The only way for someone to get out of debt is to put someone else in even more debt.
nonsense. I don't have anything against bitcoins per se. They can be, and probably will be, a form of money. That doesn't mean that banks won't lend you money or that interest will go away or fractional reserves won't work. These games will be our undoing and are separate problems we'll have to deal with. Personally, I chose to remain debt free at all times, can't stand interest, or bankers for that matter, and I don't want to get caught in that evil downward spiral. I don't owe anyone jack sh*t and love it that way. Just to be clear, nobody is saying that debt is always good, nobody is defending the present monetary system, comparing the present levels of debt and specially the way it comes about to slavery is quite accurate. Nobody is disagreeing with you there. I personally try to stay away from debt as much as I can as well. The problem is that some justifications you are giving are objectively wrong, false. That is what the people here is trying to point out. |
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Is it evil to rent a house?
Is it evil to rent a car?
...
Is it evil to rent a sum of money?
Is it evil to rent a sum of money? In my opinion, absolutely! Because interest to be paid on your loan, in simplistic terms, doesn't exist. You must pay back the original principal + interest. The interest portion doesn't exist and cannot be created out of thin air. We, and the world, is in so much debt due to interest we can never pay back. We should learn from history and not repeat the same mistakes. Unfortunately, history always repeats itself and we'll also screw ourselves with bitcoins too. Sigh. This is false, as several people have noted before in this post. Re-read the answers. |
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What it is true is that under a deflationary system there is less incentive to go into debt so usually there is less debt in a deflationay system that under a inflationary system. Inflation promotes debt. But there are other factors that influence as well.
How do you figure? In an inflationary system, interest rates are higher. Usually real interest rates are lower under inflationary system becuase usually the newly printed money comes in through loans. Because banks have more money to loan real interest rates are lower, at least for a while (during the bubble phase, when the bubble pahse is over interest rates skyrocket). While it could seem that more loans is better, its the contrary. Inflation stops growth because it creates malinvestments. |
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I loan you $8, you owe me $10 with interest, you buy a bucket from me for $6, you wash my car, I give you $5, you pay me back $5. Later you wash my car again and I pay you $5, you pay me $5 and the debt is gone. You can have unlimited debt on any amount of base money. There never needed to be more than $8 in this 'economy' Thank you, I was too lazy to write down the whole example. What it is true is that under a deflationary system there is less incentive to go into debt so usually there is less debt in a deflationay system that under a inflationary system. Inflation promotes debt. But there are other factors that influence as well. |
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I did not see the option of paying with bitcoins.
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Yes, there can be interest in bitcoins, and there will be interest in bitcoins.
No, interest are not bad.
No, you dont need inflation to pay for the interest. As an example, you can pay a loan of 1000 bitcoins with a money supply of 600 bitcoins. Money circulates.
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The question is when. And if it can meet the expectations. I will laugh pretty hard if they end up spending 2 million dollars for 40GH/s or so  The thing is that even if they create a device that generates 100 MH/s for $600 but consumes lets say 25W, its going to outprice the GPU's anyway, because long time the investment will be worth it and the GPU wont be able to stay profitable at 100Mh/s at 25W. Thats a MH/J of 4, and the most efficient GPU's can only do slightly above 2. As people buy more and more of this ASIC's the difficulty go up and at some point the gpu's will generate bitcoins at a rate that wont pay for the electricity they consume. I dont think the thread for the GPU's is pure hashing power. The problem will be power consumption efficiency. |
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No, it wont happen. The political system would loose legitimacy in the eye of a lot of people, and they need all the fools believing in "the best interest of the nation", the "greater good" and "I do it for your well being" to stay in power.
This is why de-centrallization is so important. They can easily streak down one central point, but they really can not go against everybody.
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i read a few lines on the page you linked to but that was about it. it seems like a waste of time.
i never quite understood reddit and therefore never use the website. i am not the cool i suppose.
i guess it is comparable to another website i never use by the name of 4chan?
you might as well attempt to herd cats then to use that website to have a discussion.
The only thing cool about reddit are the subreddits. The more mainstream subreddit are just a bunch of kids trying too hard to appear cool on the Internet. |
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Getting back on topic, I can't see banks that do nothing but take in bitcoins and loan than out again being viable. How do you secure a loan denominated in bitcoins? If I loan them out and the value doubles or triples the borrowers would probably never be able to pay the loan back. It seems like it could possibly work if you were only lending capital to fund bitcoin businesses who would thrive if the value jumped, but I can't see how it would really work.
Yes, its not really viable at this point. But in the future it will probably happen (Im pretty sure it will happen). |
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It usually doesn't go down, but only up. Did a bunch of the miners decide to give up because the BTC price has stabilized? Or do the miners think the price will drop soon?
Probably the difficulty rise outpriced a bunch of miners. |
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I'm no miner, but outside of arbitrage opportunities my start-to-sell price is 49.99
Ill sell for 49.98. |
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*shrug*
I doubt it would work in an anonymous setting. Banking depends on trust.
I'm assuming the "men with guns" means the government. Societies find all sorts of interesting solutions for contract enforcement, and settling peacefully is usually cheaper than going to war. If you trust the bank enough you could have an anonymous account just controlled by a private key. IF you trust the bank enough (big IF, but there are some examples in reality). So we would all need to accept "their books" as legal tender Stop trolling. That you engage in some contract with the bank does not mean their notes become legal tender. IT just mean that you accept them, not everyone else. Legal tender means that the bank notes are forced upon everybody. |
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hm... yeah. so it's all relative? I dont know if all is relative, but certainly value is relative. |
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I'd say RMB (yuan) is purely backed by bullets, the communist party doesn't even try to hide it. Chairman Mao: Government is made of barrels of guns
The backing of USD at least contains some element of (false) promise of America dreams, Hollywood style deception, and the illusion of democracy, besides missiles and aircraft carriers. Propaganda plays a big part in both countries. A lot of chinese think that the dictartorship is great. Even during medieval times, intelectuals and peasants said that the monarchy was great. Propaganda USA style is not the only type of propaganada. And while propaganda plays a role in keeping the people using fiat currencies, the final argument is always the bullet that is backing fiat currencies. Without them, a lot of people would stop using them and there would be a cascade effect. |
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what about TIME as absolute value? we never have enough of it, and please don't get einsteinian on me with speed'n'stuff How is time valuable outside of some human deciding its valuable? |
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that the recent jump in price is not due (primarily) to an increase in hoarding, speculation, or hype, but rather to a simple jump in users.
I fail to see the difference between a bitcoin user and a bitcoin speculator. what are all these new users using bitcoin for? There is no difference at all betwen an speculator and a user. Its just that some people like to judge the motivations of other people in the market. What they deem its good are labeled as users and what they deem is bad are labeled as speculators. And because everybody judges in a different way, you have all type of cracy clasifications. Its a useless distinction. Everybody is a user, just with different motivations. |
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I don't approve with "100% anonymous" in your digital cash system.
If someone want to be anonymous, he will just use bitcoin on a Tor.
Your system is about fast, cheap and reliable. Being reliable means you have to cooperate with GOV. Yes, maybe some of the bitcoiner don't like GOV, but lots of the users are just buying coffee and T-shirt with bitcoin, they don't mind that much to be under regulated by GOV, as we always are in our daily life. we just want a kind of currency that won't be inflationary as much as GOV want.
And if you're not cooperative with GOV, most of the business in the real world are not dare to accept your payment service, which would bring a lot of potential legal risk to them.
So keep the track record and identity information of your client, keep it highly confidential. If the GOV want it and have the permission from the court, hand it to them. Yes, You will lose some highly private guys, but you will be welcomed by much larger group of people.
The business that have handed the info to the government have usually lost a lot of their client base or at least their gorwth. That people you are labeling as a minority, reality shows they are a majority. |
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