1. Your debate starts and ends at the point where you consider Evan's actions immoral. You are entitled to think that and nobody can tell you anything about it.

2. Your debate is lost when you are saying things that are non-factual, like Evan ripping people off, and then citing "high quality" witnesses with "high quality" arguments, like those which have been presented so far.

Thank you for your interest, if genuine. However, to quote Hillary Clinton (since you mentioned the Clintons a lot in some of your posts):

"It’s a stark fact that the United States has less than five percent of the world’s population, yet we have almost 25 percent of the world’s total prison population."

I'm in the 95%+ of the global population (=non US citizen). I'm also unaffected by the prison-mania of the USA, FinCEN, SEC etc. Not that if I were affected I would have something to worry about.

Do you think your accusations hold any weight right now?

You quoted A BIG XMR BAGHOLDER ffs:


The other day you even went to the XMR thread to call for reinforcements from the Monero troll brigade:


I mean, really?

Are we still debating this?

Icebreaker showed us how large of a scammer Evan is, because ....there was a girl in the Miami booth. Millions were lost that day by that girl

Prior to that trolling intervention, Smooth showed us how Evan's market analysis led to the spectacular scamming of DASH investors who ....made 70% profits

And prior to that, we learned of some guy who felt cheated because he supposedly didn't know what was going on or that DRK was issuing ...."40.000 darkcoins per block" A lie, as can be proven in the blockchain explorer.

Your whole bunch here is #REKT.

Oh, here we go again: Who did he rip off?

You know what's irrelevant? Trolling this thread with DRK-related bullshit.

How about we keep it clean and allow it to serves its purpose, not as an altcoin mud arena, but as a comprehensive list of actual scammers, that actually ripped off people.

=>

Very reliable "witness":


...and he just so happens to have an issue with BCN and DASH, the two major competitors to XMR...

...and he sold at a loss... "early on"... when that's impossible because early on (meaning three months) darkcoin's price was extremely stable around the 0.0012 - 0.0016 range, until mid April '14 when it exploded upwards by 5-10-15 times. And if he came onboard even ...earlier on, he could have bought for 0.00002x to 0.000x, so it would be mathematically impossible to lose money at the 0.001x range.

TPTB don't be so naive in things related to the Monero community.

[offtopic]
Yeah wrong word, make it a "friend". I'm not native english speaker... in greek the equivalent of friend is φιλος* (male) and φιλη (female). English doesn't differentiate genders when you say "friend". You have to add an extra word to explain it instead of an extra letter. It's slightly impractical and then there is extra confusion on top of it (because if you add the girl to the friend, you get girlfriend which has a different meaning).

* Φιλος / philo (prefix) / philo-sopher = friend of sophia (wisdom).
[/offtopic]

You know monero trolls are #REKT, when they say Evan belongs in a list of people that substantially ripped people off by quoting:

a) Some idiot in reddit who was saying DRK was issuing 40k DRKs per block
b) Evan saying 0.01 / dash is cheap (current price 0.017) - in other words the trolls had to do one job: Find some incriminating evidence where Evan ripped people of their money and they found evidence where Evan actually made 70% profit for those who factored-in his market analysis in their decision making process
c) An incident about a girl in a bikini.

You are literally wasting this (valuable) thread by your anti-darkcoin / anti-Evan obsession.

Oh no, Evan is now a scammer because one guy called his bikini girlfriend to the Miami booth... so much scamming everywhere... People lost millions that day when they were seeing that bikini girl. Billions even

Way beyond 0.007.

Do you think you are somehow absolved, by saying "oh we just took over the scam project and continued it"?

If you made the same questions you make regarding Darkcoin, you would ask yourself "and why didn't we relaunch and create a fair coin, instead of basing our coin in the foundations of a scam"? See the hypocrisy? And you pretend to have the moral edge?

Roach was telling you "relaunch", you were like "oh we'll fix it with the least harmful fix". Tacotime was also "oh it's just a week's old coin, we can also fuck over early adopters and make the coin infinite, instead of 18mn hard-cap". I mean real legit and professional stuff:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=582080.20

Pages 2/3/4...

Arguments like "oh it's a new coin, a week old, we can surely make changes because right now we are new and, well, in the long run it doesn't matter so much"... But darkcoin can't make any changes. No... then Evan is a scammer for making changes. Fucking double standards for the win. Seriously, don't get me started with this.


AHAHAHAHAHA minimal impact... yeah right. Downplaying your scam and saying "ah the other scam is larger".

I guess those selling their 0.01 XMRs, mined by the non-crippled miner, had "minimal impact" when scamming people.

No scam here people, move along... minimal impact.


Even the example you gave me is showing that people made money, not lost:

The price on the charts you are showing me, at that time stamps, was 0.01.

Today we are +60-80% up at a price range of 0.016 to 0.018.

The scam here is overwhelming


Go make a proper interface for your Monero scam, where your insiders where like "ohh we want it to be hard to use so that the masses come much later" (ie adoption obstacles by design, to maximize the impact of future offloading to investors who will only come when Monero becomes usable in terms of interface).


1. You are confusing Evan ripping people off with trading between market players.

2. Even so, the initial pump was 2 years ago.

A year later one could sell around the same price level (plus having reaped a year of MN rewards)

Two years later one could sell while having 2 years of MN rewards. Which is another "scam" accusation because it allows holders to multiply their coins through the Masternode Reward system. So, you'll claim if they compensate lost value (or gain more value) by mining more coins through the MNs, it's a scam. If they just lose value and not compensate, it's still a scam. In your twisted minds whether the holder preserves value, increases value or loses value, it's ALWAYS a scam. Which just goes to show the lengths of your hell-bent intent to use negative tactics to influence your opponents.

3. If you go by the logic that any market movement that ends up in a downward movement is a scam, then you are promoting a market logic where the only way a market cannot be a scam, is if price ALWAYS goes upwards. A market where everyone who buys always wins. Such a (rapidly moving) market does not exist to the best of my knowledge. If it did exist, it would probably reach infinite marketcap levels by everyone throwing at it everything they had, including their homes - as they would always get more value back.

4. If you insist on that logic, then your Monero team and pumpers scammed investors by an ATH of 0.0111 and it's current price is 0.0035. This is 3.15 times down. People who bought at Monero's ATH have lost ~70% of their money - even at the current "pumped" Monero prices. Who scammed them Smooth? "Evan the Instaminer" who had nothing to do with Monero, or the Monero pumpers and scammers who were dumping easily mined coins and selling them for inflated prices and publicly acknowledging so in the respective threads (how many BTC they were getting per day by their enhanced miners and selling them to naive investors)?

1. From what I'm seeing here: https://m.reddit.com/r/DRKCoin/comments/22jd9d/darkcoin_hate/

The post is 719 days ago.

With a date calculator, -719 days ago = 15 April 2014.

So this guy comes up and says he discovered ...irregularities in the coin's launch...

...when in April 7 (more than a week prior), eduffield proposed the airdrop fix:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=559932.0

...and he also claims that there is no trasparency... yeah I mean the issue was sooooo hidden that the dev said "it's causing us problems, let's fix it" - a proposal by the dev which created huge community uproar and had people rage-quitting / rage-dumping. But that guy saw nothing and heard nothing...

2. The user makes false or malicious claims:


=> Height 3061 / Generation: 500 + 0.064 total fees

http://explorer.dash.org/block/00000001f79738a7d33f3ab11942e3b171ad385c248c63c91dde999025010162

3. Did that guy lose any money, or more specifically did Evan rip him off in some way?

If he bought post-launch, he bought at 0.000025 per BTC. Price in mid April 2014 was around 100 times as much. If he waited a few more days, his money would be another 5x at least (500x). Where did he lose money? How did Evan rip him off? I call bullshit.

This IS Monero related.


The above was posted by known Monero troll Icebreaker, on the DASH thread. Otherwise I would be totally oblivious to the existence of this thread.

TPTB has confessed a few months ago that Smooth (a Monero dev) talked to him about DASH (obviously in a negative light) and ever since he has been used as a proxy-critic.

It is not surprising that he believed Smooth's lies, such as "ohhh Evan cut the coins down", when in fact that was a temp glitch from the code changes, and was set back up to a variable number that could even exceed the initial 84mn coins (it would depend based on difficulty). The final cut in supply was NOT Duffield's decision. Duffield came into the thread, he gave us the poll and we voted on it on whether we wanted lower or higher supply. The same happened with the instamine trolling back in march 2014/april 2014, when we got a similar poll regarding how to fix the instamine distribution and we, as users, rejected the proposed airdrop because there was already sufficient redistribution by that time.

Debruyne, Smooth, Icebreaker... the monero dream team came here, out of pure altruism, to show the world how big of a scammer eduffield is...

How about some actual victims where Evan took their money. Oh you have none... I see... So the only thing we have is butthurt altcoin competitors, trying to destroy the functionality of a thread that is intended for a very specific and very important purpose, down to the level of an altcoin mud contest-thread.

Smooth, if you repeat the word SCAM a hundred times, it doesn't make it so.

Why don't you take a look at your Monero which WAS CODED INTENTIONALLY AS A SCAM with an INTENTIONALLY CRIPPLED MINING CODE, so that some SCAMMERS could mine multiple times what naive miners were mining.

Oh monero had a fair launch... but we forgot to tell people that they were mining a fraction of what the non-crippled guys were doing... We didn't scam anyone... really. We are honest.

As for "disclosures", go on Smooth. Make your own... Tell people you are a dev of Monero, a DASH-competitor, and along with others have been trolling DRK for 2 years. Tell people that your Monero people are underworld-type of guys who are threatening businesses who intend to adopt DASH. Go on...

"By copying, scamming, trolling, threatening and manipulating, we ....may some day succeed"... that's Monero's slogan.

Implausible? DASH had a failed launch and RE-launched.

Now, if it aborted a second launch and did a third one, then you'd hear: "ahhh... the highly qualified dev made it appear, with his 3 launches, that he is some kind of incompetent dev that can't even create a clone-coin so as to divert miners elsewhere. He knew that noone would bother mining a joke coin and he intentionally and maliciously pretended that darkcoin would be such in order to mine it himself"

See? You can never win. But Evan went on and proposed an airdrop to fix the distribution which was voted down. The only thing you said about this is ..."sockpuppets".

Now, remember, Darkcoin had Litecoin's codebase, although altered in certain parameters. Still, the diff readjustment had similar issues as Litecoin - which in itself was instamined:

http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=a_massive_investigation_of_instamines_and_fastmines_for_the_top_alt_coins#litecoin

"...we see a well defined curve that demonstrates instamining occurred, showing 450,000 LTC being created in less than 6 hours."

So, why didn't Litecoin's dev abort the launch?
Why didn't Litecoin's dev propose to fix the distribution, like Evan? Ooops.

Plus:

Why aren't you arguing about putting Litecoin dev on the list?
Why aren't you arguing putting every single PoW/PoS hybrid, where PoW is over in a few days, in the list?
Why aren't you arguing in putting every single PoS coin dev in the list, if you believe PoS coins are inherently scammy?
Why aren't you arguing in putting every single ICO coin dev in the list, if you believe ICOs are inherently scammy?
Why aren't you arguing in enriching the list with every single dev that launched a scamcoin back in 13/14/15 with the sole intention of stealing people's money, where the dev took money and left, etc etc? I'm talking about actual scams where people lost their money and the coin's marketcap went to zero.

As for satoshi, the coins he controls are not 1% (or 150.000)... numbers floating around are in the range of 1mn+.

Mark has victims. Actual victims. With actual money that were in his custody and which he stole or "lost".

If you can't tell the difference, you are an idiot.

If you can tell the difference and you pretend that you don't, you are immoral, trying to accuse someone of something that he didn't do.

I've stated my case, I have nothing further to add.

Yeah, like Wall Street, and New York in particular, are somehow very Bitcoin-friendly

If someone is negatively biased, he will find anything he wants to crucify another. For example:

Say an investor or Evan sells some of his coins: "Ohhh he dumped and got a profit, scamming others"
Say an investor or Evan keeps his coins in MNs: "Ohhh he is profiting from the MNs, perpetuating the scam"

See? You can't win in this game. You are always at the mercy of an accuser.

Same for bitcoin... You could say Satoshi ...solomined like 1mn coins, so every single bitcoiner is immoral for even accepting such a scheme where the creator is a billionaire. You can also say Satoshi is immoral himself for not destroying his coins. You can say he is a scammer because of P&Ds.... you can say all sorts of things.

Tomorrow you'll be making your own crypto or crypto-platform.

You've already stated your intention to not inform this community. I can already tell you, that, in accordance with the unwritten "terms of fairness", you can be called by someone else, as a scammer stealth miner. You are saying you are talking with ...investors... You can be accused of setting up a scam with whales, a scam that will profit the early investors at the expense of the later investors - who of course weren't notified of your project, so that they can not participate from the beginning... You can also be accused of being purposefully negative in all things related to other crypto with the malicious intent of profiting from promoting your own superior "solution". When it comes to mining, if you choose cpu mining, you'll be called a scammer because a) "oh it's all botnets" or b) as soon as a more evolved version of the miner comes out someone will imply that you had such a more evolved cpu miner all along, helping you stealthmine your own coin. If you go GPU, which naturally takes some time to get up to speed in new algos in terms of optimization, you can again be called a scammer for the same reason. You could even be accused of colluding with FPGA programmers to solomine at extreme speeds, since you had foreknowledge of your algo specs. The list can go on and on and on. Like, how is your own compensation going to work?

If you have investor money, then obviously someone can control you based on the control of money. So you are selling out your user base to your investors. If you do an ICO, you can be called a scammer due to the way coins are created by the move of a magic wand, central-bankers style. If you do a premine, you can be called a scammer. If you take whale donations you can be accused of getting immoral benefits for behind-the-scenes deals. Even if you work for 0$ and make a coin and get nothing for it, and I mean absolutely nothing, one can still call you a scammer. Why? Because coins that have a development plan are going to have development announcements. Thus the dev is always ahead of the market by knowing (inside info) what is being worked upon. When he makes an announcement that "we'll be releasing this fantastic feature tomorrow" and the market goes +30% or +100%, he can go long and profit through insider trading. Nobody even needs to prove you are actually trading your coin or project. By the mere fact that you have inside info that is pumping the market on its announcement, you can be accused for betting on your foreknowledge of events. You'll look even "sketchier" if you are working for 0$, because then people will be like "huh? so how is this guy funded? Ah, there's where he gets his money".

And, people can craft arguments that can lock you in as a scammer, no matter what you do. If you do A, they'll say you are a scammer. If you do the opposite (B), they can also say you are a scammer. Thus no matter what you do, they'll cry "scam". Even things like going public with your own full name can be used against you... If you are anonymous => you are a scammer. If you are not anonymous, and you give people your linkedin account, it's because you want to lure them better into your scam, by lowering their defenses and trusting you. If your coin goes lower, your old investors got scammed. If your coin goes higher, you are scamming the newbies who are investing in the pump... See? You can't win. EVER.

So let's deal with more tangible things, relative to this list, like, did Evan rip anyone off? The answer is NO.

Does he belong in a list with ...Karpeles? FFS, the answer is obvious.

"The list is reserved for those who were instrumental in substantially ripping off folks in the cryptocurrency space."

Nobody got ripped off. There are no "victims" of Evan, nobody can say they ...got ripped off by Evan. Get over it.

To use your favorite words... you are conflating morality, ethics, etc with lists like the one in this thread. Your points are orthogonal relevant to the context of this thread.

The irrationality presented here is a reverse halo effect, where one gets attributed more negatives than he deserves, due to bias-induced dislike.

If you were acting rationally, you'd understand there are things you can do and things you can't do in situations like these, and that those things have the appropriate place to be conducted.

What you can do:

- Make a list of "immoral devs" who are running "sketchy" or "shady" or "illegal" coins, and put Evan in there. It's your take on the issue and your personal right to do so. Some will agree, some will disagree, but it's all subjective - except the actual facts.
- Proclaim a moral high ground and look down upon those who do not adhere to it. Again it's your take on the issue and it's kind of subjective, so...
- Accuse Evan for things he actually did.

What you can't do:

- Put Evan in a child molester or wife-beater list
- Put Evan in a terrorist list
- Put Evan in a list of people who ripped other people off (<= we are here)

...and do all that just because you have various DΑSH-related issues or dislike, or bias vs Evan.

And why you can't do all these things? Because none of them are true and they reflect negatively on you as a person for trying to pass them as facts when they are not.

How would you feel if you were accused of something that you didn't do? Do you understand the principle of don't do unto others what you don't want to be done to you?

You can say Evan instamined an amount of DRK and that this could be sketchy, shady, immoral, or something that you can't support and that you dislike everyone who supports a coin like that. That's your moral preference and it is respected.

Now, from that point you make a giant leap. Can you say he ripped people off? Where? When? How? This is your irrationality. You want to object to something that you feel is immoral or wrong but your method is immoral/wrong in itself, by trying to accuse someone of things that aren't true.

You have been brought up to speed regarding facts which you thought were different (community, and not unilateral, decisions on things like coin supply, community veto on fixing the instamine distribution, price of the coin and market trend regarding the "P&D" accusation, etc etc) - not that these matter, as they have nothing to do with ripping people off.

You have been shown your irrationality in trying to use a false narrative/accusation because you perceive you are doing the moral thing by opposing what you feel is immoral.

If you want to insist, you can. But then you have no moral high ground. You are, at that point, automatically immoral because you continue to falsely accuse someone else, of stealing people's money - when you know that such a thing hasn't happened, and you also know the reasons of your confusion and what you *really* object to, which isn't relevant to the topic at hand. It is however relevant to the parallel thread you are pasting this content.