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Author Topic: Flat Earth  (Read 1071687 times)
joerogers8
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October 29, 2018, 08:16:43 PM
 #12921

The theory of an invisible magical force doesn't need proof? You're all fucking insane, there's no reason here just mad men pushing a giant lie and conspiracy.

What is your definition of proof of existence? If we assume that it exists, all things make sense. If we assume that it doesn't exist, nothing that relies on it existing works anymore. I can say that gravity, however you want to define it, will always do the same thing we expect it to. Whether you want to call it gravity or ytivarg, it doesn't matter, it exists because there is no proof that it doesn't exist. Maybe you are right, and what we call gravity is actually some mysterious force + some effect due to ether or whatever, but those components will equal what we consider gravity. So until a more accurate model is found, we'll call it gravity and it'll be an acceleration of 9.80m/s^2 at the sea level.

I can tell you with 100% certainty, that a 32 mile wide thermonuclear reaction 3,000 miles away would destroy the earth, so that is why I don't believe the sun is the size or distance you claim, not because someone told me. If you set up solar panels, you can get an amount of power from them. That power is very closely related to the ~1400w/m^2 that we get from a sun considered 93 million miles away.


My greater point is, if you are going to claim there is no gravity, or that the sun is 3,000 miles away, please explain how that holds true to what we can observe or predict with some sort of consistency. Put the pieces together for us, and if it holds, it holds. Keep in mind, that if you change assumptions about gravity or the distance from the sun, you can't make the same assumptions that the experiments that prove your point still hold true, so make sure you double check that. Describing something as a function of something else that you claim doesn't exist isn't great math.  I can claim the earth is a triangle, because you can go up. But until I unify that theory with proof, theres nothing to talk about.

On a side note, I mean, you could wait 10 years until a trip to space costs the same as a plane ticket to observe for yourself. Or just launch your own weather balloon with a camera for a whopping ~$300 cost.


*edit* Sorry, I didn't ask the real question here. So if gravity doesn't exist, what does?

Whats up Slaty

How do you know it's the earth rotation which causes things to fall at that rate?  I think we all agree that things fall at 9.81 m/s^2.  That's the how.  I think the why is being questioned.  Is it the spinning earth or something else?  I feel like we are getting caught up in the word gravity.  The more appropriate question is can it be proven that things are falling at that rate due to earths spin?

I don't think you can just launch a weather balloon to see the curve.  I have seen amateur footage that got to 120k feet.  The horizon raised to eye level and was flat.  I'm fairly certain you would need one hell of an elaborate setup to get to say double that height.  I for one would love to see if we could get a balloon up higher than say 300k feet.  Not sure if it would be high enough to see the curve or prove shape.  I would love to see the proof in this fashion as it would seal the deal for humanity.  I'm talking amateur scientists and enthusiasts replicating the experiment 1000's of times over not NASA or a govt space program.  

How do you know the sun is a thermonuclear reaction and not something else?

It's the same basic issue with the pressure gradient.  We know the pressure is there we can test it.  Why is the pressure there?  Can we prove it is the earths spin which allows us to have this pressure with no container?

Cool physics teacher and lesson here about air pressure.  (ignore the flat earther comments and enjoy the video and science)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spQ4d-0Q9-A
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October 29, 2018, 08:45:00 PM
 #12922

How do you know it's the earth rotation which causes things to fall at that rate?

Aside from minuscule centrifugal force Earth's rotation doesn't have much effect on how things fall. Things would still fall if Earth was not rotating.

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October 29, 2018, 08:54:14 PM
 #12923

Whats up Slaty

How do you know it's the earth rotation which causes things to fall at that rate?  I think we all agree that things fall at 9.81 m/s^2.  That's the how.  I think the why is being questioned.  Is it the spinning earth or something else?  I feel like we are getting caught up in the word gravity.  The more appropriate question is can it be proven that things are falling at that rate due to earths spin?

I don't think you can just launch a weather balloon to see the curve.  I have seen amateur footage that got to 120k feet.  The horizon raised to eye level and was flat.  I'm fairly certain you would need one hell of an elaborate setup to get to say double that height.  I for one would love to see if we could get a balloon up higher than say 300k feet.  Not sure if it would be high enough to see the curve or prove shape.  I would love to see the proof in this fashion as it would seal the deal for humanity.  I'm talking amateur scientists and enthusiasts replicating the experiment 1000's of times over not NASA or a govt space program.  

How do you know the sun is a thermonuclear reaction and not something else?

It's the same basic issue with the pressure gradient.  We know the pressure is there we can test it.  Why is the pressure there?  Can we prove it is the earths spin which allows us to have this pressure with no container?

Cool physics teacher and lesson here about air pressure.  (ignore the flat earther comments and enjoy the video and science)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spQ4d-0Q9-A

Well earth's rotation doesn't cause things to fall, earth is just an inertial reference frame for when that matters. Gravity is described as a force of attraction between any two objects with a distance between them and mass. Your chair is exerting a gravitational force on you, you are exerting a gravitational force on your dining table. As we talked about before, this force can be modeled by the equation F=-GMm/r^2 where G is that tiny constant, and M and m are the masses of the two objects, r is the distance between them. When we talk about gravitational forces, because G is 6.67x10^-11, the calculable force is essentially 0 if the product of your masses aren't on an order of magnitude to make up for multiplying by such a small constant, or if your radius is sufficiently large.

the moon, the sun, all of the other planets in the solar system, halie's comet, that 7-11 down the street, they all exert gravitational forces on you. However, 1) The moon/sun/other planets are far enough away that the force is negligible. The 7-11's mass is small enough that the force is negligible.

I didn't actually know the height you needed to be to witness the curvature of the earth, apparently the answer is just a little over 10km, and you can see it from an airplane on a relatively nice day. Thats just what a google search result yielded, so I wouldn't stake my life on it. But the answer should be easy enough to prove just by taking a look the next time you have a nice flight.

There are a lot of products from nuclear fusion that we get here on earth from the sun. Heat, light, EM and other types of radiation. The reaction on the sun is the same as the fusion reactions that we've created on earth. We can measure the products that are reaching the earth, such as light/heat, radiation/neutrinos, and observe the electromagnetic radiation that causes solar flares and other neat things.

"It's the same basic issue with the pressure gradient.  We know the pressure is there we can test it.  Why is the pressure there?  Can we prove it is the earths spin which allows us to have this pressure with no container?"

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but where is there? We do have a container so to speak. Our container is the atmosphere around the earth. Various forces including gravity keep the atmosphere around the earth.

For the sake of transparency, I'm mostly working off of Newtonian physics. Newtonian physics is accurate enough to launch a space ship, but if you get a room full of physics nerds together, someone will mention that there are other factors in play. Newtonian physics still holds true, it'll get you 99.999% accurate results in almost all cases. When people wondered where the .001% error was coming from, that's when Modern physics with relativity comes into play. I don't mind including that, but it'd take a lot more time than I may need to if we are just talking about observable things.


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October 29, 2018, 09:08:53 PM
Last edit: October 29, 2018, 09:44:38 PM by joerogers8
 #12924

Whats up Slaty

How do you know it's the earth rotation which causes things to fall at that rate?  I think we all agree that things fall at 9.81 m/s^2.  That's the how.  I think the why is being questioned.  Is it the spinning earth or something else?  I feel like we are getting caught up in the word gravity.  The more appropriate question is can it be proven that things are falling at that rate due to earths spin?

I don't think you can just launch a weather balloon to see the curve.  I have seen amateur footage that got to 120k feet.  The horizon raised to eye level and was flat.  I'm fairly certain you would need one hell of an elaborate setup to get to say double that height.  I for one would love to see if we could get a balloon up higher than say 300k feet.  Not sure if it would be high enough to see the curve or prove shape.  I would love to see the proof in this fashion as it would seal the deal for humanity.  I'm talking amateur scientists and enthusiasts replicating the experiment 1000's of times over not NASA or a govt space program.  

How do you know the sun is a thermonuclear reaction and not something else?

It's the same basic issue with the pressure gradient.  We know the pressure is there we can test it.  Why is the pressure there?  Can we prove it is the earths spin which allows us to have this pressure with no container?

Cool physics teacher and lesson here about air pressure.  (ignore the flat earther comments and enjoy the video and science)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spQ4d-0Q9-A

Well earth's rotation doesn't cause things to fall, earth is just an inertial reference frame for when that matters. Gravity is described as a force of attraction between any two objects with a distance between them and mass. Your chair is exerting a gravitational force on you, you are exerting a gravitational force on your dining table. As we talked about before, this force can be modeled by the equation F=-GMm/r^2 where G is that tiny constant, and M and m are the masses of the two objects, r is the distance between them. When we talk about gravitational forces, because G is 6.67x10^-11, the calculable force is essentially 0 if the product of your masses aren't on an order of magnitude to make up for multiplying by such a small constant, or if your radius is sufficiently large.

the moon, the sun, all of the other planets in the solar system, halie's comet, that 7-11 down the street, they all exert gravitational forces on you. However, 1) The moon/sun/other planets are far enough away that the force is negligible. The 7-11's mass is small enough that the force is negligible.

I didn't actually know the height you needed to be to witness the curvature of the earth, apparently the answer is just a little over 10km, and you can see it from an airplane on a relatively nice day. Thats just what a google search result yielded, so I wouldn't stake my life on it. But the answer should be easy enough to prove just by taking a look the next time you have a nice flight.

There are a lot of products from nuclear fusion that we get here on earth from the sun. Heat, light, EM and other types of radiation. The reaction on the sun is the same as the fusion reactions that we've created on earth. We can measure the products that are reaching the earth, such as light/heat, radiation/neutrinos, and observe the electromagnetic radiation that causes solar flares and other neat things.

"It's the same basic issue with the pressure gradient.  We know the pressure is there we can test it.  Why is the pressure there?  Can we prove it is the earths spin which allows us to have this pressure with no container?"

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but where is there? We do have a container so to speak. Our container is the atmosphere around the earth. Various forces including gravity keep the atmosphere around the earth.

For the sake of transparency, I'm mostly working off of Newtonian physics. Newtonian physics is accurate enough to launch a space ship, but if you get a room full of physics nerds together, someone will mention that there are other factors in play. Newtonian physics still holds true, it'll get you 99.999% accurate results in almost all cases. When people wondered where the .001% error was coming from, that's when Modern physics with relativity comes into play. I don't mind including that, but it'd take a lot more time than I may need to if we are just talking about observable things.



What then causes this attraction if its not the spin?
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October 29, 2018, 10:07:12 PM
 #12925

What then causes this attraction if its not the spin?

There is a more complicated answer regarding a mass' tendency to want to move through space time as time increases as measured by an ever increasing global entropy, but thats not super intuitive. Newtonian physics states that all objects have attractive forces towards one another, they are just typically so small that they are insignificant, unless you are talking about masses relative to planets. The Newtonian version of gravity works in all cases that I can think of, except with massively dense objects like black holes.
If the centripetal acceleration of earth was responsible for gravity, it wouldn't explain the gravitational forces felt on the earth by, say the moon for example. Its not very large, but it is at least measurable.

Of course the caveat that comes with that is what I've been saying all along, physics isn't perfect. Newtonian physics got us 99.999% of the way there. Relativity got us 99.999999% of the way there. And there are still some unaccounted for holes in certain problems. The holes aren't large enough to justify a flat earth, but maybe by looking at the holes from a different lens, such as if the earth were flat, you might be able to find some of those missing links.

I'd recommend looking up a relativistic model of gravity, but unless you are good with non euclidean geometry and multivariable calculus, using a fourth or fifth dimension, which isn't super intutitve, you probably won't find the sort of absolute proof that others here are looking for.

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October 29, 2018, 10:34:31 PM
 #12926

^^^ He doesn't have an answer, he's delusional and insane. What kind of rational person claims the theory they champion doesn't need to be proven? He literally believes in a magic force that's so sacred and divine, to question it is blasphemy.

I can answer why things fall using existing and proven physics such as density, buoyancy and the coulomb force. I claim that the lights observed in the sky such as the Sun, Moon, stars and planets are just that, lights in the sky. He claims that the lights are heavy balls, some that are terrestrial worlds you can visit and others that are giant bombs that never stop exploding millions of times larger than the Earth. His answer for this madness is more heavy balls in a shed, heavy balls proves heavy balls and he doesn't need to explain why because its magic and divine.
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October 29, 2018, 11:41:07 PM
 #12927

^^^ He doesn't have an answer, he's delusional and insane. What kind of rational person claims the theory they champion doesn't need to be proven? He literally believes in a magic force that's so sacred and divine, to question it is blasphemy.

I can answer why things fall using existing and proven physics such as density, buoyancy and the coulomb force. I claim that the lights observed in the sky such as the Sun, Moon, stars and planets are just that, lights in the sky. He claims that the lights are heavy balls, some that are terrestrial worlds you can visit and others that are giant bombs that never stop exploding millions of times larger than the Earth. His answer for this madness is more heavy balls in a shed, heavy balls proves heavy balls and he doesn't need to explain why because its magic and divine.

I agree science has no real answer.  It's sophistry.  He is much better at science than the regular crew though!   In the end the most basic questions posed cannot be answered by him in a way in which we can observed, measured and repeated.  

Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.
Nikola Tesla

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October 29, 2018, 11:48:36 PM
Last edit: October 30, 2018, 12:01:37 AM by notbatman
 #12928

^^^ He doesn't have an answer, he's delusional and insane. What kind of rational person claims the theory they champion doesn't need to be proven? He literally believes in a magic force that's so sacred and divine, to question it is blasphemy.

I can answer why things fall using existing and proven physics such as density, buoyancy and the coulomb force. I claim that the lights observed in the sky such as the Sun, Moon, stars and planets are just that, lights in the sky. He claims that the lights are heavy balls, some that are terrestrial worlds you can visit and others that are giant bombs that never stop exploding millions of times larger than the Earth. His answer for this madness is more heavy balls in a shed, heavy balls proves heavy balls and he doesn't need to explain why because its magic and divine.

I agree there is no real answer given.  It's sophistry.  He is much better at science than the regular crew though!   In the end the most basic questions posed cannot be answered by him in a way in which we can observed, measured and repeated.  

Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.
Nikola Tesla




He threw in the towel in the middle of discussing Eratosthenes experiment because it required him to consider that the Sun was close and small. He literally couldn't get through one proof and had to quit just on the the thought of abandoning the heliocentric model. The only explanation I have for this irrational behavior is that he believes the NASA puppets hanging from wires are really flying in the heavens above us thus outer space must be real.
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October 30, 2018, 12:01:13 AM
 #12929

^^^ He doesn't have an answer, he's delusional and insane. What kind of rational person claims the theory they champion doesn't need to be proven? He literally believes in a magic force that's so sacred and divine, to question it is blasphemy.

I can answer why things fall using existing and proven physics such as density, buoyancy and the coulomb force. I claim that the lights observed in the sky such as the Sun, Moon, stars and planets are just that, lights in the sky. He claims that the lights are heavy balls, some that are terrestrial worlds you can visit and others that are giant bombs that never stop exploding millions of times larger than the Earth. His answer for this madness is more heavy balls in a shed, heavy balls proves heavy balls and he doesn't need to explain why because its magic and divine.

I agree there is no real answer given.  It's sophistry.  He is much better at science than the regular crew though!   In the end the most basic questions posed cannot be answered by him in a way in which we can observed, measured and repeated. 

Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.
Nikola Tesla




He threw in the towel in the middle of discussing Eratosthenes experiment because it required him to consider that the Sun was close and small. He literally couldn't get through one proof and had to quit just on the the thought of abandoning the heliocentric model. The only explanation I have for this irrational behavior is that he believes the NASA puppets hanging from wires are really flying in the heavens above us thus outer space must be real.

You have to admit this was still better than trying to explain to suchmoon (50+ times) that he didn't see the boat go behind the water curve while he was standing on the shore.  That one hurt my soul. 
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October 30, 2018, 12:01:52 AM
Last edit: October 30, 2018, 12:16:47 AM by notbatman
 #12930

It's not just him, every warm body pumped out by the system is absolutely certifiable. As for suchmoon we found out he chimps under pressure, and will deny the globe but only under the threat of death or the opportunity to pocket some money. BADecker is going down with the ship, he'll never repent. Vod will fold like a house of cards and deny ever believing in the globe.
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October 30, 2018, 02:04:55 AM
 #12931

I can answer why things fall using existing and proven physics such as density, buoyancy and the coulomb force. I claim that the lights observed in the sky such as the Sun, Moon, stars and planets are just that, lights in the sky. He claims that the lights are heavy balls, some that are terrestrial worlds you can visit and others that are giant bombs that never stop exploding millions of times larger than the Earth. His answer for this madness is more heavy balls in a shed, heavy balls proves heavy balls and he doesn't need to explain why because its magic and divine.

Again, you cannot, because the laws regarding buoyancy fall apart if you take gravity out of the equation. The proof that gravity exists, is that it works at every single point in the universe by the model we have. You cannot support your claim with facts that rely on the things you are trying to disprove. Honestly, I'm not interested in talking with you because you have yet to support any of your claims. I'd love to hear how you can answer why things fall with those three things, but you haven't said how, you just keep repeating yourself without providing any explanation.

I like Joe, being skeptical is great, Joe disagrees with me, but we are able to have a conversation regardless. Just saying, the sky is green, if it wasn't green, there would be balls in the sky, doesn't really help anyone.

I proved Eratosthenes experiment and how it concludes the earth is round. I did not prove how it falls apart in the case of the sun is 15 miles away, because you've given no explanation for why I should assume the sun is 30 feet in the sky. By your logic, I also failed to prove why the earth isn't a triangle.

Science has real answers, just because you can't understand the concepts doesn't make it false. If I don't believe that germs exist because the sun is so close that all of the ultraviolet radiation would kill them, that doesn't mean I won't get a cold. The burden of proof is on you, you have to prove that using only what you believe, you can more accurately model what will happen if we put it to the test.

Let me know what equations you are using, we'll perform the experiment and see the results. We'll then do it a million more times over 400 years, and see if it holds true in all cases. Thats what Physics is.

.FORTUNE.JACK.
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October 30, 2018, 02:52:11 AM
 #12932

I can answer why things fall using existing and proven physics such as density, buoyancy and the coulomb force. I claim that the lights observed in the sky such as the Sun, Moon, stars and planets are just that, lights in the sky. He claims that the lights are heavy balls, some that are terrestrial worlds you can visit and others that are giant bombs that never stop exploding millions of times larger than the Earth. His answer for this madness is more heavy balls in a shed, heavy balls proves heavy balls and he doesn't need to explain why because its magic and divine.

Again, you cannot, because the laws regarding buoyancy fall apart if you take gravity out of the equation. The proof that gravity exists, is that it works at every single point in the universe by the model we have. You cannot support your claim with facts that rely on the things you are trying to disprove. Honestly, I'm not interested in talking with you because you have yet to support any of your claims. I'd love to hear how you can answer why things fall with those three things, but you haven't said how, you just keep repeating yourself without providing any explanation.

I like Joe, being skeptical is great, Joe disagrees with me, but we are able to have a conversation regardless. Just saying, the sky is green, if it wasn't green, there would be balls in the sky, doesn't really help anyone.

I proved Eratosthenes experiment and how it concludes the earth is round. I did not prove how it falls apart in the case of the sun is 15 miles away, because you've given no explanation for why I should assume the sun is 30 feet in the sky. By your logic, I also failed to prove why the earth isn't a triangle.

Science has real answers, just because you can't understand the concepts doesn't make it false. If I don't believe that germs exist because the sun is so close that all of the ultraviolet radiation would kill them, that doesn't mean I won't get a cold. The burden of proof is on you, you have to prove that using only what you believe, you can more accurately model what will happen if we put it to the test.

Let me know what equations you are using, we'll perform the experiment and see the results. We'll then do it a million more times over 400 years, and see if it holds true in all cases. Thats what Physics is.

Why can't objects with a relative density greater than the surrounding air simply fall due to the fact the air cannot support that object?  Is there any object on earth, that has a greater density than air, not fall?  

I make no claim on why an object falls.  This is just a question.  My true answer on this is I cannot prove in any way shape or form why that object falls.  I just know how it falls and when it will fall (vs rise).  It does seem though 100% of the time if the object is denser than air it drops.  If the air is more dense than the object then up the object goes.

Is there an answer to this that does not involve radical ideas that cannot be practically demonstrated?  Once again if the answer is no these ideas cannot be practically demonstrated then it is what it is.  

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October 30, 2018, 04:25:04 AM
 #12933


Why can't objects with a relative density greater than the surrounding air simply fall due to the fact the air cannot support that object?  Is there any object on earth, that has a greater density than air, not fall?  

I make no claim on why an object falls.  This is just a question.  My true answer on this is I cannot prove in any way shape or form why that object falls.  I just know how it falls and when it will fall (vs rise).  It does seem though 100% of the time if the object is denser than air it drops.  If the air is more dense than the object then up the object goes.

Is there an answer to this that does not involve radical ideas that cannot be practically demonstrated?  Once again if the answer is no these ideas cannot be practically demonstrated then it is what it is.  


Well, one example I can think of is Ozone at the top of the atmosphere. It is more dense than oxygen gas, but its still up there. I also ask that you consider the case when there is no air, will everything fall? As I mentioned, our (slightly outdated) idea of gravity as a property of matter, is no more strange than Bill Nye's famous, "inertia is a property of matter." but no one has any problem with inertia. As a final thought, if the density of an object is the reason it falls or floats, why does density not effect the speed at which an object falls due to gravity? Lead is much more dense than a rubber ball, but they both fall at the same speed.

There is also something to note about gravity always only being in the -y direction, pointed towards the center of the earth. If it was just a matter of two objects being more or less dense than one another, there wouldn't be any vectors involved. So instead of 9.80 m/s^2 downward, an object falling at 6.9m/s^2 downward and 6.9m/s^2 to the left or right, would still fit the same scalar requirements for an object to be moving at 9.80m/s^2 since ratios of densities are not vectors. Gas exchange of water might also be something worth looking into. Oxygen on the surface of a lake goes down into the water, if it was just a factor of density, wouldn't the oxygen always rise up above the lake?

All of these ideas can be practically demonstrated, its just a matter of whether you have the equipment and understanding to do it. For example, I couldn't give you a practical way to prove a nuclear theory that requires a particle accelerator, without you having access to a particle accelerator. It seems a little silly to say that you wouldn't believe the concept unless you had a particle accelerator. This goes together with what I'm about to say. Of course I don't mind curiosity, more power to you if you'd like to perform your own experiments to better your own understanding, but why is it not acceptable to give the benefit of the doubt to people with expertise on the matter? (not me) I'm not an expert, someone who is an expert on astrophysics could probably explain gravity in 5 seconds in a way that'd make anyone understand. I don't go to a doctor and refuse to believe in penicillin because its inconceivable to me that mold could treat the clap. There have been guys for hundreds of years who have fought to prove things to themselves and everyone else. All it takes is one case where you point out what they proved was wrong, and you get a sack of money and a noble prize. Not really the authoritative group that stands to gain something by making people believe the earth is round.

Maybe you can clear this one up for me, what is the appeal to thinking there is some sort of conspiracy regarding physics? The whole basis of physics is that its just observing things so many times that you figure out how something works. When someone finds a flaw in physics, there isn't some massive cover up, the person gets a bunch of money, awards, and an equation named after them. I don't really care if you don't trust NASA, but how many space agencies are there?

Anyway, you guys are going about this all wrong. If you are going to propose a completely new theory, you need a uniform set of laws that describes everything that could possibly happen under the new system. If that sounds like a monumental and unfair burden to be placed, it is. I'd recommend going with finding something that isn't accurately described as it is now, and seeing if you can unify a new theory around that. I don't mean introducing some crazy variables, like air being made of lead or the sun being closer than a country across the Atlantic ocean. I mean, find something that you can observe that does not follow the existing law of physics, and use that to prove that theres a problem.

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joerogers8
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October 30, 2018, 05:55:59 AM
 #12934


Why can't objects with a relative density greater than the surrounding air simply fall due to the fact the air cannot support that object?  Is there any object on earth, that has a greater density than air, not fall?  

I make no claim on why an object falls.  This is just a question.  My true answer on this is I cannot prove in any way shape or form why that object falls.  I just know how it falls and when it will fall (vs rise).  It does seem though 100% of the time if the object is denser than air it drops.  If the air is more dense than the object then up the object goes.

Is there an answer to this that does not involve radical ideas that cannot be practically demonstrated?  Once again if the answer is no these ideas cannot be practically demonstrated then it is what it is.  


Well, one example I can think of is Ozone at the top of the atmosphere. It is more dense than oxygen gas, but its still up there. I also ask that you consider the case when there is no air, will everything fall? As I mentioned, our (slightly outdated) idea of gravity as a property of matter, is no more strange than Bill Nye's famous, "inertia is a property of matter." but no one has any problem with inertia. As a final thought, if the density of an object is the reason it falls or floats, why does density not effect the speed at which an object falls due to gravity? Lead is much more dense than a rubber ball, but they both fall at the same speed.

There is also something to note about gravity always only being in the -y direction, pointed towards the center of the earth. If it was just a matter of two objects being more or less dense than one another, there wouldn't be any vectors involved. So instead of 9.80 m/s^2 downward, an object falling at 6.9m/s^2 downward and 6.9m/s^2 to the left or right, would still fit the same scalar requirements for an object to be moving at 9.80m/s^2 since ratios of densities are not vectors. Gas exchange of water might also be something worth looking into. Oxygen on the surface of a lake goes down into the water, if it was just a factor of density, wouldn't the oxygen always rise up above the lake?

All of these ideas can be practically demonstrated, its just a matter of whether you have the equipment and understanding to do it. For example, I couldn't give you a practical way to prove a nuclear theory that requires a particle accelerator, without you having access to a particle accelerator. It seems a little silly to say that you wouldn't believe the concept unless you had a particle accelerator. This goes together with what I'm about to say. Of course I don't mind curiosity, more power to you if you'd like to perform your own experiments to better your own understanding, but why is it not acceptable to give the benefit of the doubt to people with expertise on the matter? (not me) I'm not an expert, someone who is an expert on astrophysics could probably explain gravity in 5 seconds in a way that'd make anyone understand. I don't go to a doctor and refuse to believe in penicillin because its inconceivable to me that mold could treat the clap. There have been guys for hundreds of years who have fought to prove things to themselves and everyone else. All it takes is one case where you point out what they proved was wrong, and you get a sack of money and a noble prize. Not really the authoritative group that stands to gain something by making people believe the earth is round.

Maybe you can clear this one up for me, what is the appeal to thinking there is some sort of conspiracy regarding physics? The whole basis of physics is that its just observing things so many times that you figure out how something works. When someone finds a flaw in physics, there isn't some massive cover up, the person gets a bunch of money, awards, and an equation named after them. I don't really care if you don't trust NASA, but how many space agencies are there?

Anyway, you guys are going about this all wrong. If you are going to propose a completely new theory, you need a uniform set of laws that describes everything that could possibly happen under the new system. If that sounds like a monumental and unfair burden to be placed, it is. I'd recommend going with finding something that isn't accurately described as it is now, and seeing if you can unify a new theory around that. I don't mean introducing some crazy variables, like air being made of lead or the sun being closer than a country across the Atlantic ocean. I mean, find something that you can observe that does not follow the existing law of physics, and use that to prove that theres a problem.

The Ozone example caught my interest but looks like its highly unstable and does not stay in the atmosphere for long and is constantly replaced by new ozone.  There are a lot of sites from mainstream science out there explaining why it does not sink.  

"Ozone is an unstable compound with a relatively short half-life (about 20 minutes). It does not stay in the atmosphere for long. It is continually being formed from ordinary oxygen in chemical reactions, and removed by ultraviolet light. So it doesn't really get the time and conditions to settle down."

Once again I'm a practical guy so take that info for what it's worth.  I have zero experience with Ozone at 6-10 miles up.  I can only imagine the conditions up there on any shape earth and have zero idea why the gases do what they do under those conditions.  Why does gravity not grab those heavier gases and bring them down?

--

On the why things fall at the same rate of speed I have no idea on the why.  I simply know how they fall.  I could never prove why they fall.  I wish I knew though!

--

Why is it not acceptable to give the benefit of the doubt to people with expertise on the matter?
If we all thought like that we should wrap this crypto thing up and trust the experts in finance, the central bankers!  F that noise.  Our "top" financial professionals are all thieves.  Remember, doctors were saying smoking was good to go back in the day!  Imagine if we all just took their word for that.  There is no way in hell I am trusting any of these "authorities" until I see proof.  

If we are talking real science there is no room for belief.  Claims need to be practically demonstrated (especially when it goes against our direct reality) and the people making them should be held accountable to prove their claims.  The water I use everyday finds it's level.  We build with spirit levels.  Saying that large bodies of water curve goes against every experiment I can do on my own that deals with water.  

I'm not coming up with a new theory.  I'm challenging the one that's been presented to me.  I do not claim the earth is flat, concave, 4d, 5d, spherical or dildo shape.  The only thing I'm claiming is I don't buy the current model as I see theories and stories which no one can practically prove to me that go against my reality.  

I love your responses!  I totally disagree with it all but you have sent me on an ozone quest + you helped me find an entire catalog of that Boston University physics professor on youtube.  I'm now watching with my son and it all stemmed from your  pressure gradient post.  So even though we probably will never agree on this thing until we can both send out our own cameras up 200k+ feet (at least) to get our independent visual proof I still like the back and forth.




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October 30, 2018, 08:06:16 AM
 #12935

Gravity is an unproven theory no matter how many volumes are written and pages of bullshit posted, it will never be proven because it is false and a conspiracy. There is no magic force!

Salty dude, you're so absolutly full of shit. You didn't prove anything in regards to Eratosthenes, at least I posted a photo that proves the Sun's rays are divergent. Empirical measurement with a sextant, you think I just pulled the distance to the sun out of my ass? You ended the discussion because you're a fucking loser.

You're all brainwashed chumps or liars, in either case it's mass delusion.
 
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October 30, 2018, 08:26:36 AM
Last edit: October 30, 2018, 08:39:33 AM by Vod
 #12936

I can answer why things fall using existing and proven physics such as density, buoyancy and the coulomb force

If you can prove density, then you have proved gravity!  Items are dense because they are pulled together via gravity.  Same with buoyancy.

Density isn't a force - it is a measurement.  How can a measurement move anything?

If you can prove buoyancy - then you have proved gravity.  Look the equation - specifically the "g".   Wink

Fb=p(fl)*V*g

Where
p(fl)=density of the fluid
V=volume of the object
g=force of gravity (9.8 m/s^2)

And you said there was no proof of gravity.  Silly guy.   Cool

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October 30, 2018, 09:34:14 AM
 #12937







"... Items are dense because they are pulled together via gravity. ..."







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October 30, 2018, 10:42:43 AM
 #12938

I can answer why things fall using existing and proven physics such as density, buoyancy and the coulomb force

So since those measurements rely on gravity in their base equations, I guess that means gravity is also a proven physical force, right?

I've been saying since day one you were a liar.  Thank you for finally proving it.  Smiley

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October 30, 2018, 11:15:09 AM
Last edit: October 30, 2018, 11:46:55 AM by —
 #12939

Different views of the enclosed World. (Air lock system)

North star is at end of Ursa Minor (red circle)
Blue line is Earths path trough the year, gold line moons path around earth over the course of the year


and turned 180° to spring (equinox) time centered.                 and 45° turn x,y and z




And 45°tilt exactly aliened blue and purple line (northern sky above purple line)



A head spinner, upside down, back to front and X at -23,5°
https://imgur.com/EcLBXiK

Thank you for not sending browny points, much appreciated.

4D Torus Earth https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5042249.msg46425670#msg46425670
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October 30, 2018, 11:30:35 AM
 #12940

I really don't think showing pictures will convince this liar in any way.  He will just post doctored photos.

You need to use his own words against him.  For a couple years he has claimed there is no proof of gravity, then suddenly in his last post he revealed there is.  Smiley

I'm into creating universes, smiting people, writing holy books and listening to Prayer Messages (PMs).
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