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101  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 03, 2016, 06:40:26 AM
Bitcoin has been designed to work fine without incoming connections.  A non-upgraded node can make outgoing connections to anyone.  All nodes.  Upgraded or not.  Upgraded nodes will accept incoming connections from anyone.  Upgraded or not.  The only change he is suggesting, is to make sure upgraded nodes only make outgoing connections to other upgrading nodes.  My own node currently has 8 outgoing and 104 incoming connections.  Even if my node is upgraded, and all my outgoing connections are to segwit nodes, there is nothing whatsoever stopping non-upgraded nodes to connect to my node, and nothing is splitting the network in any way imaginable.
How does a peer to peer network work if all nodes only make outgoing connections? How does that work exactly?
That wouldn't work, of course.  Another reason not to worry.  Unfortunately many nodes are behind NAT and/or restrictive firewalls, and cannot accept incoming connections.  Nodes which are on a public IP, and accept incoming connections, often have a hundred or more.
102  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 02, 2016, 09:59:04 PM
1) You mention of the last 8 blocks, one is near full with 1.8 kb left. You suggest this could allow 9 more transactions? So theoretically, you are saying, if the usage of bitcoin had increased, and 10 more people, tried to send a transaction during this time period, the block would have been full and those transactions would not have been included? Is this accurate? Since very few people use bitcoin, it seems self-evident, that if adoption increases, the likelihood of full blocks increase. Is this correct?
No, not even close.   If you have been using bitcoin for more than a day, you should know there are two concepts called "fee" and "priority".  If ten more people had sent transactions at the same time, and they included a fee at all, or the input utxos had any confirmations at all, the transactions would be included.  I send many of my transactions with a very low or zero fee to mark them as low priority, can wait if the block is full.  They almost never have to wait.

2) You then mention there are dust transactions, outputs which cost more in fees to spend, than the value of the output. If I'm sending a bitcoin from A to B, would this be considered a dust transaction?
You obviously don't know what dust is, and I doubt you know how transactions are constructed.

A transaction has inputs and outputs.  Each input is a reference to an earlier transaction output by txid and number of an outoput in the given txid.  When an input is spent, the entire input is spent.  When all outputs from a txid have been spent, the txid can be pruned from the utxo set (which is good).

A dust output is an output of just a few satoshis.  So small that including it in a transaction would increase the necessary fee for the transaction more than the value of the input.  I.e. it will never be possible to spend economically, and litter the utxo space forever.  No matter how many such inputs you have, the combined value of them is negative.  Those utxos are called dust.  We don't want transactions containing dust outputs, because those will litter the utxo set, which is kept in memory on all nodes, forever.  

Was that clear?  Faster increasing UTXO set is Gavin's main argument against a block size increase, btw.  Dust is the worst, since it is economically unspendable, and will stay there forever.

There isn't much included, correct? Assuming this is the case, since I'm moving a fair amount of money, wouldn't it be safe to say that I would want to ensure that this transaction takes places and increase the fee? Forgive my ignorance with this regard. Or would it only be spam if I was for example sending .00099 btc and I had a fee of .001 btc to ensure that the transaction was hopefully included in a recent block? Perhaps a better exampled would be, me needing to send btc to my brother in Germany. I want to make sure he gets it, that the transaction is included, so say I send .05 with a fee of .05 or a permutation of that with .049 and .05 or .05 and .049.
0.00099 is far above the dust threshold.  It is 513 satoshis or thereabouts.  The monetary value, even assuming 0 txfee, is much less than one cent.

3) How would this(the above mentioned) be considered abuse? In either of the above mentioned transactions I need to get him ~$20USD for whatever reason I have. This seems like legitimate usage, no? How is the determination made whether usage is an abuse or not?                    
I have no idea why anyone would consider what you explain there abuse.
103  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 02, 2016, 08:41:09 PM
WTF?  But why?  Finally there is RBF and all the other improvements in 0.12, which are important to users, merchants and exchanges, and Oliver Janssen decides to not support it? Again: WTF is Classic about?  I thought is was a fork to 2 MB block size, not a retardation.

They are clearly just spooking.  Noone in their right mind will run it.  When 90% of nodes use RBF, and 0.12 doesn't even inform about RBF transactions, it would be outright dangerous to use.  I can send a 0-fee transaction to a "Classic" user, insist on getting my money now, and then RBF it.  Even easier than it is now.  With RBF support, I can instead ask the sender to replace it by a non-RBF transaction paying a fee.

I intend to use RBF a lot myself.  I exchange bitcoins all the time, and as long as I have an unconfirmed transaction in the queue, I can just replace it and add outputs as I sell more.  Saving transactions on the blockchain, ensuring faster confirmations for my customers, and not having to use unconfirmed inputs.

And the speed improvements important for IBD?  Why don't they want them?  Or the data limits, etc?  All of those must be essential for a large block fork.
Because Core hasn't paid enough attention to solving the block size problem. We shouldn't be where we are now.

Or because it's all a big evil conspiracy. Take your pick.
Blaming Core doesn't make sense.  They already implemented those features in 0.12!  I personally think the problem is incompetence.  The forks lack competent programmers, and don't know how to merge the fork they made with current Bitcoin.  They made something they think may work on top of some old version, and don't dare to touch it.

The block size is currently not a problem, and won't be for a while yet.  Hard forks will be, especially if the forks keep pretending to be Bitcoin.

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Aqually it should be doable by a lot less than 25%, since you can generate every block a 10 minute to validate block, and it will be very hard for the rest to catch up.  If the fork happens, Bitcoin will already be destroyed, so the investment is already lost.  The only cost is power.
So if Bitcoin is already destroyed someone will stay behind to savage the corpse? I am speechless...
Of course.  Can you think of a better use for the equipment?

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Of course it does. I agree that there needs to be more focus on efficiency, but my view (and that of quite a few others as well) is that we can't let the cow starve while the grass is growing. And this seems to be the main point of contention.
Letting the cow die in a civil war isn't much better.
... the civil war which was started in order to save the cow from starving?
The cow isn't starving.  The blocks aren't full, except during spam attacks which would have filled blocks of any size.  Not even then, since most miners don't produce full blocks under any circumstance.  Normally, e.g. now, it is far between full blocks.  Some miners are quite good at filtering the spam, and confirm even 0-fee transactions in the first block they make even during the worst spam storms.  Doubling the size of the what field won't help a bit, when you don't do sh*t about the real problem.  Swarm of grasshoppers and birds eating everyting they get.
Are we going to have an equally fruitful debate about the word "full" as we had about "released"?

Scroll around and look at the recent blocks:

https://tradeblock.com/bitcoin/

https://blockchain.info/

There's not a lot of room for growth.

By the way, nice metaphor for adoption: "Swarm of grasshoppers and birds eating everyting they get."
Adoption?  It that what you call transaction spam?  Do you think 2 MB blocks will reduce the spam in any way?  The blocks will be just as full.

I just had a look.  Of the last 8 blocks, only one is close to full.  1.8 kB left in that one, which should allow for about 9 more non-segwit transactions.  The rest have plenty room.  The blocks which are completely full usually contain a lot of dust transactions, i.e. outputs which cost more in fees tp spend than the value of the output, which won't get mined using a default configurations.  Some miners happily prefer those transactions as long as they pay more in fees.  This is abuse, imho.

Here is a nice infographic which explains why segwit is a much better idea than some panic fork blocksize war.
104  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 02, 2016, 04:05:41 PM
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I hope they are going to upgrade to 0.12 before they release.  0.12 has lots of improvements, e.g. much faster IBD, data usage limiting, the long awaited RBF feature, etc.  It will be hard to convince people to downgrade.
The first version will be 0.11.2 with a 2MB block size. It may very well be the final version if Core decides to wise up.
Doesn't seem to be a serious attempt then.  Are the Toomins too incompetent to merge the improvements from 0.12?
The choice of 0.11.2 was a conscious decision in order to make it perfectly clear what this release of Classic is about.
WTF?  But why?  Finally there is RBF and all the other improvements in 0.12, which are important to users, merchants and exchanges, and Oliver Janssen decides to not support it? Again: WTF is Classic about?  I thought is was a fork to 2 MB block size, not a retardation.

They are clearly just spooking.  Noone in their right mind will run it.  When 90% of nodes use RBF, and 0.12 doesn't even inform about RBF transactions, it would be outright dangerous to use.  I can send a 0-fee transaction to a "Classic" user, insist on getting my money now, and then RBF it.  Even easier than it is now.  With RBF support, I can instead ask the sender to replace it by a non-RBF transaction paying a fee.

I intend to use RBF a lot myself.  I exchange bitcoins all the time, and as long as I have an unconfirmed transaction in the queue, I can just replace it and add outputs as I sell more.  Saving transactions on the blockchain, ensuring faster confirmations for my customers, and not having to use unconfirmed inputs.

And the speed improvements important for IBD?  Why don't they want them?  Or the data limits, etc?  All of those must be essential for a large block fork.

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I wonder how long it takes until a miner do a 51% attack on "Classic" using only 25% of the hashrate (after already scaling off a lot of the competition due to the fork) using the 10 minute block trick.  With 2 MB blocks, you can design a transaction which takes 10 minutes to validate.  In the mean time the malicious miner has a 10 minute head start on the next block.  Victory!  "Classic" hasn't been given much thought.  In the mean time Bitcoin solves the O(n˛) problem in segwit, allowing for large transactions which don't take forever to validate.  (XT had a "solution" to this problem, by limiting transactions to 100 kB, a limit which would require another hard fork to remove in the future.  Where the other developers look for elegant, efficient and flexible solutions, Gavin prefers using a mallet.  (In his own words.))
With regards to the attack: you're working with probabilities, so at best you'll have a more efficient way of carrying out a 51% attack with roughly 51% of the hashing power. But let's forget that and assume this is a way of confidently launching a 51% attack with 25% of the hashing power. That hashing power still costs 200 million USD. There are much cheaper ways to destroy Bitcoin.
Aqually it should be doable by a lot less than 25%, since you can generate every block a 10 minute to validate block, and it will be very hard for the rest to catch up.  If the fork happens, Bitcoin will already be destroyed, so the investment is already lost.  The only cost is power.

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Segwit has the potential to get us much further, and scale dynamically.  Just increasing the blocksize doesn't scale at all.
Of course it does. I agree that there needs to be more focus on efficiency, but my view (and that of quite a few others as well) is that we can't let the cow starve while the grass is growing. And this seems to be the main point of contention.
Letting the cow die in a civil war isn't much better.
... the civil war which was started in order to save the cow from starving?
The cow isn't starving.  The blocks aren't full, except during spam attacks which would have filled blocks of any size.  Not even then, since most miners don't produce full blocks under any circumstance.  Normally, e.g. now, it is far between full blocks.  Some miners are quite good at filtering the spam, and confirm even 0-fee transactions in the first block they make even during the worst spam storms.  Doubling the size of the corn field won't help a bit, when you don't do sh*t about the real problem.  Swarm of grasshoppers and birds eating everyting they get.
105  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 02, 2016, 03:29:27 PM
Yes, they are.   SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY is a standard script operation which has existed since the beginning.  They are an important part of many types of smart contracts and colored coins.  You are totaly confused.  Have you been taking the Reddit pill or something?
You have deliberately avoided the point I made - these 'appear' to be anyonecanpay, but they are not. The substantive feature of the tx lies in the segreagated winess data, which non-upgrading nodes will not have access to. Instead of making the change explicit by way of HF, you make it underhand in such a way that nodes, through no fault of their own, can no longer process certain tx's. Just because they are not aware of it, does not make it any more palatable.
Again: Non-upgraded nodes don't need to process any more information in those transactions than what will be available to them.  They need to know the complete UTXO set, and if transactions to themselves are valid or not.  And they will know that.

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I emphasized two important words you didn't read.  An old node can still connect to peers, but will not receive incoming connections from [SW] nodes.  It will receive incoming connections from old nodes, however.  New nodes will only make outgoing connections to segwit nodes, to make sure they can sync with segwit data.

A node will only make 8 outgoing connections.  If most of them are to non-segwit nodes, it will be much harder to get the segwit data.  Peter Todd suggest a solution to this potential problem.
Dont play silly games.. And dont presume what I read or didnt read into it. Since when does an outgoing connection from one peer not equal an incoming connection to another?  How does your statement above say anything different to mine - this is effectively splitting the network in two.
Bitcoin has been designed to work fine without incoming connections.  A non-upgraded node can make outgoing connections to anyone.  All nodes.  Upgraded or not.  Upgraded nodes will accept incoming connections from anyone.  Upgraded or not.  The only change he is suggesting, is to make sure upgraded nodes only make outgoing connections to other upgrading nodes.  My own node currently has 8 outgoing and 104 incoming connections.  Even if my node is upgraded, and all my outgoing connections are to segwit nodes, there is nothing whatsoever stopping non-upgraded nodes to connect to my node, and nothing is splitting the network in any way imaginable.

You are presenting Peter Todds solution to the problem as the problem, which is beyond my imagination that anyone could think of, but that's Reddit..

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users to switch to a different software maintained by two incompetent brothers and a dictator.

You know, you could have just said this at the start and saved me the time of trying to argue with a tin-hat conspiracy-theorist.  Looking back at your efforts to respond (apart from quoting verbatim from /r/bitcoin reddit posts) I can see that you are more adept at turning your points  into ad-homs than saying anything substantial.
So how do you explain how they have failed to keep up with the latest improvements in Bitcoin Core, or address obvious bugs in their code, and Oliver Janssen closing a pull request without accepting any discussion about it?
106  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 02, 2016, 01:18:59 PM
Of course they are.  They are standard bitcoin transactions, and there are many of them in the blockchain.  They do exactly the same as standard P2PKH transactions, just that the output is spendable by anyone.  There are many of them in the blockchain already.
Except they are not.
Yes, they are.   SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY is a standard script operation which has existed since the beginning.  They are an important part of many types of smart contracts and colored coins.  You are totaly confused.  Have you been taking the Reddit pill or something?

Its a different transaction, that does something differently when interpreted by a particular version of the code. It has extension data (segregated witnesses in an unvalidated block extension) that the client knows nothing about.
The client doesn't have to know anything about it.  If it hasn't produced any P2WSH or P2WPKH addresses, it won't receive any payments using segregated witness.  It can validate everything it needs to the way it always did.

Add to that the explicit intent for HAVEWITNESS nodes to disconnect from non upgraded peers - effectively forking them off the network. Why - if as you suggest they are handling 'valid' data?

Code:
On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 01:51:24PM -0500, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> While Pieter Wuille's segwit branch(1) doesn't yet implement a fix for
> the above problem, the obvious thing to do is to add a new service bit
> such as NODE_SEGWIT, and/or bump the protocol version, and for *outgoing*
> *peers* only connect to peers with segwit support.
I emphasized two important words you didn't read.  An old node can still connect to peers, but will not receive incoming connections from new nodes.  It will receive incoming connections from old nodes, however.  New nodes will only make outgoing connections to segwit nodes, to make sure they can sync with segwit data.

A node will only make 8 outgoing connections.  If most of them are to non-segwit nodes, it will be much harder to get the segwit data.  Peter Todd suggest a solution to this potential problem.

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Peter Todd has not discredited the plan as fraud. 
I didnt say that - you conflated 2 different statements.  Peter discredited the notion that SW could be a safe soft fork as it stands.
He also suggested a way to make it safe.  You quoted form the solution, but didn't understand it.

The idea of it being a fraud is my own - a fraud from the perspective that it it being spun as a harmless soft-fork to users, when it is anything but. The fraud that you spin a HF as this evil, to-be-avoided-at-all-costs event, when in fact it is the more straight forward solution, involving infinitely less risk than a rushed segwit deployment. I mean, just look at the mailing list the last few days. There are still huge issues with how it is to be deployed - there are still more questions than answers at this stage.
Please list the remaining issues, and explain why the issues are more difficult to solve than getting all bitcoin users to switch to a different software maintained by two incompetent brothers and a dictator.
107  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 02, 2016, 12:52:38 PM
So what?  Bitcoin Core is in beta as well.  People still run it.

Ok... try to stay with me: The files the devs expect most people to download are not released yet. Thus it is premature to conclude that Bitcoin Classic is a failure based on node count.

Can you at least agree to that?
I have no idea what the devs expect, but based on the steady decline of altcoin nodes on the p2p network, I doubt the release of binaries will have much effect on anything.  There are plenty other altcoin nodes to run, which have the binaries ready for download.

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I hope they are going to upgrade to 0.12 before they release.  0.12 has lots of improvements, e.g. much faster IBD, data usage limiting, the long awaited RBF feature, etc.  It will be hard to convince people to downgrade.
The first version will be 0.11.2 with a 2MB block size. It may very well be the final version if Core decides to wise up.
Doesn't seem to be a serious attempt then.  Are the Toomins too incompetent to merge the improvements from 0.12?

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I do make it very clear that I sell Bitcoin and no altcoins.  I always did.  I link to bitcoin.org in my FAQ.
I'm sure there'll be plenty of time to argue semantics when you're in front of the judge if a fork should happen. It's not obvious that everyone will agree with your terminology.
Don't be silly.  Altcoin is the generic term for Bitcoin forks.  It been since the first Bitcoin forks/altcoins started to show up years ago, using alternative consensus rules.  It can easily be shown in court.
You might be surprised. You may very well be right in some way, but if all the exchanges, businesses, miners and the rest of the community runs Classic and they call it Bitcoin, the courts may agree with them. This is not complicated stuff.
I am a miner as well, and I am not going to start mining any altcoins.  I doubt you will get many miners to switch.  For a given hashrate the miners will produce exactly as much as before the fork, until the first difficulty adjustment.  No matter which fork you are on.  After that your return will increase a lot.

If everyone switches, including me, consensus have changed.  So far nothing indicates that the altcoins have more than a meager support among users, merchants, exchanges and miners.  There was a pull request on requiring 90% miner support for hardfork activation in "Classic", by request of some Chinese miners, but the dictator of the project, Oliver Janssen, closed it.  He is only aiming for the destruction and control of Bitcoin, and has no regards for the wishes of the miners, users, merchants or exchanges, or sanity.

I wonder how long it takes until a miner do a 51% attack on "Classic" using only 25% of the hashrate (after already scaling off a lot of the competition due to the fork) using the 10 minute block trick.  With 2 MB blocks, you can design a transaction which takes 10 minutes to validate.  In the mean time the malicious miner has a 10 minute head start on the next block.  Victory!  "Classic" hasn't been given much thought.  In the mean time Bitcoin solves the O(n˛) problem in segwit, allowing for large transactions which don't take forever to validate.  (XT had a "solution" to this problem, by limiting transactions to 100 kB, a limit which would require another hard fork to remove in the future.  Where the other developers look for elegant, efficient and flexible solutions, Gavin prefers using a mallet.  (In his own words.))
 
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I hope Core replies with a 2MB/Segwit hard fork. It seems like a clever piece of technology. But I wasn't talking about Segwit. Segwit will only get us so far.
Segwit has the potential to get us much further, and scale dynamically.  Just increasing the blocksize doesn't scale at all.
Of course it does. I agree that there needs to be more focus on efficiency, but my view (and that of quite a few others as well) is that we can't let the cow starve while the grass is growing. And this seems to be the main point of contention.
Letting the cow die in a civil war isn't much better.
108  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Why soft fork is a very bad idea and should be avoided at all costs on: February 02, 2016, 09:53:58 AM
So what i ask myself, when the old nodes only see empty blocks, aren't the transactions needed to calculate if the block hash is correct? If the transactions are not seeable then how can the hash be calculated as valid? As far as i remember, changing the transactions of a block will give you another seed part that is used as base to find the block hash.
In old nodes' view, it is just an empty block with a coinbase transaction, nothing special,  like those blocks generated by SPV mining. So the hash function will return OK signal.
Wrong.  All transactions are recorded in the block.  Only the signatures are moved.
Do you speak about the time that will be used by segwit to reach 95%?
Always, even after segwit has been deployed.  Only the witness is segregated, as the name implies. 

The only thing an old node cannot do after activation, is verify if a transaction to a segwit address is valid or not, as it will always seem valid to an old node.  Fortunately this is of no consequence, since old nodes will never generate that kind of addresses or receive segwit transactions, and the risk of an old node generating a block with an invalid transaction is very small since more than 95% of the hashrate follow the new rules.  A longer chainfork is very unlikely, but as with all soft forks merchants should of course upgrade.  Old nodes can send to segwit addresses, but not spend coins sent to segwit addresses.  Read the BIP.

You are right. If Segwit nodes only have 10% of hash power, then when they publish their block, the block will be accepted by core nodes, and core nodes see nothing in it. But in Segwit nodes' view, that block contains a transaction that spent Alice's coins. Core nodes does not see this transaction, thus they believe Alice's coins are still there, but in Segwit nodes' view, it is already spent

As a result, later when core nodes trying to spend those Alice's coins, that block will be accepted by Core nodes but not Segwit nodes, so a fork will happen. The fork happens because Segwit nodes does not have enough hash power to prevent core nodes to publish Alice's transaction. If Segwit nodes commands more than 60% of hash power, then core mining nodes will never be able to spend Alice's coins, because all their blocks are orphaned. And there will never be a fork
Wrong.  An old and a new node will have the coins at exactly the same places.  The UTXO set will be identitcal.
Then were comes the less datausage from? The signatures are not needed to verify the tx?
Why do you think segwit has less datausage?  It doesn't.  When it has been deployed, segwit transactions (i.e. only transactions to the new address types associated with segwit) will have their witnesses recorded in a parallel block of witness data.  The total capacity of the two blocks is 4 MB.  This can be extended by various mechanisms in a later soft fork, or more likely by using sidechains and payment channels.  The latter mechanisms are IMHO better, since they scale better and don't increase the cost of running a full node.
109  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 02, 2016, 08:49:10 AM
This proposal is actually worth quoting in full before its get deleted or changed. If one takes the claim that this proposal was discussed at length in Mircea Popescu's group, then the conclusion is that his group doesn't have even a single student of cryptology, not to mention an amateur or professional cryptologist.
If you are afraid of that getting deleted, you can still read gmawell's very similar proposal from 2012 here.
110  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 02, 2016, 08:43:13 AM
Huh?  The bitcoin blocks are still valid bitcoin blocks when segwit is deployed.  Transactions with a segregated witness will have the signature in a separate chain, but this does not change the validity of the block. The blocks and the transactions in the blocks are perfectly valid to all nodes.

This is completely wrong. The segregated tx's are absolutely invalid to present nodes. A nasty hack to make them appear as "I dont know what to do with this, so I will assume its valid" does not mean a tx is valid. They will remain UNVALIDATED by nodes that are not upgraded.
No, it is correct.  Transactions with a segregated witness will be completely valid to present nodes.  They will look like a normal "anyonecanpay" transaction.  
Are they "anyonecanpay" transactions?  Yes or No? Of course they are not.
Of course they are.  They are standard bitcoin transactions, and there are many of them in the blockchain.  They do exactly the same as standard P2PKH transactions, just that the output is spendable by anyone.  There are many of them in the blockchain already.

If they are not, then how can you say "they have been validated"?  The transaction has been misrepresented, it is something completely different to what the node thinks it is, yet you maintain that as correct.   Nodes will essentially be SPV clients with respect to segwit transactions. That is the fraud of this so-called "soft-fork" plan. Which, of course, has already been discredited by Peter Todd.
First of all; segwit, like all soft forks, will only be activated when 95% of the hashrate support it.  Peter Todd has not discredited the plan as fraud.  Exploiting this requires roughly the same hashrate as a 51% attack, and will only apply to segwit transactions.  Someone who invest that much will probably go for the entire cake.  After segwit has been deployed, SPV clients will be much safer to use due to the fraud proof.
111  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 02, 2016, 08:29:20 AM
When the source code is out, it is released.  You don't need binaries for that.
This is getting beyond stupid. But I used to respect you so I'll play along.

The entire quote:

"#Bitcoin Classic tree tagged for the first beta ("classic-0.11.2.b1")
Source code is out there. Binaries/release soon."


Most people will wait until the final binaries are released.
So what?  Bitcoin Core is in beta as well.  People still run it.

I hope they are going to upgrade to 0.12 before they release.  0.12 has lots of improvements, e.g. much faster IBD, data usage limiting, the long awaited RBF feature, etc.  It will be hard to convince people to downgrade.

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Except the people on this issue are mostly unnamed shills, not named identifiable people.
Ok, now we're back to the "quality" of the backers. Then show me the heavy hitters!
I already showed Localbitcoins.  Perhaps the exchange with the most users in the world.

My points are: Most people don't sign petitions unless they want change.  And a petition which is supposed to be taken seriously better contain names.

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Standard bitcoin is well defined in Satoshi's paper.  Diversion from consensus is not allowed.  Only bugfixes and more restrictions have been allowed, and Satoshi did many of those himself.
"They vote with their CPU power, expressing their acceptance of
valid blocks by working on extending them and rejecting invalid blocks by refusing to work on
them. Any needed rules and incentives can be enforced with this consensus mechanism."


I am glad we agree.
You are quoting the wrong paragraph.

Bitcoin Classic hasn't been released yet.
By the measure you are using, Bitcoin Core hasn't been released yet.  It is in beta.

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I do make it very clear that I sell Bitcoin and no altcoins.  I always did.  I link to bitcoin.org in my FAQ.
I'm sure there'll be plenty of time to argue semantics when you're in front of the judge if a fork should happen. It's not obvious that everyone will agree with your terminology.
Don't be silly.  Altcoin is the generic term for Bitcoin forks.  It been since the first Bitcoin forks/altcoins started to show up years ago, using alternative consensus rules.  It can easily be shown in court.

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When Core is done with their roadmap, the SPV problem will at least be solved by the fraud proofs included in the segwit proposal.  This makes the world a bit safer for SPV wallets.  Segwit has a testnet, and works, btw.  Many wallets have it implemented already.  You are welcome to test it.  Join #segwit-dev on Freenode to discuss.
I hope Core replies with a 2MB/Segwit hard fork. It seems like a clever piece of technology. But I wasn't talking about Segwit. Segwit will only get us so far.
Segwit has the potential to get us much further, and scale dynamically.  Just increasing the blocksize doesn't scale at all.
112  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Why soft fork is a very bad idea and should be avoided at all costs on: February 02, 2016, 08:06:12 AM
Can anyone explain the major difference between a soft fork and a hard fork? And why is everyone afraid of soft fork?
There have been many soft forks so far, and it is nothing to be afraid of.  There was an issue with one of them due to a malicious miner who ended up loosing 175 BTC.  A merchant running an ancient version of bitcoin accepted the bad chain and lost on a double spend, but that's the only issue I can remember. 

Hard forks is a completely different matter.  Hard forks don't resolve themselves until 100% of all nodes have upgraded.  Until then Bitcoin will be unsafe to use, and people will lose money.  Even worse is the forking planned by some by releasing various altcoins and try to overtake a majority of the bitcoin hashpower.  In that case even upgrading to the latest version won't resolve the problems.
113  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Why soft fork is a very bad idea and should be avoided at all costs on: February 02, 2016, 07:58:19 AM
So what i ask myself, when the old nodes only see empty blocks, aren't the transactions needed to calculate if the block hash is correct? If the transactions are not seeable then how can the hash be calculated as valid? As far as i remember, changing the transactions of a block will give you another seed part that is used as base to find the block hash.
In old nodes' view, it is just an empty block with a coinbase transaction, nothing special,  like those blocks generated by SPV mining. So the hash function will return OK signal.
Wrong.  All transactions are recorded in the block.  Only the signatures are moved.

You are right. If Segwit nodes only have 10% of hash power, then when they publish their block, the block will be accepted by core nodes, and core nodes see nothing in it. But in Segwit nodes' view, that block contains a transaction that spent Alice's coins. Core nodes does not see this transaction, thus they believe Alice's coins are still there, but in Segwit nodes' view, it is already spent

As a result, later when core nodes trying to spend those Alice's coins, that block will be accepted by Core nodes but not Segwit nodes, so a fork will happen. The fork happens because Segwit nodes does not have enough hash power to prevent core nodes to publish Alice's transaction. If Segwit nodes commands more than 60% of hash power, then core mining nodes will never be able to spend Alice's coins, because all their blocks are orphaned. And there will never be a fork
Wrong.  An old and a new node will have the coins at exactly the same places.  The UTXO set will be identitcal.

(Correction: Before the fork condition is reached, e.g. 75% hash power supporting segwit, segwit nodes will not generate and accept new transaction format, so the system is still safe. And after the fork, the attacker need more than 25% of hash power from segwit nodes to push in such an invalid block, since the other 25% of old nodes' hash power will assist to write the block into the chain)
Segwit will not be activated until 95% of all hashpower support it, like with all soft forks.

Please educate yourself about segwit and bitcoin in general.  Have you been on Reddit or something?
114  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 01, 2016, 10:32:17 PM
Huh?  The bitcoin blocks are still valid bitcoin blocks when segwit is deployed.  Transactions with a segregated witness will have the signature in a separate chain, but this does not change the validity of the block. The blocks and the transactions in the blocks are perfectly valid to all nodes.

This is completely wrong. The segregated tx's are absolutely invalid to present nodes. A nasty hack to make them appear as "I dont know what to do with this, so I will assume its valid" does not mean a tx is valid. They will remain UNVALIDATED by nodes that are not upgraded.
No, it is correct.  Transactions with a segregated witness will be completely valid to present nodes.  They will look like a normal "anyonecanpay" transaction.  Non-upgraded nodes will not generate special segwit addresses, and therefore will not receive transactions to segwit addresses.  They are just transactions to other people which you don't have the private key to.  You can't import those addresses to an old wallet either.  But transactions to segwit addresses will still be recorded by old nodes, and included in their UTXO set.

Very old nodes cannot fully validate all constraints in any recent block, because they don't know about them.  This has always been the case.  Still the blocks are perfectly valid to all nodes.  In case of a hard forking change, the new blocks will not be valid to older nodes.  Segregated witness is not a hard forking change.

Try it out yourself.  The testnet is open.
115  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 01, 2016, 10:15:44 PM
Bitcoin Classic hasn't been released yet.
According to "ShadowOfHarbinger" it was released days ago, but he is full of crap and might be lying.

You mean the statement he linked to: "Source code is out there. Binaries/release soon." ?

I'm not sure what to say. Looks pretty unambiguous to me.
When the source code is out, it is released.  You don't need binaries for that.

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hmmpfff..... not really the point, but:

https://github.com/bitcoinclassic/website/issues/3

Look! They have 288, Core has 136!

That was useful.
Except the people on this issue are mostly unnamed shills, not named identifiable people.

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Few big players have voiced support for Core. At least I couldn't find many, maybe you see something I can't see (sry, there's bitmynt). Exchanges like Huobi, Bitfinex and Kraken are probably waiting to see which side of the net the ball lands.
Or they just don't care about the drama, and will stick with standard bitcoin.
Whatever standard bitcoin will be.
Standard bitcoin is well defined in Satoshi's paper.  Diversion from consensus is not allowed.  Only bugfixes and more restrictions have been allowed, and Satoshi did many of those himself.

Bitcoin Classic hasn't been released yet.
The source has been released, and this means the software has been released.  Don't fool yourself.

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If a majority of miners do it, they will do it again just for the fun of it.  The coins will be worthless anyway.
You can't be serious? If that's not a joke it's the worst "slippery slope" argument I've ever heard.
I have tried to get an answer to what I think is the biggest problem here many times, but you keep ignoring it:
SPV wallets, which most people use, will connect to a random fork and spend and receive conins on a random chain every time they connect. What do you think the users loosing coins due to this will do?  Run to buy coins from the chanfork which is mos popular this week, or get the f out of Bitcoin before it is too late?

The reason why so many fork supporters run a full node is obvious: If the fork happens, there is no other way to be sure to use the correct altcoin than by running a full node supporting the altcoin they want to use, and not even that will work if the standard bitcoin fork comes back ahead of their altchain.  Yes, the coins will become worthless.  People use bitcoin as a currency for transactions and storage of value, not for the drama.  When the coins can't be used reliably without keeping up with the drama, people are going to jump ship.
You're welcome to call Bitcoin Classic/XT/Unlimited an altcoin if you want.  It does make it difficult to take your call for less drama serious though. I just hope you make it clear to your customers that you're selling coins from an obsolete husk of the Core project when the time comes.
I do make it very clear that I sell Bitcoin and no altcoins.  I always did.  I link to bitcoin.org in my FAQ.

I don't know what will be done to SPVs if it gets as far as you seem to believe. I'll leave that to people smarter than me. But I do know that these technical difficulties are far more manageable than trying to recoup the lost competitive advantage if we allow Bitcoin to be held back until Core is done with their "Roadmap". You're from Norway, so you must know the dangers of relying on technology that doesn't exist yet. Do you remember "The Norwegian Moon Landing" at Mongstad?
When Core is done with their roadmap, the SPV problem will at least be solved by the fraud proofs included in the segwit proposal.  This makes the world a bit safer for SPV wallets.  Segwit has a testnet, and works, btw.  Many wallets have it implemented already.  You are welcome to test it.  Join #segwit-dev on Freenode to discuss.
116  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 01, 2016, 09:46:22 PM
I have tried to get an answer to what I think is the biggest problem here many times, but you keep ignoring it:
SPV wallets, which most people use, will connect to a random fork and spend and receive conins on a random chain every time they connect.  Whyat do you think the users loosing coins due to this will do?  Run to buy coins from the chanfork which is mos popular this week, or get the f out of Bitcoin before it is too late?
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SPV clients which connect to full nodes can detect a likely hard fork by connecting to several full nodes and ensuring that they’re all on the same chain with the same block height, plus or minus several blocks to account for transmission delays and stale blocks. If there’s a divergence, the client can disconnect from nodes with weaker chains.

SPV clients should also monitor for block and transaction version number increases to ensure they process received transactions and create new transactions using the current consensus rules.
source
In the madness of someone intentionally hardforking with little support and only a few nodes, there is still a very high chance of a SPV wallet getting on a different fork.
117  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 01, 2016, 09:39:24 PM
Really?  Tell me then, why would someone invest the kind of money needed to gain more than 50% of the hashrate, just to destroy the value of it?  This is not as obvious to me as it is yo you.
Tell me then, why would someone invest money in a monority chain with 25% of hash power, just to make a hard fork permanent and destory the value of it?
People will mine on the correct chain for profit.  It is the one most of the users will use.  More than 90% of nodes are currently running Core.  Just a month back less than 87% of all nodes ran Core.  Which means the users are running Core, and will want Core coins.  People will SPV wallets are more than 90% likely to connect to a Core chain, and only see Core coins.  The value will dwindle, but Bitcoin is still the coin of choice for more than 90% of the users.

It is the major consensus decide what is real bitcoin, nothing else. Please do your home work and make sure you fully understand why a coin's value will be very close to its mining cost (e.g. total hash power)
Invalid blocks are invalid, no matter how many miners build on top of the invalid blocks.
Until they cheat the old nodes to believe that they are valid, which is exactly the soft fork do. SW blocks are invalid for example, they are definitely not bitcoin blocks, but they cheat old nodes to believe that they are still valid. Unfortunately, the moment they start to cheat the old nodes, old nodes will also accept invalid SW blocks that they can not identify, that's where you get your hard fork
Huh?  The bitcoin blocks are still valid bitcoin blocks when segwit is deployed.  Transactions with a segregated witness will have the signature in a separate chain, but this does not change the validity of the block.  The blocks and the transactions in the blocks are perfectly valid to all nodes.

Only upgraded nodes will know how to check the validity of transactions where the spent txout is from a transaction with segregated witness, but this won't be a problem.  It won't activate until at least 95% of the hashrate support it.  Any chainforks will therefore be short, and can not be hard.

The July 04 fork was not a hard fork.  Chainforks happen every day.  For that reason you should not accept
The July 04 fork IS a hard fork, a few nodes with majority of hash power mined the longest chain, and the consensus did not regard that longest chain to be valid.  The rule says that the longest chain should be the correct chain, but consensus says it is not. This is a perfect example that consensus decide what is bitcoin, not code.
The rule says the longest chain is only correct if it follows all the rules.  Simply being the longest is not enough.  The stupid miner announced support for BIP66 without actually supporting it.  He lost money, and was probably thought a lesson.  All nodes, both old and upgraded, were on the correct chain as soon as it overtook the malicious chain.

The August 2010 fork, which was much longer, was even correct according to the current consensus at that time.  Unfortunately this was non-intentional, and a new version was rushed out to mine out the chain with the malicious block at low difficulty.

It is similar in 2013 fork, consensus decided 0.7 is bitcoin, not 0.8, so that even 0.8 have more hash power and the longest chain, it is not bitcoin
Of course, even though Gavin wanted to hard fork even then by defining the 0.8 behaviour correct.  That would have been disastrous.  I remember the other developers spent some time convincing him.

Like you said, fork happens every day, because there is constantly disagreement in the network, but that is unavoidable, unless you want to have a communism type total domination disallow any kind of different voice, fork will always happen. You might remember that when we had the first reward halving, there was a hard fork that is permanently mining 50 bitcoin forever, but that did not create the situation you described, it just died like any other hard fork due to no major consensus
Correct.  No consensus make hard forks die.  Which is why all the current Bit-altcoins are stillborn, and very few actually run them.
118  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 01, 2016, 08:37:06 PM
Both coins will soon get worthless, since people can't use them.  Hashpower is not the same as users or nodes.
correct. nevertheless thats not the situation we have at the moment. its not 80% hashpower against the rest of the community.
in fact its more like some part of core stands against pretty much everyone else in the bitcoin universe.
Where on Earth did you get that idea!?  The number of nodes running bit-altcoins, like "Bitcoin XT", "Bitcoin Classic", "Bitcoin Unlimited", etc, is decreasing, and less than 10% of the total.  If you see at e.g. the "Bitcoin Classic" website, the list of supporters is very short.  The vast majority still run and support standard Bitcoin.  
Bitcoin Classic hasn't been released yet.
According to "ShadowOfHarbinger" it was released days ago, but he is full of crap and might be lying.  

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bitcoin services are in favor of 2MB. that means stamp, coinbase, blockchain.org, bitpay, etc etc
Most Bitcoin services support standard Bitcoin.  By any metric.
https://bitcoinclassic.com/

If you look at the list at Bitcoin Classics website there are a lot of heavy hitters.
Not a lot.  There are a few who took VC money from the same people.

A much longer list than the one on the "Bitcoin Classic" site.

Few big players have voiced support for Core. At least I couldn't find many, maybe you see something I can't see (sry, there's bitmynt). Exchanges like Huobi, Bitfinex and Kraken are probably waiting to see which side of the net the ball lands.
Or they just don't care about the drama, and will stick with standard bitcoin.

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so its basically a minor group of devs against everyone else.
Again: How did you get this idea?  I have been in #bitcoin on Freenode since 2010, and the support for the current consensus is almost unison.  People are mostly making fun of this sillly forking idea.  It is harder to operate a bunch of shills and sybils on IRC than Bitcointalk and Reddit, of course.
And you wonder why people are frustrated with Core?
Yes.

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The forkers don't even agree on how to fork.  The current count is 380 nodes running "Bitcoin XT", 103 running "Bitcoin Classic" and 75 running "Bitcoin Classic".  We may end up with four different blockchains.
Bitcoin unlimited clients will work as long as they're set to 2MB/2MB+. I'm not sure how XT will deal with this, but it shouldn't be a problem for them to implement a 2MB version if they want to keep pusing for their own solution.
Currently Unlimited has more support than Classic, XT has much more support than both of them, and Core dwarfs them all.  Support for larger blocksize forks have dwindled since the bitcoin developers agreed on a roadmap which scales much better than the alternatives, and avoids a hard fork.  On January 1st there were almost 750 nodes trying to fork vs 4879 nodes running Bitcoin Core.  The number of Core nodes is increasing, and the number of fork nodes is decreasing.  Looks like most people are pushing for the Core solution.

The forkers don't even agree on how to fork.  The current count is 380 nodes running "Bitcoin XT", 103 running "Bitcoin Classic" and 75 running "Bitcoin Classic".  We may end up with four different blockchains.
1Bitcoin, 3 shitcoins. Cool
How would XT and Classic both activate when each require 750/1000 blocks to activate?
If a majority of miners do it, they will do it again just for the fun of it.  The coins will be worthless anyway.
You can't be serious? If that's not a joke it's the worst "slippery slope" argument I've ever heard.
I have tried to get an answer to what I think is the biggest problem here many times, but you keep ignoring it:
SPV wallets, which most people use, will connect to a random fork and spend and receive conins on a random chain every time they connect.  Whyat do you think the users loosing coins due to this will do?  Run to buy coins from the chanfork which is mos popular this week, or get the f out of Bitcoin before it is too late?

The reason why so many fork supporters run a full node is obvious: If the fork happens, there is no other way to be sure to use the correct altcoin than by running a full node supporting the altcoin they want to use, and not even that will work if the standard bitcoin fork comes back ahead of their altchain.  Yes, the coins will become worthless.  People use bitcoin as a currency for transactions and storage of value, not for the drama.  When the coins can't be used reliably without keeping up with the drama, people are going to jump ship.
119  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 01, 2016, 07:55:29 PM
The forkers don't even agree on how to fork.  The current count is 380 nodes running "Bitcoin XT", 103 running "Bitcoin Classic" and 75 running "Bitcoin Classic".  We may end up with four different blockchains.
1Bitcoin, 3 shitcoins. Cool
How would XT and Classic both activate when each require 750/1000 blocks to activate?
If a majority of miners do it, they will do it again just for the fun of it.  The coins will be worthless anyway.
120  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? on: February 01, 2016, 07:47:21 PM
Besides a few payment processors, any evidence to support such claims?
afaik from those pools, exchanges, payment processors that went public pretty much all supported 2MB. the bitcoin-economy seems to be pretty decided on that matter. i obv wont go and search for every statement, i remember a dicussion at #bitcoin-dev where core devs also agreed that the economy seems to be against them. they blamed it on wrong communications etc.
or in other words, name important players of the bitcoin economy which publicly declared that they wanna keep 1MB. you wont find any.
I haven't researched this much, since I assume that the vast majority who didn't publicly announce support for any of the four forks, support the current roadmap, but here is one in addition to myself.  From #localbitcoins-chat:
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--- Day changed Wed Jan 20 2016
00:59 < belcher> jeremias and MaxLBC, does localbitcoins.com have a policy on the contentious hardforks which increase the block size? proposed by e.g. bitcoin-xt, bitcoin unlimited, bitcoin classic, or would you only ever hardfork with near-unanimous agreement of all bitcoin's users
08:03 <@jeremias> regarding hard fork, I think localbitcoins is not in the 2mb camp
Localbitcoins is one of the largest exchanges (perhaps the largest) by number of users, and one of the largest by BTC volume.

I don't think you will find anyone who support the status quo, if that is what you mean by 1 MB.  The roadmap scales much better than any suggested blocksize increment.
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