At time of writing, 77.3% of a sample size of a thousand think they should get the tag. Where is it?
It's tucked away nicely under the rather large pile of money BFL has thrown at this forum. I doubt BFL has shipped 23% of their total orderbook (especially since 50% if it seems to have happened from Mar/Apr 2013). This means there are still people who have not received a unit that don't think they are a scam. If public opinion mattered, Casey Anthony would be in Jail, Michael Jackson would have been in jail and probably never died. Since there is a burden of proof here, it really doesn't matter what the public THINKS. |
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"Maybe your particular unit has too much of a gap between the heatsink and the chip"
Is there supposed to be a plate between the chip and the heat sync? My unit simply doesn't have that.
I was concerned that there was a good connection. So I had screwed it on fairly tight. Went through the whole damn process _AGAIN_. I found after only having the screws secure but not tight got me back up to ~3.5GH/s.
Still not where I was before I started messing with it. Perhaps the antec isn't good for this type of chip? Can someone recommend better thermal material?
The speed loss from over-tightening would indicate that the added pressure either warped something or you ended up with one side tighter than the other and only partial contact. I would suggest at this point to loosen all the screws and without breaking the paste, just barely snug the screws and power it up. Once I had a good rate showing I would then turn one of the screws a 1/4 turn tighter and see if anything changes. If the speed decreases, loosen that screw back that 1/4 turn and try another. It will be a slow and painstaking process, but if something is slightly warped, this may help to find a better fit and get your lost speed back. |
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You guys spout the "buy BTC instead of buying equipment" jingle over and over, yet the people(horses) reading you won't take heed (drink) just cause it is the proper thing to do.
Buying the mining equipment does 2 things, it gives you a tangible asset that you can see working on your pool charts and it gives you a non-liquid asset. BTC can be spent on a whim, a sudden drop in value can cause panic selling and a quick rise can cause profit-taking or a buy-in hoping it will rise higher. Last April, how many people happily sold at $50 only to buy back in at $100 or $150 or $200? How few actually were actually able to sell at $250? Fiat is something tangible people can understand well. BTC is like play money. I can remember trips to Hong Kong (where their unit is also dollars), but it was around $8HK to $1US. I saw people who would never consider spending $100US on something tossing out $800HK like it was a ten or twenty. They viewed it as play money and got burnt.
That is the perception of a lot of miners... BTC is just a medium to get fiat. Without the necessary discipline to put it away and ignore it, all the advice in the world matters not.
I have never said "buy BTC instead of buying equipment", that was never my argument. I am sure we can agree that people are not always rational and do not always make the best choices. There are various reasons why people may mine at a loss, but those reasons should not take precedent if your goal is profit. If your main goal is to make a profit mining then your estimated bitcoins earned better be greater then what your mining equipment cost (in bitcoin). Of course you will also want to factor in operating expenses, time value of money, ect. If miners estimate they will take a loss from mining operations and still buy the equipment, then profit is not their primary goal or they are not acting rationally. Just because it may be the perception of many miners does not mean it is a wise decision. Ah, no, you did not... "If you produce less bitcoins (in the life of the miner) then the miner cost (in bitcoins), then mining activities has created a loss " <-- Most of the time when people start using this argument, they also say that it would be better to spend that money on BTC and save it than purchacing the mining equipment as you'd have more money in the long run. That is why I used the horse and water analogy... if a person can buy and wait they should and would be ahead, but not everyone can. |
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I don't think anyone should buy it either but showing a projection at just short of 1 exahash in Jan 2015 is just silly. With free hardware and 0.5 J/GH you would lose money mining at that difficulty.
I agree. You should make a realistic growth rate at that level and work backward, kind of like: http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/8ef786093d You'd get a much clearer picture than expecting every miner on the planet to have 1PH by Dec 2014. |
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Hi All,
Do you by any chance know of the best and easiest way to purchase large amounts of bitcoin? ie 10000 + ?
Thank you.
The best way is not going to be the easiest way. The easiest way would probably be to make an account at Mt Gox, get verified and then deposit the money and make your purchase. The downside to this is that by the time you have purchased 10,000 coins you will probably have driven the price up in the process and spent more than you intended to. The best way would probably be to not only get a MtGox account, but also get one at BTCe, cryptsy, etc and then spread out your purchases to not drive the price up so far. This would be a pain in the rear, but would end up being the cheaper route. Basically you are looking at time vs money. The less time you want to spend doing it, the more money it will cost you and vice versa. |
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Many years back, the gold companies knew they could use leeching techniques to extract minute quantities of gold from huge piles of dirt. Back then it was abandoned as too expensive. Now that the value of gold has gone up, they are starting to use these techniques to get that gold. Through inflation, it now cost more to leech that gold than it would have when they refused to do it, yet the added value makes it worthwhile. The major mining concerns care about fiat, it's only certain individuals who care about holding the gold, mainly due to the amount needed to invest.
The gold will get mined sooner or later, it just depends on the cost vs the reward in Fiat. The same is true of BTC. Few people are able to buy and hold when compared to all of the people mining. The paying BTC to mine more BTC only works for certain individuals. To repeat what has been said to me... You can lead a horse to water.......
I am not sure I completely understand your analogy. You guys spout the "buy BTC instead of buying equipment" jingle over and over, yet the people(horses) reading you won't take heed (drink) just cause it is the proper thing to do. Buying the mining equipment does 2 things, it gives you a tangible asset that you can see working on your pool charts and it gives you a non-liquid asset. BTC can be spent on a whim, a sudden drop in value can cause panic selling and a quick rise can cause profit-taking or a buy-in hoping it will rise higher. Last April, how many people happily sold at $50 only to buy back in at $100 or $150 or $200? How few actually were actually able to sell at $250? Fiat is something tangible people can understand well. BTC is like play money. I can remember trips to Hong Kong (where their unit is also dollars), but it was around $8HK to $1US. I saw people who would never consider spending $100US on something tossing out $800HK like it was a ten or twenty. They viewed it as play money and got burnt. That is the perception of a lot of miners... BTC is just a medium to get fiat. Without the necessary discipline to put it away and ignore it, all the advice in the world matters not. |
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It'll work forever, you just won't make back your investment that's all.
I don't understand that, it will keep making coins forever.. but I wont get my investment back? Think of it just like a gold mine. First you want to make sure there is more gold in the mine than what you paid. If the price of gold is $1400 an ounce, and you paid $140,000 for the mine, it had better produce at least 100 ounces of gold. So you retain a geologist to estimate how many ounces of gold are in the mine. If it is less than 100 ounces then you should not buy the mine. Now you can keep digging, but after you mine out the rich veins (low difficulty) you will get less and less out of a days work. After a while, it will cost you more to dig than you get back from selling any gold you manage to find. Some people might say "but gold will rise in price and you will make money that way!". If that were true, then you should just buy gold. That way you don't have to bother digging for it, you know exactly how much you will have, and you will pay a cheaper price for it than overpaying for a gold mine. Many years back, the gold companies knew they could use leeching techniques to extract minute quantities of gold from huge piles of dirt. Back then it was abandoned as too expensive. Now that the value of gold has gone up, they are starting to use these techniques to get that gold. Through inflation, it now cost more to leech that gold than it would have when they refused to do it, yet the added value makes it worthwhile. The major mining concerns care about fiat, it's only certain individuals who care about holding the gold, mainly due to the amount needed to invest. The gold will get mined sooner or later, it just depends on the cost vs the reward in Fiat. The same is true of BTC. Few people are able to buy and hold when compared to all of the people mining. The paying BTC to mine more BTC only works for certain individuals. To repeat what has been said to me... You can lead a horse to water....... |
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Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 400 BTC, valued at $2 each or
Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 5 BTC, valued at $200 each
Soooo.... Purchase a widget that costs $20 and will generate $800 or Purchase a widget that costs $2000 and will generate $1000. Really? Signed, An owner of both BFL and AM hardware No one said what the starting value of the BTC was... that 10BTC was the same for both comments, not 20 vs 2000. |
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While the numbers are exaggerated, a widget that costs a small amount compared to what it would bring in has already been created. It's called an ASIC. At the time pre-orders were taken, the smallest unit cost less than 30BTC, and if ONLY 1 was made and there was NO competition, it would have brought in more than 400BTC in 12 months. Therein lies the rub... there will be competition and no one will make just one.
Thus everyone projected how much competition BFL would have between October of 2012 and January of 2013. The proejction was zero, they were the only vendor planning to ship. Then it was a simple matter of when you ordered your BFL product as to when you would get it. Instead, BFL was 3rd (out of 3) to deliver. Both ASICMiner and Avalon batch 1 deployed first, thus reaping large rewards. If we step into fantasy world though, we now have every unit capable of making such incredible returns... the ~4600 BTC for every mini-rig becomes 61,333. The network increase since those preorders is now at over 600TH. That's 400 minirigs. That would mean 24,533,200 BTC would have been produced in a single year and if we went to Inaba's farcical numbers that would be well over 72million. In less than 4 months at todays rate the entire BTC supply would have been exhausted.
No, most people here realize that mining is a zero sum game and that they are competing with all other miners. There are lots of noobs drawn in by the April bubble who probably can't find their ass with both hands. I am sure they have no idea about how mining works, but thankfully most of them are not on these forums. THIS is the problem with your "I'd take the 400 BTC!" and the reason why the difficulty is so high today... since EVERYONE wanted the 400 BTC... no one can have it.
Only early adopters have a shot at it, thus all of BFL land went from the catbird seat to negative return. Once the hash rate reaches equilibrium, you cannot generate much more than the worth of the device. There are still some efficiencies to be found with over/under clocking etc. Very true, they did assess the competition, but they failed to assess the quantity ordered. Most of the people seem to think it'd be just like the B1 Avalons and they'd have had BTC raining down on them. |
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It'll work forever, you just won't make back your investment that's all.
I don't understand that, it will keep making coins forever.. but I wont get my investment back? You have to understand their views on your investment. It's not currently possible, but let's say you spend the $274 to buy that miner today and can get it today. To the majority that post in here this means you just invested ~2.3 BTC in a product that will never earn ~2.3 BTC over it's lifetime. By this definition their suggestion is to simply buy BTC and not mess around with miners as you will have more money in the end whenever you sell that ~2.3BTC. If you insist on getting a miner though, be prepared to wait. While BFL has plans to complete all pre-orders by the end of September, it's not looking likely, then they have all of the orders placed since April 5th to go through. I doubt you would see an order placed today before Dec 1, but I could be wrong. If, like most people, would are interested in how much money it can possibly generate, that is a complete unknown, as it is dependant on your share of the total netowrk, the ever-changing value of BTC and how badly you want to get the money from what you mined. If you can view this as a long term investment, then you can earn more than you spent in USD. You would be better off though buying BTC and holding it, if you have the patience. |
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This is a completely disingenuous market that is predicated on completely ludicrous assumptions. Lets look at a few of them, but this list is by no means comprehensive:
Mining has different market dynamics than you'd like to make people believe. In mining the product is money or a money substitute itself. Thus miners are generally interested in increasing their purchasing power within the money system itself. Put another way: A miner becomes by definition the issuer of the currency and benefits from the ongoing inflation because they get the new money first before the market can price in the inflation or the mining costs are generally lower than the mining revenue. He thus operates CONDITIONAL on the assumption that the purchasing power of the mined asset increases, stays the same or inflates slower than the expected incoming cash flow. If I would expect the mined asset price to fall, I would NOT buy hardware in the first place, but hedge my asset position by selling them for something else. Thus, mining investments are similar to doubling down on an appreciation of the mined asset. The miner accepts a certain degree of risk and capital expenditure for the prospect of getting that capital back. If I expect the capital expenditure to outsize the mining revenue, I wouldn't do the investment in the first place. That simply doesn't make any economic sense. You clearly do not understand the motivations of the vast majority of miners, then. This may be your way of thinking, but I assure you beyond any shadow of a doubt, most miners are in it to make a profit in USD (or their local currency) not to "increase their purchasing power within the money system itself." Most miners couldn't give a shit about how much BTC it makes in the end, they just want to know how much USD (or local currency) it makes. Once again, I challenge you: Ask an average miner which they'd rather do: Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 400 BTC, valued at $2 each or Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 5 BTC, valued at $200 each Invariably, the answer will be the second option, even though that person could have increased their BTC holdings by 40x! Very few people want BTC for BTC sake, they want BTC for what value it provides in their local currency. Again, you may be different, but you are in a very tiny, miniscule minority. Actually, anyone who takes the 10 BTC widget that generates 5 BTC valued at $200 each is a short sighted fucking moron, chasing short term gains over long term advantage. Edit: not necessarily a moron, the possibility exists that their strategy is short term gains on purpose. To each their own. Simply put: 5 BTC valued at $200 each = $1000, but for each $1 BTC goes up in the future they only gain $5 of value, and has a LOT of room for downward price movement. 400 BTC valued at $200 each = $800, $200 less at the time of calculation, but for each $1 BTC goes up in the future they gain $400 of value, and very little room for downward price movement. You may well be right, and most miners may well choose the 5 BTC/$200 value, but they're fucking retarded likely cheating themselves if they do. The 400 BTC/$2 value has far more upside potential and reward, and less downside risk. It's the obvious choice if profit is the motivator. While the numbers are exaggerated, a widget that costs a small amount compared to what it would bring in has already been created. It's called an ASIC. At the time pre-orders were taken, the smallest unit cost less than 30BTC, and if ONLY 1 was made and there was NO competition, it would have brought in more than 400BTC in 12 months. Therein lies the rub... there will be competition and no one will make just one. If we step into fantasy world though, we now have every unit capable of making such incredible returns... the ~4600 BTC for every mini-rig becomes 61,333. The network increase since those preorders is now at over 600TH. That's 400 minirigs. That would mean 24,533,200 BTC would have been produced in a single year and if we went to Inaba's farcical numbers that would be well over 72million. In less than 4 months at todays rate the entire BTC supply would have been exhausted. THIS is the problem with your "I'd take the 400 BTC!" and the reason why the difficulty is so high today... since EVERYONE wanted the 400 BTC... no one can have it. |
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Any "vendor hate" here is well deserved. bASIC fucked up. BFL fucked up. Avalon fucked up. Intentional or not, they fucked up big time. They deserve all the hate they're getting. You want to eliminate the hate? Eliminate the vendors that have fucked up. Give them 3 strikes if you feel generous. Miss 3 promises/dates/specs/etc. and you're banned from participating in this forum.
That's actually not a bad idea... We really should be getting rid of those that constantly argue/troll/complain about it. But there is way too many now. There is, however, a small handful of users on this forum that work for the said companies. If they were banned, this would prevent them from fighting with the disgruntled. Eventually, it would go something like this: This is just an idea. I personally don't like it. But the trolling/aruging won't stop until these ASIC employees stop throwing fuel on the flame. Maybe this, combined with warning and temp banning those that don't contribute would work. Delete their post and warn them a few times. Then ban them for a week or so. If they come back and do the same thing, ban them for a month, three months, etc. Would require a lot of moderating though. While you do have users that are known to be associated with the companies, you also have the ones that are told "you MUST be working for them because you don't hate them". In the OP, it is clear that the moderator is not concerned with JUST the asic company reps that get out of hand, but the people who make thread after thread just to spew hate as well as jump into any related thread to do the same. Maybe the topic title needs rewriting, but it is clear that trolling is the problem. The best way to look at this is to look at how trolling works. In order for the troll personality to be successful, they need an audience. The solution then is a simple one, remove them from their audience. I mentioned before that a sub forum titled "Vendor Hate" or "Complaints" or something similar should be created and all threads of this type be shunted there. Since the trolls would only have themselves as their audience for the most part, the threads would likely die from a lack of participation. Hate posts in existing threads could be either deleted as being inappropraite ot shunted to a catch-all thread in the new sub-forum. Since posts are merely moved and not deleted, those interested in reading them can go there and the main forum remains clutter-free. To complete the concerns listed in the OP, 2 new sub-forums should also be created titled something like "New Ventures" and "Resolved issues". The former would be for use by anyone with a new group buy or a new startup, etc. The latter could be used for companies that have taken themselves out of the game. We don't need to see 50 threads about the same people demanding refunds of the same companies, either 1 thread should be enough or they should have their own place to reside, though this could be solved by simply locking threads with a link to the appropriate thread. |
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I'm no hardware hacker, but I thought I was decent enough to put some antech on the darn thing. After pulling the case off the jally, pulling the heat sink, removing whatever thick stuff they had on there, applied the antech and put it back together. It was running at 5.1GH/s (with the case removed and the fan turned upside-down) Now it's running at 3.5GH/s. In short. If you are getting good speeds, think about possibly not messing with the thermal paste  Did you use isopropyl alcohol and a lint free cloth to remove the old paste? Some cleaners can leave behind a residue that will affect thermal conductivity. |
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Heh, what a tool.
Are you completely incapable of having discourse without resorting to insults when a counterpoint does not fit your narrative ? There is no need for that final snipe. Evolve, Josh. To be fair, Josh has to argue that receiving less than you paid is good, and that waiting a really long time for your stuff is also good. Don't give him too hard a time, it is a very difficult position to defend. You and I had a similar discussion a while back, so let me ask again the question (slightly modified) you never answered: Can you show that the BTC you had last June and every BTC you earned from then until now was never spent, or IF spent, that you ended up with more BTC from having spent it? Actually, yes I could. However, I only need to show the opportunity cost of turning over my BTC to another party. That third party gets the chance to benefit from the rise in BTC exchange rate. I have zero chance to benefit from an exchange rate rise if I do not have my BTC. Whoever took my BTC has a higher than zero chance, therefore they are in a better position to capitalize on any rise in exchange rates. We don't need to talk about exchange rates though. We can just take Josh's example: Give me 400 BTC now (worth $52,000) and I will promise you 200 BTC at some point in the future such that the USD value of that 200 BTC is more than $70,000. In other words, give me $52,000 of BTC now, and I will give you $70,000 of BTC back at some point in the future if the exchange rate goes above $350/BTC. While I understand the economics involved, I was just asking a straight line question which you answered, and I commend you for your forebearance. The patience needed is not something everyone has. |
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ummmmm let's see
misadvertising or false advertising is illegal yes
not shipping within due time is also illegal yes
how many lawyers have you talked to before?
also I usually pay by bitpay or paypal
also shipping me something that i did not order is also liable to get them court time
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you make the upgrade order in March and then not pay for it until April, after the new pricing went into effect? I can see their system accepting your 'upgrade' due to lack of foresight in the programming, but you did technically pay for something no longer offered for sale. BFL should have contacted you and given you the chance to request a refund or take the new products, so that was a mistake on their part. |
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FYI primecoin.org home page now has a link to the hp client download. Hope the miner icon I add is likeable  I think this helps new users to find it easier. Once again let's give Mikael a big round of applause for his hard work, dedication and selfless contribution! Awesome. Many thanks to you both. |
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no, i didn't ignore it. i simply had no comment on it except that i was confused as to what two things i was suppose to have compared. and how does that illustrate any point?
but i will comment now though since you seem to want me to.
i don't believe that the poster you quoted nor i called you any names nor derided you in this thread. i would agree that attacking another individual for their hardware purchasing decisions would be out of place. heck, i have put money into (undelivered) products of some of the worst performing companies currently out there so i wouldn't cast aspersions unto others in the same boat.
no, i have not searched your posting history so i have no clue what you have brought to the table previously. if i 'took the time' to go thru every posters' history i would never get anything done so that is quite unrealistic to expect.
It was in reference to my missing the nail a few posts back. Your nail and mine were on different subjects, thus we were talking apples and oranges. Exactly, if we can communicate both successes and failures without embellishment, this sub-forum would help a lot of people. |
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Maybe that's because what you think is a problem is just 4 or 5 dudes with a big mouth, lots of time in their hands and a sense of entitlement like I haven't seen before. Translation: nothing a few bans won't solve. But that's just how I see it, and what the fuck do I know, right? But the forum promote freedom of speech like with BFL ads so it can't ban users for posting their ideas. Meanwhile, they are clustering a technical part of the forum that don't give a *** about their flame wars. Give them a section to do so and everyone will be happy. That does raise an interesting idea... why not simply create a Vendor Hate sub-forum and move posts as needed? If you shunt enough to the basement, it may eventually get forgotten. |
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One question you may also want to consider, with the manufacturers that have a promise to increase the hashing power in certains circumstances, how much will that then ultimately add to the 6PH estimate you have?
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In reality you are comparing apples to oranges, yet I will answer you in full.
Whether you are a customer of a company that is performing well or poorly, you should be allowed to post your experiences and within reason your thoughts. I posted my thoughts above because THAT is how I made my decision for the purchase I made after having done a lot of research through the older posts on this very forum. The people who feel they must then call me names and deride me for my decision are producing nothing more than a dark atmosphere that will prevent future posters from speaking their minds in fear of getting the same treatment. That type of 'free speech' should be curtailed as it produces nothing. If someone were to offer a well reasoned argument and detail why they felt my decision was wrong, I would look at their comments and research them and come to a new conclusion based on that and let them know why I either agreed or disagreed with them and list the points.
If you took the time to read though the majority of my postings, you'd notice that, as my signature states, the worse you treat me, the worse I respond. I have earned the emnity of many and the respect of few, but their opinion of me matters not to me, as I am secure in who I am. I personally love an intelligent debate, and this sub-forum would be a wondrus place if that was what we conducted here. Sadly, with the anonymity the internet provides, you have people lashing out like they never would in a face to face meeting.
The problem then becomes where to draw the line. Unless everyone agrees, it will just fuel the fire.
actually, i am not comparing anything to anything.  And this illustrates my point. You asked a question and then completely ignored the answer to point out something irrelevant. |
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