifetime. After the first several containers are sold, they will quickly fall in line of $1-$2 a GH/s. Feel free to correct my math. EDIT: Saw that a DataTank is about 1100 BTC or $670k, that skews my numbers a bit. Regardless, the first container will still mine a boadload. |
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so a DataTank holds 50 of x24s? 24*10Gh*50= ~12000-13200 Gh/s or 12-13.2 Th/s if my math is right? this needs 10200-11880 Watts of power? (100 amps? @120V) how much is a DataTank? when is it available for purchase etc...? The current understanding is that DataTanks cannot be purchased independently. Rather, they are in groups of six per shipping container. Based off of this document (on pg 9-10), here are the supposed specifications: Example 2.4PH 1.2MW Mining Container (ASICMiner Gen3) ● 6 tanks per container, 200kW-240kW each ● 400 boards each tank, 500W per board, 2,400 boards total ● Equivalent to 600 4U boxes ● Shipping container footprint instead of 60 racks in high density facility ● 2-3PH/s at estimated hashrate (based on reports from China24) ● No thermal throttling, possible performance increase to be tested with actual hardware ● Fixed and predictable cost, no matter if fully or only partially populated This option for high density mining will be aimed more towards franchisees, who have access to both the funds and electricity to maintain it. |
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in short, it legitimizes B/bitcoin further which helps it for the long run.
I share the same mindset here also but the original question was aimed more towards the current situation of miners. Roughly speaking, there are hundreds of PH/s that will be coming online in the next couple months. A sudden down swing in price will having miners thinking twice about purchasing and bringing it online while an upswing could potentially send the network into the Exahash region. Anyone care to share their speculative thoughts on which way it will swing (with semi-substantial rationale) and how AM might react to such a shift? FYI: The U.S. Gov still owns ~144k Bitcoins so they still have a decent sum left in their wallets. |
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With the dropping rate of the BTC from the U.S. Gov selling off the 29,656 BTC, does anyone anticipate any significant movement in the mining industry/total network hashrate? Since the drop of the news here, BTC has taken quite a tumble from mid 600 to now upper 500s. Here is the timeline of event: June 23rd: Bidder Registration June 27th: Auction from 6am - 6pm EDT June 30th: Winners notified July 1st: Wire Transfer Deadline for Winning Parties This is not meant to start a flame war about political views or speculation of BTC price in the coming weeks; rather how does this potentially effect all current miners with potential massive price swings in either way. Moreover, does this news mean a change of plans for the end of June and early July? U.S. Marshall's Announcement of BTC Auction: http://www.usmarshals.gov/assets/2014/bitcoins/ |
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In due time, friedcat said it best here: Our pricing strategy was discussed in the board before, which targets low margin large quantity instead of high margin small quantity because: 1) If both device producers and miners can have real profit after risk premium, we will develop reliable consumer of chips in the long time.
If the mine was set up first, the total network hashrate would sky rocket → high network hashrate leads to lower hardware sales for hardware partners → lower sales for hardware partners, they'll find other options → lower chip sales overall → lower div yield in the long run; mining divs is not sustainable (long term) once everyone else gets their hardware online However, if chip sales start first → hardware partners sells large quantities; end-users make profit early on → network rises but chip volume sales is high → sets up large scale mine → high chip sales and decent mining revenue → better, sustainable div yield; this allows all parties to make funds and be happy A flawed metaphor but appropriate: Look at the video graphics card market, it's why you see it dominated by hardware partners like EVGA, PNY for Nvidia or Sapphire, XFX for AMD or ASUS, Gigabyte for both. You don't see too many OEM cards going out in high volumes. Similarly, you don't see Intel or AMD producing entire computers but primarily focus on the processor. When everyone makes money, the industry as a whole grows (and not cannibalize itself). Now if friedcat is going the route where hardware partners get chips first around $0.4-$0.5 a GH and still believes that mining is still feasible afterwards, that means he's getting a significantly lower rate than the quoted <$0.2 a GH. While it's quick and easy to jump in glee after that informative update, it still has to be executed. Receiving hardware within the scheduled time frames; partners needing to be up-to-date with latest Gen3 info to produce efficient miners; ensuring that end-users get their hardware in a timely fashion; and setting up the mine later on are all things need to happen correctly for it to go well. How these events occur will be more telling of the dividend yield, as opposed to just taking the hashrate accounted for and multiplying by the BTC/USD ratio and the going rate of GH/s sold. |
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Thanks for these answers friedcat!!
+∞ on this! Is it too soon to start speculating if Gen5 will be under 20nm? |
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Gsan is another potential board member, I know he had a couple board member seats back in the day.
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So what's the deal with these DataTank + shipping container things. Seeing pictures but not a lot of other information.
All that is known is Allied Control is working with AM on immersion cooled mining, which appears to be aimed towards potential franchisees. Those links are from the publicly accessible Drive that was made public a few months back. Every so often, it is updated with new information and there just happened to be updated info when I checked it. Other than that, there was nothing else I could find from my research. |
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Gentlemen, don't get carried away by speculating on the quality of communication by friedcat. As pointed out multiple times, due to the nature of the operation there is little incentive to do extensive IR, other than the necessary accounting and communication through shareholder representatives (board). Instead the focus is on the core business. Friedcat decided to not pass the statements by the board first, but instead releasing them to the public directly. Regarding the often quoted "aggressive dividends": Let me take the blame here, because these are not friedcats words. Also I think there is massive confusion about what "aggressive" actually means. Thus let me remove any ambiguity by posting the text from the respective communication: (BoardMember1) so I underatand that the next payments to the shareholders shoudl happen in May....
(BoardMember2) regarding dividends, do you have a target for retained earnings vs. dividends?
(BoardMember2) if retained earnings is high we need to consider the security mechanisms for the company treasury.
(FC) At most 1:2. Most retained are for short-time spendings (license, wafer/components order). There are no long-time plan of retaining since we won't buy land/bond/etc.
(BoardMember2) Alternatively AM could get "invested" in related businesses
(BoardMember2) If no opportunities exist I agree to an aggressive dividend schedule
As you can see there is no determination of timing other than FC's statement that short-term spendings need to be covered. The "aggressiveness" describes the overall split between retaining and paying out. That said, even board members assumed that dividends would resume in May with a 1:2 split of retained:payout. Finally, I am shocked by the amount of outrage caused by what could be considered an uneducated interpretation of some raw data. The resemblance of this being a deliberate attempt to prey on the lack of insight and patience of new investors is strong. As pointed out previously, the financials are hard to read without context and further explanations. I am committed to provide further information as it becomes available. However, some of the information which is important for company valuation is actually also crucial to pricing sales and thus falls within the realm of confidential information. Thus you cannot expect that this kind of information be released to the public. Anything else would be a level of transparency which is rather uncommon in these industries. Mental imagery of actual board meetings:  |
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Much needed clarification, thanks again Jutarul.
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I'm going to assume you're very young and thus educable, rather than a differently-enabled adult. This assumption might be unreasonable (and I'm a bit worried that it is), but noblesse oblige dictates I err on the side of kindness. So here's ur learningz for the day: While certain philosophers insist that reality doesn't exist outside of perception, this concept is for grownups, so don't try to think about it just yet. While you're still young, this is all that you need to know: When NotLambchop is reasonably sure, bet your life on it. Unlike drool, scribbles and malformed thinkings you make with your own brain, NotLambchop's reasonable assumptions are, indeed, reasonable. Take NotLambchop's word for it and stop acting out. Kids these days  Bravo, sir. I suppose when you have nothing else to use, it's quite pathetic to finally resort to name calling and then to follow it up with only reaffirming your "reasonable assumptions." Although that is to be expected, isn't it? You don't have anything else. It's ok though because you'll eagerly come back, type out another post to proclaim your ill-conceived thoughts, tack on some mild insult, and take false comfort in that what you say actually matters. Go on, we're all waiting. I would kindly ask that you please take this debate elsewhere, thanks. |
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I was merely providing a possible explanation as to what the "Materials" asset could consist of and where the May funds could've gone. It's well understood AM has been partnering with Allied Control to establish hardware and immersion cooling for potential franchisees, these are the most recent updates that I found. Now it's just waiting to see how it turns out, for better or worse.
The May dividends pretty much exactly fund the June batch. Alright, it's just waiting to see how friedcat executes in the coming weeks then. |
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I was merely providing a possible explanation as to what the "Materials" asset could consist of and where the May funds could've gone. It's well understood AM has been partnering with Allied Control to establish hardware and immersion cooling for potential franchisees, these are the most recent updates that I found. Now it's just waiting to see how it turns out, for better or worse. |
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During all the irrational panic, has no one paid any attention to the immersion cooling portion? According to page 3, production of the PCBs, immersion tanks, and their assembly started on May 8th. Seems to explain the lack of May dividends and why much of the assets consists of "materials" (according to the financial statements). https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByWHHc0u_thNdzB3c2hvVzJkcTQ/editAnyone else curious when they come online? |
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