Yes, swiping a card then walking out the door with your items is so primitive.
I rather pay $49.99 for Bitpay's digital wallet with a 5 hour battery life, go through various menus, wait several seconds for the QR code to scan and finalize the transaction.
Oh wait, my battery died. I guess I won't be buying anything today.
Is there a gas leak in here? I swear, you guys are thinking like a failing toy company.
That’s the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say in my life. You do realize that all mainstream financial institutions are already heading this direction, don’t you genius? Have you ever considered shitting out of the other side of your body like the rest of the world! I see nobody paying with their phone. Zero. Whatever the banks are doing is worth nothing. You people are stuck in a nerdy scifi dream world. In many other places in the world, this is how they transect purchases. I was in Congo a few months back and saw all these people go to a store and play with their phone at the cash register. I didn't know what they were doing and the sales person showed me how they can send money to each via SMS. I thought, why don't we do this in America? I guess it doesn't matter anyway. "Boss" is on my ignore list. It does not happen in the United States because the United States has one of the most archaic and over regulated banking systems in the world. M-PESA is one of the most innovative financial products world wide and it is not available in "developed" countries because of banking regulations more often than not at the behest of the United Sates. By the way one of the really cool features of M-PESA is that one can walk into a store and purchase M-PESA for cash and have your M-PESA credited to your phone. Even here in Canada our banking system is decades ahead of the US system. |
|
|
|
I see nobody paying with their phone. Zero. Whatever the banks are doing is worth nothing. You people are stuck in a nerdy scifi dream world.
That's because you live in the armpit of assland Texas. Try coming to Asia where we make everything you get 6 years before you get it. I use my phone to pay for everything. Please step aside and let the adults talk. Asia is a different culture. What works for Asians may not always work fully for Americans and other peoples. It is a different culture indeed, and as I've pointed out numerous times, I truly believe that Bitcoin is essentially useless to Koreans for example who can wire transfer over their cell phone in the same amount of time it would take to send bitcoins, all from a secured, locked down, government backed and insured bank of 100+ years history without incurring any fees at all. That right there though only works in a country as small as Korea for legal reasons alone. Having something like that in the USA would be a nightmare for legal and financial reasons. And that is exactly my point. America hasn't been the "leader" in technology in a long, long time. Right now it's the anvil of the technology world-- solid, but weighing everything else down. Until they wish to purchase a product or service from a US Website without a Credit Card. International cross culture online transactions is where Bitcoin will shine, not in person local transactions where there is already a smorgasbord of payment methods to choose from. Reading this thread is like watching a bunch of people argue on the most effective way to pick the fruit right at the top of the tree when is an abundance of ripe fruit ready to be picked right at arms length. I say pick the easy fruit first, feast, and then worry about the fruit at the top of the tree. |
|
|
|
Yes, swiping a card then walking out the door with your items is so primitive.
I rather pay $49.99 for Bitpay's digital wallet with a 5 hour battery life, go through various menus, wait several seconds for the QR code to scan and finalize the transaction.
Oh wait, my battery died. I guess I won't be buying anything today.
Is there a gas leak in here? I swear, you guys are thinking like a failing toy company.
In solidarity with the poor. None of the above. Just cash. |
|
|
|
Yes, let's replace cheap plastic, disposable cards with an expensive device. Let's require all the poor people out there to invest in electronics.
What's this I hear? Atlas suddenly wants to champion for the world's poor? Face it. Electronics that enable activities that cannot be done without them are not at fault for not being able to function in a time and space that they don't in fact exist in. Did you think Bitcoin was free or something? Have you looked around at the mining subforums lately? The poor are not going to use the "cheap plastic" or the "expensive device" for in person transactions. They will likely stay with cash. Online where cash does not work is where Bitcoin has the real opportunity with the poor. |
|
|
|
|
The real advantage lies with those who do not have a credit card or Paypal account. The real choice here is not between $4.95 via Bitcoin / Bit-Pay or $4.55 via Paypal but rather between $4.95 via Bitcoin / Bit-Pay and no sale.
|
|
|
|
I respectfully disagree with the OP that bitcoins on some type of a plastic spending card is the future.
Plastic discs for music are not used anymore. Everything is all digital, portable, and has much better utility.
Plastic payment cards for purchases are going to face a similar fate as CDs. I don't think it makes any sense to have bitcoin go backwards in technology.
The future is all digital. Payments Cards, Gift Cards, all that plastic crap in your wallet is about to be replaced with something in digital form, just like the stack of music CDs has been replaced my collections of MP3 files.
Digital Wallets are the future. What we need are simple, elegant, mobile bitcoin wallets. No block chain, no hassle, make it simple and easy. Ditch the plastic cards, that's 1950s technology. Go with the digital wallet, its where bitcoin shines!!!
Credit Cards were designed in the 1950's and 1960's for in person transactions. Their use online is actually a hack and one that leads to fraud, charge backs etc. What I see that many forget is that there are many people who still use cash and it is in most cases the poor. The reason they use cash is because they do not have a credit card or a bank account for that matter. To mention an extreme case. One can give cash to a homeless person on the street, but can one perform the same transaction with a digital wallet? I am not aware of many homeless people that have merchant accounts! To put it bluntly the poor are the low hanging fruit for Bitcoin, not for in-person transactions but for online transactions. |
|
|
|
Step 1: Make a Bitcoin web portal that is the easiest way to pay and get paid.
How does money work for most people online?
1. They find an item or service they like.
2. They click purchase.
3. They enter their credit card or Paypal information.
4. The item/service is on its way.
That's it. They don't have to wait for the network to finish downloading the blockchain. They don't have to enter a couple of passwords and validate the purchase an extra time. It just works.
Make Bitcoin easier than this and give people incentive to switch to Bitcoin from their current methods, then Bitcoin will be a step closer to being mainstream.
Non-existent fees and a decentralized network aren't going to sell most people on Bitcoin. The key thing is user experience.
You have to make it easy for people to get Bitcoins and send them. We're nowhere close.
Step 2: Make a Bitcoin card and make it compatible with current credit card machines.
How do most people purchase things in store?
1. They bring their item(s) to checkout, they are priced and they are given a total.
2. They scan their credit card.
3. They bring their items to the car and go about their lives.
They don't want to pull out their phone, type in how much they want to spend, point it at a QR code and wait for the network to register it. That's not innovation. It's pure stupidity. If this is the future of Bitcoin, then Bitcoin is going nowhere for ordinary people.
[CAUTION: YOU ARE ABOUT TO TAKE A LOOK INTO THE FUTURE]
There's a simpler solution: You give consumers credit cards with the Bitcoins (or private key) encoded on the magnetic strip, with a Bitcoin wallet address on the outside of the card.
You give merchants software for their credit card machines that hook directly to the Bitcoin network and directly transfer from Bitcoin private keys on customer's cards.
Consumers load up their cards at home through the public wallet address on the front of their cards. They go shopping, pick their items and scan the cards without a sweat when they want to purchase.
What if they are afraid their Bitcoin credit card has had its information stolen? They empty the card out and use another one. It's very simple.
If they are paranoid enough, they can tie the Bitcoin cards to two private keys and the card can't be emptied without a PIN number or approval from a mobile phone.
However, most consumers will be fine with just using plain cards. An extra complicated step is not the best solution for most people.
In fact, cards can be made into a cash/credit hybrid. A card won't have to carry more than $20 at any given time. Such a card won't have to have tight security.
You won't have to put more on a card than you are willing to lose.
In summary, follow these two steps and Bitcoin will be the currency of the future.
You're welcome.
This assumes that the customer wishing to pay for a product or service on line actually has a credit card. There is a huge market for Bitcoin for those online merchants who wish to sell products or services to those that do not have a credit card. This is not about making Bitcoin more convenient, it is about identifying where Bitcoin is the only viable option and where the alternative is: No Sale. |
|
|
|
...
Now, as far as bitcoins held personally (in a local wallet) the argument has been made that since they are actually "held in the blockchain" which is stored globally, that an FBAR might need to be recorded for them.
That argument is likely a fail though. Nodes stored outside the U.S. do hold my transactions but there is nothing to indicate that the nodes are operating as a financial institution. It wouldn't seem that FBAR applies there at all.
I am not a lawyer. But collectively all the nodes and miners are operating as a financial institution even though individually they may not be, that is the very essence of Bitcoin! The test that comes to mind is this. Consider a fundamental protocol change to the Bitcoin network. For example BIP 16 and BIP 17. Now let us say that all the nodes and miners outside of the US went with BIP 16, and all the nodes and miners inside the US went with BIP 17. If BIP 16 wins under this scenario then FBAR applies to a local wallet If BIP 17 wins under this scenario then FBAR does not apply a local wallet. |
|
|
|
Mastercard should fear BTC. They are already marginal and losing more market is not good for their future.
I disagree. I would gladly pay MC a monthly fee and interest to give me a BTC credit line and the usual chargeback / contest charge / fraud prevention services. Very scary thought. What would happen if someone charged $1,000 US worth of stuff on a credit card in April 2011 only to find out that when the bill arrived in May 2011 it was now $10,000 US? When it comes to borrowing money I will stick with fiat where the central banks are busy running "the printing press" and stay well away from hard forms of money such as Gold or Bitcoin. |
|
|
|
we still have intersango or bitstamp working flawlessly
that's all nice and stuff, but do they also offer a prepaid credit card which can be charged without relying on a local bank acc? and okpay doesn't have to comply with us banking pressure, please research for yourself before making such statements.
1.) The post above mentioned MasterCard. All "big three", Visa, MasterCard and AmEx are all U.S. based and as such, US regulations apply by proxy to all services offering any of them. The question is to what degree is okpay, as the only remaining service right after paxum, threatened to suffer the same fate as paxum... 2.) Since when is Canada in the US?? . No. Okpay does not accept funding via Credit Card, and that makes it very different from Paxum. The trouble with Paxum started after they started accepting Credit Card as a funding source. |
|
|
|
maybe they we're forced to make a deal if they wanted to have that scraped...
I would not be surprised if Paxum had to make more than one deal in order to keep their merchant account. |
|
|
|
I searched the FINTRAC site http://www.fintrac-canafe.gc.ca/intro-eng.asp for Bitcoin and found one reference http://www.fintrac-canafe.gc.ca/publications/watch-regard/2011-10-eng.asp from April - June 2011. The section on Bitcoin starts with " Bitcoins: a new anonymous digital currency and a potential vehicle for criminals to transfer money: According to investigators, an emerging digital currency named "Bitcoin", intended to allow people to send money without the use of payment processors or other financial institutions, could also be a method used by criminals to make anonymous international transactions. ..." The question is why now? Since this advisory Paxum started accepting Credit Cards as a funding source in November 2011, and I suspect that latter has a lot more to do with their decision to close Bitcoin related accounts than a 7 month old FINTRAC advisory. It is a lot easier to spread FUD about Bitcoin than to admit they were breaking Credit Card processing rules. |
|
|
|
I have been following this thread and the thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63465.0 with a lot of interest The issue here as was the case with Paypal is that services that accept funding via a credit card as a purchase cannot then allow those funds to be used to purchase another form of money. This is to avoid what is in reality a cash advance transaction to be treated as a purchase. One cannot go to say a Canadian Merchant with a Canadian Credit Card and for example purchase CAD or EUR. The consumer has to instead go to a bank, and get a cash advacne on the Credit Card and then purchase the USD or EUR. These rules have been in place for a very long time, long before Bitcoin or even the Internet existed, and for a very good reason. I've actually wondered about this - would it be possible to somehow bill bitcoin transactions as a cash advance? Perhaps if we had actual bitcoin ATMs that could do a card present pin transaction? Some ATMs actually have menu items that allow you to top up your mobile phone for instance.. perhaps a menu item could be added to some machines to buy bitcoins at an ATM and treat that as a cash advance transaction? If the merchant is authorized to do cash advance transactions on Credit Cards then yes that would work for BTC. I stand to be corrected on this but my understanding is that most merchant accounts do not have the ability to process cash advance transactions. Credit card cash advance transactions are typically processed at banks. What I do understand is that if a merchant processes what is in effect a cash advance as a purchase they are asking for their merchant account to be pulled. By the way this has nothing to do with AML laws it is about the risk to the credit card issuer of a cash advance vs a purchase. |
|
|
|
I have been following this thread and the thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63465.0 with a lot of interest The issue here as was the case with Paypal is that services that accept funding via a credit card as a purchase cannot then allow those funds to be used to purchase another form of money. This is to avoid what is in reality a cash advance transaction to be treated as a purchase. One cannot go to say a Canadian Merchant with a Canadian Credit Card and for example purchase CAD or EUR. The consumer has to instead go to a bank, and get a cash advacne on the Credit Card and then purchase the USD or EUR. These rules have been in place for a very long time, long before Bitcoin or even the Internet existed, and for a very good reason. There are many credit cards that have a say $1000 CAD cash advance limit and say an overall $4000 CAD overall limit. If one maxes out the $1000 CAD cash advance limit, and then goes to a bank for an additional $4000 CAD one gets declined, not because the overall limit was exceeded but because the $1000 CAD cash limit was exceeded. But our card holder still wants the cash advance. So instead he funds Paxum with his $4000 CAD credit as a purchase, then uses Paxum funds to fund MtGox via BitInstant, purchases $4000 CAD (less the fees) worth of BTC, then funds Cavirtex with the BTC, and sells back the BTC for CAD effectively getting his Cash Advance in CAD out of the Credit Card. The reality here is that many in the financial services sector are actually realising that BTC is actually money and has to be treated as such. What I find surprising actually is how long this has been allowed to go on. This is why one must avoid any service that can be funded by a Credit Card for the purchase of BTC. |
|
|
|
From the document:
Underbanked households are defined as those that have a checking or
savings account but rely on alternative financial services. Specifically,
underbanked households have used non-bank money orders, non-bank
check-cashing services, payday loans, rent-to-own agreements, or pawn
shops at least once or twice a year or refund anticipation loans at least
once in the past five years.
By that definition, I'm underbanked since I occasionally get money orders from the post office.
You could probably even construe all bitcoin users as "relying on alternative financial services".
I also have on the odd occasion purchased a Money Order at the Post Office, but I do not consider myself "under banked" and prefer to use my 1% cash back Credit Card as much as possible in order to use the 1% rebate to purchase Bitcoins. One can debate if 7% or 30% in United States is the most accurate figure, but regardless this is a huge eCommerce market for Bitcoin. Worldwide 30% is very conservative. |
|
|
|
The Fed is obviously going to try to eliminate cash in coming decade or two. Only terrorists and drug dealers use it anyway. Just force Bernakie Visa Credit Cards to peoples cell phone and outlaw purchases over $1k in cash like they do in Europe now.
Actually the poorest 30% of the population are heavy users of cash. Are we going to criminalize the poor? |
|
|
|
I am very familiar with the Visa and Master Card Branded Debit Cards in the United States, and they are an option for some people; however there is still the 17.9% under banked in addition to the 7.7% unbanked so it is still 25.6%. In many countries for example here in Canada bank accounts do not come with Visa and Master Card Branded Debit Cards.
When in mention fees for pre-paid cards it is the card issue fees, maintenance fees, reload fees etc that add up fast.
Again, no fees on my card, not for issue, not for maintenance, and not for reload. Also, WTF is "underbanked"? I'm not convinced that non of those people have checking accounts with debit cards. I'll give you the 7.7%, but I think you're skewing the numbers in favor of your point. It is explained in the FIDC Survey. Seriously when I see debates on payment systems on the merit or lack of merit of Bitcoin one thing that strikes me the most is the complete lack of understanding on both sides on the challenges faced by many that do not have access to the electronic payment systems we all take for granted. |
|
|
|
|
I am very familiar with the Visa and Master Card Branded Debit Cards in the United States, and they are an option for some people; however there is still the 17.9% under banked in addition to the 7.7% unbanked so it is still 25.6%. In many countries for example here in Canada bank accounts do not come with Visa and Master Card Branded Debit Cards.
When I mention fees for pre-paid cards it is the card issue fees, maintenance fees, reload fees etc that add up fast.
|
|
|
|
|
Pre-paid debit cards are an expensive option because of the fees. I have seen person spend $50 on a debit card to purchase a $20 item online for example. It is not like a Credit Card where one gets 1% cash back. Also because on the security systems there are many sites where a pre-paid debit card does not work.
|
|
|
|
|
Show Posts
