Hey Pablo,
If you were to offer discounted pre-registration for butterbot hosting, I'd be interested in securing a spot early. It would be extra nice if I could pay with BTC.
-NginUS
Ngin, Let me look into this, we don't have such a plan in place yet and I'm not sure if we can put one together. I will get back to you in a couple of days on this. Pablo. |
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Is it possible to make a single order with more than an item on the same shop? Should I proceed by adding the second item in the notes?
Thanks in advance.
Hi Fabrizio, Please add each item URL on the form (not the notes field), you can order as many items as you want on one invoice. Please let me know if you need anything at all  . Pablo. |
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Hey Pablo,
Wondering how business is going and if Bitsumo is still going strong?
Was planning on a few more orders if things aren't too busy at the moment!
Ken, Business is going great; shoot over whatever you need, we'll be happy to take care of it . Pablo. |
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Got my products in Bolivia in just a couple of weeks; very accommodating seller, very impressed with the high quality of the products received - will definitely buy again.
Pablo.
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Hi , This is a partial list of items we can NOT process; U.S. law is very stringent and we can not give the appearance of impropriety if we wish to stay in business, please use your common sense when placing orders: 1. Any sort of medication. 2. Narcotics and narcotics paraphernalia or related items. 3. Weapons, ammunition, or weapons parts or replacements We very rarely refuse an order, maybe 1-3 a month, but we want to make it clear that these items are no-go. I am here for whatever anyone needs or wants to discuss. Pablo. I guess chemicals used for chemistry stuff can't be ordered? Hi , Correct, no chemicals. Sorry for any inconvenience. Pablo. |
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********************* Promo Time!!!! ********************* We thought we would do something special for our 1000'th post, so here goes: The next 10 people who purchase a copy of the bot and/or a Renewal Code (for people who already own Butter) AND email me afterwards ( Pablo@Butter-Bot.com), will get a free Butter Bot Shirt or cap with free shipping! These are in very limited supply, they were basically made for equity partners and investors, so not many people will have them.    Hope you guys like the promo . Pablo. |
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We will probably be including alternative strategy modules with V3; MACD will likely be a strategy then. We will thoroughly back test all strategies to make sure they are likely to be profitable before we release them, but in principle, I don't see a problem with this; we are all for freedom of choice Smiley.
Pablo.
Hi Pablo,
Any chance that V3 will include the ability to perform those "INTER" exchange transactions (specifically BTC-E). These are the transactions that we spoke about a few weeks ago, where the bot would look for an arbitrage like opportunity between the alt-coins on the BTC-E exchange, as well as perhaps an arbitrage like opportunity between USD and the Russian RUB.
Thanks again for all the work that you and your team have done and continue to do.
Pangia, We don't have that specifically in the pipeline but we are in the planning stages of a project that should allow you to do things like that with the bot; that's in the pipeline for later next year and if we get it right it should eventually be able to do arbitrage stuff like this. Still in the planning stages, still can't talk too much about it but we would like to develop it that way. Pablo. |
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So, full circle as to what we really want to see added to this bot. Stop-loss? For me, no. it defies the trading strategy that by nature is the best stop-loss already; if set right. Profit checking? Some have asked that the bot make sure it is not making a losing trade. Again,this defies the principals of this type of trading. This system will make trades for loses specifically because it then always has you in the most favorable market position. If it failed to get me into the market because the trade would have resulted in a small loss, and the market then gains 100 points, I would be very unhappy indeed. In fact, the most recent huge gain was immediately predicated by a trade resulting in a small loss... to get me back into the market. The "profit checking" suggested would have negated this gain. No place for that in this type of trading. Magic wand to tell us exactly when we are at the top or bottom of a trend? Yes please. Lol. But since there is no magic in trading, I am very satisfied with a good, solid machine that based on good numbers and research returned a damn-near 50% profit in the last 30 days. Hey Pablo, So with this being said, after the explanation which preceded it, then I want what he wants. Which would be none of the additions we were talking about recently except maybe the new trading engine improvements should they pan out. Plus profit/loss tracking, please. Sounds Fair , We will still improve stop loss but the new trading algorithm is taking precedence. We'll see . On an unrelated matter, we may have some other improvements you guys have been wanting out pretty soon . Stay tuned. Pablo. |
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Very interesting discussion these last few posts, especially now that we are so high that a correction is ever more likely. Perhaps things are different now vs. April but still my gut feeling is that this just sounds too good to be true (no need waste keyb strokes grilling me for posting a personal view, eh?!). I'm quite curious and have setup a poll: http://micropoll.com/a/mpview/1146756-3814481(cannot figure out how to embed nicely in the post...) I've also been emailing the developer regarding a workaround for those who e.g. have to go to work and would like to have Butter Bot installed in two computers but actively running alternately in one of them. Running several instances simultaneously is NOT recommended! Sharing it below until a better solution such as hosting is offered, it has been confirmed as OK by the developer. Take care ************** Workaround for 2 chrome instances running Butterbot:To be able to ensure Butterbot is running 24/7 I'll have to run it at work on one pc and then close it at the end of the day, reopening it at home on another pc. I have butterbot installed on both Chromes (work / home) but configured with different API key/secret sets. I will be activating/deactivating the API sets manually from the exchange dashboard (possible in Bitstamp, you would have to check the other exchanges) to have either one or the other instance of Butterbot actually actively trading, thus avoiding having them active simultaneously while being able to have both pcs on all the time with their respective Chromes and butterbot instances running. Are you doing this so you will have physical control over your bot at all times; i.e. at home & at work? I have tested multiple bots on the same account, I don't think you have to activate/deactivate your APIs when doing this... just start/stop the different instances of the bot. I am far from an API or bot expert, but in my experience, Butter does not seem to be a poll-hog, so even if you overlapped, I am thinking it would not really spam the exchange with requests (just thinking aloud here), and I don't see how the bots would ever trade "against each other" with like settings. Interesting & not a bad solution. Another, and the one that I use, is Remote Desktop (RDP). It is super easy & convenient. As noted prior, I have multiple machines running different bots as well as miners. They are all set to "listen" on RDP, so I can log into them remotely from any computer, tablet or even my smart phone. So, like you, I have instances running both at home and office (all on different accounts), but can access any and all of them with a click from a single screen. Hey , I can't wait for hosting to go live . Meanwhile, both solutions are correct, the enable and disable is very safe and very efficient to do; this question was geared toward someone who can't have a single computer running all the time. If you can run a single machine all the time, then you can run multiple instance of the bot on the same machine as long as they use different API keys and different settings . I hope that helps, please let me know if you guys need anything at all. Pablo. |
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Stop-loss:
EMA cross-over trading _is_ stop loss. It is designed to keep you in a bull market and out of a bear market. Attempting to "add" a stop-loss to this system creates a double-negative and short-circuits the system. You will lose. If you try to bail on your position as the crash occurs, you are selling against the pressure and you will lose much more then if you wait for the snap-back.
I am using reverse EMA strategy so I am unsure if it applies. " If you try to bail on your position as the crash occurs, you are selling against the pressure and you will lose much more then if you wait for the snap-back." I'd also like to point out that some of the same arguments are being used in reverse on either side of the issue. If a flash crash happens says side A, then EMA will keep get you out of it. There is no guarantee the market will go up again we are told. People pointed out that there is no guarantee that the price will recover. Alright, that is probably true. Now the same point is being used (the snap back "will happen") as-if it were guaranteed.... Perhaps we need to all get on the same page. =========================== Either way, I understand both positions to the best of my ability. =======[Discount Code for Butter (10% off)]========= https://butter-bot.com/?r=f5a17f5bUse my referal code cause' im sooo cute!    You'll get an extra month free, it's all on me! A good experiment for you would be to buy Stephen Haas' Simple Trade Bot. It is versatile, and will let you do most if not all of what you are suggesting. I have run it side-by-side with Butter for months. It has never come close to matching Butter's performance. RSI, "reverse" EMA, MACD all seem like a great idea; until the market runs away from it and strands the bot. With the different bots I run (if it is available, I buy it), it is the simplest one that constantly makes me the most money. There are some features I want very much and am looking forward to, but I would be quite happy if they left the trade engine exactly as it is. I keep coming back to it from the more complex machines. I have a feeling you don't fully understand those concepts if you just try them out and conclude they aren't profitable. MACD reacts faster to market movements then the MA crossovers butter-bot uses. As far as the haasonline bot goes, it's pretty nice and has a lot more options, but the trading systems he currently has implemented for example macd is not according to the spec, so it's hard to judge. San1ty, We will probably be including alternative strategy modules with V3; MACD will likely be a strategy then. We will thoroughly back test all strategies to make sure they are likely to be profitable before we release them, but in principle, I don't see a problem with this; we are all for freedom of choice . Pablo. |
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Problem, I already reset my PC last night this morning. Do the console logs survive across resets?
Hey , No, they don't. Let's watch your bot and if the situation repeats itself please send me your logs then . I suspect this is a non-repeat situation. Pablo. |
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"Flash-crash" protection:
When trading manually, the best protection in a flash-crash is to walk away & go eat dinner. If you join the panic buy/sell, you lose. You are _always_ far ahead when you wait and catch the rebound caused by the heavy market pressure. I have had great success programming the bot to do this automatically. It often means slowing the trade down; you need to wait for the snap-back.
I think you are referring to the notion of market corrections. Any trend that is too one sided is bound to retrace. (applies in both bull and bear markets) ========================== While I am on the topic of retracements. Last night I used B-Bot in a new configuration and I noticed that it kept trying to buy repeatedly after it already bought using all available funds (whatever was made available to it). It appears that it repeatedly sends emails even though it has already used all available funds. The same was true of selling. It kept sending messages that the sell trigger was reached despite already having sold everything available to it. =======[Discount Code for Butter (10% off)]========= https://butter-bot.com/?r=f5a17f5bUse my referal code cause' im sooo cute! You'll get an extra month free, it's all on me! Hey , I am dropping you a PM right now so we can get your console logs and debug that situation . Pablo. |
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Really you should not be using the BOT if you do not understand that it is not 'willy nilly', the whole point is that over time you will see an increase over a 'normal' human trader, but that may include taking it in the ass once in a while....
There is a 'run test' function and whilst it is a bit basic, it will give you an idea.
For example the recommended settings would have made a significant loss on Mtgox over the past few days.
It gave me enough of an idea to understand the functionality is not suitable for trading in such a market at the moment, as it stands the BOT is not quite polished enough, and yep I know it makes money, but is also takes rather more 'hits' than it should.
Personally I'm of the mind that the product is in need of significantly more 'safety mechanisms', but I also do not think that a simple 'stop loss' is the answer, specifically because it can be exploited by other traders and in some cases may well be a significant contributing factor to a 'flash crash'.
That said and despite the BOT going mad and clearing out all my FIAT, I have still managed to manually trade the account to a significantly better position that the BOT over the last two days.
There are some rather 'shitty' patterns emerging from gox at the moment indicating some very rough BOT trading algorithms.
I agree with your assessment. It takes more hits than it really should. Which like it or not, deducts from future gains. Right now I am almost finished writing my own arbitrage bot and testing it through it's paces. I too would like Butter Bot to add certain real time simulation features. I think a simulation feature is better than turning on the bot and letting it do trading. This will help you get an idea of the decisions the bot makes in different situations without risking BTC or USD. ------------------------ I would love it if they made a "secure-bot" to "get you out" of the market in the event of a flash crash. Just that feature alone is very useful if you don't intend to do actual EMA based trading. If you do want a bot to watch the current market conditions on a continual basis butter bot would be a good start if you understand the settings. I think they should package this separate from the normal butter bot set of features. ------------------------- There are also other types of already coded software based on ADX that don't take anywhere near "the number of hits" that butter bot takes. (not butter bots fault as ADX is just a better indicator IMO) There is one publicly available but someone decided the neuter the public code so that it didn't do anything other than prevent losses. I back tested the public version and while it wasn't written to make a profit, it back tested to the beginning of the year and retained 99% value of the currency traded. Had someone with experience redone it to actually "make a profit" it would have no doubt been better than the EMA based bots. Future version of butter bot will come with different strategies so that people can choose whatever type they prefer. Hey , All good ideas! V4 should come with alternate strategy modules, and we are looking at releasing a new and improved trading engine for Butter in the near future to make it even more profitable. Stay tuned. Pablo. This is when you mentioned it. Heh, I knew someone would provide a post . Well it is true, we are working on it, but there is nothing resolute yet. We are back testing several improvements to EMA and we still have to see if they pan out so the new engine is not a foregone conclusion, the new engine must be more profitable than the current one for us to upgrade it. I hope that answers your question . Pablo. |
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I'm still not getting it. I trust that you're the expert & that what you say must be the truth of the matter, but I'm failing to understand it myself.
If I sold at 90 following a rally that peaked at 100, and it either goes to 20 or 80, either way the bot will recognize the bottom curve & buy after the peak. I don't get why it sometimes waits to buy at a bottom curve that somehow got to be higher than the sell point. Why didn't it buy at the first lower peak point after the high point in the cycle where it sold in the first place, because it wasn't far below the sell point enough maybe?
How do these conditions where it trades at a loss develop anyway? Is there another way to protect against being nickel & dimed then by adding 'always profit' logic, since that's unadvisable?
I know you've mentioned that there's a new improved trading engine to be released in the near future. Will it be any better than 70/30 loss/profit? I'd be interested in hearing about how exactly it's been improved.
Hmmm, let me think about how we can go about this. I don't think I've said anything publicly about developing a new trading engine, we are looking into it but it's far from a done deal right now. We are always trying to optimize the trading strategy and reduce any possible losses . Pablo. |
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Ok, I guess I don't understand how it's 'trading suicide' if the market takes a downturn, or if there's a flash crash. Would you mind elaborating on why that is to help me understand?
I assume bitcoin will only appreciate, I take that as a given like gravity always being down. So if the market goes down it will obviously do so after having gone up, and there will have been a bot sell triggered after the bot realizes the rally has peaked- assuming I understand its MO correctly. What's different about if the bottom of the next curve is a little low like it usually is in a typical cycle, or if it's extremely low in the case of either a crash or a tapered downturn- either way, after the curve peaks the bot will recognize the bottom & buy again, right?
I don't see how having a layer of logic to say 'execute buy if buy price lower than sell price else hold for next down curve' could be suicide.
I guess I'm missing something as to why you wouldn't add that logic. Help me understand, please.
BassClef has made several good points. Ok, so imagine BTC is at 100 USD and your bot buys. Then BTC falls to 80 USD; with EMA your bot would have sold in the high to mid 90's, but with the "Never trade at a loss logic" you are now holding BTC at 80. Now several things can happen here, BTC can go to 60 or it can go to 200, there are no guarantees (no one can assure that BTC will rise over the long term either) so from a probablilistic point of view, you are better of with you BTC in the high 90's than you are with your BTC in the 80's because, yes, it could rally to 200, but it could also hit 20 and stay there. There are no guarantees in trading. I hope that helps you understand my point. There are several stop loss options that can be built in, I'm not saying anything bad about stop loss at all, I'm saying completely avoiding trades that will incur a loss is a very bad idea. Please let me know if you need anything at all . Pablo. |
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Thanks, Pablo.
I just want to chime in another thought on what my ideal stop loss function would look like.
I notice a lot of the time the bot will make trades that will lose money, not large sums, but enough that over time my account would get nickeled & dimed to a significant extent.
For example the first trade it ever did was selling low & buying high, and it didn't just happen that 1 random time- it's happening so often that it's indicating that it's a common occurance. So somehow the bot sees trends and does what it thinks is best even when it's not always best, and I can't help thinking there must be a way to code a subroutine to check for these scenarios and protect against their occuring.
If somehow the trading engine can be programmed to only make profits, and not trade at a loss in these cases when it does so, the savings would add up I think.
For people who are trading with smaller amounts of money, these 3-9% losses are more of an impact on their working capital, and thus their income potential, than those of us with larger sums which provide greater cushion to absorb these trading anomolies.
Hey , This has been suggested before, the issue with this idea is that it assumes BTC will always appreciate. You can code a routine where the bot checks buy price and only sells if its at a profit, that's amazingly easy, but it's trading suicide if the market takes a downturn or you have a flash crash. EMA provides pretty good protection against flash crashed with the shorter time frames, yes you get nickel and dimed (EMA will provide about 70% small loss trades to 30% solid profit trades) on some trades but we have to let the bot do it's job and make all those small losses plus your healthy profit back in the long term. I hope I've explained myself properly, please let me know if you have any questions . Pablo. |
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I just want to let you guys know that we are keeping a close eye on the thread and taking notes. So far: 1. Trade Log 2. Alterante Strategies 3. Stop loss. We are discussing how to prioritize all of these but we have a huge set of development tasks ahead of us. We will be sure to post once we know when we can push these out, most likely we can make a final call after hosting/altcoins are out . Look forward to more suggestions . Pablo. |
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Can't you try to integrate a stop-loss mechanism like this:
The bot actively compares the current market price against the market price of x minutes ago.
If there's a negative difference of x percent > automatically sell!
That way we'd at least be somewhat protected against a possible flash crash.
Hey Guys , Ok, so we understand that you guys want us to develop the Stop Loss mechanism. Given the discussion over the past few days, this has gained priority for us (we are, after all, guided by the community on what we develop), we are having some internal discussions on this right now; we will see if we can come up with a solution that works with EMA and I will post on this when we have something to report . Please keep the suggestions coming . Pablo. |
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Hi,
Got another question - what happens during a strong rise or drop, one that would trigger a buy/sell, but when it tries to do so, the API towards Bitstamp is being slow/unresponsive. It gives the notification that it will automatically recover - but will it keep trying and trying straight away, or will it just wait and try again at the next "Trade frequency"-point?
Thanks!
Hi Kami , It will hit the API periodically until it can execute the trade. I hope that answers your question, please let me know if you need anything at all . Pablo. |
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I began trading crypto earlier this year and found it difficult to track the movements and trends (especially overnight), so I've downloaded the Butter Bot demo and am intrigued by the moving averages, tweaking settings, etc.
I'm currently running the 30 minute trade frequency setting, but I'm wondering what would happen if there is to be another crash in the BTC market similar to April (which I suspect is coming soon). I was sitting in front of my computer when it happened in April, and as I recall, the market went from 260 USD down to 50 USD or so in the matter of 15-30 minutes. If my trade frequency is set to 30 minutes, isn't it possible that the bot could entirely miss the start and finish of the crash and I'd end up selling at 50, if this were to happen again? YES. Imho this is a weakness in the bot. Every selfrespecting bot should have a stop-loss percentage set based on the high it achieved while being bought. The bot should pull the latest ticker information every minute in between it's regular intervals to act upon the stop-loss. Hi Saan1ty , Interesting question. The bots Trailing Stop Loss (TSL) feature, does exactly that, it takes the highest value since you turned on the bot and sells all your BTC for fiat if price falls by the percentage specified. I say this every couple of pages: It is an easy feature to understand in principle, but it is very hard to use in combination with EMA and can result in losses if improperly set. The argument on this can go either way, if it were me, I would have my bot on a 30 or 15 minute interval and not use TSL; I would just rely on the bot to act correctly. Now a lot can go wrong in a flash crash/rocket recuperation, there is no magic setting that will protect you against all cases. A shorter time frame will make the bot more reactive, but it could follow false signals and incur some losses. In the end, you can't look at this in single trades, even if we are discussing large market movements, you have to look at it in aggregate over time or you are really just looking at noise. Please let me know if you need anything at all . Pablo. Hi thanks for the reply! It's close but it's not exactly what I mean: The system you currently have can abruptly stop trading when there is no reason to. I suggest a trailing stop loss per trade: I buy 10 BTC at 200, and have a stop loss set at 10 %: the market climbs to 250 and then drops to 225 (a drop of 250 = 10% of the high) therefor the bot executes a sell order. After this trade the stop loss should be reset untill you buy the next time based on the indicator. Also I notice you have to set the trading fee manually (this should be an api call to the exchange every X minutes to check what the trading fee is). Bitstamp has a trading fee based on your volume. Hey , I think I see what you mean, a sort of "step" stop loss. I will tell you up front that I am not the trading consultant so I can not judge how effective this would be, but I will bring it up with the appropriate people, strikes me as a sane suggestion . Pablo. |
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