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Author Topic: Going after Trendon Shavers, Pirateat40, BTCST  (Read 48228 times)
User705
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August 07, 2013, 11:24:36 PM
 #301

I'm no lawyer, heck I don't even play one on TV LOL...

But reading the original complaint from the SEC Gov site, this appears to be a Civil complaint, not criminal.

https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2013/comp-pr2013-132.pdf


Any lawyers can comment?


~BCX~

Sec is only civil. But they will pass on the evidance they collected to everyone.

I can't picture any criminal prosecutor touching this with a ten foot pole.  Civil burden of proof is much lower and the remedies are just monies but criminal is a whole other level.  The proof required on various BTC issues will be a crazy mess for the prosecutor.  BTC addresses and BTC in them can't be owned in a legal sense and if they can be and are payment methods as well then BTC itself is likely an illegal security.  This is what happens when something revolutionary meets old laws.
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August 08, 2013, 01:18:27 PM
 #302

I'm no lawyer, heck I don't even play one on TV LOL...

But reading the original complaint from the SEC Gov site, this appears to be a Civil complaint, not criminal.

https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2013/comp-pr2013-132.pdf


Any lawyers can comment?


~BCX~

Sec is only civil. But they will pass on the evidance they collected to everyone.

I can't picture any criminal prosecutor touching this with a ten foot pole.  Civil burden of proof is much lower and the remedies are just monies but criminal is a whole other level.  The proof required on various BTC issues will be a crazy mess for the prosecutor.  BTC addresses and BTC in them can't be owned in a legal sense and if they can be and are payment methods as well then BTC itself is likely an illegal security.  This is what happens when something revolutionary meets old laws.

Seems to be moving forward:
http://www.ibtimes.com/federal-magistrate-says-bitcoin-real-money-he-allows-sec-suit-go-forward-ponzi-scheme-case-1375669?goback=.gde_3721050_member_264189881

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August 08, 2013, 03:46:02 PM
 #303

This will continue to be a precedent setting case and I believe we'll see criminal prosecution of Trendon and maybe even some of the pass throughs.
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August 08, 2013, 04:02:43 PM
 #304

This will continue to be a precedent setting case and I believe we'll see criminal prosecution of Trendon and maybe even some of the pass throughs.
As well as an official US legal opinion that bitcoin is legal tender?

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August 08, 2013, 04:22:31 PM
 #305

This will continue to be a precedent setting case and I believe we'll see criminal prosecution of Trendon and maybe even some of the pass throughs.
As well as an official US legal opinion that bitcoin is legal tender?

What does legal tender have to do with it?

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August 08, 2013, 04:32:39 PM
 #306

This will continue to be a precedent setting case and I believe we'll see criminal prosecution of Trendon and maybe even some of the pass throughs.
As well as an official US legal opinion that bitcoin is legal tender?

What does legal tender have to do with it?
It was my understanding that there was no official US opinion on the fact.  There is now.

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August 08, 2013, 04:35:55 PM
 #307

FYI,

This is being discussed here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269612.msg2884152#msg2884152
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August 08, 2013, 07:32:50 PM
 #308

This will continue to be a precedent setting case and I believe we'll see criminal prosecution of Trendon and maybe even some of the pass throughs.
As well as an official US legal opinion that bitcoin is legal tender?
its not an official us government legal opinion.  It's just a court ruling that simply stated just because bitcoin is not officially sanctioned money doesn't mean one can accept it without responsibility.  The next interesting concept will be how to legally prove ownership of addresses and BTC inside it.
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August 08, 2013, 07:35:32 PM
 #309

This will continue to be a precedent setting case and I believe we'll see criminal prosecution of Trendon and maybe even some of the pass throughs.
As well as an official US legal opinion that bitcoin is legal tender?
its not an official us government legal opinion.  It's just a court ruling that simply stated just because bitcoin is not officially sanctioned money doesn't mean one can accept it without responsibility.  The next interesting concept will be how to legally prove ownership of addresses and BTC inside it.

Again,  This will be a precedent setting case....
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August 08, 2013, 07:56:08 PM
 #310

This will continue to be a precedent setting case and I believe we'll see criminal prosecution of Trendon and maybe even some of the pass throughs.
As well as an official US legal opinion that bitcoin is legal tender?
its not an official us government legal opinion.  It's just a court ruling that simply stated just because bitcoin is not officially sanctioned money doesn't mean one can accept it without responsibility.  The next interesting concept will be how to legally prove ownership of addresses and BTC inside it.

Again,  This will be a precedent setting case....
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August 08, 2013, 07:58:31 PM
 #311

trendon should be behind bars - 30 years to life.
there is a difference between an honest business going bad and an obvious ponzi scheme meant to destroy investors and reward the perpetrators.
hopefully after SEC is done with him he goes to jail for a long time (after a criminal complaint is filed)

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August 08, 2013, 08:32:38 PM
 #312

Regardless of what happens in the civil case I would expect criminal prosecution. 

"bitcoin is money"

He sole money from people.  And other may have been complicit in this effort.  There is a reason none of the PT's wanted to talk to the SEC. However they may already be cooperating with the government in exchange for leniency. 

Madoff took a whole slew of people down with him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_the_Madoff_investment_scandal
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August 09, 2013, 03:52:51 AM
 #313

I just read pretty much the whole thread, and boy am I shocked. This is my take on it, I guess he wanted to start out legit and run a legit operation but things didn't work out and he saw all the BTC coming in and just ran it as a Ponzi Scheme until he decided enough was enough and just ran with all the BTC.

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August 09, 2013, 03:56:32 AM
 #314

I just read pretty much the whole thread, and boy am I shocked. This is my take on it, I guess he wanted to start out legit and run a legit operation but things didn't work out and he saw all the BTC coming in and just ran it as a Ponzi Scheme until he decided enough was enough and just ran with all the BTC.

Legit operation?? What operation?  It was all a ponzi from start to finish.

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August 09, 2013, 03:57:47 AM
 #315

I just read pretty much the whole thread, and boy am I shocked. This is my take on it, I guess he wanted to start out legit and run a legit operation but things didn't work out and he saw all the BTC coming in and just ran it as a Ponzi Scheme until he decided enough was enough and just ran with all the BTC.

Legit operation?? What operation?  It was all a ponzi from start to finish.

Ah, you're probably right. I wasn't around when this stuff happened.

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August 09, 2013, 04:17:47 AM
 #316

This will continue to be a precedent setting case and I believe we'll see criminal prosecution of Trendon and maybe even some of the pass throughs.

As far as I know payb.tc was the only PT that directly worked with Pirate. Everyone else worked with GLBSE.

Nefario is not exactly going to be a good witness as a non-American who was deported while on holiday. And that would be if they could get him to the USA.

Theymos as a young American, and part owner of GLBSE might be, but he openly called for people to list PT's on GLBSE using this forum. I doubt he is going to want to work with the govt.

I have no idea if payb.tc is an American or not. If he is not and is not in the USA I kinda doubt they will go after him.

I'm not sure any other GLBSE owner is an American or who has access to that sort of stuff.

Also I'm going to assume that the PT's were acting in good faith and did not suspect pirate was a ponzi. If they did think this, then why not just keep the money if they knew it was to fail? I guess some of them could have done that, and that would be a way to prove guilt.

Well I'm not a lawyer but I do expect legal charges against pirate. After the SEC evidence it really is looking like he was doing a ponzi but his story on controlling the BTC price might explain his huge trading losses. Also 150,000 BTC the SEC can't track?  I do wonder if pirate started out as a ponzi or if his plan just failed and he just kept it going. Either way in the end it seems ponzi.



What's your take on your favorite person Matthew regarding this?  Didn't he offer some sort of insurance against Pirateat40 "securities"?
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August 09, 2013, 04:27:44 AM
 #317

This will continue to be a precedent setting case and I believe we'll see criminal prosecution of Trendon and maybe even some of the pass throughs.

As far as I know payb.tc was the only PT that directly worked with Pirate. Everyone else worked with GLBSE.

Nefario is not exactly going to be a good witness as a non-American who was deported while on holiday. And that would be if they could get him to the USA.

Theymos as a young American, and part owner of GLBSE might be, but he openly called for people to list PT's on GLBSE using this forum. I doubt he is going to want to work with the govt.

I have no idea if payb.tc is an American or not. If he is not and is not in the USA I kinda doubt they will go after him.

I'm not sure any other GLBSE owner is an American or who has access to that sort of stuff.

Also I'm going to assume that the PT's were acting in good faith and did not suspect pirate was a ponzi. If they did think this, then why not just keep the money if they knew it was to fail? I guess some of them could have done that, and that would be a way to prove guilt.

Well I'm not a lawyer but I do expect legal charges against pirate. After the SEC evidence it really is looking like he was doing a ponzi but his story on controlling the BTC price might explain his huge trading losses. Also 150,000 BTC the SEC can't track?  I do wonder if pirate started out as a ponzi or if his plan just failed and he just kept it going. Either way in the end it seems ponzi.



What's your take on your favorite person Matthew regarding this?  Didn't he offer some sort of insurance against Pirateat40 "securities"?

He claimed that pirate was not going to default and was going to back that claim up with BTC. He maybe let pirate sell off bad debt (or matthew sold off his debt) and later called the whole "bet" scam a "joke".  He got the scammers tag for this. Matthew still owes people millions of USD in BTC. I wonder if Matthew could get jailed for this crime. Hard to say as I am not a lawyer.




Well that insurance would probably be considered a "security" as well.  Total popcorn time.
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August 09, 2013, 04:36:10 AM
 #318

I just read pretty much the whole thread, and boy am I shocked. This is my take on it, I guess he wanted to start out legit and run a legit operation but things didn't work out and he saw all the BTC coming in and just ran it as a Ponzi Scheme until he decided enough was enough and just ran with all the BTC.

Legit operation?? What operation?  It was all a ponzi from start to finish.

Not all of us are so sure on that. But in the end it does not really matter.

Those who aren't sure are fucking idiots. No legit business can offer the kind of returns he offered. I consider everyone who was defending Pirate when he was running his scam partially responsible for the scam growing so big.
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August 09, 2013, 04:40:04 AM
 #319

Pirate is being charged for running a ponzi not a security unless i just missed some giant detail?


A ponzi is an investment fraud crime because interest rate return was being offered.  Back in the old days before those laws came about it was considered hard to prove theft since people gave money willingly.
He is charged with violations of Securities Act of 1933 and Exchange Act of 1934.
http://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2013/comp-pr2013-132.pdf
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August 09, 2013, 04:45:47 AM
 #320

No legit business can offer the kind of returns he offered.

People who say "X is impossible" are amusing to me, regardless of X.
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