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Flash news! to become bitcoin rich you need to believe in cult and even better Astrology will tell you accuratly when to sell or buy! 666 \_/
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Dude...bro... You are STILL missing the freaking point!
No one is questioning the advancement of technology
or even our ability to predict...but its essentially
PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to make a computer that
would do 10^70 FLOPS.
Let's do the math, shall we:
1. size of atom is roughly 0.0000000000001 meters
...therefore...
2. Number of atoms in a meter = 10^13 not necessary but lets assume so
3. Number of atoms in a cubic meter = 10^39
...also...
4. speed of light = 299,792,458 metres per second
...thus...
5. time required for light to travel the distance of 1 meter =
1/299792458 seconds = .000000003335 seconds.
6. time required for light to travel the length of 1 atom =
0.000000000000000000003335 seconds.
7. If SOMEHOW, in this tiny timeframe,
a floating point operation could be
done using the space of a single atom,
you would get 2.99*10^20 FLOPS for each atom-size "bit".
(take the reciprocal of the above number)
8. So a cubic-meter sized computer filled with atoms
back to back, each calculating at the speed of light
would still only get you 2.99 *10^59 FLOPS.
9. to get to 10^70, you would need 33 billion of these
cubic meters sized computers. Stacked end to end, these cubes
would go to the moon and back 42 times.
See, it always comes down to the answer: 42.
I'm not going trough all the zeros not because it's not interesting, but because it hurt my eyes, please use Exponentiation. Just to answer you claim above I just have one question : between the nucleus and and the electrons what do we have?, and inside the nucleus between Quarks what do we have? and what is the scale of this thing in comparison of real stuff there, maybe you understand what I'm getting at by now, because you made a hypothesis above about the possible number of atoms in cubic meter. Also another thing that picked my attention which is 2.99 *10^59 FLOPS so for you this number seems to be fine right? You agree that this number is more than enough to brute force 128bit AES almost instantly right? ok do you know the link between 256bit ECDSA in private key and 128bit AES?
No we won't. You seem to vastly underestimate how large 10^70, 2^128, and 2^160 are.
In 40 years Moore's law has provided roughly 1*10^6 improvement in transistor density and a roughly comparable improvement in cost per unit of computing power and power per unit of computing power. It is highly likely that Moore's law will not be sustained for another 40 years, Intel may actually slip below that "benchmark" for the first in this decade. The cost to build smaller and smaller process nodes is increasing exponentially and the time between process nodes (which should be no more than 24 months) is slowly inching upward. Lets not even get into the fact that there are only 8 maybe 9 process nodes before we get down to the transistors using 3 atoms a piece.
Still lets assume that an equivalent amount of improvement occurs over the next 4 decades. That is a ~10^6. Today top supercomputers are PFLOP scale. Lets ignore the fact that Integer performance is often a magnitude worse and that it takes tens of thousands of operations to complete a single keypair (and even more to perform lookups). Lets just naively assume that 1 ECDSA key generation and lookup can be done in 1 FLOP (which doesn't even make sense but trying to be ultra conservative). That would mean today a top super computer could do ~34 PK/s (peta keys per second). To keep the math simple lets just round up to 100 PK/s or 1*10^17 kps.
If we then assume a 1*10^6 factor improvement in relative performance in the next 40 years that would make a top SC something on the order of 1*10^23 kps. Now lets assume you build one for every man woman and child on the planet (estimated to be ~10 B in 2054). That would put world wide key breaking power at 1*10^33 kps. You aren't even within the same ballpark as 10^70.
In reality performance will probably slip below Moore's law, you can't process on key per clock cycle, and even if you could we are looking at an energy requirement greater than what is used by the entire human race for all other purposes.
I've already made a more precise calculus in my previous post about, but lets take your calculus for the moment The 10^6 factor of improvement is wrong, is the minimum of current improvement is between 10^3 and 10^4 per decade (I'll invite you to check the list of the top supercomputers in the world and approve this fact by yourself (again we are talking about classical computing we aren't even considering QC for example) We also agree that Moors law in electronics has it limits due the Quantum effects at the small scale, let me just remind you that Flops != transistor count, it's one of many facture, such architecture, alghorithms and firmwires....ect ect but this is just a side note) . 10^17KPS is your initial point right? with a factor of improvement between 10^3 and 10^4 per decade, lets just say 2 decades of 10^4 and 2 others 10^3 in over the 4 decades you took as an example, we should have an improvement of 10^14 so we will have by then (if we assume only classic computing which is by then would be obsolete in my opinion anyway we are at 10^30+ (and this is something I've already mentioned in my initial comment, and this is goes with what I said in my previous comments and I'm pretty sure it was a reply to you " in the next few decades, we will reach 10^30-10^40Flops which is more than to crach 128Bit AES in a few seconds, and we will eventually reach 10^70+" And like I said before this just considering classical computing, which will become obsolete in the next decade or two, at least in terms of supercomputing |
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Anyone took in consideration you dont actually loose energy when you flip a bit ?
A processor just converts electric energy into heat energy . in theorie technology could be developed to convert all the heat back into electricity. it already exists , it is just not very efficient at the moment.
While this is true, the second law of thermodynamics doesn't allow it or rather you can't do it indefinitly |
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I'll let Bruce educate you. One of the consequences of the second law of thermodynamics is that a certain amount of energy is necessary to represent information. To record a single bit by changing the state of a system requires an amount of energy no less than kT, where T is the absolute temperature of the system and k is the Boltzman constant. (Stick with me; the physics lesson is almost over.)
Given that k = 1.38×10-16 erg/°Kelvin, and that the ambient temperature of the universe is 3.2°Kelvin, an ideal computer running at 3.2°K would consume 4.4×10-16 ergs every time it set or cleared a bit. To run a computer any colder than the cosmic background radiation would require extra energy to run a heat pump.
Now, the annual energy output of our sun is about 1.21×1041 ergs. This is enough to power about 2.7×1056 single bit changes on our ideal computer; enough state changes to put a 187-bit counter through all its values. If we built a Dyson sphere around the sun and captured all its energy for 32 years, without any loss, we could power a computer to count up to 2192. Of course, it wouldn't have the energy left over to perform any useful calculations with this counter.
But that's just one star, and a measly one at that. A typical supernova releases something like 1051 ergs. (About a hundred times as much energy would be released in the form of neutrinos, but let them go for now.) If all of this energy could be channeled into a single orgy of computation, a 219-bit counter could be cycled through all of its states.
Thanks refresh on the basics thermodynamics, The calculation is a bit off and pretty simplistic and in fact the amount of energy needed is more than that, but again that calculation is only taking into consideration TODAYS computing power and we are just repeating our selfs here,And I don't understand what you don't get here, there is no point on starting a computation today to do such a thing and this what the argument above is presenting no more no less. the minimum amount of time needs is in the order of 10^55 years, in by the second law of themodynamics by that time there will be nothing left in the universe not a single star the only things left would be blackholes and even those will eventually start evaporating (degenerescence or blackhole era) Anyway let me simplify things since a lot of people seems to be confused here: Just to put things in a human scale, let's assume that there are no oceans and you can "walk" all the way between continents, a few centuries ago, it would be impossible to go around the world (objective here to go around the world at the equator 10 times) and at the period the best you can do on ground is walking/running using horses and as we can it was impossible to come even close to a faction of the necessary distance to achieve the objective (the circumference of earth at the equator is 40 075,017, and your speed won't exceed an average of 5km an hour it's easy to see the issue here we are talking easily millennias ). Today, it take the International space station around 90min to orbit the earth so 10 orbits should take around 15hrs.
brute-force attacks against 256-bit keys will be infeasible until computers are built from something other than matter and occupy something other than space.
This is totally wrong, and it is your own misinterpretation, and you are welcome to quote the exact word they used. I'm pretty sure what they mean is that with todays technology to be able to brute force against 256bit you'll need a computer of a size bigger than the universe (which is to say yet again Impossible!) I'll also invite you just for the sake of reference, to check the 80s tech and security magazines if you have access to those in your city library and check what they were saying about 56bit encryption at the time, you'll be really surprised on how the argument you are advancing are similar if not the same of what was said at the time. |
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Someone as smart and educated as yourself should be the first to acknowledge that
there are limitations inherent in the physical universe in which we live.
Saying we're eventually going to get to 10^70 flops seems like an insane comment
that denies such a truth.
This was answered before and I'll answer this again 10^70Flops is something inconceivable today! I don't think we disagree with this point, and I've been repeating this for a dozens of times, today we cannot brute force a 256bit encryption heck not even close to 128bit this is not even a point. Where we disagree is in terms of future prospect. In the beginning of the 80s (I provided the numbers) Supercomputers were calculating the KiloFlops or 10^3 Flops! todays 10^16 Flops was inconceivable at the time, 56bit encryptions in the 80s and 90s were in that aspect impossible to crack and it would have taken Billions upon billions upon billions of years with the computing time, Today a supercomputer like the Tianhe-2 could crush in less than 3s (I can provide the math for the above if needed, as I did before.) in a similar way our computing power will move on in the next few decades and eventually it will reach a similar point to what is happening to 56bit encryption. This is how science progress, and this is not limited to computing (while there is a reason tech is the are that progressing the fastest, being geopolitical reasons, economic reasons, defense reasons.....) Lets just see other science domains, for example the size of the universe, in the beginning of the 1900s we taught the universe was limited to the milky way, a few years we learned that milky-way is just one of many galaxies and today we know that only in the observable universe we have trillions of galaxies and it's the same story for any other field I can go on with this but it's not the point. tl,dr: brute forcing a private key being it 128bit or 256bit is impossible today it's stupid to even try, and I've already provided the math for this and we do not disagree on this, my point is, in the next few decades we will eventually reach the point where we will have enough computing power to be able to do so as happened in the past!
And yet you're still an idiot. Further proof that education doesn't make you smart.
I've worked in the computer industry for several decades. Everybody in this industry knows that Moore's Law is an observation of a trend, not a fundamental guarantee of future performance. And everyone knows that the constraints of physics (which you yourself claim to hold a degree in) will put a halt to that trend.
But I'm not going to try to convince you of these fundamental truths, or try to explain the math to you. Trying to educate educated idiots is a provably obvious waste of time. I'm just going to point out what a stupid fuckwit you are and be done with it.
Oh, but I will give you a tip: smart people know how to recognize people smarter than themselves. This is a critical differentiator between idiots and smart people.
Convince me? with what? Insults? please tell me/us, because so far it seems to be the only thing you are able to do, no argumentation, no facts, not able to maintain a proper conversation as a civilized person, I'm just going to point out what a stupid fuckwit you are and be done with it Are you twelve ? You are making yourself looks worst and worst, so again where are your proves? where are your facts? your arguments? weren't you calling me an uneducated idiot in your previous comment? what's happened to that? Just one last peace of advice since you seem to be concerned about your e-ego more than anything else which is the biggest vice of someone who wants to learn a few things which is of course the total opposite of intelligence, just take a few seconds to reflect and leave your e-ego for youtube comments or something where everyone there is an expert... (And I believe we all are here in bitcointalk to learn a thing or two being it in terms of cryptocurrency, trading .....ect or just to talk to people from different cultures) . |
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O.o, the top 100 launchers by rating are all free .... dunno how you managed to get to payed launchers...
I know it free. But you gotta pay extra money in order to use all of it function, like you gotta pay for the premium version To be honest, when it comes to launcher I didn't use them in a while, but I didn't use them there were some launcher with limitations, but most didn't have the "free to use" format, I used to install different roms and even other OS on my devices before I had PDAs and XDA was a heaven for me, in 2009 I brought the HTC HD2 and in the time I owned this dev classic, I installed everything possible and imaginable on it, Now I rock an HTC One, I don't feel like rooting or tweaking stuff in it, it's elegant, simple and quick  |
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I would love to see Alien vs Humans war, can't wait.
lol Battle of LA ? Pacific Rim? We can count on Murrica to save the world when it happens Well on a serious note, I just hope the people in that plane are safe, and all this is just some plot for some american series like Lost, or in worst case the plane was hijacked and it parked in some airport somewhere even it is really unlikely |
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Aside the mandatory stuff, in terms of security, encryptions, ergonomics...., I think the most important part is trust and total transparency especially when it comes to fonds,
So how to rise trust, I think one way is to apply everything in regards to lean management, and getting ISO Certifications which means getting audit of course, being it documents management ISO 9001 and co, or anything else, security, management, funds, technology ....ect ect of course not any exchange can do this, I believe this should be mandatory to the BIG guys, and medium exchanges should be encouraged to do so, as for small exchange, I think the trust factor will grow as the exchange grows.
Also one more things, Exchanges should explain to users that the majority or the big portion of their fonds should be left in their own wallet and in cold storage if possible, and to avoid any bad practice which can happen due to lack of knowledge (some believe that exchanges are synonymous to banks which is not the case at all)
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Go ahead. Extrapolate a decade or two. In fact, go ahead and extrapolate to the theoretically limits of the perfect computer harnessing the entire energy of the sun. You still can't even count to 2^256, let alone do the calcuations to brute force a Bitcoin private key. Re-read the graphic in post #2.
The only extrapolation I would do is to refer you to my previous comment, Ok I'll be helpfull and quote my self since you didn't bother to read the previous pages. Feel free to list your counter arguments but just for the sake of not repeating our selfs I'll advise to read previous posts, because I'm pretty sure you'll ask similar questions that were asked previously and been replied. You (like most people) have difficulty grasping how large 2^256 is (or even 2^128 which is the effective security of 256 bit ECDSA keys). The 128 bit or 256 bit seems deceptively small. As a math literate person I do gasp how huge 2^256 is. Nobody credible is saying classical computers could brute force keys in thousands of years..... it would be billions of years using all the energy of our sun. That also assumes you have a perfect computer. And I do agree with this as in TODAY, the math is simple, our most powerfull supercomputers calculates in 30sh PFlops that's about 30x10^15 Flops Time in year = 3600x(24x365+6) = 31557600s and 2^256 ~ 1.14x10^77 so it will take to crack it with the usumption that it will require 100Flops per combination = 1.14x10^79/(31557600x30x10^15) =~ 1.20x10^55 years ! BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT! My point is if you consider only classical computing in the last 30 years we've moved from KiloFlops to PentaFlops or 10^15Flops in terms of processing power, it is easy to assume that in the next few decades, we can easly achieve 10^30 / 10^40 (we've already gone past the point of cracking 2^128 or 128bits in a few seconds) and it will reach eventually 10^70+. In the 80/90s people (like you) were claiming 56 bit encryption was impossible to crack, and you know what, it takes like 3s and less to break with our current supercomputers! And this doesn't take into consideration Alghorithm break trought as I mentioned, even the current classic computer with the proper alghorithms can simulate Quantum computers and have similar results in some areas for example......... Now if you add in the mix Quantum computing which will bring computing to a whole other level as the potentiel from a dozen of Qubit and the impact they have is already being proven. None of those (except QC) would do anything more than switching from a teaspoon to a bucket when trying to empty an ocean. Wrong as proven above. a) The private key isn't random enough (insufficient entropy due to flaw in PRNG)
b) ECDSA is cryptographically weakened/broken.
c) It becomes possible to build a QC with the tens of thousands of qubits necessary to implement Shor's algorithm against a 256 bit ECDSA public key (and public key is known).
It's not limited to this as proven above but : a = Possible as proven with AES thanks to NSA Middeling b = Possible c = it will happen in the next decade or the one folowing, considering we've moved from 4 Qubits to 128 in a very short laps of time heck Dwave just released a 512 Qbits Processor and they claim to have a 1000 Qubits in their lab ready to roll http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/01/10/this-company-sold-google-a-quantum-computer-heres-how-it-works/Also the Shor Alghorithm is not the most efficient Alghrorithm beyond 600 Qubits in comparaison to Fourier Transform On one hand factoring and calculation logs and the other the usual linear transform that can be decomposed to I or Unitary Matrix, which Qubits likes.
The only thing more annoying than idiots are idiots that think they're smart.
You, sir, are an idiot. No amount of technobabble (that you no doubt read somewhere on Gizmodo) is going to convince the actually smart people in the room that you have any idea what you're talking about. Best thing to do at this point is just to shut the fuck up, lest you look any stupider than you already do.
You're welcome.
I was going to ignore your comment, but I decided to reply to it. Anyway, I doubt someone who understands math, physics, engineering, cryptography is an idiot. Even if it doesn't matter, I have a Bachelor degree in fundamental physics, a Master degree in Mechanical Engineering, a European Masters in Management and Business Strategy and also preparing a PhD if you doubt these I'm ready to provide all the necessary proves if you are ready to bet some BTCs Escrowed of course! So before calling other people Idiots and stupid without having the minimum skills to understand what they are saying please look at your mirror, you might have a hint. As for the others I really apology for this little rant, because I believe that bitcointalk in general and this section in particular is not for epen contest, and I agree I should've just ignored, but sometimes you are in that day when you are a bit edgy. |
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Yes you can, but they filled for bankruptcy so you won't be getting anything from them although it can worsen their case, if anything bad shows up in the investigation
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water on mars? they found it apparently  *ba dum tiss* It doesn't count though. The chocalate bar name should be in quotes. ouch my bad! |
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Pretty that some of us that joined the bitcoin movement tree years ago can afford even better than that (she is hot tho), Still I prefer my girlfriend (she is not as hot but it's someone that I enjoy my time with in many different levels and not just for sexual desires)
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I know that a lot of people that mentioned aliens are trolling, but there might be one believer or two out there and just to reply to the troll bait I guess, let's assume that aliens came from another solar system and they have the technology to traverse the immense distances of space and reach earth, the technological gap between our civilization would be so huge, that our so called intelligence would be considered of the level of microbe or even less, and even if you consider that our intelligence is considered as of that of a little tiny insect, we are really worthless for them to consider hijacking a plane.... (well considering they traveled in space to other planets where statically speaking there must be more interesting stuff than us humans for them to see.
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I'll try to see it as soon as I can find a decent copy. Cams ruin the experience. Maybe you should go to a place called the cinema? Cinema? Give me a break, I have a home cinema  But really, it doesn't calculate: you have to drive there and pay to sit in a crowded room with all those popcorn eating, shit talking entities. Yeah for realz, who needs to socilize and get laid, who Am I kidding, my mistake! No need to leave deh room with pc! |
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what song??? Darude Sandstorm? ok I'm out lol
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I dont understand how in this day and age a Boeing 777 can drop out of the sky and leave no clues as to where it is.
I see a bunch of speculation from the news agencies regarding the Iranian passengers who used stolen passports to board the plane bla bla bla.
I wonder if its possible that the plane was hijacked, and then was flown low enough as to not appear on radar and landed in some hatred filled country. Like North Korea for example.
Is this possible?
Anyone here have any ideas on what might have happened here. I fly a lot and its beyond me that this can happen.
Shit happens? It's a big ocean. My $.02. The Ocean is indeed big, but the area in question is not, and it's a tense geopolitical area, India vs Pakistan, China vs the whole countries of the Area (Taiwan, Japan, Philipines.....) the area is monitoried by all type of radars, defence systems, satelites ect...., I still can't belive that a Plane like that disapeared unnoticed, some already have the information they just don't want to show their capabilities to others (range of their radars, submarines ect ect) |
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Are you still looking for somebody to help manage the website? I'm trying to help spread the word of bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies in northafrica ( As I am pretty familliar with north african countries we can talk about this trought pm), and also the subsaharian countries that speaks arabic/french/english.
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O.o, the top 100 launchers by rating are all free .... dunno how you managed to get to payed launchers...
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