Avalon 6 Vs Antminer S7, which one you will choose?

[SeventhWatcher]

hmmm... interesting thread.

Sorry, i don't mean to angrily bash your product even before it came out. I understand that production costs are productions costs and you want to avoid selling at a loss like SP did with the SP20.

I'm just struggling to understand the pricing scheme.

Miner manufactures just sell the rigs at the highest price which can make most of the money.

In China, a fair price for this stage of instock rigs (~0.25-0.3W/Ghs) is ~ 2200RMB/Ths, it's about 345$/Ths. exclude of shipping. By this price, you can sell as many as you want of them. So...

ng

Lol yup.

I'm young, but I'm a chemical engineer and have worked a lot of shitty sales. High ticket 2k + machines. I've never seen a true cost to manufacture over 20%. Ever. Think Kirby vacuums. Fitness machines. Printers. Heck cars. It's nothing new. Its like that on every industry but in this one it's worse. I hope antminer reads this, too.

These machines sound juicy. Potential game changers for the little guy at home, but how the market is turning? People will be in the marketplace in a few months trying to sell them used at retail too lol

[ngzhang]

hmmm... interesting thread.

Sorry, i don't mean to angrily bash your product even before it came out. I understand that production costs are productions costs and you want to avoid selling at a loss like SP did with the SP20.

I'm just struggling to understand the pricing scheme.

Miner manufactures just sell the rigs at the highest price which can make most of the money.

In China, a fair price for this stage of instock rigs (~0.25-0.3W/Ghs) is ~ 2200RMB/Ths, it's about 345$/Ths. exclude of shipping. By this price, you can sell as many as you want of them. So...

ng

QUESTION  can this be down clocked and under volted like the 4.1?

downclock: certainly

voltage: this is a string design...

I see, thanks for your replies, it does make sense, since in the end, it does not matter what is profitable to me, its about whats profitable for others. Thus it make sense for the miners to be so expensive if in China they can be bought out easily at 345$/TH/s.

For your second replies, you seem to mean it is not very prone to being undervolted because it is a string design. However it is possible to down volt the S5 by using 9-11v PSU's.

Is it simply not supported by the chips?

In China, I think most of the buyers now have nearly free electricity. So they can have profit much easier. I think this is why mining rigs' price are higher than you guys think.

About under voltage, the marking of "11.8-12.2V" means this miner will have a 3.65T (+- 10%) of the performance, we test it under this voltage. You can run it under a 11V PSU, and will get a better efficiency performance but slower speed. The hardware and software is fully support this case. but I think the lowest voltage is ~10V.

Lol yup.

I'm young, but I'm a chemical engineer and have worked a lot of shitty sales. High ticket 2k + machines. I've never seen a true cost to manufacture over 20%. Ever. Think Kirby vacuums. Fitness machines. Printers. Heck cars. It's nothing new. Its like that on every industry but in this one it's worse. I hope antminer reads this, too.

These machines sound juicy. Potential game changers for the little guy at home, but how the market is turning? People will be in the marketplace in a few months trying to sell them used at retail too lol

you can you up, no can no bb.
ng

[VirosaGITS]

hmmm... interesting thread.

Sorry, i don't mean to angrily bash your product even before it came out. I understand that production costs are productions costs and you want to avoid selling at a loss like SP did with the SP20.

I'm just struggling to understand the pricing scheme.

Miner manufactures just sell the rigs at the highest price which can make most of the money.

In China, a fair price for this stage of instock rigs (~0.25-0.3W/Ghs) is ~ 2200RMB/Ths, it's about 345$/Ths. exclude of shipping. By this price, you can sell as many as you want of them. So...

ng

QUESTION  can this be down clocked and under volted like the 4.1?

downclock: certainly

voltage: this is a string design...

I see, thanks for your replies, it does make sense, since in the end, it does not matter what is profitable to me, its about whats profitable for others. Thus it make sense for the miners to be so expensive if in China they can be bought out easily at 345$/TH/s.

For your second replies, you seem to mean it is not very prone to being undervolted because it is a string design. However it is possible to down volt the S5 by using 9-11v PSU's.

Is it simply not supported by the chips?

In China, I think most of the buyers now have nearly free electricity. So they can have profit much easier. I think this is why mining rigs' price are higher than you guys think.

About under voltage, the marking of "11.8-12.2V" means this miner will have a 3.65T (+- 10%) of the performance, we test it under this voltage. You can run it under a 11V PSU, and will get a better efficiency performance but slower speed. The hardware and software is fully support this case. but I think the lowest voltage is ~10V.

ng

Thanks for the reply. Such mean of undervolting is going to be of great interest for certain people.

It means that when your hardware will be "obsolete" in the future, when new gen miners do under 0.1J-0.14/GH, it will be possible to continue using the Avalon6 for some while longer at good profitability.

Therefore your Avalon6 gain a bit more value in the eyes of the "min/maxers" of Bitcoin mining.

[RichBC]

About under voltage, the marking of "11.8-12.2V" means this miner will have a 3.65T (+- 10%) of the performance, we test it under this voltage. You can run it under a 11V PSU, and will get a better efficiency performance but slower speed. The hardware and software is fully support this case. but I think the lowest voltage is ~10V.

ng

That is excellent that it can be underclocked & undervolted. Do you have a table of Clock Frequency, Supply Voltage, TH/s & J/GH ?

Rich

[ngzhang]

About under voltage, the marking of "11.8-12.2V" means this miner will have a 3.65T (+- 10%) of the performance, we test it under this voltage. You can run it under a 11V PSU, and will get a better efficiency performance but slower speed. The hardware and software is fully support this case. but I think the lowest voltage is ~10V.

ng

That is excellent that it can be underclocked & undervolted. Do you have a table of Clock Frequency, Supply Voltage, TH/s & J/GH ?

Rich

So here is the real problem.

I only have a very limited test machines in hand, will try to answer this in the near future.

But every machines are different. will have more and more performance difference when the voltage going down...

ng

[RichBC]

So here is the real problem.

I only have a very limited test machines in hand, will try to answer this in the near future.

But every machines are different. will have more and more performance difference when the voltage going down...

ng

I appreciate that undervolting / underclocking will have variable results across machines. However it would be very useful to have an indication as to what is possible?


Thank You

Rich

[ngzhang]

So here is the real problem.

I only have a very limited test machines in hand, will try to answer this in the near future.

But every machines are different. will have more and more performance difference when the voltage going down...

ng

I appreciate that undervolting / underclocking will have variable results across machines. However it would be very useful to have an indication as to what is possible?


Thank You

Rich

The difference maybe up to 50%....

Also, I think the "tweak" of Avalon6 will be extremely easy. set a top frequency, set a target temperature, finish. The machine will find a best frequency and fan speed by your setting.

[notlist3d]

So here is the real problem.

I only have a very limited test machines in hand, will try to answer this in the near future.

But every machines are different. will have more and more performance difference when the voltage going down...

ng

I appreciate that undervolting / underclocking will have variable results across machines. However it would be very useful to have an indication as to what is possible?


Thank You

Rich

The difference maybe up to 50%....

Also, I think the "tweak" of Avalon6 will be extremely easy. set a top frequency, set a target temperature, finish. The machine will find a best frequency and fan speed by your setting.

The 4.1 was really amazing on it's range of normal to underclock.  I really would love to see one underclocked.   

If the Avalon 6 does the same it would be interesting to see by how much it beat's a S7.  I would love to see some numbers there on watts used in underclock.

[VirosaGITS]

So here is the real problem.

I only have a very limited test machines in hand, will try to answer this in the near future.

But every machines are different. will have more and more performance difference when the voltage going down...

ng

I appreciate that undervolting / underclocking will have variable results across machines. However it would be very useful to have an indication as to what is possible?


Thank You

Rich

The difference maybe up to 50%....

Also, I think the "tweak" of Avalon6 will be extremely easy. set a top frequency, set a target temperature, finish. The machine will find a best frequency and fan speed by your setting.

Thats a pretty handy feature, "auto" though some people prefer to handle that manually, it will probably be very useful during the summer heat.

And a up to 50% difference possible in efficiency would be excellent. That is great news and definitively a upside to going with the Avalon6. I'm sure I or RichBC will be looking forward having a unit in hand to test this.

[philipma1957]

Okay I own this psu




https://www.trcelectronics.com/ecomm/pdf/rsp1500.pdf


it goes as high as 13.5 volts or as low as 10 volts   it is 87%  so just about a gold

if it can run your machine at 10 volts  and say  3000gh or 2800 gh  using  600 to 700 watts your machine is worth more to most usa buyers.


I can run a full set of tests for you.

 Just GET ME  an avalon 6.

[SeventhWatcher]

Okay I own this psu




https://www.trcelectronics.com/ecomm/pdf/rsp1500.pdf


it goes as high as 13.5 volts or as low as 10 volts   it is 87%  so just about a gold

if it can run your machine at 10 volts  and say  3000gh or 2800 gh  using  600 to 700 watts your machine is worth more to most usa buyers.


I can run a full set of tests for you.

 Just GET ME  an avalon 6.

😇 I'll probably get one of each. Bitcoin mining seems like an interesting endeavor

[notlist3d]

About under voltage, the marking of "11.8-12.2V" means this miner will have a 3.65T (+- 10%) of the performance, we test it under this voltage. You can run it under a 11V PSU, and will get a better efficiency performance but slower speed. The hardware and software is fully support this case. but I think the lowest voltage is ~10V.

ng

That is excellent that it can be underclocked & undervolted. Do you have a table of Clock Frequency, Supply Voltage, TH/s & J/GH ?

Rich

So here is the real problem.

I only have a very limited test machines in hand, will try to answer this in the near future.

But every machines are different. will have more and more performance difference when the voltage going down...

ng

With so few test machines should we really expect NOV 10th to be when the first batch is out?

Mr. Lee in his thread claimed he was getting 3PH shipped out pretty soon.  So makes me wonder on that as-well if limited on test machines:

As a matter of fact, i have ordered 3P hashrate from avalon, they told me they will ship them to me on 31th Oct. but i think it is hard for them to keep the word, as their chip still on the way to factory until yesterday.
however, it is not easy to sell avalon miner to your guys because they use one raspberrypi to control 60 unit miner=60*3.5=210T. so i prefer to sell those avalon as cloud mining hashrate.

[sidehack]

With an 18-chip string, Avalon estimates about 0.26W/GH chip-level and BM1385 0.22W/GH chip-level at 0.67V
BM1385 estimates 0.18W/GH at 0.6V, which translates to 10.8V in; that's about a 20% reduction. If we can see about 30% reduction at 560mV that's around 0.15-0.16W/GH at 560mV (10V in); if the Avalon curve has a similar shape but shifted to slightly higher power (0.26/0.22) at 560mV you'd see around 0.18W/GH chip-level.

Assuming you can still run half the stock frequency (around 51GH per ASIC) at that voltage, you'd see about 25GH and around 4.5W per ASIC, for 1.8TH and under 350W machine-level with 10V rails. I'd be surprised to see under 700W for 3TH off that machine but I could be wrong.

[sidehack]

S7 should be capable of it if run below 11V

I'd really like to see a 3218 datasheet, especially with an efficiency curve. I don't know that Avalon puts efficiency data in the sheets though.

[philipma1957]

With an 18-chip string, Avalon estimates about 0.26W/GH chip-level and BM1385 0.22W/GH chip-level at 0.67V
BM1385 estimates 0.18W/GH at 0.6V, which translates to 10.8V in; that's about a 20% reduction. If we can see about 30% reduction at 560mV that's around 0.15-0.16W/GH at 560mV (10V in); if the Avalon curve has a similar shape but shifted to slightly higher power (0.26/0.22) at 560mV you'd see around 0.18W/GH chip-level.

Assuming you can still run half the stock frequency (around 51GH per ASIC) at that voltage, you'd see about 25GH and around 4.5W per ASIC, for 1.8TH and under 350W machine-level with 10V rails. I'd be surprised to see under 700W for 3TH off that machine but I could be wrong.

but for the sake of argument lets say you do 1.8th  using 375 watts  my psu could drive 2 avalon 6's  easy  giving me 3.6th and 750 watts

so while the avalon 6 does not look great at stock numbers merely good.

  it looks great as an underclock undervolt monster.

reminds me of undervolt underclock of gpu's back in 2011 and 2012

I want these machines.

BTW the s-7 does not allow under volt below 11.7 volts now that was with the batch 1 controller maybe the batch 2 controller or the batch 3 controller allows for it.

the later s-5's allowed for undervolt

[notlist3d]

With an 18-chip string, Avalon estimates about 0.26W/GH chip-level and BM1385 0.22W/GH chip-level at 0.67V
BM1385 estimates 0.18W/GH at 0.6V, which translates to 10.8V in; that's about a 20% reduction. If we can see about 30% reduction at 560mV that's around 0.15-0.16W/GH at 560mV (10V in); if the Avalon curve has a similar shape but shifted to slightly higher power (0.26/0.22) at 560mV you'd see around 0.18W/GH chip-level.

Assuming you can still run half the stock frequency (around 51GH per ASIC) at that voltage, you'd see about 25GH and around 4.5W per ASIC, for 1.8TH and under 350W machine-level with 10V rails. I'd be surprised to see under 700W for 3TH off that machine but I could be wrong.

but for the sake of argument lets say you do 1.8th  using 375 watts  my psu could drive 2 avalon 6's  easy  giving me 3.6th and 750 watts

so while the avalon 6 does not look great at stock numbers merely good.

  it looks great as an underclock undervolt monster.

reminds me of undervolt underclock of gpu's back in 2011 and 2012

I want these machines.

BTW the s-7 does not allow under volt below 11.7 volts now that was with the batch 1 controller maybe the batch 2 controller or the batch 3 controller allows for it.

the later s-5's allowed for undervolt

If you get 1.8 for 375 that would be amazing.  The 4.1's were monsters as you put it on underclocking.  If the Avalon 6 can do this  it will be hard to beat.

I mean even at having ... unless something huge changes 1.8 for 375 I think will make it still a valid in many places... which is huge.  So I'm excited to see it.

[VirosaGITS]

With an 18-chip string, Avalon estimates about 0.26W/GH chip-level and BM1385 0.22W/GH chip-level at 0.67V
BM1385 estimates 0.18W/GH at 0.6V, which translates to 10.8V in; that's about a 20% reduction. If we can see about 30% reduction at 560mV that's around 0.15-0.16W/GH at 560mV (10V in); if the Avalon curve has a similar shape but shifted to slightly higher power (0.26/0.22) at 560mV you'd see around 0.18W/GH chip-level.

Assuming you can still run half the stock frequency (around 51GH per ASIC) at that voltage, you'd see about 25GH and around 4.5W per ASIC, for 1.8TH and under 350W machine-level with 10V rails. I'd be surprised to see under 700W for 3TH off that machine but I could be wrong.

but for the sake of argument lets say you do 1.8th  using 375 watts  my psu could drive 2 avalon 6's  easy  giving me 3.6th and 750 watts

so while the avalon 6 does not look great at stock numbers merely good.

  it looks great as an underclock undervolt monster.

reminds me of undervolt underclock of gpu's back in 2011 and 2012

I want these machines.

BTW the s-7 does not allow under volt below 11.7 volts now that was with the batch 1 controller maybe the batch 2 controller or the batch 3 controller allows for it.

the later s-5's allowed for undervolt

If you get 1.8 for 375 that would be amazing.  The 4.1's were monsters as you put it on underclocking.  If the Avalon 6 can do this  it will be hard to beat.

I mean even at having ... unless something huge changes 1.8 for 375 I think will make it still a valid in many places... which is huge.  So I'm excited to see it.

The Avalon6 will have much better downvolting capabilities here, as we were told some hours ago. But it is going to need adjustable PSU or buck converter. I'm not sure how much efficiency we'll be able to gain but just down clocking. Maybe not much at all, but we'll see.

[sidehack]

Yeah all my numbers are pure speculation, and as mentioned, it'll require special PSU hardware to get those voltages at any decentc current and efficiency.

[philipma1957]

Yeah all my numbers are pure speculation, and as mentioned, it'll require special PSU hardware to get those voltages at any decentc current and efficiency.

could be right up your alley.

[notlist3d]

With an 18-chip string, Avalon estimates about 0.26W/GH chip-level and BM1385 0.22W/GH chip-level at 0.67V
BM1385 estimates 0.18W/GH at 0.6V, which translates to 10.8V in; that's about a 20% reduction. If we can see about 30% reduction at 560mV that's around 0.15-0.16W/GH at 560mV (10V in); if the Avalon curve has a similar shape but shifted to slightly higher power (0.26/0.22) at 560mV you'd see around 0.18W/GH chip-level.

Assuming you can still run half the stock frequency (around 51GH per ASIC) at that voltage, you'd see about 25GH and around 4.5W per ASIC, for 1.8TH and under 350W machine-level with 10V rails. I'd be surprised to see under 700W for 3TH off that machine but I could be wrong.

but for the sake of argument lets say you do 1.8th  using 375 watts  my psu could drive 2 avalon 6's  easy  giving me 3.6th and 750 watts

so while the avalon 6 does not look great at stock numbers merely good.

  it looks great as an underclock undervolt monster.

reminds me of undervolt underclock of gpu's back in 2011 and 2012

I want these machines.

BTW the s-7 does not allow under volt below 11.7 volts now that was with the batch 1 controller maybe the batch 2 controller or the batch 3 controller allows for it.

the later s-5's allowed for undervolt

If you get 1.8 for 375 that would be amazing.  The 4.1's were monsters as you put it on underclocking.  If the Avalon 6 can do this  it will be hard to beat.

I mean even at having ... unless something huge changes 1.8 for 375 I think will make it still a valid in many places... which is huge.  So I'm excited to see it.

The Avalon6 will have much better downvolting capabilities here, as we were told some hours ago. But it is going to need adjustable PSU or buck converter. I'm not sure how much efficiency we'll be able to gain but just down clocking. Maybe not much at all, but we'll see.

On 4.1 it was a good amount.  So that is what i am hoping for.   I love my 4.1's and still run them today.

If Avalon 6 has same capability as them I will love it and want one at least.  Depends on how much that underclock is.  The insider seemed to make it sound like it has a good capability on it.