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561  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Fellow Canuck are you mining? on: June 29, 2016, 07:21:27 PM
I do mine Monero. Canada is actually a very good place for mining crypto because in most parts of Canada the winters are very cold.
562  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Speculation (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation on: June 29, 2016, 05:16:56 PM
...

A good meme of a guy who just realized he is getting rich with Moneros would be nice, I tried to find one but did not find anything suitable.
Anyhow, holding a bag of Moneros and basically doing nothing is ironically the best way to become rich. Too much Trading just makes you lose your coins to the pockets of whales.

P.S. Noticed that Monero is about to get some publicity from this guy (read from the comment box): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD9GOslS4zg

... but without those who sell low hoping to buy lower the whales will starve.
563  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Speculation (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation on: June 28, 2016, 09:02:44 PM
...
needmoney, checkout moneroworld.i2p

Smiley

uh speculation on topic....

brexit, halvening, DAO, blockreward going below 12 xmr, GUI being released in 2 weeks*, RingCT right around the corner .... damn I wish I had more money. Or damn I wish I hadn't bought all that hardware instead of monero when monero was 25 cents. Or damn I wish I could convince myself to mine on a pool instead of hoping for a whole block every once in a while.

Actually I like finding a Monero block once in a while rather than pool mining. As for predicting the timing of software releases good luck with that. When the GUI or RingCT are released the market will pass judgment, as with any other Monero release.
564  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: My rebuttal to the fairness of proof-of-work launch (Monero's holier than thou) on: June 28, 2016, 03:43:54 AM
...

If 11.7 cents of electricity only nets 1 cent of income, it is pointless.

If 11.7 cents of electricity nets 11.7 cents worth of heat plus 1 for cent of income for 12.7 cents total it is not pointless.

It is pointless because it is a pita. Why bother. As I pointed out, all your global neighbors will compete with you for that 1 cents, so it declines asymptotically towards 0.

You don't seem to understand economics at all. Please learn about the essential Economics 101 term "opportunity cost".

I don't think I should be required to give remedial course in Economics 101. Perhaps it has been decades since you took that course and need a refresher.

Actually what is pointless is this entire debate. You started a thread about Monero's launch, and Monero is currently mined with CPUs and GPUs. So what is even the point of arguing what will happen when the latest generation of Bitcoin, ASIC miners becomes obsolete?
565  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: My rebuttal to the fairness of proof-of-work launch (Monero's holier than thou) on: June 28, 2016, 03:22:38 AM
...

If 11.7 cents of electricity only nets 1 cent of income, it is pointless.

If 11.7 cents of electricity nets 11.7 cents worth of heat plus 1 for cent of income for 12.7 cents total it is not pointless. Why do you have such difficulty understanding what the free market is saying? There are situations where it makes economic sense to  operate an electric space heater. As long as these things are sold, and people buy them and operate them, then my case stands.  
566  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: My rebuttal to the fairness of proof-of-work launch (Monero's holier than thou) on: June 28, 2016, 03:14:24 AM
There is zero effective electricity cost.

Incorrect. Do the math. You entirely ignored the main point of my prior post.

I said in the 100% electric heat case not the natural gas case.
567  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: My rebuttal to the fairness of proof-of-work launch (Monero's holier than thou) on: June 28, 2016, 03:08:41 AM
ArticMine you entirely didn't address my point that if marginal cost of mining one CC token is $600 (yet the mining farms such a 21 Inc. project a $8 cost for themselves), then if suddenly millions are mining to pay some portion of their electric bill, then the market price of the CC token is going to fall down closer to the actual cost of production $8 because those are millions of sellers (if they don't sell, they don't lower then electric bill).

Mining equipment has a capital cost also. If they are unwilling to pay the capital cost for natural gas, why would they be willing to pay capital cost for mining equipment to lower then electric bill by less than switching to gas will.

Once we turn mining into a race to consume the most electricity in the most ways possible, then it means we will drive the electricity costs of producing a transaction up to the value of a transaction, because block rewards decline to tail reward (or 0 in Bitcoin's case), so the only revenue remaining are the transactions.

This is 21 Inc's strategic mistake also. I am going to obliterate 21 Inc.

What you are describing here is a new generation of ASIC that has a 75x efficiency advantage over the previous generation. Even in this case the old ASIC is still competitive in the 100% electric heating case since 1) The old ASIC has zero capital cost since it has already being depreciated and 2) There is zero effective electricity cost.

The real issues here are
1) The builders of the ASICs are also the operators of the ASICs
2) The Bitcoin at 1MB block size is too small relative to the Bitcoin 10 min block time. This allows 1) above to happen, by minimizing the impact of the Great Firewall of China.
3) The whole POW mining algorithm in Bitcoin is broken regardless of how Bitcoin is mined, since the emission in Bitcoin will go to zero over time. We can debate forever how Bitcoin will fail over this, but I understand that we are in agreement that this will cause the eventual failure of Bitcoin. Even with fixed 1 MB blocks I fail to see how the "fee market" in Bitcoin is supposed to work.
568  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: My rebuttal to the fairness of proof-of-work launch (Monero's holier than thou) on: June 28, 2016, 02:26:17 AM
Such as In many cases it makes economic sense to run an electric space heater when it is -40 C or F outside.

How many times have I pointed out that using electricity for heating is not economic. We use carbon based fuels for heating. There is an orders-of-magnitude difference in efficiency. If you are a Physicist and don't know this, I am flabbergast.

You can ignore reality if you wish.

Natural gas is 1/3 the cost of electric heating:

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/comparing-cost-gas-furnace-vs-electric-heater-61395.html

So if someone is using electric heating, then it is because the cost is irrelevant to them. Thus mining a CC to recover a small fraction of that cost is ludicrous. Remember the mining farms near hydroelectric power (or free subsidized electricity alleged in China) will eliminate any possibility of getting much income from your residential mining rig.

Edi 1t: Repeating the same erroneous statement over and over again does not make it correct.

Exactly. Come on man, up your game to producing well researched white papers and stop throwing these poorly contemplated theories at me. I find I am often wasting time rebuking these half-baked concepts that you haven't really thought out well.

Don't tell me the current Satoshi proof-of-work is any where near a fair, competitive free market distribution scheme:

Remember ZIRP-pusher Larry Summers (the same guy alleged to have gone to Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union to arrange the transfer of nationalized assets to newly anointed oligarchs), is on the board of 21 Inc.

As an example of the potential power of its pool, 21's mining operations generated approximately 5,700 BTC in 2013 and 69,000 BTC the following year, according to the document.

By the time its chips were to be embedded into Internet of Things (IoT) devices, 21 projected its cost to produce 1 BTC could be as low as $7.45.

So we pay $600 per BTC, and 21 Inc. will pay $8.

By your own figures you are still reducing the mining cost by 33%, the cost of the natural gas, so ignoring this does not make economic sense. As to whether natural gas or electric heat is the better option there are a host of issues above the cost of the energy it self. two major ones are:
1) Capital cost are higher with natural gas
2) With electric heat is easy target specific areas rather than the whole house, business etc. This is where electric heat can have big gains over natural gas.
My point remains. As long as electric heat is part of the equation there is the opportunity for 100% savings. If it is not then the savings can range from 25% to 70%. or more

Edit 1: Here is an example at http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2012/1207/Cheapest-way-to-heat-your-home-Four-fuels-compared/Natural-gas-1-024 Natural gas comes in at 78% of the electricity cost.

Edit 2: About the only case where you could have a case is passive solar heating; however even there can be a small electrical component.
569  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Do you support ICOs? on: June 27, 2016, 09:47:35 PM
No

ICO = MSB https://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html

Now how many ICOs are also registered as an MSB?
570  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: My rebuttal to the fairness of proof-of-work launch (Monero's holier than thou) on: June 27, 2016, 08:36:10 PM
Such as In many cases it makes economic sense to run an electric space heater when it is -40 C or F outside.

How many times have I pointed out that using electricity for heating is not economic. We use carbon based fuels for heating. There is an orders-of-magnitude difference in efficiency. If you are a Physicist and don't know this, I am flabbergast.

You can ignore reality if you wish.  Take a pure carbon fuel such as coal. The efficiency of a coal fired power plant is upwards of 30% in some cases 40%. The efficiency of a coal fireplace as a source of heat maybe 5%. I used to live in the UK where coal was commonly used to heat homes even in the 1970's It is been phased out because it is so inefficient.

Edi 1t: Repeating the same erroneous statement over and over again does not make it correct. Here is Canada there is a large number of residences and businesses that are heated with electricity. Furthermore even if one were to use a fuel such as natural gas, it still has a cost and if that cost is displaced by the POW mining operation, this an economic advantage that only works if the mining is decentralized. All of this is basic thermodynamics.

Edit 2: You are also ignoring cooling and air conditioning costs. Setting the value of the heat produced as a by product of POW mining to zero makes zero economic sense. The heat produced has a positive or negative value that depends on the weather. It also depends on the heating needs of the miner. If one produces more heat that is needed to heat one's home then there is no or negative value on the excess heat. This is where that small player can have high advantage since scaling to a larger POW mining operation actually increases the per unit cost.
571  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Basic common sense for new people / offline wallets on: June 27, 2016, 06:40:43 AM
Another way to significantly reduce the risk is to dump Windows and use GNU / Linux instead
572  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Total transaction capacity of the entire cryptocurrency system? on: June 27, 2016, 04:56:26 AM
Monero is capable of handling up to 1600 tps! For a pure POW blockchain this is quite a feat.

One cannot properly put a limit on the theoretical transactional capacity of the Monero network because that will ultimately depend upon the cost in real terms of such things as computing power, memory, digital storage, bandwidth etc. Furthermore those costs could very easily change drastically over time. To put things into perspective, I doubt any payment card network could have come anywhere close to matching the current transaction capacity of the Bitcoin network using the technology of 1949; namely punched cards, tabulating machines and telegraph lines. 1949 was when the Diners Club was first conceived. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diners_Club_International

You seem to be a Monero supporter

What is your Maximum Block Size?

Also has anyone calculated what block size would not be transferable in your 1 minute block speed.
(Even if you have no size limit, the internet speed will most likely act as a limiting force.)

 Cool

There isn't a fixed maximum blocksize in Monero.

Monero uses an adaptive blocksize limit that imposes a quadratic penalty on increasing the blocksize above the median blocksize, with this penalty proportional to the emission. It can range from zero for no increase to the full emission for doubling the blocksize (the maximum allowed), from the median. This penalty also is not "refunded" if the blocksize falls below the median.  Another critical aspect of this is that Monero has a tail emission of 0.6 XMR per block, since otherwise there eventually would be no penalty.  

You are of course correct in that cost in real terms of Internet bandwidth will of course be a limiting factor, so will other costs such as computing power, memory, digital storage etc.; however these costs change with time so one cannot determine a fixed maximum blocksize from them.

Edit 1: Monero's block time was recently changed in a hard fork to approximately every 2 min.

Edit 2: The idea is that in order to increase the blocksize miners will demand extra fees in order to compensate them for their loss in emission. If there are additional costs such a Internet bandwidth for example to mine a grater block then the fee will need to compensate for those additional costs in addition to the loss in emission. So in effect the market sets the maximum blocksize in Monero.

Edit 3: It is also fair to say that the Internet bandwidth limit has not been tested in Monero and it could be a fair amount of time before it is tested if for example the cost in real terms of Internet bandwidth falls at a faster rate than the rate of growth of the Monero network.
573  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Total transaction capacity of the entire cryptocurrency system? on: June 27, 2016, 02:17:01 AM
Monero is capable of handling up to 1600 tps! For a pure POW blockchain this is quite a feat.

One cannot properly put a limit on the theoretical transactional capacity of the Monero network because that will ultimately depend upon the cost in real terms of such things as computing power, memory, digital storage, bandwidth etc. Furthermore those costs could very easily change drastically over time. To put things into perspective, I doubt any payment card network could have come anywhere close to matching the current transaction capacity of the Bitcoin network using the technology of 1949; namely punched cards, tabulating machines and telegraph lines. 1949 was when the Diners Club was first conceived. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diners_Club_International
574  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: ETH = Game Over on: June 26, 2016, 10:59:14 PM
...

PS:
Ethereum is a DEAD scammy "coin scheme"

Be Careful What You Wish For.  What if a crash in Ethereum sends Monero to the moon?
575  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: My rebuttal to the fairness of proof-of-work launch (Monero's holier than thou) on: June 26, 2016, 10:26:47 PM
As far as I am concerned, your proprietary secret sauce has zero value until people can use it. That means you will have to reveal it and run the risk that someone will copy it and not pay you for your intellectual property, As far as what is already there in the market when it comes to fairness Monero's POW is among the best.

Thanks for promoting theft. Thanks for promoting the force of viral communist Copyleft licenses. Thanks for all the dogma you've been destroying the altcoin ecosystem with.

Now please go away!

I am not promoting theft, just telling it like it is. By the way I guess you will not be able to participate in the stock market, which is the heart of capitalism, since every major stock exchange uses software with "viral communist Copyleft licenses" The licenses were inspired by and to a large degree written by this guy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman. Furthermore  you also may not want to use Windows 10 because Microsoft has rewritten the Windows kernel in order to run the GNU toolchain on top of Windows. https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2016/03/30/run-bash-on-ubuntu-on-windows/.

Edit: I do not condone software piracy. Furthermore I have on more than one occasion identified software piracy and provided cost effective alternatives that eliminated the "theft of intellectual property".  Wink
576  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: My rebuttal to the fairness of proof-of-work launch (Monero's holier than thou) on: June 26, 2016, 10:18:40 PM
You still have not answered my rebuttal to your claim "POW mining is equivalent to paying the utility companies for electricity". It is you who drew your gun first and fired wide. Now I get to shoot. You Americans should understand this.

Edit 1: One does not need a mathematical proof or a white paper for something that should be obvious: Such as In many cases it makes economic sense to run an electric space heater when it is -40 C or F outside.

Edit 2: Maybe you slipped on the ice.  Wink
577  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: My rebuttal to the fairness of proof-of-work launch (Monero's holier than thou) on: June 26, 2016, 09:59:09 PM
As far as what is already there in the market when it comes to fairness Monero's POW is among the best.

You can't prove that. How many people weren't using stolen cloud mining accounts as I already explained upthread.

You can't just make up bullshit without proof, math, and a white paper.

Are you sure you are actually an academic  Huh

I do not need to. It is you that is making the claim that it is not, and proving a negative is even harder. What I have already done is disprove your assertion that POW mining is equivalent to paying the utility companies for electricity. That is why the weather is so critical.

Edit: In another context I would agree than my claim requires proof; however give the title of this thread "My rebuttal to the fairness of proof-of-work launch (Monero's holier than thou)" my claim is valid since the onus is on the OP to prove his assertion not on the rest of use to disprove it.
578  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: My rebuttal to the fairness of proof-of-work launch (Monero's holier than thou) on: June 26, 2016, 09:49:25 PM
The weather creates an uneven playing field https://www.wunderground.com

Yes the Butterfly Effect impacts everything. But if anything you are supporting the position that it doesn't matter which method of distribution is employed. So why are you arguing against Monero's "only proof-of-work is fair" doctrine?

My point is that the distribution can have some mathematically provable bounds on insider ownership (my plan), so some people may judge this is more or equivalently trustless (i.e. worthy) as a proof-of-work launch. Others may have a different opinion.

And my point is Monero can't use that dogma to claim they are provably more fairly distributed.

First of all, there is no point in comparing Monero's distribution method or that of any coin for that matter with your proprietary secret sauce. As far as I am concerned, your proprietary secret sauce has zero value until people can use it. That means you will have to reveal it and run the risk that someone will copy it and not pay you for your intellectual property, As far as what is already there in the market when it comes to fairness Monero's POW is among the best.
579  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: My rebuttal to the fairness of proof-of-work launch (Monero's holier than thou) on: June 26, 2016, 09:28:26 PM
The weather creates an uneven playing field https://www.wunderground.com
580  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: My rebuttal to the fairness of proof-of-work launch (Monero's holier than thou) on: June 26, 2016, 09:20:30 PM
Why do you not simply argue that Moenro's POW is unfair because it discriminates against Americans in favor of Canadians? Furthermore even within the same Canadian province there is also discrimination since those who live in Prince George BC like myself, have an unfair advantage over those who live in Victoria BC. As for those who live in any part of Africa they are really discriminated against. Then there is also religions discrimination. The economics of mining Monero are very different in say Vatican City and Makkah. Jerusalem is somewhere in between.
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