From www.wtcr.ca:  Also: All ASICMINER Products totaling 5 BTC or more are eligible for FREE UPS Express Shipping this weekend. Canada and USA only. ( link) There you go Folks!!!! 33GH for ONLY $3300!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hey! K9! How much BTC will that 32BTC get back?!?!?!?!? Pass. Clearly you have not read my post history, otherwise you would have picked someone else. As always, you get the math wrong. Today, BTC is trading at $122, so 32 BTC for a 100 pack would be worth $3904. They would get about half their BTC back according to http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/They would at least get their mining equipment immediately. If the difficulty rise tails off (unlikely), they would be in a position to take advantage of that because they would already have their hardware running. Still, these should only be regarded as novelty items, or for securing the blockchain and democratizing the mining of bitcoin, not for an investment that will give a positive ROI. Plus, shiny.  You rely on MtGox for your BTC pricing? roflmao. I knew quite well your post history, just as I knew quite well 32 BTC could NEVER be recouped as BTC, and I knew you have this hardon for BTC comparisions regardless of USD pricing. And it's SOOO much better to mine now that wait. Back in June you could have spent 8000 BTC for the equivalent of a mini-rig. Now you are paying almost $4000 dollars for what is basically a little single. Great investment, I can use it now! 33GH now vs 600GH later for the same price. And this isn't JUST BFL offering that. I've seen at least 3 companies claiming roughly the same. This is an intentional screw to the greedy customer too dumb to realiae it. If BFL was as shady as ASICMiner, it would have sold units on e-bay 2 months ago for $100k+ instead of shipping to their customers, claiming "Oh, look, our first customers are selling!". |
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How can you quote me and still not read what I wrote?
ALL THAT IS A RED HERRING...
The problem, which you just acknowledged in another thread, is that BFL lies about delivery dates.
Yet, even if they HAD shipped on time, the situation would be the same, only back in January instead of today. THAT is YOUR red herring. YOUR logical Fallacy. In the case of the Geese WHO WINS?  #1 In the case of BFL Products WHO WINS? ? #1 In both cases #100 loses, but not as much as #1000 but not as much as #10000 etc etc etc. it matters NOT WHEN it shipped. You are hung up on lies. THEY LIED! Who cares? Can you honestly tell me YOU never lied? A lie is not fraud. Maybe once you figure that out we can move on. |
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That is a red herring. The problem, which you just acknowledged in another thread, is that BFL lies about delivery dates. If you accept their lie then they do you harm. They lied, they did harm they are liable. BFL is a fast sinking ship JUMP OFF NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN.
Red herring is an English-language idiom that refers to a logical fallacy that misleads or detracts from the actual issue. Golden geese VS BFL product Golden Eggs VS Bitcoins Gold = $.01 VS Difficulty = 100 million =! RoI VS =! RoI You claim BFL is at fault for SELLING too much, that means the goose seller is also at fault for selling too much. There is no fallacy here. This is the claims made. The customer is never at fault. |
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Proof of what? BFL's officers lying about delivery dates in public in several forums?
So lying = ponzi. Thank you for your definition, I do not believe it holds water in court. Do you have any OTHER proof, that MIGHT hold up? |
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We are selling geese that lay golden eggs. Please place your orders.
1,000,000 sales later:
Gold: $.01/ounce
Fault: BFL for selling us the geese. After all, the customer is blameless.
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Since they did NOT go out of business, a lot of people are going to get what they paid for albeit later than expected. Every person that paid for a $30,000 mini will get that mini as long as the company is not brought to it's knees by detractors trying to shut them down. I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty damn happy getting a $30,000 unit a bit late VS paying $1,000,000 to ASICMiner for less hash and absolutely NO chance to get my money back.
There you go. YOU feel screwed, now let's take down the company and screw EVERYONE. Sorry, but THAT is the definition of childish in my book.
You are making assumptions again. If BFL is a Ponzi and has spent most of the pre-order money already, then they just got a fresh infusion of funds from the monarch photoshop. They could use these funds in a responsible manner and use them to build out the rest of the pre-order investor's merchandise. But then what would they spend on developing monarch? Also, why would you expect a Ponzi scheme to suddenly act responsibly. If they are not a Ponzi, then they could afford to refund everyone and mine themselves with the equipment. You assume that one day the music won't stop. Even Bernie Madoff who ran a Ponzi scheme for 20 years had to stop dancing eventually. The longer the music plays, the more money is eventually lost. That is why you put a stop to shady operations instead of letting them fester. PSA:
If you have ordered from ButterFly Labs and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).
First ask ButterFly Labs for a refund, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. Multiple customers have already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
If you ordered via Bitcoin or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC and they will advocate for you with ButterFly Labs to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises.
You can also do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms
There are also several threads on how to get a refund from ButterFly Labs, here are two:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266945.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272585.0
Yet again, speculation without proof. Easy to do. I simply ask for proof, can you provide it? |
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I've made some math. If difficulty will continue to rise 20% each retarget from now on, I'll make 85BTC in 6 months. I'll never make the 102BTC I've paid  . What's your opinion? I'm so sorry for you! You need to blame ASICMiner, BFL and Bitfury for your losses. After all, THEY caused your losses by shipping product. |
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Who cares about ROI when you have... The Mug  Full specs please. Capacity: 8 ounces Color: White with black and red writing/symbols Shelf Life: Indefinitely or until dropped and broken. Limitations: None, can be used for coffee, water, juice, soda, pens, pencils, etc. Thermal Coefficient: Unknown. We refer you to http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jon-hotchkiss/which-cup-keeps-coffee-ho_b_3367108.html for mug comparisions though. |
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From www.wtcr.ca: Also: All ASICMINER Products totaling 5 BTC or more are eligible for FREE UPS Express Shipping this weekend. Canada and USA only. ( link) There you go Folks!!!! 33GH for ONLY $3300!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hey! K9! How much BTC will that 32BTC get back?!?!?!?!? Pass. |
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While Josh was being a hypocrit, transparancy is one of those things that cut both ways. What if in October he announced they already had 200TH or 500TH or 1PH of orders? People would have run to their calculators and paniced and cancelled orders. In other words they would have made a run on the bank and caused it to fold. Now put yourself in his place... would you have told the whole truth and watched your company destroyed by greedy people who overordered without the consideration of the consequence of their actions who demand refunds and call you a fraud?
So you are saying it was ok to lie because, even though that is fraud, it helped the company. Right?  Of course it is... BFL gets a pass on ethics. Transparency is simply one of the new buzz-words out there for people to get behind. Let's compare GM and BFL a second. Both have a product. Both have created new products. Both have had problems. The difference here is that when GM has problems, it's likely to cost lives. BFL's problems cause heartache. Time and again I have read about car companies finding out about a dangerous flaw and the first question asked is something like: What will this cost us in lawsuits vs what it will cost us in recalls? <--- while that may NOT be fraud, it sure is shady. People are killed every day in car crashes, why don't we sue the car companies? Cause it's the people at fault NOT the car company. They just produce product, how can they be liable for what people do with it afterward. Now, fraud is another of those buzz words people love to throw around. There's a guy in the UK claiming he'll sue BFL if the product HE HAS IN HAND does not live up to it's "lifetime guarantee". When informed about the US laws governing that his response is that HE is governed by UK law and therefore he'll sue in a UK court for fraud. You can twist my words anyway you like, but the plain and simple truth is that ANY company who took in the orders that BFL has would have been just as unforthcoming if they had had the same problems. If this was the clear cut case of Fraud you paint it out to be, WHY have some lawyers turned down the case? Everything you PSA adopters say points to an open and shut case. BOOM, easy money. What lawyer turns down easy money? Go ahead, cry fraud, cry whatever you like. If BFL had gone out of business, you'd be in virtually the same boat today with ASICMiner thoroughly ripping people off and Avalon nto being able to ship and tons of companies vieing to get your cash. Since they did NOT go out of business, a lot of people are going to get what they paid for albeit later than expected. Every person that paid for a $30,000 mini will get that mini as long as the company is not brought to it's knees by detractors trying to shut them down. I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty damn happy getting a $30,000 unit a bit late VS paying $1,000,000 to ASICMiner for less hash and absolutely NO chance to get my money back. There you go. YOU feel screwed, now let's take down the company and screw EVERYONE. Sorry, but THAT is the definition of childish in my book. |
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Just as a thought, if a number of people were to file individual lawsuits against BFL those lawsuits would begin to rack up a legal bill from Hell for BFL.
Much easier than trying to put together a class action and would get things started a whole lot faster.
If BFL had to deal with fifty or sixty lawsuits at once, it would certainly begin figuriing out how to get ot of the situation in a hurry.
My $.02.
:0
Sounds like a good plan. Let's overload BFL with lawsuits and make them spend more and more money until we cause them to go bankrupt. Then the customers waiting could get back pennies on the dollar once the lawyers took their cut. That is a MUCH better plan than letting them ship and have the customers use the equipment. LAWSUIT! LAWSUIT! LAWSUIT! LAWSUIT! LAWSUIT! C'mon people! Take up the chant!!!! |
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Where did all that moxie for TRUTH and JUSTICE go I wonder? Inaba = Shady Hypocrite. While Josh was being a hypocrit, transparancy is one of those things that cut both ways. What if in October he announced they already had 200TH or 500TH or 1PH of orders? People would have run to their calculators and paniced and cancelled orders. In other words they would have made a run on the bank and caused it to fold. Now put yourself in his place... would you have told the whole truth and watched your company destroyed by greedy people who overordered without the consideration of the consequence of their actions who demand refunds and call you a fraud? |
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I dunno, I'm entertained everytime I get a message in the corner of my screen that I got sent BTC from my pool. While it doesn't not happen as often as it used to, it does still happen.
Either you are irrelevant hobby miner or brand new. Yes, I have admitted in the past I view this as a hobby. |
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And I play basketball with Obama on the weekends. He also asks me for advice on what to do about the middle east and the economic situation as well. These are verifiable facts but I would require you to come to my house so I can prove it. I'm so smart guys, look how hard I'm trying to prove it. My mother is even smarter though and she makes me feel inadequate, so I have to come on these forums of strangers. ROFL.
Congratulations. I hope you and the president enjoy your outings. I'm afraid I cannot come to your house, I have this "stranger danger" vibe going off in my head since you seem to think I am a child. I'm really sorry your mother makes you feel that way. Maybe you can see a therapist and discuss that in private and maybe.. I dunno.. grow a pair? You should try to be original in your retorts. LOLZ Really? You were the first person to ever call another a child? I must have missed that, can you link your post please? |
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Have you dropped the price to a reasonable .01BTC yet? I'd like to see RoI sometime before 2020.
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And I play basketball with Obama on the weekends. He also asks me for advice on what to do about the middle east and the economic situation as well. These are verifiable facts but I would require you to come to my house so I can prove it. I'm so smart guys, look how hard I'm trying to prove it. My mother is even smarter though and she makes me feel inadequate, so I have to come on these forums of strangers. ROFL.
Congratulations. I hope you and the president enjoy your outings. I'm afraid I cannot come to your house, I have this "stranger danger" vibe going off in my head since you seem to think I am a child. I'm really sorry your mother makes you feel that way. Maybe you can see a therapist and discuss that in private and maybe.. I dunno.. grow a pair? |
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If your intention was to troll then I suppose you were pretty successful, nice job I guess.
With your high ASVAB I assumed they'd have likely assigned you to higher clearance aircraft, there was a guy in basic that was going to do mechanical work on one of the stealth planes and he had a high ASVAB score though maybe there is no correlation. While some 1N2s do fly with the aircraft most copy mission on the ground far away.
I did know by putting it out there that people would jump all over it, so, yea, kinda to troll. <off-topic deleted> Please open another topic "My awesome life", we seriously don't care here... Really? Yet you cared enough to respond. Funny that. |
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Oh yeah, and with 20/20 hindsight we all knew the bitcoin price was going to go to $250+... Suuuure...
No. Incorrect. This is not about exchange rates after you bought your mined BTC. You traded 26 BTC for 8 BTC. There is no single exchange rate that will make 8 BTC be worth more than 26 BTC. Truth is, people took some risks, and in their opinion it didn't pay off. As much as it seems to be the thing to blame others for mistakes made by people, you really do need to face up to the fact that it was always a risk to do business with BFL.
Yes. Doing business with BFL is very risky. They are shady. They tell you when you will have your product, and when that day comes they fail to deliver. For time sensitive deliveries (like mining equipment) that is very destructive to value. I did because the risk didn't bother me, in the end it will likely pay off for me.
You traded 26 BTC for 8 BTC. This makes you happy. Some people get their kicks being tortured and beaten. Who am I to judge. But when you try to convince others to buy BFL to justify your own failures, that is where I will judge. Again we get back to the paying with bitcoin stuff. That was my decision, and at the time I actually figured there was a good chance bitcoin would go back to the ~$3 range (the price rise already looked like a bubble then). I took that risk, it didn't pay off, but that is life. If I had invested real money rather than gpu time I would only be concerned with ROI on the cash I put in, namely what bitcoin is worth in FIAT today. Now if the price of bitcoin had remained steady but the difficulty had climbed as high as it has, then there would be reason to be pissed off.
Paying with Bitcoin or GBP or EUR or USD or RUS or RMB or HKD doesn't matter. What matters is how much value in Bitcoin you gave away in order to get the Bitcoin from BFL. You gave away 26 Bitcoin worth of value in order to get 8 Bitcoin (maybe less) worth of mining. That is always a bad deal. You will always do better by not making that trade. At the time you made the purchase, BFL promised you that you would get your product in time to make your 26 BTC back and then some. With the 20/20 hindsight, you may as well say we all got ripped off for not mining more with GPUs when bitcoin first started up, or when OpenCL based mining was developed. It is silly to work on this basis, and the only reason you do so is because you WANT people to feel ripped off, in order to stoke and stroke your ego more. Guess it makes you feel righteous and that you matter in this world a bit?
Is it silly to examine the result of a trade after the fact? Yes, we have 20/20 hindsight and with that hindsight we can now see that BFL ripped you off. Is the reason you blind yourself is because of pride? We have 20/20 hindsight now that they have finally delivered to you (some people we still don't know how badly they have been scammed). We can see that your trade with BFL was a bad one. What is even worse is that with 20/20 hindsight you cannot see it because of willful blindness. You gave BFL 26 BTC and they promised to give you back far more BTC in the form of delivering you the hashing power to mine it in Oct 2012. They did not do that. They gave you barely enough mining to get back 8 BTC in Aug 2013. The principal value in mining equipment is in the hashing power and the time you receive it. Your hashing power ordered was 10GH/s, your time to receive was Oct 2012. BFL failed to deliver the value they promised you. And yet again you miss the obvious. The value of 26 bitcoin in November 2012 was a lot lower than it is now. There is a time component involved, which you only seem to selectively see when it comes to product delivery date, yet completely ignore in the context of what bitcoin were valued at at the time of purchase. Your argument is false, because it is like saying "You sold bitcoin at $3 a year ago, they're now $130, you got ripped off/scammed!" It is wrong, there is no way you can twist that around without looking like an idiot. I'm not blind. I know full well I could have ended up with more cash in hand if I had simply sat on the coin I had and done nothing. I am also not blind to the fact that I made the choice to spend said bitcoin in November 2012. I take responsibility for that decision, which is clearly more than others here. I have not forget all the people who felt mislead because they couldn't get refunds of exactly the same amount of bitcoin they put in before the april price spike. They weren't mislead, they just had buyers remorse and wished instead that they had swapped them for USD. I think the simplest way to look at it is that buying a machine that makes BTC is essentially buying BTC. If you want to complicate things and add currency speculation on top of it all then you're right that a time component was involved. When speculating on currency timing is often everything. BFL stated an approximate date you'd begin to generate your BTC, by delaying they also threw off any currency speculation their customers were counting on as well as diminishing the amount of BTC they'd generate. Your tack only makes the argument worse for BFL. When you buy BTC on an exchange it's important that transactions get executed in a timely manner. If an exchange held your trade for months on end and you lost a ton of money in the conversion then the exchange would have screwed you, regardless of the potential alternate future where the trade made you money, much in the same way BFL screwed you. The obvious rebuttal to this is that BFL offered refunds so the second the delays started screwing up customers' potential currency speculations they had the option to refund and buy BTC instead, but this defense is at least partially mitigated by the fact that BFL dangled the imminent completion of their products continuously. Many customers thought 2 more weeks didn't change their speculative assessment of their potential profits and most ended up like frogs being boiled slowly until it was too late. Of course I'm not saying that had BFL delivered when promised there wouldn't be customers that miscalculated and made a poor investment necessarily. However it is peoples' prerogative to make any investment they choose, as long as they are screwing themselves and not other people most here won't care much. The important thing is to try to hold bitcoin companies to have ethical business practices and keep to promises they make to their customers so that customers have the information needed to make informed buying decisions (whether they end up good or bad). Bravo! You can see clearly what so many either cannot or will not. Keep up the good work! |
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I missed that post...............transparency applies to ALL,except BFL & Avalon........of course 
Just WOW 
