Palestine & israel? What do you think about that situation?

[redsn0w]

Hi,

today in this thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1010473.0) we have raised again the discussion that iran wants to destroy israel and we have started to talk about the israelian & palestinian people.

Now I have opened this thread for ask you :

- what do you think of that situation? If your country would be invaded like Palestinan what would be your thought?

Thanks for the attention, and please don't turn this thread in a blame thread.

Have a great day.

[1714654602]

1714654602

[1714654602]

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[geforcelover]

Well simple is that isreal is the worst enemy of Muslims . You know too . if you see the passport of Pakistan you will see that the PAss port is valid for all countries expect Israel . however we will see a war soon . some people said that USA is also involed too but i dont know . they say that israel like countries (the enemies of Muslims ) wants to create fight among muslims . so they die fighting between . we see some fights between sunni and shia . the reason behind the fight is too obvious . however some peoples misguide the sunni about shia and shia about sunni . here is a screenshot .i found this on google . on the rigt side is shia and on the left sid is sunni and you see two hands coming behind both of them .

[saddampbuh]

the zionists must be the only people on earth who could settle in someone else's country and create a jewish majority country by expelling most of the original inhabitants and successfully fool much of the civilized world into calling those people terrorists when they try and defend themselves

[patt0]

the zionists must be the only people on earth who could settle in someone else's country and create a jewish majority country by expelling most of the original inhabitants and successfully fool much of the civilized world into calling those people terrorists when they try and defend themselves

Lol, no they aren't the only ones. The United States, Canada, Australia, and in part South Africa did the same. : /

@redsn0w it's hard to blame them but it would be better if the Palestinians found a way to resist that didn't include violence.
And I think they are now moving more in that direction, by joining the ICC, etc. I hope they manage to have their own state or at least that they are accepted with equal rights into Israel.

[jaysabi]

I think it's impossible for there to be peace. Both sides claim the land, both sides are willing to kill to have it, and both sides claim their right to the land is from their god. The problem is, there were people living there before Judaism and Islam became prominent, so I don't recognize either of them as having a more legitimate claim to the land over the other, and even less so when their justification is "because my god said so."

[patt0]

I think it's impossible for there to be peace. Both sides claim the land, both sides are willing to kill to have it, and both sides claim their right to the land is from their god. The problem is, there were people living there before Judaism and Islam became prominent, so I don't recognize either of them as having a more legitimate claim to the land over the other, and even less so when their justification is "because my god said so."

I don't think the problem is they claim the right to the land comes from somewhere else.
The problem is people already live in the land of the occupied territories and Israel keeps building more settlements there and expelling the Palestinians.
And I think the official position of the Palestinians is they accept the two state solution, but Israel doesn't and doesn't give any alternative. They just say they are negotiating, and keep on building more settlements and making the situation worse. : /

[jaysabi]

I think it's impossible for there to be peace. Both sides claim the land, both sides are willing to kill to have it, and both sides claim their right to the land is from their god. The problem is, there were people living there before Judaism and Islam became prominent, so I don't recognize either of them as having a more legitimate claim to the land over the other, and even less so when their justification is "because my god said so."

I don't think the problem is they claim the right to the land comes from somewhere else.
The problem is people already live in the land of the occupied territories and Israel keeps building more settlements there and expelling the Palestinians.
And I think the official position of the Palestinians is they accept the two state solution, but Israel doesn't and doesn't give any alternative. They just say they are negotiating, and keep on building more settlements and making the situation worse. : /

Perhaps I am mistaken, but my understanding was that Israel was "the promised land" that their god promised his "chosen people." That is how they justify the expelling of the Palestinians in 1947. Correct me if I do not have this correct.

[saddampbuh]

Lol, no they aren't the only ones. The United States, Canada, Australia, and in part South Africa did the same. : /

not the same because colonists in those places eventually granted the natives their rights whereas israel continues to disenfranchise arabs while portraying itself as a victim.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but my understanding was that Israel was "the promised land" that their god promised his "chosen people." That is how they justify the expelling of the Palestinians in 1947. Correct me if I do not have this correct.

most of the zionist founders weren't religious and israel has never officially recognised that any expulsion of palestinians took place let alone attempted to justify it. it maintains that they left of their own accord after invading arab armies told them to get out of the way and people actually believed this until the late 80s.

[patt0]

^ lol and how many centuries later was that? xD
Israel still has a lot of time then if that is your view.

I think it's impossible for there to be peace. Both sides claim the land, both sides are willing to kill to have it, and both sides claim their right to the land is from their god. The problem is, there were people living there before Judaism and Islam became prominent, so I don't recognize either of them as having a more legitimate claim to the land over the other, and even less so when their justification is "because my god said so."

I don't think the problem is they claim the right to the land comes from somewhere else.
The problem is people already live in the land of the occupied territories and Israel keeps building more settlements there and expelling the Palestinians.
And I think the official position of the Palestinians is they accept the two state solution, but Israel doesn't and doesn't give any alternative. They just say they are negotiating, and keep on building more settlements and making the situation worse. : /

Perhaps I am mistaken, but my understanding was that Israel was "the promised land" that their god promised his "chosen people." That is how they justify the expelling of the Palestinians in 1947. Correct me if I do not have this correct.

Maybe that is the way they justified it at the time, but the truth is they also need a land to live in, and they have other concerns too like security.
I don't think it means there can't be peace and that someone must be expelled, but I think other problems are the source and not religion.

[redsn0w]

....
@redsn0w it's hard to blame them but it would be better if the Palestinians found a way to resist that didn't include violence.
And I think they are now moving more in that direction, by joining the ICC, etc. I hope they manage to have their own state or at least that they are accepted with equal rights into Israel.

So how can they resist to that oppression? Because we can agree ... it is an unnecessary oppression. This was the first division (1974):



 

Now I don't want to talk about the zionist, but I know there are some israeli that are against the oppression to Palestine.

[jaysabi]

^ lol and how many centuries later was that? xD
Israel still has a lot of time then if that is your view.

I think it's impossible for there to be peace. Both sides claim the land, both sides are willing to kill to have it, and both sides claim their right to the land is from their god. The problem is, there were people living there before Judaism and Islam became prominent, so I don't recognize either of them as having a more legitimate claim to the land over the other, and even less so when their justification is "because my god said so."

I don't think the problem is they claim the right to the land comes from somewhere else.
The problem is people already live in the land of the occupied territories and Israel keeps building more settlements there and expelling the Palestinians.
And I think the official position of the Palestinians is they accept the two state solution, but Israel doesn't and doesn't give any alternative. They just say they are negotiating, and keep on building more settlements and making the situation worse. : /

Perhaps I am mistaken, but my understanding was that Israel was "the promised land" that their god promised his "chosen people." That is how they justify the expelling of the Palestinians in 1947. Correct me if I do not have this correct.

Maybe that is the way they justified it at the time, but the truth is they also need a land to live in, and they have other concerns too like security.
I don't think it means there can't be peace and that someone must be expelled, but I think other problems are the source and not religion.

They were all living some place before they came back and carved Israel out of Palestine. It doesn't have to be where it is now, but it is because they believe their god promised this land to them. Religion is the root cause. They don't want to live anywhere, they want to live on the magic land.

[redsn0w]

^ lol and how many centuries later was that? xD
Israel still has a lot of time then if that is your view.

I think it's impossible for there to be peace. Both sides claim the land, both sides are willing to kill to have it, and both sides claim their right to the land is from their god. The problem is, there were people living there before Judaism and Islam became prominent, so I don't recognize either of them as having a more legitimate claim to the land over the other, and even less so when their justification is "because my god said so."

I don't think the problem is they claim the right to the land comes from somewhere else.
The problem is people already live in the land of the occupied territories and Israel keeps building more settlements there and expelling the Palestinians.
And I think the official position of the Palestinians is they accept the two state solution, but Israel doesn't and doesn't give any alternative. They just say they are negotiating, and keep on building more settlements and making the situation worse. : /

Perhaps I am mistaken, but my understanding was that Israel was "the promised land" that their god promised his "chosen people." That is how they justify the expelling of the Palestinians in 1947. Correct me if I do not have this correct.

Maybe that is the way they justified it at the time, but the truth is they also need a land to live in, and they have other concerns too like security.
I don't think it means there can't be peace and that someone must be expelled, but I think other problems are the source and not religion.

They were all living some place before they came back and carved Israel out of Palestine. It doesn't have to be where it is now, but it is because they believe their god promised this land to them. Religion is the root cause. They don't want to live anywhere, they want to live on the magic land.

But they can live (the two population) in one land, the problem is they want to "find" common rules for live together in that land (call you as you like, palestine or israel). All we are world citizen, or am I wrong?

[J. J. Phillips]

My general impression is that the people who enjoy discussing this topic the most know the least about the long and complicated history. Here's a good resource:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/

Ask yourself a few questions and be honest with yourself about whether or not you know the answers:

When was Palestine a country?

Who controlled the terroritory before WWI?

Who controlled the terroritory after WWI? How did this change come about? What agreements were made and between what parties?

Why did the UN recognize Israel as an independent nation, but not Palestine? [This is a trick question.]

Many Palestinians evacuated Israel after Israel declared its nationhood. How many were forced out and how many followed the advice of neighboring Arab countries who clearly said they were going to invade Israel? Did those countries declare war on Israel? How many wars have Israel's neighbors waged on her?

Did Jews have equal rights living in Arab countries at the time? Were Jews pushed out of those countries after the establishment of Israel? If so, do they have a right to return to those countries?

Do Jews have equal rights living in Arab countries today?

People refer to the "occupied territories" -- but this presupposes a certain view. Hamas believes all the land is occupied not just the "West Bank" and "Gaza." Regarding settlements being the problem, that argument would hold more weight if we didn't have the clear example of what happens when all the settlements are removed by Israel. This happened in Gaza. The reaction of the Palestinians was to elect Hamas, have an incredibly bloody civil war and then engage in years of rocket attacks into Israel. All while receiving sympathy and aid from around the world.

Is Breslau occupied by the Poles?

Is Constantinople occupied by the Turks?

Why does a map showing a population shifting towards having more Jews indicate something nefarious, but maps showing other population growths do not? Has there been a growth in Muslim population in Europe in the past 40 years? Is there a problem with that?

There's a reason why there's a standard to which Jews and only Jews are held. It's something deep down. Something that survives centuries as a mental virus. It's the same thing that means there can be a thread with a participant as a swastika and the following signature:

The Jew is immunized against all dangers: one may call him a scoundrel, parasite, swindler, profiteer, it all runs off him like water off a raincoat. But call him a Jew and you will be astonished at how he recoils, how injured he is, how he suddenly shrinks back: “I’ve been found out.”

and it bothers no one. I give saddampduh credit though. He's honest about what he is.

But one thing, saddam, I am a living contradiction to your signature. Call me a Jew all you want. I have never denied it. I also wouldn't deny being black or gay, as there's nothing wrong with any of these things.

Even if people came to different conclusions than the ones I have, I just wish people would take some time to learn the basic history.

[saddampbuh]

When was Palestine a country?

none of the former european colonial possessions could be considered countries in the sense you're thinking of. this usually isn't used to justify denying people self determination in 2015.

Who controlled the terroritory before WWI?

Who controlled the terroritory after WWI? How did this change come about? What agreements were made and between what parties?

we took it from the turks and promised the jews a homeland there on the condition that nothing would be done to violate the rights of palestine's non jewish population. this commitment wasn't held to.

Why did the UN recognize Israel as an independent nation, but not Palestine? [This is a trick question.]

the palestinians rejected partition which they knew would result in the expulsion and/or disenfranchisement of a large part of their population. same reason they rioted a decade earlier when the peel commission decided some 200k of them would need to be deported for a zionist state to work

what zionist apologists never tell us is how a jewish state was supposed to be viable in 1947 with a 40% arab population when such a thing was understood to be impossible in 1937 and also in the present day where the large arab population on the west bank is cited as the reason there can't be a one state solution

Many Palestinians evacuated Israel after Israel declared its nationhood. How many were forced out and how many followed the advice of neighboring Arab countries who clearly said they were going to invade Israel? Did those countries declare war on Israel? How many wars have Israel's neighbors waged on her?

the question of how many refugees were directly driven out by zionist bullets and mortars and how many left to escape fighting after the arab armies invaded has no bearing on their right to return to their homes once the fighting is done.

if israel agrees to live within its proper borders and still gets attacked maybe someone somewhere outside right wing evangelical christian non passport owning america will feel sorry for it

Did Jews have equal rights living in Arab countries at the time? Were Jews pushed out of those countries after the establishment of Israel? If so, do they have a right to return to those countries?

pushed out after a wave of antisemitism swept the middle east which is just what the zionist leadership wanted. antisemitism has always been an essential component of zionism.

a right morally, possibly yes, but not happening just as the palestinian right of return isnt happening.

People refer to the "occupied territories" -- but this presupposes a certain view. Hamas believes all the land is occupied not just the "West Bank" and "Gaza." Regarding settlements being the problem, that argument would hold more weight if we didn't have the clear example of what happens when all the settlements are removed by Israel. This happened in Gaza. The reaction of the Palestinians was to elect Hamas, have an incredibly bloody civil war and then engage in years of rocket attacks into Israel. All while receiving sympathy and aid from around the world.

had barak dismantled the settlements when he was supposed to hamas wouldn't exist. polls consistently show a majority of palestinians would grudgingly live alongside israel within its internationally recognised borders despite the undeniable truth that all of palestine *is* occupied territory

Is Breslau occupied by the Poles?

Is Constantinople occupied by the Turks?

the wrong side won ww2 and i'm half greek so not gonna bother with this one

Why does a map showing a population shifting towards having more Jews indicate something nefarious, but maps showing other population growths do not? Has there been a growth in Muslim population in Europe in the past 40 years? Is there a problem with that?

the ratio of jews to arabs in historic palestine west of the river hasn't shifted which is why there's this weird semi apartheid system where palestinians inside israel itself enjoy some rights but the ones in israeli owned gaza and the west bank don't, and are at the same time denied the right to form their own state because more of their land might be needed for european and north american settlers. israel wants the land but not the people.

the muslim minority population in europe has become a problem now that it threatens to stop being a minority and actually overtake the host countries

There's a reason why there's a standard to which Jews and only Jews are held. It's something deep down. Something that survives centuries as a mental virus.

any normal person after being persecuted and expelled from 50 or whatever countries over centuries would eventually ask himself what he had done to be so disliked. for the jews and their supporters the answer is that the rest of the world must be mentally ill.

you're right about jews being held to a different standard to everyone else. they are allowed to talk openly about the need to preserve a jewish majority in their country, but when europeans talk about keeping britain british or france french we are evil racists who want to holocaust millions of brown people in poison gas showers

[YuKiang]

Read the fucking bible. That shitty book talks about history and future. History repeats itself.

Have a read on 4 blood moons.

Zion is going down.

[bryant.coleman]

the zionists must be the only people on earth who could settle in someone else's country and create a jewish majority country by expelling most of the original inhabitants and successfully fool much of the civilized world into calling those people terrorists when they try and defend themselves

Hmm... it is not the only country.... The winners of the war decides on which ethnic groups should be allowed to live in their territories and which ethnic groups should be expelled / exterminated. After the WW2, almost the entire ethnic German population in Eastern Europe was exterminated or deported to the present-day Germany. This has happened ever since AD 1492, when the Spaniards exterminated the Tainos / Ciboneys / Caribs and replaced them with migrants from Iberia.

[YuKiang]

Ask yourself, when/how/why was America discovered?
All hail Elisabeth.

[jaysabi]

^ lol and how many centuries later was that? xD
Israel still has a lot of time then if that is your view.

I think it's impossible for there to be peace. Both sides claim the land, both sides are willing to kill to have it, and both sides claim their right to the land is from their god. The problem is, there were people living there before Judaism and Islam became prominent, so I don't recognize either of them as having a more legitimate claim to the land over the other, and even less so when their justification is "because my god said so."

I don't think the problem is they claim the right to the land comes from somewhere else.
The problem is people already live in the land of the occupied territories and Israel keeps building more settlements there and expelling the Palestinians.
And I think the official position of the Palestinians is they accept the two state solution, but Israel doesn't and doesn't give any alternative. They just say they are negotiating, and keep on building more settlements and making the situation worse. : /

Perhaps I am mistaken, but my understanding was that Israel was "the promised land" that their god promised his "chosen people." That is how they justify the expelling of the Palestinians in 1947. Correct me if I do not have this correct.

Maybe that is the way they justified it at the time, but the truth is they also need a land to live in, and they have other concerns too like security.
I don't think it means there can't be peace and that someone must be expelled, but I think other problems are the source and not religion.

They were all living some place before they came back and carved Israel out of Palestine. It doesn't have to be where it is now, but it is because they believe their god promised this land to them. Religion is the root cause. They don't want to live anywhere, they want to live on the magic land.

But they can live (the two population) in one land, the problem is they want to "find" common rules for live together in that land (call you as you like, palestine or israel). All we are world citizen, or am I wrong?

Ah, but you see? You and I might agree we are all world citizens, but we have a different viewpoint. We may identify as humans first, the same as all others. Tribal identity clouds this. People who identify with a tribe create barriers to differentiate themselves with other people. "American" "British" "Russian" "Israeli" "Palestinian" "Arab" "Jew" "Christian" "Muslim"... all of these are classifications someone might identify with first, to differentiate themselves from anyone who is not part of their tribe. Tribal identity allows people to commit terrible acts, because you're not harming people like YOU, they're different or inferior, or any other mental gymnastics you have to do to justify terrible treatment to fellow human beings.

And speaking as an outsider, I can't understand the animosity and centuries worth of tensions that run between these two groups. It's different for me to look at this conflict and say "it looks stupid and why don't they all just stop killing." That's my stance, but it comes from being on the outside.

[Darkblock]

....
@redsn0w it's hard to blame them but it would be better if the Palestinians found a way to resist that didn't include violence.
And I think they are now moving more in that direction, by joining the ICC, etc. I hope they manage to have their own state or at least that they are accepted with equal rights into Israel.

So how can they resist to that oppression? Because we can agree ... it is an unnecessary oppression. This was the first division (1974):



 

Now I don't want to talk about the zionist, but I know there are some israeli that are against the oppression to Palestine.

interesting topic. btw, i am just adding my two cents. so not offending anyone. One of my best friends is jewish, but also doesn't like whats happening in the world. I always say, this has nothing to do with religion. It s pure poltics (the worst whore as she ficks with just everyone), and politics/politicians are just a method for controlling the society, economy and military by very rich and powerful/influential families/persons. Again this is just my point of view. NO OFFENSE.

isr. didn't exist thats true. And the worst thing (if you check "recent" progress in middle east), look at the golan heights, which are also aneccted by israel, and now (2010) officially "sold" under license agreement from ISR to J. Rothsch.. and Rupert Murd... company Genie Energy (check wikipedia, google and co.)... So as Isr. wasn't allowed to produce oil/gas from the (illegaly annected) golan heights, which OFFICIALLY belong(ed) to Syria (Bashar al Assad), they just sold the "rights for producing gas/oil" to the that "company" in 2010. (they were really clever in financial trading, for example they once (in the 19th century) held +50% of ALL existing shares in london..) Ahh, did i mention: ISR was only able to do this (anect palest. & golan h.) initially "because" of UK.. I just think the whole thing is very fishy, maybe as fishy as the accidentially gun-deliveries to ISIS by us airplanes (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2803410/Turkish-president-says-American-weapons-drop-Kurdish-fighters-wrong-supplies-end-hands-ISIS-fighters.html). anyway, i think we will face a (short and fast) WW3 very soon.. i think its already happening behind the scences.. soon they ll press the red button and and a lot of civilians will be dead...

[abyrnes81]

Check also this site: http://www.vox.com/cards/israel-palestine/intro

<< What are Israel and Palestine? Why are they fighting?

Israel is the world's only Jewish state, located just east of the Mediterranean Sea. Palestinians, the Arab population that hails from the land Israel now controls, refer to the territory as Palestine, and want to establish a state by that name on all or part of the same land. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is over who gets what land and how it's controlled. >>