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Author Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud)  (Read 378989 times)
VeritasSapere
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December 07, 2015, 08:51:58 PM
Last edit: December 07, 2015, 09:02:22 PM by VeritasSapere
 #3661

In regards to Bitcoin being a type of democracy it is better then most state democracies at least because it is ruled by the economic majority, and there is also positive incentive build into the system.
State democracies tend to be representative democracies which are indeed ruled by an economic majority with an illusion the poor and middle class can effect much change. Bitcoin is not ruled by an economic majority alone as you suggest, but a combination of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges. This means that unlike with an economic majority which control most states, you can have a developer in India without a cent to his name issue a pull request and heavily influence the direction of bitcoin if he can receive a rough consensus and offer something innovative and useful.
State democracies are theoretically supposed to be one person one vote, this is not how state democracies mostly function today, they are indeed ruled by the economic majority like you say but with perverted incentives unlike Bitcoin. I think the reason why the ideal of democracy has been perverted in this way is because of the culture, we often do not have the required enlightened culture that is necessary for democracy to function properly as it was intended, at least theoretically. Which is why so many aspects of its governance are failing across the board in our societies today. If Bitcoin is ruled by the economic majority like I think then it can indeed suffer from some of these same problems. Which is where our political culture as a community becomes important. There are also some major differences from state democracies compared to Bitcoin however. Positive incentive and the ability to fork ultimately solving the problem of tyranny of the majority, while furthermore being completely voluntary. These important differences might just solve these age old problems. Even if you do reject the concept of the rule of the economic majority, then you are still left with the fundamental question of who decides.

What I am describing is Bitcoin, this how I think Bitcoin was designed to be.  I also hold the position that if people want a different governance system it should be implemented in an altcoin instead, this alternative vision of Bitcoin should not be implemented onto the Bitcoin we have now. This is why I think the Core developers often talk about the incentive structure of Bitcoin being broken and that they need to fix it, I do not think it is broken, I actually do think it is working now as intended and this is part of the process we need to go through in order for Bitcoin the protocol to grow and evolve into what I suspect most of us want it to become.
Great, I look forward to reading your whitepaper when you create your alt. It may be an interesting read if anything.
I have no interest in creating an alternative cryptocurrency. I was essentially saying that if you want a cryptocurrency that is ruled by mathematics or a technocracy you should attempt to create it yourself, because Bitcoin is ruled by the economic majority. I do like altcoins and I think they are also very important in further advancing the ethos of decentralization and financial freedom.
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December 07, 2015, 09:06:16 PM
 #3662

In regards to Bitcoin being a type of democracy it is better then most state democracies at least because it is ruled by the economic majority, and there is also positive incentive build into the system.

Bitcoin is not ruled by an economic majority alone as you suggest, but a combination of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges. This means that unlike with an economic majority which control most states, you can have a developer in India without a cent to his name issue a pull request and heavily influence the direction of bitcoin if he can receive a rough consensus and offer something innovative and useful.   

I would describe it as a stratification of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges; each exists with a differing capabilities to exert influence on each other, over differing timescales. But actors from a single layer cannot determine the overall outcome. Changes to the network and it's software come about when some critical combination of the strata move in a given direction.

Vires in numeris
VeritasSapere
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December 07, 2015, 09:10:45 PM
 #3663

In regards to Bitcoin being a type of democracy it is better then most state democracies at least because it is ruled by the economic majority, and there is also positive incentive build into the system.

Bitcoin is not ruled by an economic majority alone as you suggest, but a combination of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges. This means that unlike with an economic majority which control most states, you can have a developer in India without a cent to his name issue a pull request and heavily influence the direction of bitcoin if he can receive a rough consensus and offer something innovative and useful.    
I would describe it as a stratification of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges; each exists with a differing capabilities to exert influence on each other, over differing timescales. But actors from a single layer cannot determine the overall outcome. Changes to the network and it's software come about when some critical combination of the strata move in a given direction.
I can actually agree with this. It is all of these different actors that make up the consensus, which I refer to as the economic majority. Proof of work is the best way to measure consensus. The miners act as proxy for the economic majority, since the miners would not go against the economic majority since they are disincentivized to do so, this is part of the game theory and psychology that Bitcoin is build upon.

The developer in India in this example would need the support of the economic majority and a client implementation that would accept his pull request. In this sense the developer is fulfilling a preexisting need, the decision is still made by the economic majority, the consensus.
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December 07, 2015, 09:27:16 PM
 #3664

I would describe it as a stratification of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges; each exists with a differing capabilities to exert influence on each other, over differing timescales. But actors from a single layer cannot determine the overall outcome. Changes to the network and it's software come about when some critical combination of the strata move in a given direction.

These match my thoughts but more eloquently stated.

The developer in India in this example would need the support of the economic majority and a client implementation that would accept his pull request. In this sense the developer is fulfilling a preexisting need, the decision is still made by the economic majority, the consensus.

Not quite. If there are no developers willing to code alternatives, than the mining /economic majority(Those 2 aren't necessarily the same as explained below), and the time and effort to hire developers exceeds what is voluntarily contributed for free there will be a limited amount of choices for the mining and node community to vote upon. Additionally, hashing majority doesn't necessarily equal economic majority as new techniques in cooling , recycling heat and asic production could quickly make the economic majority obsolete. Than there is the impact of exchanges/merchants/nodes  to the miners behaviors.... It simply doesn't devolve into economic majority as you allude to. If anything I would suggest that meritocracy consensus system from talented developers have more influence upon bitcoin than any other category.

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December 07, 2015, 10:15:19 PM
Last edit: December 07, 2015, 10:50:13 PM by VeritasSapere
 #3665

I would describe it as a stratification of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges; each exists with a differing capabilities to exert influence on each other, over differing timescales. But actors from a single layer cannot determine the overall outcome. Changes to the network and it's software come about when some critical combination of the strata move in a given direction.

These match my thoughts but more eloquently stated.

The developer in India in this example would need the support of the economic majority and a client implementation that would accept his pull request. In this sense the developer is fulfilling a preexisting need, the decision is still made by the economic majority, the consensus.

Not quite. If there are no developers willing to code alternatives, than the mining /economic majority(Those 2 aren't necessarily the same as explained below), and the time and effort to hire developers exceeds what is voluntarily contributed for free there will be a limited amount of choices for the mining and node community to vote upon. Additionally, hashing majority doesn't necessarily equal economic majority as new techniques in cooling , recycling heat and asic production could quickly make the economic majority obsolete. Than there is the impact of exchanges/merchants/nodes  to the miners behaviors.... It simply doesn't devolve into economic majority as you allude to. If anything I would suggest that meritocracy consensus system from talented developers have more influence upon bitcoin than any other category.
A meritocracy consensus system from talented developers as you describe is essentially the same as a technocracy, I would not favor such a governance system. There are in fact developers willing to code alternatives in this case, since changing the blocksize is relatively easy to implement in terms of the code. Furthermore if you are saying that the majority of the mining power is not incentivized to do good for Bitcoin then the underlying value proposition would already be broken, the entire design depends on this presumption.

I think the economic majority is a good term to describe this collective will and power that flows from the nodes/developers/miners/merchants/exchanges/users/media/academia/payment processors etc. Decisions need to be made by the greater wisdom of the crowd and market. I can see that you disagree, I can respect your position, you do argue rationally unlike some other people here. I respectfully disagree, I would urge you to be reminded of history, our quasi democracies of today are far from ideal but they are still far better then most of the governments of the past. I view Bitcoin as being the next stage of this evolution, there are lessons to be learned from the tyrannies of the past. We should not entrust the future of Bitcoin with any organization or small group of people to make decisions for us, no matter how benign we think they might be, eventually power corrupts. This is why this power needs to become more distributed, this is also more inline with the ethos of decentralization and financial freedom within Bitcoin.
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December 08, 2015, 01:09:41 AM
Last edit: December 08, 2015, 01:27:12 AM by brg444
 #3666

Greg Maxwell was kind enough to grace us with BIP101's obituaries.

NB. May I suggest we use what's left of XT's relief fund and build a mausoleum? As a sign of recognition for the fallen martyrs I propose we have some of their names engraved for posterity.

Quote
The Scaling Bitcoin Workshop in HK is just wrapping up. Many fascinating proposals were presented. I think this would be a good time to share my view of the near term arc for capacity increases in the Bitcoin system. I believe we’re in a fantastic place right now and that the community is ready to deliver on a clear forward path with a shared vision that addresses the needs of the system while upholding its values.

I think it’s important to first clearly express some of the relevant principles that I think should guide the ongoing development of the Bitcoin system.

Bitcoin is P2P electronic cash that is valuable over legacy systems because of the monetary autonomy it brings to its users through decentralization. Bitcoin seeks to address the root problem with conventional currency: all the trust that's required to make it work--

-- Not that justified trust is a bad thing, but trust makes systems brittle, opaque, and costly to operate. Trust failures result in systemic  collapses, trust curation creates inequality and monopoly lock-in, and naturally arising trust choke-points can be abused to deny access to
due process. Through the use of cryptographic proof and decentralized networks Bitcoin minimizes and replaces these trust costs.

With the available technology, there are fundamental trade-offs between scale and decentralization. If the system is too costly people will be forced to trust third parties rather than independently enforcing the system's rules. If the Bitcoin blockchain’s resource usage, relative
to the available technology, is too great, Bitcoin loses its competitive advantages compared to legacy systems because validation will be too
costly (pricing out many users), forcing trust back into the system. If capacity is too low and our methods of transacting too inefficient, access to the chain for dispute resolution will be too costly, again pushing trust back into the system.

Since Bitcoin is an electronic cash, it _isn't_ a generic database; the demand for cheap highly-replicated perpetual storage is unbounded,
and Bitcoin cannot and will not satisfy that demand for non-ecash (non-Bitcoin) usage, and there is no shame in that. Fortunately, Bitcoin
can interoperate with other systems that address other applications, and--with luck and hard work--the Bitcoin system can and will satisfy the world's demand for electronic cash.

Fortunately, a lot of great technology is in the works that make navigating the trade-offs easier.

First up: after several years in the making Bitcoin Core has recently merged libsecp256k1, which results in a huge increase in signature
validation performance. Combined with other recent work we're now getting ConnectTip performance 7x higher in 0.12 than in prior versions. This has been a long time coming, and without its anticipation and earlierwork such as headers-first I probably would have been arguing for a
block size decrease last year.  This improvement in the state of the art for widely available production Bitcoin software sets a stage for
some capacity increases while still catching up on our decentralization deficit. This shifts the bottlenecks off of CPU and more strongly onto
propagation latency and bandwidth.

Versionbits (BIP9) is approaching maturity and will allow the Bitcoin network to have multiple in-flight soft-forks. Up until now we’ve had to
completely serialize soft-fork work, and also had no real way to handle a soft-fork that was merged in core but rejected by the network. All
that is solved in BIP9, which should allow us to pick up the pace of improvements in the network. It looks like versionbits will be ready for use in the next soft-fork performed on the network.

The next thing is that, at Scaling Bitcoin Hong Kong, Pieter Wuille presented on bringing Segregated Witness to Bitcoin. What is proposed is a _soft-fork_ that increases Bitcoin's scalability and capacity by reorganizing data in blocks to handle the signatures separately, and in doing so takes them outside the scope of the current blocksize limit.

The particular proposal amounts to a 4MB blocksize increase at worst. The separation allows new security models, such as skipping downloading data you're not going to check and improved performance for lite clients (especially ones with high privacy). The proposal also includes fraud proofs which make violations of the Bitcoin system provable with a compact proof. This completes the vision of "alerts" described in the "Simplified Payment Verification" section of the Bitcoin whitepaper, and would make it possible for lite clients to enforce all the rules of the system (under a new strong assumption that they're not partitioned from someone who would generate the proofs). The design has numerous other features like making further enhancements safer and eliminating signature malleability problems. If widely used this proposal gives a 2x capacity increase (more if multisig is widely used), but most importantly it makes that additional capacity--and future capacity beyond it--safer by increasing efficiency and allowing more trade-offs (in particular, you can use much less bandwidth in exchange for a strong non-partitioning assumption).

There is a working implementation (though it doesn't yet have the fraud proofs) at https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/segwit

(Pieter's talk is at:  transcript:
http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/segregated-witness-and-its-impact-on-scalability/
slides:
https://prezi.com/lyghixkrguao/segregated-witness-and-deploying-it-for-bitcoin/
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fst1IK_mrng#t=36m )

I had good success deploying an earlier (hard-fork) version of segwit in the Elements Alpha sidechain; the soft-fork segwit now proposed
is a second-generation design. And I think it's quite reasonable to get this deployed in a relatively short time frame. The segwit design
calls for a future bitcoinj compatible hardfork to further increase its efficiency--but it's not necessary to reap most of the benefits,and that
means it can happen on its own schedule and in a non-contentious manner.

Going beyond segwit, there has been some considerable activity brewing around more efficient block relay.  There is a collection of proposals,
some stemming from a p2pool-inspired informal sketch of mine and some independently invented, called "weak blocks", "thin blocks" or "soft
blocks".  These proposals build on top of efficient relay techniques (like the relay network protocol or IBLT) and move virtually all the
transmission time of a block to before the block is found, eliminating size from the orphan race calculation. We already desperately need this
at the current block sizes. These have not yet been implemented, but fortunately the path appears clear. I've seen at least one more or less
complete specification, and I expect to see things running using this in a few months. This tool will remove propagation latency from being a problem in the absence of strategic behavior by miners.  Better understanding their behavior when miners behave strategically is an open question.

Concurrently, there is a lot of activity ongoing related to “non-bandwidth” scaling mechanisms. Non-bandwidth scaling mechanisms are tools like transaction cut-through and bidirectional payment channels which increase Bitcoin’s capacity and speed using clever smart contracts
rather than increased bandwidth. Critically, these approaches strike right at the heart of the capacity vs autotomy trade-off, and may allow us to achieve very high capacity and very high decentralization. CLTV (BIP65), deployed a month ago and now active on the network, is very useful for these techniques (essential for making hold-up refunds work); CSV (BIP68/ BIP112) is in the pipeline for merge in core and making good progress (and will likely be ready ahead of segwit). Further Bitcoin protocol improvements for non-bandwidth scaling are in the works: Many of these proposals really want anti-malleability fixes (which would be provided by segwit), and there are checksig flag improvements already tendered and more being worked on, which would be much easier to deploy with segwit. I expect that within six months we could have considerably more features ready for deployment to enable these techniques. Even without them I believe we’ll be in an acceptable position with respect to capacity in the near term, but it’s important to enable them for the future.

(http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/overview-of-bips-necessary-for-lightning
is a relevant talk for some of the wanted network features for Lightning, a bidirectional payment channel proposal which many parties are working on right now; other non-bandwidth improvements discussed in the past include transaction cut-through, which I consider a must-read for the basic intuition about how transaction capacity can be greater than blockchain capacity: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?= topic=281848.0 , though there are many others.)

Further out, there are several proposals related to flex caps or incentive-aligned dynamic block size controls based on allowing miners
to produce larger blocks at some cost. These proposals help preserve the alignment of incentives between miners and general node operators, and prevent defection between the miners from undermining the fee market behavior that will eventually fund security. I think that right now capacity is high enough and the needed capacity is low enough that we don't immediately need these proposals, but they will be critically important long term. I'm planning to help out and drive towards a more concrete direction out of these proposals in the following months.

(Relevant talks include http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/a-flexible-limit-trading-subsidy-for-larger-blocks/)

Finally--at some point the capacity increases from the above may not be enough.  Delivery on relay improvements, segwit fraud proofs, dynamic block size controls, and other advances in technology will reduce the riskand therefore controversy around moderate block size increase proposals (such as 2/4/8 rescaled to respect segwit's increase). Bitcoin will be able to move forward with these increases when improvements and understanding render their risks widely acceptable relative to the risks of not deploying them. In Bitcoin Core we should keep patches ready to implement them as the need and the will arises, to keep the basic software engineering from being the limiting factor.

Our recent and current progress has well positioned the Bitcoin ecosystem to handle its current capacity needs. I think the above sets out some clear achievable milestones to continue to advance the art in Bitcoin capacity while putting us in a good position for further improvement and evolution.

TL;DR:  I propose we work immediately towards the segwit 4MB block soft-fork which increases capacity and scalability, and recent speedups
and incoming relay improvements make segwit a reasonable risk. BIP9 and segwit will also make further improvements easier and faster to deploy. We’ll continue to set the stage for non-bandwidth-increase-based scaling, while building additional tools that would make bandwidth
increases safer long term. Further work will prepare Bitcoin for further increases, which will become possible when justified, while also providing the groundwork to make them justifiable.

Thanks for your time.

Thank you Greg.

May the XTards RIP.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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December 08, 2015, 04:16:34 AM
Last edit: December 08, 2015, 04:32:01 AM by Patel
 #3667

I'd like to send a big warm middle finger to:

1. All the XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin. If 8mb was designed to be for 2 years, I guess they will shut up for 1 year, with 4x more transactions in 1mb blocks, and let the fee market develop.

2. Bitcoin companies that tried imposing arbitrary deadlines to manipulate/scare Bitcoin development

3. The folks with alternative Bitcoin forums (built to promote XT/101) for their FUD campaign, and trolling Reddit.com/r/bitcoin with their downvote campaigns. Reddit says thanks for the ad revenue.

4. People who turned their back on Bitcoin Core and contributors saying they were not doing anything for scalability. Even though segwit, CLTV, lightning, and majority of scalability BIP's came from Core contributors.

5. And all the other people who ignorantly got on the XT/BIP101 bandwagon, promoting a implementation/BIP that had no majority consensus which would have resulted in a ugly fork situation, and maybe even Bitcoin's death.

Majority of scalability solutions, optimization code, and new features have came from Bitcoin Core contributors, yet clowns try to discredit Bitcoin Core contributors by pushing agendas like deprecating Core.

These individuals have never contributed to development of the Bitcoin protocol in any significant way, yet they are the first ones to discredit volunteers developing with a conservative attitude.

Now Theymos, can you please add like buttons to bitcointalk.org, and implement the newbie jail again?
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December 08, 2015, 06:51:08 AM
 #3668

to have an alert key and there are risk associated with him having it.
A bogus alert is of fairly low risk; any misuse of the alert key will immediately cause an alert key revocation alert to be released; which will override any alerts and effectively disable the alert system. Several of us in core were proposing to remove the alert system entirely but there was some push-back.

I'd like to replace it with a generic mechanism that lets anyone with stationary coins over a threshold value broadcast small amounts of data per week to all participating nodes on a parallel p2p network... this would help discourage people from trying to stuff messaging things into the Bitcoin blockchain just to use our network for messages, and would provide a uniform mechanism for any client author to perform alerts... plus it would be a public utility encouraging people to hold Bitcoin (and hold it in their own possession, potentially). (And for Core, we'd make alerts use Script, like elements alpha does so it could use multisig.); but this is currently pretty far down on the priority list for me right now.

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December 08, 2015, 09:04:47 AM
 #3669

Veritas Sapere trying to simultaneously claim that:

  • Economic majority got the wrong answer to the question of the blocksize increase
  • The will of the economic majority should be respected
  • Veritas Sapere can simply assert who the economic majority are and what their position is at any given time
  • BIP101 is the worst scaling scheme
  • BIP101 isn't such a bad scaling scheme
  • Soft forks are a "disgusting" abuse of power
  • Devs are free to implement soft forks as they please
  • Veritas Sapere does not hold contradictory and/or hypocritical views

Any more, VS? It's an interesting list so far, is it possible that you could make it even more logically incoherent?
There is not a single hypocrisy in my position that you have successfully pointed out. I also do not think the economic majority is presently wrong in regards to the question of the blocksize. I have already countered the other accusations of hypocrisy. It is not my fault that you seem to be unable to understand the subtlety and nuance of ethics and modern political thought.

I will attempt to explain it again in a more general form. Sometimes people have the right to do things even though these things might be wrong, this is not contradictory, this is respecting freedom and having tolerance. For instance I respect freedom of speech, however there are many things that people can say that are outright horrible and wrong, like hate speech for example. However in order to preserve freedom of speech we need to respect other peoples right to do things that we consider to be wrong. We can also apply this to the censorship in the Bitcoin community. It was wrong for Theymos to censor reddit, yet he did have the right to do so on the forum that he controlled. Can you see how this in fact is not a contradiction but a feature of a good ethical philosophy.
We should be learning to "understand the subtlety and nuance of ethics and modern political thought"  Huh

I'm completely confused by this "economic majority", it just doesn't make any sense. From https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Economic_majority:
Quote
The theory that the power to control the Bitcoin protocol is held by those able and willing to offer things of value for bitcoins (be it goods, services or other currencies).
Then it continues with some blabber about miners trying to change the protocol.  Huh

VS, this dubious "economic majority" theory holds much weight in your "arguments". And furthermore, you claim that this majority is with XT. This is completely misguided. Please try to understand the source code and the engineering behind Bitcoin, and then come with your stupid political thought philosophy madness. Meanwhile, you don't know what you're talking about. You keep making a fool of yourself, and you're similar to a central bank chairman, one of those high-IQ PhD fools.

If you insist with your foolishness, at least try to keep your posts small and to the point. When I'm reading your unending political philosophy thought ethics, I feel like I'm reading marxist articles.

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December 08, 2015, 09:15:36 AM
 #3670

I'd like to send a big warm middle finger to:

1. All the XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin. If 8mb was designed to be for 2 years, I guess they will shut up for 1 year, with 4x more transactions in 1mb blocks, and let the fee market develop.


Seems to be even less than a 2x througput boost:

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011869.html
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December 08, 2015, 09:23:57 AM
 #3671

In regards to Bitcoin being a type of democracy it is better then most state democracies at least because it is ruled by the economic majority, and there is also positive incentive build into the system.

Bitcoin is not ruled by an economic majority alone as you suggest, but a combination of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges. This means that unlike with an economic majority which control most states, you can have a developer in India without a cent to his name issue a pull request and heavily influence the direction of bitcoin if he can receive a rough consensus and offer something innovative and useful.    
I would describe it as a stratification of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges; each exists with a differing capabilities to exert influence on each other, over differing timescales. But actors from a single layer cannot determine the overall outcome. Changes to the network and it's software come about when some critical combination of the strata move in a given direction.
I can actually agree with this. It is all of these different actors that make up the consensus, which I refer to as the economic majority. Proof of work is the best way to measure consensus. The miners act as proxy for the economic majority, since the miners would not go against the economic majority since they are disincentivized to do so, this is part of the game theory and psychology that Bitcoin is build upon.

The developer in India in this example would need the support of the economic majority and a client implementation that would accept his pull request. In this sense the developer is fulfilling a preexisting need, the decision is still made by the economic majority, the consensus.

I think the economic majority is a good term to describe this collective will and power that flows from the nodes/developers/miners/merchants/exchanges/users/media/academia/payment processors etc. Decisions need to be made by the greater wisdom of the crowd and market. I can see that you disagree, I can respect your position, you do argue rationally unlike some other people here. I respectfully disagree, I would urge you to be reminded of history, our quasi democracies of today are far from ideal but they are still far better then most of the governments of the past. I view Bitcoin as being the next stage of this evolution, there are lessons to be learned from the tyrannies of the past. We should not entrust the future of Bitcoin with any organization or small group of people to make decisions for us, no matter how benign we think they might be, eventually power corrupts. This is why this power needs to become more distributed, this is also more inline with the ethos of decentralization and financial freedom within Bitcoin.

So, this "economic majority" is supposed to be some mithical flow of power from the people to ... Bitcoin?

In this case, it is clear that the "economic majority" is agreeing with the latest release of Bitcoin Core, and ignoring XT, BU, btcd, whatever. This means XT is not accepted and bigger blocks are not wanted.

Bitcoin is a p2p network. It's not a state. Only the people that are running full nodes are in control. They chose what code is running. Simple as that.

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December 08, 2015, 09:44:13 AM
 #3672

I'd like to replace it with a generic mechanism that lets anyone with stationary coins over a threshold value broadcast small amounts of data per week to all participating nodes on a parallel p2p network... this would help discourage people from trying to stuff messaging things into the Bitcoin blockchain just to use our network for messages, and would provide a uniform mechanism for any client author to perform alerts... plus it would be a public utility encouraging people to hold Bitcoin (and hold it in their own possession, potentially). (And for Core, we'd make alerts use Script, like elements alpha does so it could use multisig.); but this is currently pretty far down on the priority list for me right now.

Bitcoin days destroyed, that sounds pretty cool.

Potentially this parallel p2p network could also be used by LN nodes to "advertise" their open channels and help LN participants find an appropriate payment path.

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December 08, 2015, 01:08:29 PM
 #3673

This Toomim bro is some kind of weirdo...

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011875.html

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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December 08, 2015, 02:09:12 PM
 #3674

Veritas Sapere trying to simultaneously claim that:

  • Economic majority got the wrong answer to the question of the blocksize increase
  • The will of the economic majority should be respected
  • Veritas Sapere can simply assert who the economic majority are and what their position is at any given time
  • BIP101 is the worst scaling scheme
  • BIP101 isn't such a bad scaling scheme
  • Soft forks are a "disgusting" abuse of power
  • Devs are free to implement soft forks as they please
  • Veritas Sapere does not hold contradictory and/or hypocritical views

Any more, VS? It's an interesting list so far, is it possible that you could make it even more logically incoherent?
There is not a single hypocrisy in my position that you have successfully pointed out. I also do not think the economic majority is presently wrong in regards to the question of the blocksize. I have already countered the other accusations of hypocrisy. It is not my fault that you seem to be unable to understand the subtlety and nuance of ethics and modern political thought.

I will attempt to explain it again in a more general form. Sometimes people have the right to do things even though these things might be wrong, this is not contradictory, this is respecting freedom and having tolerance. For instance I respect freedom of speech, however there are many things that people can say that are outright horrible and wrong, like hate speech for example. However in order to preserve freedom of speech we need to respect other peoples right to do things that we consider to be wrong. We can also apply this to the censorship in the Bitcoin community. It was wrong for Theymos to censor reddit, yet he did have the right to do so on the forum that he controlled. Can you see how this in fact is not a contradiction but a feature of a good ethical philosophy.
We should be learning to "understand the subtlety and nuance of ethics and modern political thought"  Huh

I'm completely confused by this "economic majority", it just doesn't make any sense. From https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Economic_majority:
Quote
The theory that the power to control the Bitcoin protocol is held by those able and willing to offer things of value for bitcoins (be it goods, services or other currencies).
Then it continues with some blabber about miners trying to change the protocol.  Huh

VS, this dubious "economic majority" theory holds much weight in your "arguments". And furthermore, you claim that this majority is with XT. This is completely misguided. Please try to understand the source code and the engineering behind Bitcoin, and then come with your stupid political thought philosophy madness. Meanwhile, you don't know what you're talking about. You keep making a fool of yourself, and you're similar to a central bank chairman, one of those high-IQ PhD fools.

If you insist with your foolishness, at least try to keep your posts small and to the point. When I'm reading your unending political philosophy thought ethics, I feel like I'm reading marxist articles.
I never claimed that the economic majority is presently siding with XT, I am not in a position to know that, furthermore I suspect that January will be a very informative month in that regard. So you are arguing a straw man here, for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.

There is also much more to Bitcoin governance then just the full nodes. That would be an oversimplification, the governance of Bitcoin exists as an interconnected web of variant interests, represented by the nodes as well as the miners among other parties.
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December 08, 2015, 02:14:37 PM
 #3675

... for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.

Meheh, just look at who's talking.
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December 08, 2015, 02:19:25 PM
 #3676

I never claimed that the economic majority is presently siding with XT, I am not in a position to know that, furthermore I suspect that January will be a very informative month in that regard. So you are arguing a straw man here, for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.
Nobody is going to be siding with XT, so how about you stop with that 'we will see' nonsense? After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going. Even Hearn abandoned his project. It is time to admit defeat and move on.

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December 08, 2015, 03:59:48 PM
 #3677

I never claimed that the economic majority is presently siding with XT, I am not in a position to know that, furthermore I suspect that January will be a very informative month in that regard. So you are arguing a straw man here, for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.
Why January? Something to do with XT? Why do you suspect January will be informative wrt "economic majority"?

I must have misread the following from you:

However the core developers should not decide what goes into the Bitcoin protocol, this is a very important distinction, it is the economic majority that should and does ultimately decide on what the Bitcoin protocol should be, not the core developers. That is why it is so important that we have multiple implementations of the Bitcoin protocol, including multiple competing development teams.
=> Core is evil, "economic majority" should decide

I do not think that the economic majority would want to pay $100 per transaction that is my point.
=> XT is good, wants to prevent increased fees, "economic majority" wants that too

Everything considered I can view XT as being the least totalitarian choice out of the two, especially considering that some of the Core developers oppose alternative implementations on principle, whereas XT embraces this concept instead.
=> XT is good alternative implementation, Core is evil totalitarian

It seems like Core does not want to test the consensus using proof of work and multiple implementations, therefore Core does just implement whatever they want to implement. I am saying that we should allow the economic majority to decide by allowing people to choose from multiple implementations, this is the best and really the only way to reach true and legitimate consensus.
=> Multiple implementations good ("economic majority" will make evil Core obsolete)

If you think your vision for a Bitcoin competitor is such a good idea, go and get your own hashrate to subject it to. Your agenda is to change a system that doesn't want your proposal, and you just won't go away. You're in a minority, and a decreasing minorty at that. The real plan to scale Bitcoin up responsibly is now underway with BIP 65 rolling out. Get your own coin.

The economic majority might not agree with you, time will tell. Bitcoin is also not your coin, it belongs to everyone, Satoshi's gift to the world.
=> "Economic majority" *might* hate evil Core

Satoshi decided for us. Should we tear apart the whole thing and have it rewritten by "the economic majority"?
The will of the economic majority is more important then Satoshi's vision. Invoking Satoshi's vision surely must be a mistake on your behalf however since he did support increasing the blocksize:
=> "economic majority" disagrees with brg444, thus agrees with XT huge blocks

For some issues however like the blocksize specifically, it does seem like some other alternative implementations are willing to implement this change sooner then Core is willing to. So when it comes to fundamental disagreements like the blocksize in this case at least having multiple implementations might speed up the implementation of what the economic majority wants. More then seventy five percent of the miners are voting for an increased blocksize after all.
=> multiple implementations good, "economic majority" does not want Core

XT is not a takeover of Bitcoin, I wish you would stop saying this, I can respect your position, but saying that XT is a takeover actually harms all of Bitcoin regardless of what you believe.

Rule by the economic majority is how Bitcoin is meant to be governed. So if the majority of people freely choose to adopt an alternative implementation of the Bitcoin protocol then this should be considered legitimate, even if you disagree. XT requires seventy five percent consensus in order for it to even initiate a fork after all.
=> XT is good, enables "economic majority" to decide

Enough with this. Please stop this masquerade. Write short and to the point.

There is also much more to Bitcoin governance then just the full nodes. That would be an oversimplification, the governance of Bitcoin exists as an interconnected web of variant interests, represented by the nodes as well as the miners among other parties.
There is no "governance of Bitcoin". Bitcoin is not a state. It is a p2p network.

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December 08, 2015, 04:29:27 PM
 #3678

I never claimed that the economic majority is presently siding with XT, I am not in a position to know that, furthermore I suspect that January will be a very informative month in that regard. So you are arguing a straw man here, for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.
Nobody is going to be siding with XT, so how about you stop with that 'we will see' nonsense? After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going. Even Hearn abandoned his project. It is time to admit defeat and move on.

More people are going to be siding with BIP101 than the BIPwaitandsee. After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going.
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December 08, 2015, 05:00:29 PM
 #3679

I never claimed that the economic majority is presently siding with XT, I am not in a position to know that, furthermore I suspect that January will be a very informative month in that regard. So you are arguing a straw man here, for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.
Nobody is going to be siding with XT, so how about you stop with that 'we will see' nonsense? After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going. Even Hearn abandoned his project. It is time to admit defeat and move on.

More people are going to be siding with BIP101 than the BIPwaitandsee. After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going.

You seriously need to lay the pipe down. That crystal getting to your head.

BIP101 has been abandoned by even one of its most ardent defender:
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011875.html

Get with the program would ya?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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December 08, 2015, 05:47:10 PM
 #3680

I never claimed that the economic majority is presently siding with XT, I am not in a position to know that, furthermore I suspect that January will be a very informative month in that regard. So you are arguing a straw man here, for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.
Nobody is going to be siding with XT, so how about you stop with that 'we will see' nonsense? After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going. Even Hearn abandoned his project. It is time to admit defeat and move on.

More people are going to be siding with BIP101 than the BIPwaitandsee. After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going.

You seriously need to lay the pipe down. That crystal getting to your head.

BIP101 has been abandoned by even one of its most ardent defender:
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011875.html


The 1MB-joke has also been abandoned by some 1MB proponents. Some people are now ready for a compromise, some are not.
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