Bitcoin Forum
May 04, 2024, 11:21:56 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
  Home Help Search Login Register More  
  Show Posts
Pages: « 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 [55] 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 »
1081  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 26, 2012, 07:05:35 AM
Why do I have to go to the local doctor?
Because you aren't walking or talking or thinking, you are about to die.  The doctor has to decide for you, and only has seconds to do so.
These ridiculous hypotheticals prove nothing.
These ridiculous hypotheticals happen every minute.  Only regulations stop the further consequences.

Quote
The free market solution provides better care in general, because all the right incentives are there.
This is simply not true.  You are making this up.  Give one example of a country with a free market health system that is better and more efficient than a public health system.  One single case.  Just one! 

Quote
Stats are easily biased and misinterpreted. The fact is that if you understand that businesses profit ONLY by being the best providers of a good or service in a competitive market place, the profit incentive naturally leads to low prices and high quality. How does the computer industry work? Are the regulators forcing manufacturers to produce faster, more efficient chips? No, manufacturers do this on their own because their customers want it.
Your mistake here is to assume health services is a free market.  It isn't.  You can't go shopping for a surgery when you are half dead, like you shop for a computer.  I live in a public health system, and I can still choose which hospital to get treatment at (even private hospitals).  Try to make me choose another hospital than the closest adequate one if I fall seriously ill.  It isn't going to happen.  If I wasn't dead or in a much worse condition when I got to a hospital far away, I would certainly not enjoy the transport.  The right to choose hospital makes almost no difference to where people get treated.  Luckily there are regulations to assure a minimum quality, so I'm not putting myself at risk by going to the closest hospital, and there is not really a need to google for alternatives in the ambulance.

Quote
Do you have to buy computer insurance? No, because they're so damn cheap you can just buy a new one if it breaks. This is the unregulated market.
If your heart stops, you assume that you can just go to the shop and get a new one, right?  I value myself more than I value my computer.  I also value my house more than I value my computer, and have an insurance for my house.  I do not have insurance for my health.  My health is insured by the public health system, since I am valuable for the government as a tax payer.  The government profits by making sure I get well and get back to work as soon as possible.

Quote
Also, there would be certification institutions for medical practitioners, if the market demanded it. Also, this would be considered fraud and the "doctor" would be liable for damages.
Ah, so you want some kind of regulation after all!  Like certifications, which you argued against earlier.
1082  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 26, 2012, 06:33:58 AM
You say that "governments have the right to tax you." Why?
I have written many posts explaining that.  Go back and ask about the specifics you don't understand, and I may be able to explain them to you again.  I understand it can be difficult when you lack basic logic knowledge and don't believe in the right to property.  (Because it is evident to anyone with a basic understanding og property and logic.)
But I do believe in the right to property. I just want to know why the government thinks it's OK to take mine.
It isn't yours, it belongs to the government.  What make you think it is yours?

Your rights over property you call your own are limited by the same laws that allow you to own property in the first place.  If you don't want the laws to apply, you need to start your own country.  Either by fighting for it, which I understand you want to do by threatening the police, or by settling in some part of the earth not yet claimed by any nation and declare your own nation there.  If you decide to take the land from your country by force, you must be prepared to fight the army.  The country has a right to fight back.
1083  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 25, 2012, 08:50:17 PM
You say that "governments have the right to tax you." Why?
I have written many posts explaining that.  Go back and ask about the specifics you don't understand, and I may be able to explain them to you again.  I understand it can be difficult when you lack basic logic knowledge and don't believe in the right to property.  (Because it is evident to anyone with a basic understanding og property and logic.)
1084  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 25, 2012, 08:31:07 PM
Then you become a threat to yourself and others. You will be taken without lethal harm if at all possible. If you provide a significant threat to officers, they are entitled to shoot you in self defense.
So, we have arrived at the threat of death. From not paying taxes.
No.  From threatening the police.
Who would not be there trying to kidnap you if you had payed the tax. And I'd hardly call defending oneself from being kidnapped "threatening."
The police wouldn't be there in the first place if you paid your tax.  Stop whining like a baby and pay your tax like a grownup.

I doubt the police would make arrests in anything but property, unless you threaten them.  Your property is more valuable than you when the tax is to be paid.  Kidnap you!?  To demand ransom?  You sure have a child's fantasy.  The government has the right to take back their property, and throw you out of it if necessary.  Just like you have if someone live at your place without paying the the rent.  If they don't like your rent, they are free to move to another place with a lower rent.  And so are you when it comes to taxes.
1085  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 25, 2012, 08:11:09 PM
Then you become a threat to yourself and others. You will be taken without lethal harm if at all possible. If you provide a significant threat to officers, they are entitled to shoot you in self defense.
So, we have arrived at the threat of death. From not paying taxes.
No.  From threatening the police.
1086  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 25, 2012, 07:47:19 PM
If threatening to kill someone is immoral, why is using that threat moral when "required by law"?
No law in my country will threaten to kill anyone.
The police in your country are unarmed, then?
Correct.
1087  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 25, 2012, 07:45:35 PM
They have exempted themselves from all "gun control" laws and have all lethal weapons imaginable at their disposal, and use them with impunity (which means never worrying about being imprisoned, let alone prosecuted, for murder, civil rights violations resulting in death). "Not at all", my ass.
What country is this?  In my country it is very common to own a gun, but the police do not carry guns.  The police are allowed to arm themselves if the situation requires it, but the rules are very strict and it rarely happens.  Violence involving firearms is very rare.
1088  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 25, 2012, 07:40:08 PM
If threatening to kill someone is immoral, why is using that threat moral when "required by law"?
No law in my country will threaten to kill anyone.  In fact the most common reason for people getting political asylum in most of Europe is a death penalty, or a real threat of a death penalty, in their home countries.  Only a handful countries still practice death penalty, and I have no plans to go there.

And I'm still not answering your silly hypothetical questions with no base in modern reality.  Go back in time and ask me then, or whatever.
1089  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 25, 2012, 07:20:06 PM
If something can be both moral in immoral at the same time, that's pretty much the end of this. Since if you say X is immoral, that means nothing. It's a null statement.
I still don't get the point of this discussion.  The tax discussion has diverged into some pointless question asking about morality, like it had anything to do with it.  Countries have the right to tax their land and inhabitants.  It is the foundation of human civilization.  No less.  For good and evil.  Without there would either be no nations or no freedom (North Korea is the only completely tax free nation I know of).
1090  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 25, 2012, 06:31:58 PM
Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?
If they were both taking money by force or intimidation, they would. But they're not. To make them the same, replace "threatening to throw you out" with "threatening to kill you." So, would it be moral to threaten someone with death for failure to pay rent?

No, threatening to kill someone is immoral.  And illegal.  Threatening to kill someone can get you in prison for up to three years in my country.
1091  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 25, 2012, 06:02:07 PM
Quote
Let me ask you an easier question to answer: If an immoral action is legally required, does that confer morality?
I know of no real world example of an immoral action which is legally required of me.  Feel free to find real world examples. 
Taking money by force or intimidation is immoral, yes or no?
When required by law, and the force or intimidation used is within limits described by law?  No, of course not!  It would be immoral not to pay in the first place.
So what you're saying is, basically, this?
Haha, no.

Quote
I wasn't asking about law. I was asking about morality. Is taking money by force or intimidation moral, or immoral? It cannot be both.
Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?

Could you please just tell me what you try to achieve by repeating questions?  You keep asking the same over and over, until you get an answer you can quote out of context and change the meaning of to prove something for yourself.
1092  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 25, 2012, 05:33:03 PM
Quote
Let me ask you an easier question to answer: If an immoral action is legally required, does that confer morality?
I know of no real world example of an immoral action which is legally required of me.  Feel free to find real world examples. 
Taking money by force or intimidation is immoral, yes or no?
When required by law, and the force or intimidation used is within limits described by law?  No, of course not!  It would be immoral not to pay in the first place.
1093  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 25, 2012, 05:02:22 PM
I understand how it would be difficult to answer these questions from your perspective.
Those are trick questions.  You are using them to force me to give answers to support your wicked religion, even if the questions themselves bear no relevance to reality.  The answer would be just as irrelevant as the questions.  The situation you describe is impossible, and you know this very well.  Would it be immoral to divide by zero?

Quote
Let me ask you an easier question to answer: If an immoral action is legally required, does that confer morality?
I know of no real world example of an immoral action which is legally required of me.  Feel free to find real world examples.  Please keep to yourself your obscene fantasies and obscure laws from countries which I have chosen not to live in or even travel to.
1094  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 25, 2012, 10:11:05 AM
Theft is legally defined as: the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

Funny how every government, chock-full of immoral cunts, exempts itself from every law (of nature, and of its own making) under the sun, in order to violate every human right under the sun, with practical impunity, and people defend these evil, tyrannical, murderous, raping cunts to the death.
Huh?  The law books are full of laws depriving the government from power.  It is basically what laws do.  Without them you wouldn't have any rights, including human rights, as the government owns everything on it's land by definition.  The laws hand a lot of rights over from the government to the citicens, including limited private property rights, but keep others.  Like the right to deprive thieves from some liberties granted by law.  The right for a government to tax it's land and people is older than any human rights, and is mainly the reason why countries exist in the first place.  If kings/emperors/pharaos/tsars/presidents couldn't demand anything from their people, they wouldn't have a reason to gather all this land and defend it.

Due to free market competition, countries with good laws and low level of exploitation of their people tend to be more successful than other countries.  They will attract smart people.  If they give up their right to be a country, they will be conquered by someone who won't.
1095  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 25, 2012, 07:58:51 AM
"A lot of things are legal and still not moral." Since something can be legal, and at the same time not moral, then legality is not sufficient to make something moral [...] Ergo, legality does not confer morality.
You missed again!  Legailty = the state or quality of being in conformity with the law; lawfulness.  Morailty = conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.  I specifically stated that the negative state of legality confers the negative state of morality.  You imply the opposite.
No, I do not imply the opposite. I state the the positive state of legality does not, in and of itself, confer the positive state of morality. You specifically agreed with me: "A lot of things are legal and still not moral."
You intentionally replaced the words legal and moral with legality and morality.  For the first pair the state is given.  For the second pair the state can be both.

Quote
Quote
I completely understand the concept of property. We disagree on the ownership of certain property, however. Now, if you would answer the question? Does a flag make theft moral?
Why do you keep asking questions I already answered multiple times in bold?
Because you keep answering the wrong question. The question you answer is "Does a flag make theft legal?" I am asking if it makes it moral. However, you also state that if something is illegal, it is also immoral, so we can probably safely assume the answer to the question I am actually asking is also no.
Congratulations, you finally got it!

Quote
However, You have raised an interesting question. Perhaps it is the fact that it is legally required that makes theft moral?
Theft is legally defined.  If it isn't legally theft, it isn't theft.  In my country everyone are free to move on and harvest wild berries from uninhabited non-cultivated land, no matter who owns the land.  It falls under the freedom to roam, which is an ancient right held in high regard.  In many other countries picking blueberries and mushrooms in someone else's forest would be theft.

Quote
To that end, I'd appreciate if you answered the questions I posed to you earlier:
If it were legally required to own a slave, would you? What if it were legally required to rape your daughter on her 15th birthday?
I already told you a milder version of your first question is so hypothetical it hurts, and your second question doesn't describe anything sensible.  Your questions don't deserve an answer.  If the moon was made of cheese and it kept bouncing on the Earth, would a yellow striped heffalump eat it?
1096  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 25, 2012, 06:11:44 AM
"A lot of things are legal and still not moral." Since something can be legal, and at the same time not moral, then legality is not sufficient to make something moral [...] Ergo, legality does not confer morality.
You missed again!  Legailty = the state or quality of being in conformity with the law; lawfulness.  Morailty = conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.  I specifically stated that the negative state of legality confers the negative state of morality.  You imply the opposite.

Is basic logic so hard for you?  No wonder you can't understand property or law.

Quote
Quote
Hmm. Maybe it's those nifty flags. If I create a really cool flag, And fly it wherever I go, can I steal whatever I want?
You completely fail to understand the concept of property.  I think that is sad.  How can stealing have meaning to you when property don't?
I completely understand the concept of property. We disagree on the ownership of certain property, however. Now, if you would answer the question? Does a flag make theft moral?
Why do you keep asking questions I already answered multiple times in bold?
1097  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 24, 2012, 11:52:52 PM
A lot of things are legal and still not moral.  
Not a direct answer, but good enough for my purposes. You've stated that legality does not confer morality, which is all the answer I need.
No, I did not state that.
Yes, you did. If legality conveyed morality, then anything legal would be moral.
You still fail Logic.  Look up modus ponens and modus tollens and read again.

Short summary:  not legal -> not moral
This does not imply anything else.  You can not turn the arrow or remove one or both "not"s without changing the meaning.  By changing the words to legality and morality, you get at least one possible meaning which is different from what I wrote.
IF what you had written was "It's not legal, therefore it's not moral" (Which you did later, but that's not the quote we're discussing, here)
No, you are very selective about the quotes you want to discuss.  You quickly deleted this part: You took it out of context and invented your own meaning.
Quote
then you would be correct. But what you actually said (quoted above) was: "There are things which ARE legal and which ARE NOT moral."

I am correct and you don't make logical sense.  Please look up modus ponens and modus tollens.  By failing the simplest logic, you are making a complete fool of yourself.  No wonder you need the same answers over and over again, and still don't understand them.

Quote
Quote
Let me ask again: If I call myself the government, and call it a tax when I steal from you, does that make it moral?
No, you are not the government, and it doesn't matter what you call yourself or what you do when you steal my property.
Thank you. So now, we've established that it doesn't matter what you call yourself or what you call what you do when you steal property, it's still wrong. Adding that to the list, we've discounted names, costumes, benefits, voting, and legality.
Yes, breaking the law is wrong.  I have never written or implied anything else, and if you think so it is because you fail the simplest logic.  Why did you bother to ask the question when I already answered multiple times in bold?

As tax goes, it's payment to the real government (i.e. not you, whatever you call yourself) is required by law. Therefore it is immoral and wrong to not pay tax to the country who's land you live on.  This follows by the same logic.

Quote
Hmm. Maybe it's those nifty flags. If I create a really cool flag, And fly it wherever I go, can I steal whatever I want?
You completely fail to understand the concept of property.  I think that is sad.  How can stealing have meaning to you when property don't?
1098  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 24, 2012, 11:17:25 PM
A lot of things are legal and still not moral.  
Not a direct answer, but good enough for my purposes. You've stated that legality does not confer morality, which is all the answer I need.
No, I did not state that.
Yes, you did. If legality conveyed morality, then anything legal would be moral.

You still fail Logic.  Look up modus ponens and modus tollens and read again.

Short summary:  not legal -> not moral
This does not imply anything else.  You can not turn the arrow or remove one or both "not"s without changing the meaning.  By changing the words to legality and morality, you get at least one possible meaning which is different from what I wrote.

Quote
Let me ask again: If I call myself the government, and call it a tax when I steal from you, does that make it moral?
No, you are not the government, and it doesn't matter what you call yourself or what you do when you steal my property.  Why do you keep asking this silly question?  By stealing you are breaking the law, which is immoral.  I don't know why I keep typing this, because you obviously don't know how to read.
1099  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 24, 2012, 10:45:18 PM
Maximising profit is an extremely cost effective way to serve the market, because a business only profits from serving it's customers most effectively. Except when the state interferes with force.
In an unregulated health market, if you were about to die and needed immediate treatment, and a doctor saved you, the closest doctor and hospital would own you for the rest of your life.  The power of a natural monopoly.  You are not in a position to haggle over the price.
Lots of assumptions here.

Why do I have to go to the local doctor?
Because you aren't walking or talking or thinking, you are about to die.  The doctor has to decide for you, and only has seconds to do so.

Quote
Why is healthcare expensive? we already discussed the fact that the state drives up the costs in the first place.
Yep, it is the hopeless mix of private and public health system with insurance companies and lawyers taking cuts.  It's an industry.  A public health system proves to be much more efficient, as far as you can prove something using statistics from other countries.

Quote
Why can't charities/family help out? Without paying tribute to our government overlords, we will have plenty of wealth left over to help the needy.
They will have to help out as well when the bill for keeping that heart and lung machine running for tree days come on the table.  You chose the extra expensive model by moving your left eyelid, or so the doctor tells you.

Quote
Why is the doctor a total asshole who will demand life servitude for saving someones life?
Because with no regulations he can.

Quote
Before the government stepped in with it's regulation and licences and general market distortions, doctors did pro-bono work all the time. Now it's too much of a liability.
Yeah.  With no regulations and licences and "general market distortions", you have no idea if he is actually educated as a doctor.  He may have been a homeless who just mugged a doctor for his bag and coat, and got lucky because he happened to be around the office doing pro-bono work as a gynecologist.
1100  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why are people scared of taxes? on: October 24, 2012, 10:25:43 PM
You can go with the old standard e.g.; it is moral because god is on my side,
Even Jesus told people to pay their taxes to the emperor in Rome.  This was very controversial at the time.  The Romans did not hesitate to use force to make people pay their taxes.  Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's.  He had a clear understanding of property rights.
Pages: « 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 [55] 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 »
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!