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1421  Economy / Speculation / Re: when will there be stability? on: September 03, 2011, 03:27:12 PM
The only thing that will bring stability relative to Bitcoin's torrid history is sheer mass. It won't happen until Bitcoin is a $Billion+ market.

Don't hold your breath...

Agreed, volatility becomes a far more expensive prospect when one BTC = 1,000 USD  Cheesy
1422  Other / Politics & Society / Re: comrades, is bitcoin a great leap forward for international socialism? on: September 03, 2011, 01:30:42 PM
Neither socialist nor libertarian, Bitcoin honest be  Cheesy
1423  Economy / Speculation / Re: Here we go again, another major price drop for bitcoins on: September 03, 2011, 02:25:41 AM
Where did you sell coins for $10.50? Mt. Gox has been trading 8.71 - 8.21 in the past 24 hours.

http://bitmarket.eu is a good place to sell at a premium. I know because I usually buy at a premium there. There are large differences in price just depending on whether you want to look at trades in USD or EUR.

(Since it's P2P it's difficult to arbitrage though since you get a several day delay)


Now, if only bitmarket.eu finally got their Paxum option running, like they said they would Cheesy
1424  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin Shrinking - The Long View on: September 02, 2011, 10:35:59 PM
I practically steal OSS code everyday in my line of work, without attribution, and I have zero qualms about it.

Quote
I do believe in compensation for work

It breaks your heart, doesn't it. Such abysmal failure at life resulting in anger, despair, and the self-delusion that somehow posting his ramblings here gives his life a shade of meaning.

So sad.
1425  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: These guys are UNBELIEVABLE. on: September 02, 2011, 07:05:06 PM
Now the real fun will begin... The fuckers are feeling threated by Bitcoin. It's a huge day for Bitcoin, believe me.

Believe me.  They can't do anything about it.

They could, however, start buying it up to get rid of bit coins.  I imagine if the price keeps going down, they'll do that exact thing, in an attempt to side-lining the project and destroying the coins that they buy. 
 
Now, this could have the effect of raising bit coin prices so that fractions of a coin become just as valuable as well.  Who knows, we'll see! 

I was going along similar lines here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=14163.0
1426  Other / Archival / Re: Would you subscribe to a kink.com site if you could pay with Bitcoin? on: September 02, 2011, 06:15:40 PM
Just a thought, but anyone willing to do this because of the anonymity of it might not be too inclined to send you a message about it. Might be better if you just post the details and let the pervs among us figure out how to go about it  Grin
1427  Economy / Speculation / Re: Let's recap on what we've seen in the past few months on: September 02, 2011, 05:07:15 PM
Though the lay man might not understand the finer technical details enough to comprehend the flaws in the Bitcoin system, the entire mystique surrounding the scam is just foul enough to impart the wisdom to stay away.

I explained the, for his use, necessary parts of Bitcoin to my hairdresser (!) yesterday, and showed him Bitcoin Wallet on my mobile.

He wants it, now. If we had what Bit-pay offers in my country he would be standing in line to sign up.

It might be flawed, but not as much as the existing credit card and banking system is for small merchants.

Why do you people still believe there's going to be bitcoin ASICs? How many goddamn times does it have to be drilled into your head that the economics will NEVER work out enough to develop one until BTC are trading for well over $50/coin steadily...

Yeah I had this argument in another thread a few weeks ago. People claimed there would NEVER be Bitcoin FPGAs.

I think it's the other way around actually. I won't even touch mining until we're at ASICs, since I consider the price to follow production cost until we hit the uptake vs deflation knee of the curve. GPU miners need to charge $6/BTC. FPGA miners can charge $0.5. ASIC miners can ...



Your fundamental inability to do simple math or understand economies of scale betrays you...

A good start to dealing with your anger issues would be to acknowledge that you are wrong (defxor is clearly able to do simple math and understands economies of scale) and say "I'm sorry".  Cheesy
1428  Economy / Speculation / Re: Let's recap on what we've seen in the past few months on: September 02, 2011, 03:44:56 PM
Though the lay man might not understand the finer technical details enough to comprehend the flaws in the Bitcoin system, the entire mystique surrounding the scam is just foul enough to impart the wisdom to stay away.

I explained the, for his use, necessary parts of Bitcoin to my hairdresser (!) yesterday, and showed him Bitcoin Wallet on my mobile.

He wants it, now. If we had what Bit-pay offers in my country he would be standing in line to sign up.

It might be flawed, but not as much as the existing credit card and banking system is for small merchants.

Why do you people still believe there's going to be bitcoin ASICs? How many goddamn times does it have to be drilled into your head that the economics will NEVER work out enough to develop one until BTC are trading for well over $50/coin steadily...

Yeah I had this argument in another thread a few weeks ago. People claimed there would NEVER be Bitcoin FPGAs.

I think it's the other way around actually. I won't even touch mining until we're at ASICs, since I consider the price to follow production cost until we hit the uptake vs deflation knee of the curve. GPU miners need to charge $6/BTC. FPGA miners can charge $0.5. ASIC miners can ...



Your fundamental inability to do simple math or understand economies of scale betrays you...

Ah, see, this is where you lost me. I've not found too many forum members with a better grasp of mathematics than defxor. If you stuck around, instead of predictably coming into the forums when there's a dip in price and equally predictably leaving it when the price rises, you'd know that too.
1429  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: TED discussion - Bitcoin - Commerce without Borders on: September 02, 2011, 03:36:27 PM
please dont ever compare bitcoin to atheism or the four horsemen of the apocalypse ever again

Well, I for one intend to do what I feel like doing. But perhaps it might be educational for you to understand that what I was comparing was two ideas, both of them controversial in some way or another, both engendering strong passions in both adherents and detractors, which nevertheless have resulted in two radically different outcomes when it comes to the TED conferences. In that sense, they are eminently comparable.
1430  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: TED discussion - Bitcoin - Commerce without Borders on: September 02, 2011, 03:28:01 PM
you guys can shit on TED all you want but im pretty sure they removed the bitcoin posting because of the general immaturity and bellicose postings, if you want to be taken seriously be the utmost professional you can... what was exhibited on that page before being taken down was not professional, invoked a flame war... yada yada yada
If it was anything like this forum, it makes sense that they removed it.


Yes, Evoorhees, perhaps you could start another TED conversation and not announce it on here, just to give it a chance to survive. On the other hand, you have to figure that when Sam Harris gives his TED talk, there's going to be hundreds of religious fanatics trying to derail it as well, yet somehow fail to do so.
1431  Other / Meta / Re: Time to abandon bitcointalk.org ? on: September 01, 2011, 08:28:29 PM
Obviously the supply is outpacing demand right now, hence the price move down. Its called a redistribution phase. I have no idea where you are pulling that 24 years figure from.

I read somewhere that it was about 25 years ago, a year ago. Apparently it's more like 29 years (either way, a really long time of inflation, given the attention span of the internet):

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#How_long_will_it_take_to_generate_all_the_coins.3F

Yup, supply will drop by half in a little over a year, then by half again four years later. The 24 years came from the same part of his body that supplies the gas he's full of.

"Hurrrrrrrrr"

Okay, gotcha. But that just means there will be new coins entering the system for the next 24 years. We all already knew that! Thats bitcoin basics. Look at it this way... 7 million coins in circulation currently. If the number of people using bitcoin doubles...there is still only about 7 million coins available, the price would need to roughly double to meet the demand.  Only 7500 new coins are created daily, and it will drop to only 3750 new coins per day within a year. Limited supply available, get them while you can.

Actually, the curve of new coin production is asymptotic. It will be constantly reaching closer to zero, without ever actually getting there. There could be a coin produced 245 years from now. It will never reach 21 million.

For practical purposes, the supply will be halved every four years. Right now it's marginally inflationary with respect to the growth rate of the BTC economy. If everything stays exactly where it is today, it will become more inflationary in the next few months, then suddenly drop to being marginally deflationary in early 2013. This is predictable and built into the code.

Elggawf either doesn't know, or chooses not to know  Wink
1432  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Need your help for academic legal paper re: int'l legal implications of Bitcoin on: September 01, 2011, 08:18:36 PM
Fantastic! Exposure to academic circles and discussion on all issues regarding Bitcoin can only be a good thing. Keep us posted.
1433  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: These guys are UNBELIEVABLE. on: September 01, 2011, 08:10:55 PM
"The potential Achilles heel of Bitcoin—that each server in the network contains a complete record
of all transactions—will almost certainly be addressed in future systems that distribute transaction
information so that no single server or small collection of servers contains a complete transaction
record."

i thought this was our strength?

It is the achilies heel because the complete transaction record can be combed through to pinpoint where the money went, thereby connecting identities to illegal transactions. Or something like that. To me trying to find a person by tracking down their money through the blockchain sounds almost impossible, but I guess really smart people could do it.

There seems to be a fair bit of disagreement on this point. The record is for the transactions themselves. Pairing those to any specific identity, while conceivable, may prove to be extremely difficult if someone has taken the steps to avoid detection.

Pretty much the same as cold hard cash, really.
1434  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: These guys are UNBELIEVABLE. on: September 01, 2011, 08:03:45 PM
"The potential Achilles heel of Bitcoin—that each server in the network contains a complete record
of all transactions—will almost certainly be addressed in future systems that distribute transaction
information so that no single server or small collection of servers contains a complete transaction
record."

i thought this was our strength?

It's law enforcement's Achilles Heel, that's why they say that, I think.
It's a good read. It's kind of boring though. Not much news really. But it does show Bitcoins impact and reaction from corporations and government.

Clearly Bitcoin is a problem for some people. This is a very good thing.  Cool

yeah, i thought it was boring too.  but what made it boring is that its not really a research piece.  no statistics, figures, graphs.  just alot of fear and innuendo justifying gov't counteraction.  something you'd expect from a gov't pawn.
The syntax of that sentence does not imply that it is the law enforcements achilles heel. Seems like they got it all wrong, this is what keeps btc from being counterfeited and prevents double spends. Harder to counterfeit than actual cash! That is one hell of a trait considering cash has been around for so long. An applause to mr Nakamoto.

Or Ms. Nakamoto  Cheesy
1435  Economy / Economics / Re: Question About Supply on: September 01, 2011, 07:45:56 PM
Actually turns out there is no problem after all, since more coins are issued when more miners join, up until the difficulty increase. It works out economically!

No, the total number of coins issued remains the same. The difficulty adjusts to compensate, depending on the number of miners.
1436  Economy / Speculation / Re: Here we go again, another major price drop for bitcoins on: September 01, 2011, 06:50:29 PM
There are millions of books on god, on how to beat the odds at the casino, on astrology and on any number of things for which there is no evidence.

Once again, what defxor is saying is that all those thousands of dollars you make EVERY WEEK are precisely in line with what would be expected out of a universe of traders all trying to make money.

Wall, meet head... head, meet wall.
There may not be any evidence of God or beating the odds at a casino or astronomy, but there are THOUSANDS of pieces of evidence for the effects of intelligent investing. These pieces of intelligence are in my banks vault. Actually banking is a good point. I let the bank look after some of my money. They invest it and GUARANTEE a modest interest rate of a few percent a year. Banks around the world all work the same way. How is that not PROOF? If it was all "random chance", these banks could offer no interest at all.

Again, there are A LOT of dummies out there who play but don't UNDERSTAND like some do. Perhaps the losses of these dummies means cancel out the profits of the more shrewd investors. That does NOT make investing a "random" process.

Man... Let me try one last time, for this I will borrow from Douglas Adams. He wasn't talking about investing, but I think the analogy will hold.

Imagine a little puddle of water wakes up one morning, looks around and thinks: Wow, I must be a really special puddle, because look, someone has gone to the trouble of making a hole in the ground into which I fit perfectly!

It is incontrovertible that the puddle fits perfectly in the hole, but there's nothing special about it. If there wasn't a hole, there wouldn't be a puddle to make the claim.

Now, you may think your special powers of analysis are what separate you from those who don't understand. But that is exactly what everyone thinks. And as has been demonstrated with the dartboard experiments, out of any given population, there will be some who will outperform, some will underperform, the curve is fairly well established here.

Take heart, though. If the variables were knowable, the whole market idea thingie would have collapsed decades ago... because someone would have written the book and... oh well, head and wall all over again.
1437  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [ARTICLE] Bitcoin To Collapse? on: September 01, 2011, 06:29:57 PM
Huh?

Right now Bitcoins are Inflating not Deflating good sir.

They will only start to "Deflate" when the 21,000,000 cap is reached.

But once again many, many people have a problem calling digital property "deflationary".


This is not true, you are being misleading with trivial semantics. Because there EXISTS a cap, bitcoins are DEFLATIONARY. It does not matter that the cap has not yet been reached, because everyone in the market has KNOWLEDGE of the caps inevitable existence. Therefore the market will treat the currency in a deflationary manner. You can read about deflation at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation.
You are being an idealist. I am trying to be rational here. If you can start up a network that is almost identical to Bitcoin at almost 0 cost, and have it relatively competitive in just a few months how can you claim that your 21 Million is divine? I understand Bitcoins will cap, but if the network cap is small and diluted due to competition from other currency's, than how much are we really going to make off it's deflationary properties.

The fact that there might be other currencies in no way implies that Bitcoin is inflationary. Those other currencies are, well, OTHER CURRENCIES. In fact, it is quite possible that in the future there will be other cryptocurrencies working in tandem with Bitcoin, which will be naturally inflationary, and will balance out the "deflationary spiral" fears (which are unfounded, but may have some effect anyway).

They'll still be other currencies, though.

And nobody is suggesting Bitcoin is divine, incidentally, that's just a troll line you tend to drop here and there hoping it will stick.
1438  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [ARTICLE] Bitcoin To Collapse? on: September 01, 2011, 06:27:16 PM
Huh?

Right now Bitcoins are Inflating not Deflating good sir.

They will only start to "Deflate" when the 21,000,000 cap is reached.

But once again many, many people have a problem calling digital property "deflationary".


This is not true, you are being misleading with trivial semantics. Because there EXISTS a cap, bitcoins are DEFLATIONARY. It does not matter that the cap has not yet been reached, because everyone in the market has KNOWLEDGE of the caps inevitable existence. Therefore the market will treat the currency in a deflationary manner. You can read about deflation at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation.

Agreed, any commodity with a finite existence is, in essence, deflationary. Gold has always been deflationary. More gold gets mined every day, but because we all understand it to be a finite resource, it's deflationary in nature.

With a currency it might be a slightly different analysis, as a currency exists within the bounds of its economy. Seen that way, Bitcoin is inflationary right now, all things being equal will become inflationary neutral in early 2013, and will then turn deflationary in 2017.
1439  Economy / Speculation / Re: Here we go again, another major price drop for bitcoins on: September 01, 2011, 06:23:22 PM
... and there's no support for the hypothesis that anyone has ever beaten the market trying to do that. That's the whole point. A lot of traders claim they do, but every time (plenty) anyone has looked into this it turns out that there's no predictive ability involved and the number of traders who beat the market is the same as is predicted by chance alone.

If you're really interested there's a lot of literature on the subject available. Taleb's "Fooled by randomness" is a great start.


This is a ridiculous claim. I make thousands of dollars EVERY WEEK simply by playing the stock market, not to mention the fortune I will make on bitcoin. I'm obviously not going to disclose my methods ( Wink), but I can assure you that it has nothing to do with "random chance". Go into any bookshop and you wil find many books on how to invest... I myself am thinking of writing one. Why would there be so many books on this topic it if it wasn't possible?

There are two sorts of people... Smart guys, who know the system after years of study. And then there's the primitive guys that don't quite follow what's going on. They look at the economy, but it is too complicated for them, so they just think everything happens randomly...

There are millions of books on god, on how to beat the odds at the casino, on astrology and on any number of things for which there is no evidence.

Once again, what defxor is saying is that all those thousands of dollars you make EVERY WEEK are precisely in line with what would be expected out of a universe of traders all trying to make money.

Wall, meet head... head, meet wall.
1440  Other / Meta / Re: Time to abandon bitcointalk.org ? on: September 01, 2011, 06:20:55 PM
Don't tell me you haven't yet realised what will really happen to bitcoin if "the masses" would ever start using it, right?

I personally have doubts it'll ever reach a sizable market, or grow to anything other than a minor niche in the payments industry. I don't think it will overtake Visa or the USD. I don't think the deflation will be that big of a deal really, and if it is - well then Bitcoin will make a fantastic social experiment.

Honestly though, unless we can do something about all the shit that's going on, I honestly don't think we'll ever make it to that point. Bitcoin is not a deflationary currency right now, and it will not be a deflationary currency for about 24 more years. The gradual slide in value is showing that the current rate of inflation is outpacing the demand for the currency. Two decades is a long time to expect the project to live, and I really do believe that if the project keeps growing (a huge if, IMHO), then in those two decades we'll solve the problems of lost coins in some way or another.

Obviously the supply is outpacing demand right now, hence the price move down. Its called a redistribution phase. I have no idea where you are pulling that 24 years figure from.

Yup, supply will drop by half in a little over a year, then by half again four years later. The 24 years came from the same part of his body that supplies the gas he's full of.
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