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I agree. The only people who have said John Carley exists are Brandenburg and Opperman. We have no proof he exists beyond the statements of known fraudsters. So, as far as I am concerned, there is no John Carley.
There is, however, a Thomas Opperman. And he's been doxxed.
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I found a picture of John Carley!!!!!!!  |
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Oh, I should point out I never meant you could get the returns BT Trader is claiming but you could certainly provide a *good* return.
None of us know what the if-this-isn't-a-Ponzi business model was because they didn't tell us, so we've only ourselves to blame.
I'm not denying it's a Ponzi - as has become truth rather than suspicion - but it is possible to run managed arbitrage and everyone make some money from it. Maybe not as much as these guys were claiming, but you could do well without shafting anyone.
As for the PR, well, the masterstroke was the mining shares. We all know that's a business model that works so it gave some people
Anyone with $100k and a mathematical brain (I have neither) can technically make $1000/day with arbitrage, more on a particularly volatile day, less on a shocker of a day, even a loss.
390
I still think the staff have been left high and dry by this Carley character, but I doubt there's eight anybodies trading, they're an invention. The people who do the comms, they're the ones who are left high and dry. I vaguely recall someone mentioning they'd never met Carley, which is when the dial swung firmly to Ponzi.
As with anything in the BTC world, be prepared to lose your inputs because nine times out of ten, when you entrust your cash/coin to others in this world, they steal it.
People need to stop thinking and falling for this. You can't arbitrage with infinite amounts of money. Right now You can buy 1 coin for $390 on btc-e and sell one for $400 on bitstamp. Yay, 10 bucks via arbitrage. But if you try to sell $100k worth of coins on you will sell the last coin for only $395, and who knows what price you will pay for the last coin at btc-e. The markets are not liquid enough to arbitrage with massive/infinite amounts of money. I agree Phildo, there are for sure limitations. This is very true. You have to really understand the market and the current orderbooks to be successful with arbitrage like that. Can the orderbooks support you placing a large buy/sell without destroying your profit? You can make 10$ off a sale, sure, heck, maybe you can even sell a couple bitcoin like that. But after that you'll start burning through orderbooks like no one's business. There's a sweet spot where you've got enough liquidity to make a profit, but not so much that you become a whale. |
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I don't see anyone having been banned.
Dozens of us have been banned. I actually left the group, voluntarily, a week before "the incident", and decided to join again to watch the show. My join request was answered by being blocked. I am unable to even view the non-member group "homepage". Are you referring to the official or unofficial group? |
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PexPay withdrawals still work, weird?
I'm assuming whatever balance they have there hasn't been exhausted. |
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I just have been banned from Michaela's anti Bitcoin-Trader facebook group, despite the announcement that nobidy will be banned. Michaela Juric-Donlan is an Australian Scammer, former stripper and prostitute using the following webpage to sell her illicit program: http://www.bitcoin-babe.com/I don't see anyone having been banned. Are you sure you weren't being an obvious sock-puppet? Based on your post history, you reek like a shill to me, but I could be wrong. Further, what proof do you have that she's a scammer? And if she was a stripper or prostitute (not that I think she is), what bearing exactly would that have on her business accumen? I've known both IRL (as well as a few performers from the blue biz), and several are quite successful in business. Are you familiar with the term "non-sequitur"? It sounds more like you're trying to assassinate the character of a harsh critic of BT more than you're trying to present hard facts. Which brings me back to thinking you're a sock puppet. |
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Don't think we will hear anything. I tried to join the Unofficial Facebook group to see if any progress was made there and was blocked. The dodgy just keeps on coming! Really? Odd. I don't recall seeing anyone be blocked unless they were clear sockpuppets (and even a few of those have made it in). |
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What makes no sense is sending a payment doesn't require you have the blockchain fully downloaded and updated. You just have to broadcast the transaction.
Most BTC companies require the ability to generate new random addresses on the fly for deposits, and what not, as well as a wide range of other functions that are accomplished using API commands directed at full node. That's the rub though. We aren't talking about deposits, we're talking about sending the bitcoin from the BT account to the people who placed withdrawals. Sending from their wallet, not receiving on their wallet. |
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I just got banned. Again. And got verbally attacked by what is presumably a sock puppet because I mentioned that they're not very professional to users who were requesting more frequent updates (1 update a day is not acceptable when folks have thousands invested). They promised that everything would be handled in 48 hours. We're past 72 hours now.
All transfers from BTC to other currencies are blocked.
The Michael B mysteriously went on "vacation" the day that everything went down.
I feel the worst for the one guy who was posting a day or two ago who had 20,000 USD invested who was in a full on panic.
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latest news from their FB page is : The server Blockchain download is still ongoing. Bitcoin withdrawal requests will be completed soon. Thank you for your patience. What makes no sense is sending a payment doesn't require you have the blockchain fully downloaded and updated. You just have to broadcast the transaction. |
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Just want to throw my hat in that Lyth0s has been great to work with!
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Order placed yesterday for 100GH/s of genesis, and 15MH/s of Solo multi pool (accidentally bought the wrong one, intended to get zenpool).
Waiting for a payout and successful withdrawal today. Once that happens I'll probably be sinking 1k into zenpool hash lets.
Just got a PM: transaction received from Lyth0s. Fast and smooth. Thanks!
I'll be making a full on plunge today now that I've had a chance to see zenpool in action!
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Well, I just took the plunge a few minutes ago. I took the last bit of the remaining cash from selling my mining rig and picked up 1 100GH bitcoin SHA-256 hashlet, and 1 15MH multi scrypt hashlet (I'd intended to get the zenhashlet but I forgot to switch back when I changed my order... they really need to get away from the color coding because it's easy to get confused). Total cost was about $~330 (minus the 1.5% i should get back from lythos).
So far I seem to be hashing, but nothing updating about bitcoin/dollars earned. We'll see what it looks like tomorrow. They seem to be a far more reputable company than bitcoin-trader.biz so I'll probably stop my reinvestment there and start to pump it into GAWMiner if it works out. Or split between both. Either way, it's cool to have a diverse set of options. I've already made back all of my money from my original mining rig, so now it's just trying to keep the bitcoin I have floating around earning me more money.
I also like the fact that I have the option to sell back at just about any time.
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As of writing this the page is up again I was requested to come here ans ask BT representatives some questions. I think this is a nice chance to finally get an answer on some stuff I've been pointing out for months now. First of all, I feel like there is not enough effort being put on proving that the company is actually generating profit. I know there are two options to invest the pool and arbitrary trading. BT has no excuse about not showing public proof about either of those and I'll tell you why. First of all, if you own mining equipment that is pointed toward a pool, you can just show people the address that you collect the coins at or alternatively to show a picture of the rigs (if BT is the owner of them). Now it's a bit harder that there's indeed profit from trading, but you can at least show your users the trades. I'm sure that you're already aware how big traders prove to their investors that their profit is indeed being generated from trades. Since all of your investors come online to check their investments this would be even easier for BT. Instead of just following the Cristine Madoff tactic and only showing trading results, you could also show them the trades that resulted to the daily profit. Some traders have used twitter as a platform for recording their trades and using it for future proof. (You'd need to do this in life time, so maybe a bot connected to your trading accounts would be better.) So there you have it, ways to prove that both your investing options are not ponzis. What's your excuse for just presenting the end of the day results? Also, why is there a shadowscripts logo in BT's about page? You know those guys sell HYIP scripts right?  So far we are doing an audit that will be done by end of August. We have tried some of your other suggestions but got criticized that we photoshoped pictures and faked the trading results. The company has decided that the audit is sufficient proof. As for the programming and software: They used a suitable program that works for the intended purposes. What others use it for is none of our business. That's like saying law enforcement cant use guns because guns are used by criminals,so anyone who uses guns must be criminals. We are doing all we can to prove to people that we make money in the way we say we make money,and hopefully that is enough. Thank you for the suggestions,though,I appreciate that you do not go into attack mode  You know, I keep seeing people state that some ethereal photo exists that people claimed was photoshopped, and yet, with this post that has been around for over 8 months, of which I have read every single post - not a single copy of the said photo have ever surfaced. So, I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure that claim is bullshit. Why don't you post it, I mean, if people already think it's photoshopped, it won't hurt, right? Who wants to put odds on an excuse why they won't  |
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Welp, it appears that they have posted their official company registration info, with folks able to verify with the Panama business registry. Still waiting on an audit to prove their solvency. FULL TRANSLATION OF THE DOCUMENT:
No. of Listing: 840,485
Document No.: 2648948
Name of the Company: Bitcoin TRADER HOLDING INC.
Tomo: 0 Page: 0 Seat: 0
Registration Date: 08/04/2014 Status: IN FORCE
No. Writing: Writing 20566 Date: 07/30/2014
Notary: 43
NOTARIA TENTH CIRCUIT
Notary Province: PANAMA
Duration: PERPETUAL Address: PANAMA
Status of the Garment (DEF-FINAL PRE-PRELIMINARY)
Data 1a. Flat Rate
Ballot: 1400130525 Payment Date: 07/31/2014
Resident Agent: NANCY ORANTES
Data Journal
Tomo: 2014 Seat: 142753
Microfilm Facts
Roll: 0 Picture: 0
Currency: American dollars.
Principal Amount: 10,000.00
Capital
SHARE CAPITAL OF THE COMPANY IS DIVIDED INTO TEN HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS
SHARES THAT MAY BE REGISTERED OR THE INTERCHANGEABLE CARRIER A
AS FOR THE OTHER A REQUEST FOR ALL YOUR DREAM WITH A NOMINAL VALUE
HUNDRED DOLLARS EACH.
Legal Representative
THE LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE OF THE COMPANY IS THE PRESIDENT COULD
EXERCISE THAT ALSO BY THE SECRETARY OR TREASURER OR
PERSON APPOINTED BOARD WITH THIS PURPOSE.
Title name Dignitary Dignitary
PRESIDENT JOHN CARLEY
TREASURER EDGAR ROSE
SECRETARY EDGAR ROSE
Name of Directors
JOHN CARLEY
EDGAR ROSE
CARLOS ECHEVERRIA
Name of Subscribers
NANCY ORANTES
MARIANA ORTEGA
Job Details
Dissolution, Bankruptcy, Fusion, Redomicilio Provisional or Definitive Transformation
Rollo: Image:
Micro-Date:
Data Journal
Tomo: Seat:
Writing Data
Number: Date:
Notary: State:
Exchange Act: And The company has as objectives and purposes the following: a) The performance of any commercial or financial transactions, sale or provision of services, mainly through electronic commerce. “Bitcoin Mining”, acquisition and crypto currency exchange and related services. b) and c) are standard clauses that we can buy and lease real estate and and own or hold shares of other companies. d) To engage in the purchase, sale and trade of corporate shares, bonds, and securities of any type or description. e) to act as an agent on behalf of natural or juridical persons. f) The promotion and/or participation, passively or actively in investment projects or investments of any other nature. And some other non relevant provisions.
Signed by Luisa A. Villareal, Chief Reg |
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Ugh. Said I was going to bow out of this thread after making my point repeatedly and crossing swords with that vile idiot yonce. But it won't go away from my 'new replies'.
I wouldn't take that bet, even if I did bet, and I am almost certain it is a ponzi. I don't get why people think the regular payouts give it any kind of legitimacy. They don't. Ponzis carry on, paying out nicely, until they don't. Then it all falls apart overnight. What determines how long they keep going is 1) how many more people get signed up and 2) how fast they pay out the new money this brings. 120 more days is quite possible.
Does anyone have any idea about 1? It only takes one $50,000 'investor' to allow them to play for time for quite a while if most people are testing the water with $20 or $100.
And has anyone tried blockchain analysis to try to figure out where the money is coming from, if exchanges are even involved at any point?
Here's one last thing to think about. IF it's a ponzi, then you can expect the people running it to be dishonest in more than one way. That's not a stretch, right? Well, they have your email address, and your password. And lots of people reuse passwords. So if you're not 100% confident these guys are as pure as the driven snow, you might want to change that password.
EDIT: the payouts of finished contracts don't fundamentally alter things. Sure it's a bit more they've got to cover, especially if a whale is cashing out. If - it looks like plenty of people reinvest because oh, it's proven itself now. If they do cash out, it just means they have to sign up a few more people.
LOL 'vile idiot yonce' - I had my run-in's with that fool also...... makes me laugh you call him a vile idiot. Now he seems to have disappeared. I wonder if he pissed the wrong person off?!?! I understand the 'official ponzi' of which he was an administrator collapsed. Though I think his narrative is a little different... it seems he acted impeccably throughout and was stitched up, or something. Yonce's attitude was that ponzis are fine, assuming that his downlines are only other people who know it's a ponzi. Which is a little bit like selling guns to drug dealers, but not actually shooting anyone yourself. Can't say I miss him. Eh, kind of I guess. I do agree with what he was saying somewhat. If it's a ponzi, and everyone knows it is a ponzi, then it's more like a casino. At some point the buck will stop and someone will lose. So long as they're aware that that possibility was there, egg on their face. I remember when dogecoin was new you used to see moneybomb sites all over the place where you pay N doge to buy a "bomb" that had a timer, and then you refer a bunch of people. Then when someone pays in, they get to hold "the bomb" and you get your money back plus a bonus from the buyer. At some point the timer ran out and "boom," the person holding it lost everything. That's basically the same thing as a ponzi. The next person pays for the previous person, until one day there isn't a next person. Then the guy who is holding it loses everything. There's nothing wrong with the game so long as everyone involved knows that those are the rules of the game, you know? Yonce had some decent points, but his presentation sucked BFDD. |
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"housemarket is not a ponzi, its inflation driven"
Interesting way of putting it. Would that mean that from 2008 to 2009 US had negative inflation in the order of 60%?
Negative inflation would be "deflation." Deflation, like in deflationary. That's good, right? It really depends on what economist you talk to whether inflation or deflation are a "good" thing. There's actually a good bit of evidence showing that very minimal inflation is good (>=~1%). It gets people to buy things rather than continually waiting for prices to go down. In this forum, this opinion, shared by about 95% of economists...will cause you a lot of agressive replys. Btw: what is good or not for a specific economie depends realy on many other factors. Economies try to not find out how deflation would affect their specific situation... because when a deflation is negative it turns desasterous.....inflation is just better to control Lol, noted. I'm not too concerned. I have pretty thick skin from years of BBS's, newsgroups, and forums Thanks for the heads up though!! |
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"housemarket is not a ponzi, its inflation driven"
Interesting way of putting it. Would that mean that from 2008 to 2009 US had negative inflation in the order of 60%?
Negative inflation would be "deflation." Deflation, like in deflationary. That's good, right? It really depends on what economist you talk to whether inflation or deflation are a "good" thing. There's actually a good bit of evidence showing that very minimal inflation is good (>=~1%). It gets people to buy things rather than continually waiting for prices to go down. |
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Arbitrage is supposed to be pretty much risk free, that's the whole point of it.
Being exposed to a trading loss means that one leg of the arbitrage is being opened or closed at a different time to the other, so effectively they would be "pair" day trading, speculating that the difference between two markets would increase/decrease in their favour over the course of a trading period.
That's not arbitrage, that's conservative day trading, which is presumably why they refer to a 3% stop loss.
FYI, maybe I'm correct about this, but for folks who are doing actual arbitrage, I'd take the 3% stop loss as a slightly-incorrect way of saying that on any particular arbitrage opportunity, they never commit more than 3% of current assets. That way if it goes south, that's all they've exposed to a potential loss. Sort of like the forex trading advice that you never commit more than 2% of your total assets to a particular trade unless you REALLY know what you're doing. If it goes completely sour, you can always say you've still got everything else. I've tried to get more info from BT if that's what they meant, but I think they stop responding to anything I ask. |
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I posted about them not posting the update the day they said they would (yet again): Exactly. It is incredibly unprofessional to state a date at which you will do something and not meet that date. You guys keep telling us to trust you, but not being able to trust you will meet times you yourself set doesn't really give us a reason to do that.  Their responses: Look Matty Sarro, the audit will be done by a HIgh Street firm from London. We don't have a date when the audit will be performed, but they confirmed that it will be done in August. Are we opening a can of worms now? Matty Sarro , you can't place words in our mouths and say we didn't get to it. Michael Brandenburg promised an update which he has given. You want to cause trouble or do you want results? From me: I want a reason to trust the people who are holding my money. Constantly saying you will provide an update and then either saying "sorry we decided not to release info" or "I didnt talk to John" is getting old. I'm not starting trouble. I am saying that for people who keep asking for trust you really suck at earning it.
Hell, even if you guys are a legit company, how the hell do you operate if you can't meet deadlines you set?
When do you guys think you will ACTUALLY provide information that isnt just "keep waiting"? Their response: Listen Matty Sarro. End of August everything will be on paper. So please be patient. You have a deadline now....and proof thereof. So if you bring up the subject again I will ban you from this group. my response: Threatening your customers. Great PR there Lou. They are now threatening to ban people who point out that they have not hit any one of the deadlines for their information disclosures. I think this speaks for itself. |
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