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401  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Supreme Court pick Brett Kavanaugh on: September 30, 2018, 09:01:15 PM
Well if Trump nominates another serial rapist and liar then its not hard to imagine them not getting a (if they lose the senate) lame duck nom through lol!

And with thus deceleration of guilt you along with much of the irrational left have entirely abandoned the presumption innocence so fundamental for society to exist as anything other then a tyranny of the powerful.

...

The right is allowed to assert Kavanaugh is innocent but the left can't claim Kavanaugh is guilty or we broke the world LOL fucking hypocrites.

Congratulations to the right for trying to subvert due process by assuming every white christian male is innocent and an investigation is never required when the white christian male denies it, you have become part of the reason the world is laughing at America!

You unintentionally got this part exactly right.

Everyone liberals and conservatives, Christians and atheists, black and white are entitled to the presumption of innocence. The burden of proof always rests on the accuser as it must.

If you abandon this principle you go a long way towards breaking the foundation that makes freedom possible.

Investigation is fine provided it is a genuine search for truth. The Senate should have carried it out as they are the ones empowered by the constitution with the power of the subpoena and the duty to vet nominees but if they want to outsource this role to the FBI that is their right.

The article below highlights the importance of this issue. I quoted a small amount of it below but the entire piece is worth reading.

Kavanaugh: America’s Dreyfus Affair
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/kavanaugh-america-dreyfus-affair/comment-page-2/
Quote from: Rod Dreher
It’s not that I believe Kavanaugh is innocent. I think it is possible that he is guilty of what Ford accuses him of. But I believe he is not guilty, in the sense that there is not nearly enough evidence to judge him guilty of the accusation. Ford has nothing to support her accusation but her accusation. Kavanaugh strongly denies it, as you know, and he has offered evidence (e.g., his summer calendar) that he could not have been where he was supposed to have been. And, none of the people Ford has said could corroborate the event say they were there.

If we allow Kavanaugh’s nomination to go down on the basis of unsupported accusations, then we set a terrible precedent. We give a veto to anyone who makes an accusation against a nominee, however groundless. What strikes me is that liberals assume his guilt because he belongs to a class, and has an identity, that they despise: upper-class white male conservative. If you read commentary from liberals on social media and elsewhere, it is shocking how openly they dismiss Kavanaugh’s defense because he is white and male and “privileged” — never mind that Ford comes from and lives in the same social class. Liberals would quite rightly reject the idea that a witness deserves to be disbelieved because she is poor, black, and female. By many liberals, Kavanaugh’s race, sex, and class are held to be evidence of his guilt. This should not be all that surprising to people who have been following campus political discourse, but it seems that now liberals — elite ones, anyway, in media and politics — have turned the public square into the Oberlin campus.

What was so galvanizing to many of us yesterday, hearing Kavanaugh’s opening statement, and seeing Sen. Lindsey Graham’s passionate defense of Kavanaugh, was that this is not a man who is willing to passively accept the fate that liberals have decreed for deplorable people like him. He may yet go down, but he will not have gone down without a fight. I thought last night that maybe, just maybe, this will be a turning point, a point in which not just conservatives, but all people — even old-fashioned liberals — will stand up to this ideological madness, this bullying.
...
That’s why defending Kavanaugh is not strictly about defending Kavanaugh. It’s about fighting the mob, and defending some sort of rational process by which we discern truth and falsity, guilt and innocence. It’s about standing up to the mob — on Capitol Hill, on campuses, in newsrooms, and in elite institutions — that determine guilt based on identity. As the reader above said, this is about self-protection — not in a selfish sense, but in the (old-fashioned liberal) sense of protecting the processes that are our best chance of establishing fairness. I have sons, and I have a daughter. If any of them are ever sexually assaulted, or are accused of sexual assault, I want them to be treated fairly. I do not want my children to be privileged or un-privileged, based on the color of their skin, their sex, their social class, their religion, or anything else.

There was a time when this was the goal that most Americans aspired to

402  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Supreme Court pick Brett Kavanaugh on: September 30, 2018, 05:17:02 PM
Well if Trump nominates another serial rapist and liar then its not hard to imagine them not getting a (if they lose the senate) lame duck nom through lol!

And with thus deceleration of guilt you along with much of the irrational left have entirely abandoned the presumption innocence so fundamental for society to exist as anything other then a tyranny of the powerful.

You have joined with the radicals in their preposterous belief that an accusation alone determines guilt and are willing to condemn a man on that treacherous grounds.

The Democratic Party has now announced that every straight Christian white man will be guilty until proven innocent wherever they hold power. This used to just be SJWs on campus. Now it’s their whole party.
403  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Supreme Court pick Brett Kavanaugh on: September 30, 2018, 06:55:26 AM
Trump says FBI probe into Kavanaugh is a ‘blessing in disguise’
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/09/29/trump-says-fbi-probe-into-kavanaugh-is-a-blessing-in-disguise/amp/
Quote
The reopened FBI investigation into Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh is “a blessing in disguise,” President Trump said Saturday – insisting he is not contemplating a replacement for his embattled would-be associate justice.

“I don’t need a backup plan,” Trump said. “I think he’s going to be fine.”

“Having the FBI go out and do a thorough investigation, whether it’s three days or seven days, I think it’s going to be less than a week… I actually think it will be a blessing in disguise,” Trump told reporters on the South Lawn of the White House as he departed for a rally in West Virginia. “It will be a good thing.”
404  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Supreme Court pick Brett Kavanaugh on: September 28, 2018, 06:29:32 PM
Senate committee advances Judge Kavanaugh to full chamber for final confirmation vote
https://www.google.com/amp/www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-brett-kavanaugh-vote-20180928-story,amp.html
Quote
The Senate Judiciary Committee has voted along party lines, 11-10, to send federal judge Brett Kavanaugh’s Supreme Court nomination to the the full chamber for a final confirmation vote, less than one full day after a series of dramatic hearings in which a California professor accused the jurist of sexually assaulting her while both were in high school.
405  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Supreme Court pick Brett Kavanaugh on: September 27, 2018, 11:27:12 PM


Wow what a statement. Here is the video its worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQF9e4y1LQM
406  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Supreme Court pick Brett Kavanaugh on: September 27, 2018, 06:38:48 PM
We are moving away from rule of law and towards rule of power away from freedom and towards tyranny.

There is not a single man in the country who could not be potentially brought down by the playbook unleashed during this nomination.

It's not surprising really. These tactics have a long history and they work.

Show me the man and I'll show you the crime
https://m.oxfordeagle.com/2018/05/09/show-me-the-man-and-ill-show-you-the-crime/
Quote from: Michael Henry
Lavrentiy Beria, the most ruthless and longest-serving secret police chief in Joseph Stalin’s reign of terror in Russia and Eastern Europe, bragged that he could prove criminal conduct on anyone, even the innocent.

“Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime” was Beria’s infamous boast. He served as deputy premier from 1941 until Stalin’s death in 1953, supervising the expansion of the gulags and other secret detention facilities for political prisoners. He became part of a post-Stalin, short-lived ruling troika until he was executed for treason after Nikita Khrushchev’s coup d’etat in 1953.

Beria targeted “the man” first, then proceeded to find or fabricate a crime. Beria’s modus operandi was to presume the man guilty, and fill in the blanks later. By contrast, under the United States Constitution, there’s a presumption of innocence that emanates from the 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendments, as set forth in Coffin vs. U.S. (1895).
407  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The difference between science and religion on: September 26, 2018, 01:16:26 AM
Nationalism, politics can unite people just as well, and unite them long-term.

No it can't not on non trivial time horizons. Nationalism and politics require a common cooperative foundation to sustain them. Inertia can only holds things together for a limited time.

Similarly your stated purpose of competitive reproductive and genetic supremacy is barren ground to organise a society around. We saw this tried in the 1940s and the horrors it leads to.

You are correct that every human theocracy is and will continue to be terrible but that is a separate topic related to human ignorance, and lust for power.

We are not going to agree so I am going to give you the last word in this conversation.

I will leave you with a different book recommendation since you were not interested in the religious one. Here is a science fiction series related to the topics discussed above. It is totally free of any talk of God.


For those that like science fiction I recently read the Doom Star Series by Vaughn Hepner. It is interesting social commentary underneath a good story.
https://www.amazon.com/Star-Soldier-Doom-Book-ebook/dp/B003SNJVH4

It envisions a dystopian future where humanity has terraformed and spread throughout the solar system and traditional religion appears to have has died out or been suppressed.

Humanity has splintered into various ideological factions. Earth is under the control of a stifling planet wide socialism. Mars and Venus are under the control of genetically engineered super humans who believe their superiority gives them the right to rule. Jupiter is controlled by philosopher kings who value only logic. Total laissez-faire capitalism dominates the outer planets and on the edges of the solar system a group seeks to create the ultimate controllable soldier by mixing man and machine.

As the story progress the various groups compete for dominance committing ever more horrific acts of evil that are completely justified by their various philosophies. It is quite clear that in this future humanity is in danger of extinction as the self-inflected horrors worsen and billions start to die.

The series is subtle social commentary the reader slowly realizes that while some ideological groups are better then others they are all pretty bad.

It is a vision of a future without God where religion in the form of various ideological and political constructs is very much alive and well.
408  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The difference between science and religion on: September 25, 2018, 07:34:56 PM

Common myths establish an immediate trust between strangers and allow for unimpeded cooperation.

That is why people who otherwise would kill each other work together and trust each other when they believe in the same religious or political dogma.

This of course has nothing to do if the underlying dogma is true or not.

...

Cooperative myths do indeed establish trust between strangers but such a process is self limited if the myths are false.

Cooperation forms a foundation that society builds itself upon. It allows for the unfolding of potential into higher orders of development. If the shared beliefs are false, that foundation will eventually fail and the society with it.

With increasing cooperation the power and understanding of a society grows progressively with time. Such understanding will explore and and expose any demonstrable untruths in the shared belief structure.

When this happens the common basis for cooperation fails and the society fragments and starts the process of collapse.

What is universe changing, however, is an inclusive paradigm that allows for genuine total and voluntary cooperation that cannot ever be falsified with progress. This is what is achieved by grounding ones foundation for cooperation in God.

God cannot be falsified, is entirely consistent with our knowledge of truth, and maximizes cooperation over time.

You are certainly free to reject God and attempt to ground your reality in some other faith. That is exactly what you have done with your embrace of nihilistic principles.

You can live your life as though your existence is simply chance.
You can deny any ultimate purpose to your existence.
You can even decide that you have no inherent value or worth.

In the long run, however, these are not viable beliefs. They have no future because they don't form the necessary foundation needed to sustain cooperation and hence life over time.
409  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The difference between science and religion on: September 25, 2018, 04:46:12 AM
Give me your best example of when God intervened to make "things that work".  I fail to see any "hand of God" in this universe.

You answered this question yourself you just don't realise it.

That is the only reason why...  Cooperation and socialization.

What does God have to do with cooperation. This is a challenging topic so I will start with the comments of miscreanity who commented on it earlier.

What is actually the worst possible outcome is to have one strategy, religion, or culture adopted by everyone.

This is the point I disagree with. I think we both agree that the optimal way to increase degrees of freedom for individuals is to allow and enable instead of controlling. A universal strategy is an essential foundation that enables freedom. Without that, we have the situation that is developing now with varying viewpoints where some sets are progressing toward destruction and others are being dragged into declining entropy. Competition can take place when there is room for growth but on a globally saturated scale, nobody wins.

Reproductive strategy is likely to become essentially irrelevant for humanity, possibly within our lifetimes. It seems inevitable that our existing biological bodies will give way to different forms that will carry us off-planet. At that point, allowing and enabling all individuals to thrive in a constructive environment becomes paramount. What then is the protocol that keeps that freedom from becoming destructive? Of course, my thinking is that the protocol is outlined in the Christian bible.

This relationship between God and cooperation is as fundamental as it is necessary. God breaks us free from ultimately self-destructive conflict and enables ever higher orders of cooperative synergy. The more we bring ourselves into alignment with God the greater the levels of cooperation that become possible.

I discussed this point in some detail here:
See: Superrationality and the Infinite
410  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The difference between science and religion on: September 25, 2018, 01:18:27 AM
LOL.  It is like offering a pack of cigarettes to someone who quit smoking 30 years ago.  No thanks.

Actually you have it backwards what I am doing it's much more akin to trying to talk a 30 year smoker into quitting.
I would point to the 20+ studies I have highlighted over the last few years in the Health and Religion thread to back that up.

We agree on a lot of your points but not the assumptions at the heart of your "faith".

I agree that nature tries things via processes called evolution and emergence.
I agree that Earth is one planet in a universe of countless other planets and their are likely many others very similar to it.
I agree that the the prospects of a long term future for homo sapien biological life appear quite grim.

But I am not a believer in your nihilistic faith so we part ways when you go into those core doctrines.

You cannot prove our the existence of our universe is a pure lottery this is doctrine.
You cannot prove the fact that we are here is pure chance. This is faith.
You cannot prove that we are not valuable or special this is a part of your nihilistic religion.
 
All differences aside, however, we do agree on one final point.

We agree that:
Things that work, continue to work, and things that have some impediment, get destroyed and die.

Unfortunately I appear to lack the necessary eloquence to show you that faith in God is the most important of the "Things that work".
411  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Supreme Court pick Brett Kavanaugh on: September 25, 2018, 12:40:37 AM
Kavanaugh denies sexual misconduct in Fox News exclusive: 'I know I'm telling the truth'
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/09/24/kavanaugh-denies-sexual-misconduct-in-fox-news-exclusive-know-im-telling-truth.html

Interesting video interview with Kavanaugh and his wife.
412  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Supreme Court pick Brett Kavanaugh on: September 25, 2018, 12:37:47 AM
So let's try again - why no investigation yet? Two women, two separate incidents, both asking for investigation so if they're lying that would be a huge boost for Trump, McConnell, et al ahead of midterms.

Oh I don't know maybe because there is no accusation of a crime that is not well beyond the statute of limitations..

Or maybe its because all 8 of the people the two accusers state were present at the time of the assault are already on record with various media outlets and all of their testimony supports Kavanaugh.

Or maybe it's because the demands for investigation have every appearance of a transparent political ploy that has nothing to do with seeking truth.

Or perhaps it's because this is ultimately a question of suitability for office and the constitution clearly assigns this duty to the Senate which also has the power of the subpoena to carry it out.
413  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The difference between science and religion on: September 24, 2018, 05:02:28 AM

The whole system is just overly complicated if the primary purpose of the creation was a specific member of the Ape family to worship and believe in the creator. You would have to be an idiot to design something like this if you just wanted obedient primates who would believe in you.

If I was God, I would just...


Who said anything about obedient primates being the primary purpose of creation?

Why would he create life in the first place? What would be the purpose?

This is a very deep question and it goes far beyond the scope of this thread.

If you have a genuine interest in this topic the best answer I have come across is the following book.

Way of God: Derech Hashem by Moshe Chaim Luzzatto.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/087306769X/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1/159-3751462-6767111?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=NM9R7T16A9G2147WGMJX&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=1944687722&pf_rd_i=1598264672

It is an older classic 18th century religious book. It is very logical and is set out in parts that are divided into a few chapters. The parts are:
1. Fundamentals, covering The Creator, Man, Human Responsibility.
2. How Providence Works.
3. The Soul, Inspiration and Prophecy,.
4. Serving God, Love and Fear of God, Prayer.

There is a class in Seattle that went through this book chapter by chapter taught by Mark Spiro. Audio recordings of that class are available for free here.

http://www.livingjudaism.com/the-way-of-god.html

Both Moshe Chaim Luzzatto and Mark Spiro approach the issue from the Jewish tradition but I think anyone interested in God or religion will find it worthwhile. I did and I am not Jewish.
414  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Supreme Court pick Brett Kavanaugh on: September 24, 2018, 02:18:27 AM

Second Kavanaugh Accuser Materializes Alleging Sexual Misconduct At Yale
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-23/second-kavanaugh-accuser-materializes-alleging-sexual-misconduct-yale
Quote
For Ramirez, the sudden attention has been unwelcome, and prompted difficult choices. She was at first hesitant to speak publicly, partly because her memories contained gaps because she had been drinking at the time of the alleged incident. In her initial conversations with The New Yorker, she was reluctant to characterize Kavanaugh’s role in the alleged incident with certainty.

After six days of carefully assessing her memories and consulting with her attorney, Ramirez said that she felt confident enough of her recollections to say that she remembers Kavanaugh had exposed himself at a drunken dormitory party, thrust his penis in her face, and caused her to touch it without her consent as she pushed him away. Ramirez is now calling for the F.B.I. to investigate Kavanaugh’s role in the incident. “I would think an F.B.I. investigation would be warranted,” she said.
...
Meanwhile, lawyer Michael Avenatti - best known for representing adult entertainer Stephanie Clifford, said on Twitter that he represents a woman "with credible information regarding Judge Kavanaugh," and that his client is not Ramirez.

In a statement, Kavanaugh wrote, "This alleged event from 35 years ago did not happen. The people who knew me then know that this did not happen, and have said so. This is a smear, plain and simple. I look forward to testifying on Thursday about the truth, and defending my good name—and the reputation for character and integrity I have spent a lifetime building—against these last-minute allegations.
415  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The difference between science and religion on: September 24, 2018, 01:06:36 AM

Are you sure?  I thought he loves people.  Why is he purposely killing us?
...


He does. That is why he is saving us inspite of ourselves.

Everybody dies. That is inevitable. The only variable is exactly how that death occurs.

The only offer of life after death on the table is through God and it requires an act of faith.
416  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The difference between science and religion on: September 24, 2018, 12:07:17 AM

Humm in a single post you managed to:

1) Demand others personally ask God to manifest before you.
2) Insist God eliminate a living species from the planet at your request.
3) Proclaim that God not does not exist.
4) Call believers of God freaks.
5) Break into laughter presumably at your own wit.

I don't see much point in further discussion. You clearly have made up your mind and show no interest in reflection or exploring the topic in a non superficial manner.

I will bow out of this thread and leave it to those with an interest in this flavor of discourse.

You are still here?

Did God create the flesh eating bacteria? Yes or no?

I bet you will dodge to answer this question.

God created everything including bacteria. He also created something far more evil then bacteria.

God created mankind the only creation on Earth that purposefully and freely chooses evil with full knowledge of his actions.

God created a mankind so morally warped that many individuals choose deny evil actually exists or ignore it in favor of expediency.

Why does God tolerate the most fallen of his creations to exist? Why does he not snuff us all out like you want to do to your bacteria? Perhaps it's because we can grow and with time and effort rectify ourselves.

Here is a song for you. It's about a cruel God that lets three innocent people die in a horrible car wreck. Or something like that.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cP8lCapcqwM
417  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The difference between science and religion on: September 23, 2018, 10:12:13 AM

So he is also deaf.  I have asked you to ask him to post on this forum with no avail.

How about all you religious freaks ask him to eliminate the flesh eating bacteria?

He will not answer because he does not exist. lol.

Humm in a single post you managed to:

1) Demand others personally ask God to manifest before you.
2) Insist God eliminate a living species from the planet at your request.
3) Proclaim that God not does not exist.
4) Call believers of God freaks.
5) Break into laughter presumably at your own wit.

I don't see much point in further discussion. You clearly have made up your mind and show no interest in reflection or exploring the topic in a non superficial manner.

I will bow out of this thread and leave it to those with an interest in this flavor of discourse.
418  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The difference between science and religion on: September 22, 2018, 06:36:18 PM
Why did God create a universe that allows for human suffering? Perhaps because understanding and then overcoming evil is necessary to achieve the highest good.

Right. So instead of just creating humans who are capable of achieving the "highest good" on their own, which an omnipotent god would easily be able to do, he decided instead to condemn millions of innocent children to a life of torment and suffering.

Your God is a maniac, and you are morally bankrupt if you try to justify children suffering in the name of "the greater good".

Are you equally torn up about the millions of animals killed in terror every day to feed humanity or the plants ripped from the ground and consumed to feed those animals?

The natural world is full of evil and good. The fundamental difference between humans and those animals is that we alone have knowledge of good and evil.

With this knowledge comes the power to transform it. To rectify and redeem the evil in ourselves and in so doing become something more then a hyper intelligent animal.

The world is not a permanent playpen for our coddling and amusement. It is a reality that calls to us and demands we grow into something better then what we are.
419  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The difference between science and religion on: September 22, 2018, 06:23:27 PM

You missed the point... Christians claim their god is omnibenevolent... which itself is a claim that god would prevent all evil from existing... it is not my argument, that is the Christian argument...


Yes and I replied highlighting the problems with this logic.

Omnibenevolence does not demand God prevent all evil from existing.
420  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The difference between science and religion on: September 22, 2018, 06:06:30 PM
So what you are saying, is for every evil thing your God chose to create*, there is some technological advancement that we are yet to make that will undo its harm. So basically, science will fix the evil mess your God left behind? Got it.

In the long run the moral truth is more important then the technological truth. Science is just a cooperative social system. It's really just time and effort applied in a systemic way. What matters more then science is the foundation science is built upon. What sustains science and keeps its ends directed towards the good? Get that right and the technological progress will fall into place.

If you assume a god did create this universe, he/she/it is clearly monstrous, and deserves no respect or worship whatsoever.

Why did God create a universe that allows for human suffering? Perhaps because understanding and then overcoming evil is necessary to achieve the highest good.
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