Palestine & israel? What do you think about that situation?

[hofor]

No of course I would not mind. חֵיפָה is one of many examples to cross my mind. April 1948. A city flattened on top of its thrown out civilians in every district. Do you want personal stories told by my best friend's grandfather?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa#Government

Not sure I follow. Which militia are you referring to again? Haifa is a place, not a militia.

The funny thing is, you should read the Arabic version. It is like it s talking about a parallel universe where things went VERY much different. Yet because one group speaks the language you do, what they say is truth. Consider maybe the other side is either severely mouth-gagged or dead.

I don't understand Arabic or Hebrew. The truth is determined by facts. Are you saying that Wikipedia is factually wrong?

And yes your second statement is very much absurd and not true at all. Without diplomatic reasons there is a slight chance you can go there either for you getting blocked by Arabian governments or theirs.

Would you mind elaborating? Why is my the statement absurd?

[1714646141]

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[redsn0w]

No of course I would not mind. חֵיפָה is one of many examples to cross my mind. April 1948. A city flattened on top of its thrown out civilians in every district. Do you want personal stories told by my best friend's grandfather?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa#Government

Not sure I follow. Which militia are you referring to again? Haifa is a place, not a militia.

The funny thing is, you should read the Arabic version. It is like it s talking about a parallel universe where things went VERY much different. Yet because one group speaks the language you do, what they say is truth. Consider maybe the other side is either severely mouth-gagged or dead.

I don't understand Arabic or Hebrew. The truth is determined by facts. Are you saying that Wikipedia is factually wrong?

I think he wanted to say you should read and heard their version in the original language, because the translation it 'always' a little bit different than the one in the original language.

[hofor]

I think he wanted to say you should read and heard their version in the original language, because the translation it 'always' a little bit different than the one in the original language.

I'm not really interested in anyone's version. I'm interested in the facts.

[bryant.coleman]

And they didn't expel the Palestinians in 1947. The large wave of Palestinian refugees was created in 1948, when Arabs attacked Israel in an attempt to wipe it out.

It will be wrong to say that the Arabs were not expelled. Most of the migration was forced. But at the same time, I would say that the same would have been the fate of the Jews, had they lost the war.

[hofor]

And they didn't expel the Palestinians in 1947. The large wave of Palestinian refugees was created in 1948, when Arabs attacked Israel in an attempt to wipe it out.

It will be wrong to say that the Arabs were not expelled. Most of the migration was forced. But at the same time, I would say that the same would have been the fate of the Jews, had they lost the war.

Some Arabs were expelled during the 1948 war. Others left of their own free will, in order to make room for the Arab armies so that they could more easily kill Jews. Others ran away in fear of retaliation. There are many different reasons why all those Arabs left Israel during the 1948 war.

Of course there were clashes before the 1948 war as well. Through 1947 hostilities increased, and there were many cases of Jews being under siege and attack by Arabs, and Jewish militia moving in to aid them. This often meant removing Arabs that were standing between the militias and the Jews that were under siege or attack.

[bryant.coleman]

Some Arabs were expelled during the 1948 war. Others left of their own free will, in order to make room for the Arab armies so that they could more easily kill Jews. Others ran away in fear of retaliation. There are many different reasons why all those Arabs left Israel during the 1948 war.

Yes. This happens frequently in warfare. As you say, there are many different reasons why all those Arabs left Israel. To their credit, the Jews can point out that some 20% of the Israeli population is still comprised of Arabs, while there are hardly any Jews in the Arab nations (before 1948, some 750,000 Jews used to live in these nations.

[lophie]

The truth is determined by facts.

No my friend. Truth is determined by the victor. You still live in the smokescreen they made since it is still a relatively recent history. But your grand kids will see it clear as sunlight. Same as "Islamic expansions" and "The crusades", It eventually became clear how all those were about greed and bloodthirst. Many monstrosities came out and now they are public knowledge. Palestine is a neighbouring country. People that fled and died there are our own neighbours and flesh and blood. I am sad to tell you that yes, TV and wikipedia fed you shit for a long time. There is WAR there for the past 60-70 years.

Is it justified to wage war on other people because they were originally kicked out of Europe? Blood is blood and they are ALL guilty.

[redsn0w]

I think he wanted to say you should read and heard their version in the original language, because the translation it 'always' a little bit different than the one in the original language.

I'm not really interested in anyone's version. I'm interested in the facts.

Aren't you interested to know the "source" in the original language? I'm also interested in the facts and I am still saying the israeli government invaded the palestinian land.

....

...

This is one of the fact that I am arguing here, there are a lot of other facts.

[J. J. Phillips]

u9y42, Thank you for posting a thoughtful piece in this thread. I've been lurking here reading both sides, and posts of your quality have been in short supply.

JJ Philips, some of your posts have also been high quality (when you're drilling down to analyze bias that underlies assumptions), but the way you talk down to and belittle people you don't agree with undermines your message. I hope you will take U9's message without feeling attacked for the purpose of continuing a productive discussion, because I'm looking forward to reading both of your posts as you fall on directly opposite side, and are both clearly knowledgeable and articulate. I just hope both sides remain civil, because I'm hoping to learn more and this discussion becomes wildly unworthy of following when either side is lobbing insults or being condescending.

I agree that u9y42's post was very good, and I will respond to it (probably in multiple parts). It was a big relief to see someone write such a post. Instead of ignoring what I'd said, u9y42 took the statements I claimed as true and presented counterevidence. People on this thread have been unable or unwilling to do this so far (except, to some extent, the Golden Dawn guy). I understand this is a difficult thing for most people to do. u9y42 probably was able to do this because he's followed the issue for a while, reading from different sources and reading historical information. If the rest of you want to someday be able to write a post like that, please, start reading -- and not just the things that you agree with.

I have been talking down to people and belittling them. Why? Let me tell you. Jew-hatred has been a serious issue for a very long time. Less than a hundred years ago six mllion Jews were systematically exterminated in Europe. There are people on this thread who openly deny this, and I suspect others on the thread who believe it's exaggerated. Most people in Western countries believe it happened, as do I. I suspect most people of the Islamic world either have never heard of it, or have heard it's a lie. That's the world today.

Some of those Jews escaped, and in some cases they escaped to a territory under British controlled territory (formerly part of the Ottoman empire) called Palestine. Some Jews had always lived there. Many other Jews had already immigrated to this territory before Europe's troubles, partly because Britain had promised a homeland for the Jews in the region in the Balfour Declaration.

Now instead of being described as immigrants fleeing persecution, people are pretending they rode in on tanks and started demolishing houses of peaceful people. Does Israel have tanks now? Yes. But that's not how they got there. They got the tanks after they arrived and after it became clear so many neighboring countries were determined to destroy them. After the neighboring countries failed (on multiple occasions) to destroy Israel, those neighbors continued to use the Palestinians as proxies to attack Israel.

Now we have people comparing modern Israelis to the Nazis. People are spreading one-sided propaganda and a cartoonish view of the history and of the situation.

Why is this happening? I honestly believe this is happening because a majority of the world hates Jews. They are determined to undermine Israel as a legitimate country so that someday when Israel is destroyed people can accept it -- even celebrate it. The world hates Jews so much it is actively trying to bring about a second holocaust, and justify it preemptively.

I'm not trying to convince you -- or any one else -- of this. However, if you believed you were watching this happen, how would you behave towards the people trying to preemptively justify a second holocaust? Would you try to reason with them? Convince them they're wrong?

The OP could've just made a spelling error when he wrote "israel" instead of "Israel," but if that were the case it would've been corrected. It's perfectly clear to me (and should be to everyone) that he does it on purpose. Why? I submit that he purposefully writes "israel" to push the idea that it isn't a legitimate country. And he's doing it because he wants it destroyed. How should I react to someone like that? To someone who spends his time on a forum attempting to justify and bring about a second holocaust? Given this view of him, I've been extremely fucking polite, trust me.

And that's just one minor example.

It's frustrating. I wish I could stop a second holocaust, but obviously I can't. I think it'll probably happen, and we'll see video of Muslims around the world celebrating, the way Palestinians celebrated on September 11. Western leaders will say it was Israel's own fault for not coming to an agreement.

And I'll get to work on nanorobots that invade and deactivate the testicles of humans.

[hofor]

The truth is determined by facts.

No my friend. Truth is determined by the victor. You still live in the smokescreen they made since it is still a relatively recent history. But your grand kids will see it clear as sunlight. Same as "Islamic expansions" and "The crusades", It eventually became clear how all those were about greed and bloodthirst. Many monstrosities came out and now they are public knowledge. Palestine is a neighbouring country. People that fled and died there are our own neighbours and flesh and blood. I am sad to tell you that yes, TV and wikipedia fed you shit for a long time. There is WAR there for the past 60-70 years.

Yes, there is war. Did I say there wasn't? The point is that there are clear and objective facts, and those are of interest to me. Mere opinions are not very useful.

By the way, Palestine is not a country, and it never was.

[lophie]

I have been talking down to people and belittling them. Why? Let me tell you. Jew-hatred has been a serious issue for a very long time. Less than a hundred years ago six mllion Jews were systematically exterminated in Europe. There are people on this thread who openly deny this, and I suspect others on the thread who believe it's exaggerated. Most people in Western countries believe it happened, as do I. I suspect most people of the Islamic world either have never heard of it, or have heard it's a lie. That's the world today.

Some of those Jews escaped, and in some cases they escaped to a territory under British controlled territory (formerly part of the Ottoman empire) called Palestine. Some Jews had always lived there. Many other Jews had already immigrated to this territory before Europe's troubles, partly because Britain had promised a homeland for the Jews in the region in the Balfour Declaration.

Now instead of being described as immigrants fleeing persecution, people are pretending they rode in on tanks and started demolishing houses of peaceful people. Does Israel have tanks now? Yes. But that's not how they got there. They got the tanks after they arrived and after it became clear so many neighboring countries were determined to destroy them. After the neighboring countries failed (on multiple occasions) to destroy Israel, those neighbors continued to use the Palestinians as proxies to attack Israel.

Now we have people comparing modern Israelis to the Nazis. People are spreading one-sided propaganda and a cartoonish view of the history and of the situation.

Why is this happening? I honestly believe this is happening because a majority of the world hates Jews. They are determined to undermine Israel as a legitimate country so that someday when Israel is destroyed people can accept it -- even celebrate it. The world hates Jews so much it is actively trying to bring about a second holocaust, and justify it preemptively.

I'm not trying to convince you -- or any one else -- of this. However, if you believed you were watching this happen, how would you behave towards the people trying to preemptively justify a second holocaust? Would you try to reason with them? Convince them they're wrong?

The OP could've just made a spelling error when he wrote "israel" instead of "Israel," but if that were the case it would've been corrected. It's perfectly clear to me (and should be to everyone) that he does it on purpose. Why? I submit that he purposefully writes "israel" to push the idea that it isn't a legitimate country. And he's doing it because he wants it destroyed. How should I react to someone like that? To someone who spends his time on a forum attempting to justify and bring about a second holocaust? Given this view of him, I've been extremely fucking polite, trust me.

And that's just one minor example.

It's frustrating. I wish I could stop a second holocaust, but obviously I can't. I think it'll probably happen, and we'll see video of Muslims around the world celebrating, the way Palestinians celebrated on September 11. Western leaders will say it was Israel's own fault for not coming to an agreement.

And I'll get to work on nanorobots that invade and deactivate the testicles of humans.

You started to sound funny. You are so emotional about this cause. Are you of a Jewish heritage? Let me open your mind to your self refuting arguments. You condescending piece of shit. Yes that is the first time I openly insult someone like this on these forums. You openly belittle people on this thread and brag about it? Okay then I will throw your fucking argument back on your face.

No one here denies the Jews struggle in Europe, Not even the dead children and women in every invaded Palestinian village by the Jewish Army. I am here, one of the people who at least want to give the Palestanian peoples' struggle and ordeal some dignity and respect, Acknowledgement and understanding.

Put yourself in their shoes, any of them. For one second in your self-righteous life. A foreign entity put another foreign entity on their land and gave them guns and power. And they moved to take over the land by force. You ask people here to read? Have you read any? In fact, have you WATCHED any? This is something that happens every day for the past 70 years! and youtube is FULL of recent videos submitted by locals and news reporters. There stories are not from books and wikipedias. Those are our childhood friends and families and their sisters, fathers and mothers and relatives. I feel for every Jew back in europe at that time and understand thier struggle but that is not an excuse to drive a tank on my bedroom. Not an excuse to kill my child in my own hands (Mohammad Al Dorra - Video evidence everywhere as it was documented and broadcasted worldwide - ) The child was shot with his dad as they hugged on the street asking for bullets to stop. Israeli citizens march and march for a long time now asking the government to STOP

http://972mag.com/no-more-deaths-israelis-protest-the-gaza-war/94380/

Read, Even the Jewish people there recognise the massacres and injustices. You are literally what you mocked. You denied and ignored hundreds of thousands that were systematically exterminated. You openly deny their ordeal and suffering. You are pretending they brought flowers and asked nicely to improve the neighbourhood. why do some compare them to Nazis? Because the right to the land is thought to be a right given to them by god since the old testament and they are permitted to do that to ANY that are there. They use that as an excuse to drive a well trained well organized militia into villages and small towns for the past half a century. You are a hypocrite. Fuck you and wishing to stop another holocaust. We are wishing for all death and killing to stop, Not just for the Jews.

Many of the best people I am friends with are Jews, Even more are Palestanian. War is ugly and the people in power do not care in either sides. In the end only the weak suffers and buried

You are not on a higher moral or intellectual grounds, You are just another asshole. Shove "talking down to people and belittling them" and your reasons for that up your ass.

[abyrnes81]

The truth is determined by facts.

No my friend. Truth is determined by the victor. You still live in the smokescreen they made since it is still a relatively recent history. But your grand kids will see it clear as sunlight. Same as "Islamic expansions" and "The crusades", It eventually became clear how all those were about greed and bloodthirst. Many monstrosities came out and now they are public knowledge. Palestine is a neighbouring country. People that fled and died there are our own neighbours and flesh and blood. I am sad to tell you that yes, TV and wikipedia fed you shit for a long time. There is WAR there for the past 60-70 years.

I agree with you and they should find the peace.

Yes, there is war. Did I say there wasn't? The point is that there are clear and objective facts, and those are of interest to me. Mere opinions are not very useful.

By the way, Palestine is not a country, and it never was.

What about israel? If palestine wasn't a country then also isreal isn't a country.

[lophie]

The truth is determined by facts.

No my friend. Truth is determined by the victor. You still live in the smokescreen they made since it is still a relatively recent history. But your grand kids will see it clear as sunlight. Same as "Islamic expansions" and "The crusades", It eventually became clear how all those were about greed and bloodthirst. Many monstrosities came out and now they are public knowledge. Palestine is a neighbouring country. People that fled and died there are our own neighbours and flesh and blood. I am sad to tell you that yes, TV and wikipedia fed you shit for a long time. There is WAR there for the past 60-70 years.

Yes, there is war. Did I say there wasn't? The point is that there are clear and objective facts, and those are of interest to me. Mere opinions are not very useful.

By the way, Palestine is not a country, and it never was.

Okay, Lets start from there. What would you consider a country. Also considering the existence of natives in an area. What is accepted for you for a minority to start a country and how to deal with the existent natives? Lets see if Israel is one.

[hofor]

I think he wanted to say you should read and heard their version in the original language, because the translation it 'always' a little bit different than the one in the original language.

I'm not really interested in anyone's version. I'm interested in the facts.

Aren't you interested to know the "source" in the original language?

Source for what?

I'm also interested in the facts and I am still saying the israeli government invaded the palestinian land.

It is more accurate to say that the Arabs (Palestinians) attacked and tried to invade Israel. As a response, Israel was forced to make use of military occupation. Israel didn't even want to touch the West Bank originally. It was only after Jordan annexed it and used it to stage attacks on Israel that Israel was forced to occupy it in order to defend itself.

....
http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01285/israel_1285383g.jpg
...

This is one of the fact that I am arguing here, there are a lot of other facts.

It is not clear what you are arguing based on these maps. Care to elaborate? The facts behind the maps show that they are a result of Israel being forced to defend itself. You may notice how the West Bank and Gaza were occupied by Jordan and Egypt respectively as well. Another fact is that the map only shows part of the Palestine Mandate area. Why is Jordan not included? That is highly misleading, as it paints a false picture of how the area was divided. The Arabs already got the majority of the Palestine Mandate when Jordan was given to them a few years before Israel declared independence.

Any country on the planet in Israel's position would do the same thing. Or probably worse. Israel has shown amazing restraint at times. For example, they never even wanted to occupy the West Bank, but it then turned out that the area was key for attackers who wanted to destroy Israel. The Golan Heights even more so. Anyone who controls the Golan Heights will be able to target any part of Israel, and will put Israel at a huge strategic and military disadvantage.

[lophie]

The facts behind the maps show that they are a result of Israel being forced to defend itself.

It is funny how you expand by defending yourself. Epic logic. Especially calling this area of expansion "defending itself". Maybe the British colonization was also an act of self defend

[hofor]

What about israel? If palestine wasn't a country then also isreal isn't a country.

This is not true. Israel is a country - or an independent, sovereign state which gained independence in 1948.

Okay, Lets start from there. What would you consider a country. Also considering the existence of natives in an area. What is accepted for you for a minority to start a country and how to deal with the existent natives? Lets see if Israel is one.

See above. Israel is a country. Palestine is not (and never was). Do people really want to argue that Palestine is an actual sovereign state?

At the time when Jewish immigration to Palestine started the area was sparsely population, and it was not an independent state. It was simply an area which was under administration by someone else. There was plenty of available land, and Jews took advantage of that and settled peacefully in available areas. Eventually the British defeated the Ottomans and took over administration of the area. They then decided to give the population there control of the area. And so they wanted to give Arabs some land and Jews some land.

The bottom line is that there was plenty of available land, and the area was to be divided into various independent states anyway. And unless one has racist attitudes, it is only just that the Jews get their own state as well, and not just the Arabs (who already got Jordan as well).

It is funny how you expand by defending yourself. Epic logic. Especially calling this area of expansion "defending itself".

The allied forces occupied Germany during WWII. This was an act of self defense, after Germany had started a war. As I pointed out, military occupation is a perfectly legitimate way to defend oneself. Had the Arabs not attacked Israel, multiple times, Israel would not have been forced to defend itself.

Germany was also forced to hand over areas to other countries after WWII. The attacker lost land. But when Israel takes land from the attacker today, people are up in arms. This double standard is deeply troubling.

[abyrnes81]

What about israel? If palestine wasn't a country then also isreal isn't a country.

This is not true. Israel is a country - or an independent, sovereign state which gained independence in 1948.

The palestinian people tried to ask the independence to the UN but you know what is happen. They only want to oppress those people and you can't come here and say "Israel is a country - or an independent, sovereign state which gained independence in 1948." What the fu*k are you saying? Why they can't help them instead of kill them?

[J. J. Phillips]

@u9y42: Great post and thanks for writing it. I can only respond to part of it now, and will likely respond to other parts later when I have more time. Who knows how buried it will be by then.

[...]

I will say these two things:

(1) I believe most Israelis would like to find a solution to live in peace next to an independent Palestinian state that does not attack them. My evidence for this is Israel's history of making peace deals with neighbors and offering peace deals to various Palestinian representatives. ⁽¹⁾

(2) I believe most Palestinians will settle for nothing less than the utter destruction of Israel. My evidence for this is the history of intafadas, the creation and election of Hamas (who are explicit about their genocidal desires), suicide bombings, and rocket attacks. I think it will be extremely difficult for most Palestinians to ever accept Israel as a nation. ⁽²⁾ If you want to get a sense of how difficult it would be, just notice how difficult it is for you to accept Israel as a proper noun.

Given these two beliefs, it is not surprising I defend Israel, and I defend Israel's right to defend herself. ⁽³⁾ Probably most of you don't believe (1) or (2). I won't ask because I've already asked a lot of questions in previous posts and almost everyone ignores almost every one of them. This is not the way to advance any understanding of our positions. In the future, I reserve the right to reply to questions directed at me by repeating one of my previous questions that got ignored.

[...]

People refer to the "occupied territories" -- but this presupposes a certain view. Hamas believes all the land is occupied not just the "West Bank" and "Gaza." Regarding settlements being the problem, that argument would hold more weight if we didn't have the clear example of what happens when all the settlements are removed by Israel. This happened in Gaza. The reaction of the Palestinians was to elect Hamas, have an incredibly bloody civil war and then engage in years of rocket attacks into Israel. All while receiving sympathy and aid from around the world. ⁽²⁾

[...]

(1) - Oh, is that so? Well, let's see - Israel has just recently had an election, which has seen Netanyahu and his Likud party retain power - so, what options has Israel actually been pursuing these last few years in order to obtain peace? It certainly isn't the one state solution. Is it the two states solution, as you claim? Netanyahu seems to disagree with you; during the campaign, he stated: "I think that anyone who moves to establish a Palestinian state and evacuate territory gives territory away to radical Islamist attacks against Israel, [...] The left has buried its head in the sand time and after time and ignores this, but we are realistic and understand", and later, during that same interview, he added that, was the Zionist Union to win the elections, "'it would attach itself to the international community and do their bidding', including freezing construction in West Bank and East Jerusalem settlements, and cooperate with international initiatives to return Israel's borders to the 1967 lines". I should add that this was not the first time he expressed these views. In fact, and to be more accurate, since as far back as 1977, the Likud party's position has always been the denial of the right of a Palestinian state to exist - with only occasional divergence.

You make a compelling argument against the statement:

(IIPE) Israel wants an independent Palestinian state to exist.

But that's not what I asserted:

(1) I believe most Israelis would like to find a solution to live in peace next to an independent Palestinian state that does not attack them.

We're living in the aftermath of Arafat's rejection of the deal offered by Barak in 2000 and the subsequent launching of the Second Intifada. To be fair, the Second Intifada was launched as the result of Sharon visiting the Temple Mount, so lots of people blame that on Sharon (Israel). To be even more fair, the Palestinians launched an Intifada resulting in thousands of deaths because a politician visited a site, which can be blamed on the Palestinians.

The lesson that should be learned is that Arafat missed a generational opportunity to end the conflict. After refusing to come to an agreement with Barak and then launching the Second Intifada, it's not surprising that a significant percentage of Israelis do not believe the Palestinians actually want to live in peace next to Israel. This is the view expressed by Netanyahu. That doesn't refute my assertion (1). It only means they don't currently believe the Palestinians are willing to live in peace with Israel under any circumstances. A lot of evidence supports this idea. Maybe this will change, but it would take a cultural shift among Palestinian attitudes towards Israel. The way to refute (1) would be for us to have a hypothetical world in which Palestinians are not attacking Israel for a few years and are not teaching their children to hate Jews. In other words, (1) is really impossible to refute. Well, unless one believes Palestinians have not been attacking Israel or teaching their children to hate Jews.

I'll concede this: If there's a 5 year period when Palestinians are not attacking Israel and are not teaching their children to hate Jews, and Israel doesn't offer them a deal, then I'll start reconsidering my position.

At one point, among the items denied entry into the occupied territory were crayons, paper, books, clothing, newspapers, baby formula and a variety of other food products, and so on ...

I hope you'll forgive some skepticism, but I remember how people lied about the Turkish flotilla some years ago. Can you give me a source for these items being denied entry? Are they generally forbidden or are you referring to some specific shipment?

In fact, ever since 2006, Hamas has clearly stated that the issue of recognizing Israel wasn't their responsibility, but rather, to be left up to popular vote - a vote which they would abide by, even if the results went against their beliefs.

I'd like a source for this as well. It would surprise me if Hamas said this, but you seem well-informed. In any case, I think if such a vote among Palestinians to explicitly recognize Israel were held, it would fail in a landslide. If the Palestinians surprised me, I think we'd quickly find out Hamas was lying.

Now, I'm not going to defend their use of violence here - it's wrong when Israel does it, and it's wrong when Palestinians do it - but they hardly seem the irrational, genocidal actors you're trying to portrait most Palestinians to be; so, let's dig a little deeper...

While I do think most Palestinians are irrational and genocidal (comes from the culture), I don't think their position on Israel is irrational. I think they want the Jews dead. Their methods of acheiving this seem likely to be effective. From that point of view they are behaving rationally.

Finally, why is Israel opposed to the Palestinian move to seek international recognition, or even better, its efforts to join and seek legal action in the ICC? Surely, this is the right path: avoiding further violence, and seeking the punishment of war crimes - both Palestinian and Israeli war crimes. How is this a threat to Israel (assuming Israel does indeed want a two state solution as you had expressed above)?

First of all, the UN's Human Rights Council clearly shows how much "objectivity" Israel can expect from international bodies. I had a post earlier that outlined how different regions of the world have a history of Jew-hatred. I expect the ICC to reflect that. The UN refuses to condemn Palestinian actions, but is always ready to condemn Israel (e.g., "Zionism is racism.") The only power the US has at the UN is the ability to veto anti-Israel resolutions in the Security Council (see Negroponte Doctrine).

To put it bluntly: whenever Jews rely on non-Jews to protect them, the result is always a lot of dead Jews. Even in WW2 the Allies kept the holocaust secret because they didn't want their soldiers to think they were fighting to help Jews.

Well, then let me clear something up. I'm Canadian. I've never even visited Israel. I'm neither ethnically nor religiously Jewish. I never said I was Israeli or Jewish, but people on an earlier thread assumed it because I defended a Jew's right to walk through Paris unmolested. Clearly only a Jew would have such an opinion.

You're right that I'm very hateful though. I have a visceral hatred of Nazis. It bothers me intensely that people pretend to believe the Nazis were evil on a surface level while continuing to advance their beliefs. And most people are too fucking stupid to know they're doing it.

Again, please, don't take all criticism of Israel as ignorance, or antisemitism. You have to admit there are genuine issues that Israel needs to address, and that only it can address - and by that I don't mean Palestinians don't have their fair share of the blame in all this; of course they do. And again, the alternative to that is Israel will eventually find itself isolated and under sanctions; and despite what you might think, that is not something I want to see happen.

I don't think all criticism of Israel is based in ignorance or Jew-hatred*, but I think Jew-hatred plays a huge role.

If there were very little Jew-hatred in the world, the Arab-Israeli conflict would be considered about as important as the dispute over Kashmir or Cyprus.

* I tend to say "Jew-hatred" instead of antisemitism. Some years ago I found people were responding quickly to my use of the word "antisemitism" with the rote phrase "You know, the Palestinians are also semitic!" Then I read that "antisemitism" was a term devised by Germans to be a sterile scientific version of "Judenhass" (Jew-hatred).

Again, thanks for the post and I may respond to more of the specifics at a later time. One of the things I've tried to do in some of my posts is make some labelled clear unambigious statements that people could argue for or against. Thanks for doing this.

[J. J. Phillips]

You are so emotional about this cause. Are you of a Jewish heritage?

No, but everyone thinks this when I defend Israel. That's how deep the Jew-hatred goes. Most people think only a Jew could possibly defend Jews.

You denied and ignored hundreds of thousands that were systematically exterminated.

Are you asserting that Israel has killed "hundreds of thousands" of Palestinians? Or am I misunderstanding this?

You are not on a higher moral or intellectual grounds, You are just another asshole. Shove "talking down to people and belittling them" and your reasons for that up your ass.

OK, I'll be sure to do that. And if you ever get a time machine, please travel back to Dresden in mid-February 1945. I think you'd like the people there and I heard it was surprisingly warm for Wintertime.

[J. J. Phillips]

What about israel? If palestine wasn't a country then also isreal isn't a country.

This is not true. Israel is a country - or an independent, sovereign state which gained independence in 1948.

The palestinian people tried to ask the independence to the UN but you know what is happen. They only want to oppress those people and you can't come here and say "Israel is a country - or an independent, sovereign state which gained independence in 1948." What the fu*k are you saying? Why they can't help them instead of kill them?

The UN had a partition plan in 1947. The Palestinians rejected it.