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Author Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud)  (Read 378989 times)
Cconvert2G36
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December 19, 2015, 06:09:55 AM
 #4021

salt..

Quote
This denigration of signatures represents nothing less than an attack on the primacy of cryptography in cryptocurrency. The blockchain represents a complete and verifiable historical record of every transaction and balance in Bitcoin. Attacking verifiability by lopping off signatures in a misguided effort to cram more transactions into a megabyte. This leaves a eunuch which is no longer the virile Bitcoin we love. As signatures fade into history, cryptographic certainty is replaced by faith and hope.

Quote
Ultimately, it is about increasing the number of places where Bitcoin can break and reducing the prominence of cryptography in cryptocurrency.

http://qntra.net/2015/12/after-xt-failure-gavin-andresen-supports-jim-crow-for-signatures-on-the-blockchain/


and pepper... http://trilema.com/2015/theres-a-one-bitcoin-reward-for-the-death-of-pieter-wuille-details-below/
Cconvert2G36
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December 19, 2015, 06:49:34 AM
 #4022

Ever feel like you had to tell a joke twice before someone laughed?
iCEBREAKER
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December 19, 2015, 07:39:30 AM
 #4023

salt..

Quote
This denigration of signatures represents nothing less than an attack on the primacy of cryptography in cryptocurrency. The blockchain represents a complete and verifiable historical record of every transaction and balance in Bitcoin. Attacking verifiability by lopping off signatures in a misguided effort to cram more transactions into a megabyte. This leaves a eunuch which is no longer the virile Bitcoin we love. As signatures fade into history, cryptographic certainty is replaced by faith and hope.

Quote
Ultimately, it is about increasing the number of places where Bitcoin can break and reducing the prominence of cryptography in cryptocurrency.

http://qntra.net/2015/12/after-xt-failure-gavin-andresen-supports-jim-crow-for-signatures-on-the-blockchain/


and pepper... http://trilema.com/2015/theres-a-one-bitcoin-reward-for-the-death-of-pieter-wuille-details-below/

Sorry I can't offer a knee-jerk reaction to this.  I need more time and information to produce commentary of value.

As with sidechains, I will by default fight this feature.  But I will also hope that fight is similarly futile and the new feature will prove worthy of adding value to Bitcoin.   Tongue


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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Cconvert2G36
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December 19, 2015, 07:47:01 AM
 #4024

salt..

Quote
This denigration of signatures represents nothing less than an attack on the primacy of cryptography in cryptocurrency. The blockchain represents a complete and verifiable historical record of every transaction and balance in Bitcoin. Attacking verifiability by lopping off signatures in a misguided effort to cram more transactions into a megabyte. This leaves a eunuch which is no longer the virile Bitcoin we love. As signatures fade into history, cryptographic certainty is replaced by faith and hope.

Quote
Ultimately, it is about increasing the number of places where Bitcoin can break and reducing the prominence of cryptography in cryptocurrency.

http://qntra.net/2015/12/after-xt-failure-gavin-andresen-supports-jim-crow-for-signatures-on-the-blockchain/


and pepper... http://trilema.com/2015/theres-a-one-bitcoin-reward-for-the-death-of-pieter-wuille-details-below/

Sorry I can't offer a knee-jerk reaction to this.  I need more time and information to produce commentary of value.

As with sidechains, I will by default fight this feature.  But I will also hope that fight is similarly futile and the new feature will prove worthy of adding value to Bitcoin.   Tongue

How about the knee jerk reaction that death threats aren't helpful?
Zarathustra
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December 19, 2015, 10:53:16 AM
 #4025

Thanks to /u/bitcoinworld for demonstrating /r/btc is a haven for witch hunting, public lynchings, and mob rule.


An euphemism of an uncensored place. The infiltration failed. Sensor ship destroyed.

O RLY?

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3us1kl/free_jstolfi/

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3us1kl/free_jstolfi/cxioupa

Trollfi is welcome on /r/bitcoin (subject to the normal moderation/rules) but banned for no apparent reason from /r/btc.

So much for your "uncensored place."  That sensor ship has sailed.   Grin

The Bigblockers fighted there against censorship - and won.
The Smallblockers fight for censorship. That's the difference.
Zarathustra
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December 19, 2015, 10:56:15 AM
 #4026

-snip-
XT/Unlimiturd = Worst Altcoins Ever.

What's your take on when we do the segwitness altcoin?

You are confusing soft forks (segwitness) and hard forks (XT/Unlimiturd).

I don't think segwit will happen anytime Soon.  If/when it's implemented, it will be because of a genuine need as agreed/recognized by the socioeconomic majority, not because of a whining Gavinista minority of Redditurd bury brigades.

So you disagree with hdbuck and MP. How about when we fork to a modest 2MiB while segwit is tested? Altcoin?

2MB = HARD FORK = ALTCOIN = FAIL

Bitcoin hardforked already.
hdbuck
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December 19, 2015, 11:39:13 AM
Last edit: December 19, 2015, 12:43:09 PM by hdbuck
 #4027

salt..

Quote
This denigration of signatures represents nothing less than an attack on the primacy of cryptography in cryptocurrency. The blockchain represents a complete and verifiable historical record of every transaction and balance in Bitcoin. Attacking verifiability by lopping off signatures in a misguided effort to cram more transactions into a megabyte. This leaves a eunuch which is no longer the virile Bitcoin we love. As signatures fade into history, cryptographic certainty is replaced by faith and hope.

Quote
Ultimately, it is about increasing the number of places where Bitcoin can break and reducing the prominence of cryptography in cryptocurrency.

http://qntra.net/2015/12/after-xt-failure-gavin-andresen-supports-jim-crow-for-signatures-on-the-blockchain/


and pepper... http://trilema.com/2015/theres-a-one-bitcoin-reward-for-the-death-of-pieter-wuille-details-below/

Sorry I can't offer a knee-jerk reaction to this.  I need more time and information to produce commentary of value.

As with sidechains, I will by default fight this feature.  But I will also hope that fight is similarly futile and the new feature will prove worthy of adding value to Bitcoin.   Tongue

How about the knee jerk reaction that death threats aren't helpful?

its not a threat, it's a cryptographically signed message.

to show you noob the cryptography in cryptocurrency, but not so surprisingly all you kid can see is "ofmg de4th threat"!!

iCEBREAKER
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December 19, 2015, 06:39:22 PM
 #4028

-snip-
XT/Unlimiturd = Worst Altcoins Ever.

What's your take on when we do the segwitness altcoin?

You are confusing soft forks (segwitness) and hard forks (XT/Unlimiturd).

I don't think segwit will happen anytime Soon.  If/when it's implemented, it will be because of a genuine need as agreed/recognized by the socioeconomic majority, not because of a whining Gavinista minority of Redditurd bury brigades.

So you disagree with hdbuck and MP. How about when we fork to a modest 2MiB while segwit is tested? Altcoin?

2MB = HARD FORK = ALTCOIN = FAIL

Bitcoin hardforked already.

Oh my bad, I forgot to accommodate your learning disability and spell it out for you.

Here, is this better for helping you to understand why XT got #rekt?


2MB = CONTENTIOUS HARD FORK = ALTCOIN = FAIL


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
Is Dash a scam?
brg444 (OP)
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December 19, 2015, 07:59:46 PM
 #4029

Over at the mental ward...

Quote from: VeritasSapere
I often find that my writing is most inspired when countering opposing viewpoints.

You need to check your ego young man  Cheesy

Your writing is neither inspiring nor does it counter anything not resembling a collection of strawmen.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
sidhujag
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December 20, 2015, 06:21:26 AM
 #4030

Surprised that people are still on the xt bandwagon, neanderthals or homo habilus?
Lauda
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Terminated.


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December 20, 2015, 10:35:55 AM
 #4031

Surprised that people are still on the xt bandwagon, neanderthals or homo habilus?
Prepare for incoming logic fallacies.  Cheesy I can't comprehend how someone could still support XT; how, after so much research, they could claim that this is a good solution? Trying to destroy Bitcoin maybe?

"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"
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conspirosphere.tk
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December 20, 2015, 11:37:52 AM
 #4032

I can't comprehend how someone could still support XT

Here's the last Gavinista blockchain bloat activist "standing":

MbccompanyX
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December 20, 2015, 01:44:19 PM
 #4033

Surprised that people are still on the xt bandwagon, neanderthals or homo habilus?
Prepare for incoming logic fallacies.  Cheesy I can't comprehend how someone could still support XT; how, after so much research, they could claim that this is a good solution? Trying to destroy Bitcoin maybe?

well lauda let's remember that when the bitcoin xt debate started people already started to go on panic and selling but seems that instead now bitcoin becamed even stronger because it didn't only recovered the loss caused from the initial days but even got interest from this last. anyway i still think that all this debate over the block sizes is useless and can be instead a move that will slowdown the whole bitcoin network and make the start of the end for bitcoin and all the altcoins because let's remember how changes on bitcoin price causes changes even on the other coins....

VeritasSapere
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December 20, 2015, 02:31:55 PM
 #4034

Surprised that people are still on the xt bandwagon, neanderthals or homo habilus?
Prepare for incoming logic fallacies.  Cheesy I can't comprehend how someone could still support XT; how, after so much research, they could claim that this is a good solution? Trying to destroy Bitcoin maybe?
I find it difficult to comprehend why someone would still support Core. For the same reasons that Jeff Garzik has now clearly stated:

Quote from: Jeff Garzik
An Economic Change Event is a period of market chaos, where large changes to prices and sets of economic actors occurs over a short time period. A Fee Event is a notable Economic Change Event, where a realistic projection forsees higher fee/KB on average, pricing some economic actors (bitcoin projects and businesses) out of the system.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
The game theory bidding behavior is different for a mostly-empty resource versus a usually-full resource.  Prices are different.  Profitable business models are different.  Users (the set of economic actors on the network) are different.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Failure to increase block size is not obviously-conservative, it is a conscious choice, electing for one economic state and set of actors and prices over another. Choosing Future Fee Market over Today's Fee Market. It is rational to reason that maintaining TFM is more conservative than enduring an Economic Change Event from TFM to FFM. It is rational to reason that maintaining similar prices and economic actors is less disruptive. Failure to increase block size will lead to a Fee Event sooner rather than later. Failure to plan ahead for a Fee Event will lead to greater market chaos and User pain.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Some Developers wish to accelerate the Fee Event, and a veto can accomplish that. In the current developer dynamics, 1-2 key developers can and very likely would veto any block size increase.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
This is an extreme moral hazard: A few Bitcoin Core committers can veto increase and thereby reshape bitcoin economics, price some businesses out of the system. It is less of a moral hazard to keep the current economics [by raising block size] and not exercise such power.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
The current trajectory of no-block-size-increase can lead to short time market chaos, actor chaos, businesses no longer viable. In a $6.6B economy, it is criminal to let the Service undergo an Economic Change event without warning users loudly, months in advance:  "Dear users, ECE has accelerated potential due to developers preferring a transition from TFM to FFM."
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Further, wallet software User experience is very, very poor in a hyper-competitive fee market.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Almost all bitcoin businesses, exchanges and miners have stated they want a block size increase.  See the many media articles, BIP 101 letter, and wiki.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
It is a valid and rational economic choice to subsidize the system with lower fees in the beginning. Many miners, for example, openly state they prefer long term system growth over maximizing tiny amounts of current day income. Vetoing a block size increase has the effect of eliminating that economic choice as an option.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Without exaggeration, I have never seen this much disconnect between user wishes and dev outcomes in 20+ years of open source.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Higher Service prices can negatively impact system security. Bitcoin depends on a virtuous cycle of users boosting and maintaining bitcoin's network effect, incentivizing miners, increasing security. Higher prices that reduce bitcoin's user count and network effect can have the opposite impact.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
We only know for certain that blocks-mostly-not-full works. We do not know that changing to blocks-mostly-full works. Changing to a new economic system includes boatloads of risk.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
The worst possible outcome is letting the ecosystem randomly drift into the first Fee Event without openly stating the new economic policy choices and consequences. The simple fact is *inaction* on this supply-limited resource, block size, will change bitcoin to a new economic shape and with different economic actors, selecting some and not others. It is better to kick the can and gather crucial field data, because next-step (FFM) is very much not fleshed out.
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December 20, 2015, 02:39:08 PM
 #4035

I find it difficult to comprehend ...
We know that.
sAt0sHiFanClub
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December 20, 2015, 03:47:54 PM
 #4036

I find it difficult to comprehend ...
We know that.

You should try reading more than 6 words at a time. Or has smallblockism extended into text as well?   Grin

We must make money worse as a commodity if we wish to make it better as a medium of exchange
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December 20, 2015, 04:06:56 PM
 #4037

I find it difficult to comprehend ...
We know that.

You should try reading more than 6 words at a time. Or has smallblockism extended into text as well?   Grin
Cheesy For the record, I'm not smallblockist, whatever you mean by it. Wink
sidhujag
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December 20, 2015, 04:14:05 PM
 #4038

Oh theres only one person left lol.. Ive aleady read into this and debated with that person and proved to him or her why bigger blocks are not needed right now but i guess hes back for more.
VeritasSapere
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December 20, 2015, 04:21:50 PM
Last edit: December 20, 2015, 04:53:25 PM by VeritasSapere
 #4039

I find it difficult to comprehend ...
We know that.

You should try reading more than 6 words at a time. Or has smallblockism extended into text as well?   Grin
Cheesy For the record, I'm not smallblockist, whatever you mean by it. Wink
If you support Core you are supporting small blocks, unless you believe that Core will raise the blocksize. Even though Jeff Garzik himself no longer seems to believe that this is the case.

Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Some Developers wish to accelerate the Fee Event, and a veto can accomplish that. In the current developer dynamics, 1-2 key developers can and very likely would veto any block size increase.
I have discussed this with you before, you do seem like one of the more reasonable Core supporters, I would hope that eventually you would also lose faith in Core. Since surely there should also be a limit to your patience.

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December 20, 2015, 04:26:40 PM
Last edit: December 20, 2015, 04:44:44 PM by VeritasSapere
 #4040

Oh theres only one person left lol.. Ive aleady read into this and debated with that person and proved to him or her why bigger blocks are not needed right now but i guess hes back for more.
Stop pretending as if I am the only person that supports this, there are many people that want the blocksize to be increased.

Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Almost all bitcoin businesses, exchanges and miners have stated they want a block size increase.  See the many media articles, BIP 101 letter, and wiki.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Without exaggeration, I have never seen this much disconnect between user wishes and dev outcomes in 20+ years of open source.

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/who-is-for-and-against-expanding-the-block-size-reasonably-soon.119/

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-182
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