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Question: Which is better? Monero or Dash?
Monero - 128 (63.7%)
Dash - 73 (36.3%)
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Author Topic: Honestly, which is better? Monero or Dash?  (Read 35892 times)
dinofelis
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August 04, 2016, 08:58:33 AM
 #441

Besides who gives shit about ANON crap ?
It's a dumb idea that is going to attract hackers and govt agents and mass regulations
for all of crypto ..in a bad way !

This is something that leaves me perplexed.  The whole point of crypto is to undo government and governement law, I would think.  Otherwise there's no point, except as a funny toy for speculators.  Now, to be able to undo government and governement law, the only way is to do it anonymously, no ?  If you use a tool to undo a mighty powerful enemy (the state and state law), you must be crazy to do so in the open, no ?  The whole point of crypto is to be able to do financial transactions that are "against the law", otherwise why not use the government system (= banking) ?  The whole point is to be able to finance what is forbidden, and not to be stolen by taxes where the law imposes taxation, no ?  If not, and if law abiding, what good is crypto ?

Bitcoin was a very good idea, but was essentially lacking the technology to do so.  The thing that comes closest is coinjoin which breaks trustlessness.  DASH is the best possible implementation of that.

Cryptonote solved the issue with ring signatures, a technology lacking in bitcoin.  It is far superior to the coinjoin technology which is a patch.

That said, most of crypto, and most of its market cap, seems to consist of "law abiding citizens".  I fail to see the interest of that.  If you are law abiding, what are you doing in crypto, which had as a goal the failure of state and law ?

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August 04, 2016, 09:23:16 PM
Last edit: August 05, 2016, 12:20:36 AM by ArticMine
 #442

...

This is something that leaves me perplexed.  The whole point of crypto is to undo government and governement law, I would think.  Otherwise there's no point, except as a funny toy for speculators.  Now, to be able to undo government and governement law, the only way is to do it anonymously, no ?  If you use a tool to undo a mighty powerful enemy (the state and state law), you must be crazy to do so in the open, no ?  The whole point of crypto is to be able to do financial transactions that are "against the law", otherwise why not use the government system (= banking) ?  The whole point is to be able to finance what is forbidden, and not to be stolen by taxes where the law imposes taxation, no ?  If not, and if law abiding, what good is crypto ?

Bitcoin was a very good idea, but was essentially lacking the technology to do so.  The thing that comes closest is coinjoin which breaks trustlessness.  DASH is the best possible implementation of that.

Cryptonote solved the issue with ring signatures, a technology lacking in bitcoin.  It is far superior to the coinjoin technology which is a patch.

That said, most of crypto, and most of its market cap, seems to consist of "law abiding citizens".  I fail to see the interest of that.  If you are law abiding, what are you doing in crypto, which had as a goal the failure of state and law ?



When I see posts like this it becomes clear how much many in the crypto currency communities have deviated from Statoshi's original ideal after close to 8 years. A good place to start is to read the introduction to Statoshi's paper. https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf. The whole point crypto is to provide a digital payment method that behaves the same as cash, and can be used over the Internet.  This is all about cutting out the corporate middlemen and has little to do with Governments. It is about making electronic payments to individuals, especially individuals who may be very poor. In person one can use good old cash, but online one is forced to use proprietary payment methods whose primary design objective is to transfer wealth to the wealthiest  0.000001%. This critical design flaw in proprietary digital payment methods means that they fail miserably when the payee has a net worth below that of middle class or the payer has a net worth at or below that of poverty. Furthermore "middle class" and "poverty" are defined by the standards of a wealthy developed first world country.  

My take is that as far as government power is concerned the impact of crypto may well be neutral.

If we look at Bitcoin, there are two very important critical characteristics of money that Bitcoin lacks:

The first is that Bitcoin can only be used by a very minuscule proportion of the worlds population. This is of course the 1 MB blocksize limit in the Bitcoin protocol. Dash does not address this at all since 4x minuscule is still minuscule. Monero does because it has an adaptive blocksize limit.

The second is that Bitcoin in reality is not fungible and is subject to coin taint and possibly even reversibility of transactions. Furthermore there is no privacy on the Bitcoin blockchain, in particular from the payer. The recent events in Ethereum have demonstrated that a decentralized proof of work blockchain is not enough to prevent reversibility of transactions one also needs anonymity, fungibitly and privacy.

Dash addressees anonymity, fungibility and privacy by implementing Coinjoin on a second tier masternode network. There are serious shortcomings with this approach. Mixing on the Dash masternode network can take hours or even days, and has to be completed before a transaction, and then again after a transaction with the change. Furthermore the Dash masternode network is actually very centralized. There are for example over 4x the number of Banks and Credit Unions in the United States alone that there are Dash masternodes. By this token alone the US banking system is actually more decentralized than the Dash network.

Monero addressees anonymity, fungibility and privacy by using ring signatures. Mixing is seamless and part of the transaction. Sending Monero is essentially the same as sending Bitcoin, with no distinct mixing step.  Furthermore in Monero all transactions are mixed. Monero's approach avoids the need for second tier network with all the centralization and regulatory risks this entails, while at the same time providing a much superior anonymity, fungibility and privacy solution.

Dash does have an interesting technology in Instant X that Monero does not have. In fact Monero has moved in the opposite direction by moving from a 1 min block time to a 2 min block time. My take on Instant X is that for online payments it is irrelevant, Where it is relevant is for in person transactions, yet this is precisely where crypto is the least needed. It is also the area where crypto will face fierce competition from cash and  pre paid value apart from proprietary payment methods. Still it is possible this could be a niche opportunity for Dash.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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August 14, 2016, 03:16:22 PM
 #443

Ring CT just got PRed to master!

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/pull/961

Bear in mind that, even though the code is finished, it will need thorough review and testing before it will get merged into master.

Great work by MoneroMooo, Shen Noether and everyone else involved!

Anonymity race is definitely lost for DASH.
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August 14, 2016, 04:27:15 PM
 #444

When I see posts like this it becomes clear how much many in the crypto currency communities have deviated from Statoshi's original ideal after close to 8 years. A good place to start is to read the introduction to Statoshi's paper. https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf. The whole point crypto is to provide a digital payment method that behaves the same as cash, and can be used over the Internet.  This is all about cutting out the corporate middlemen and has little to do with Governments.

But (fiat) money and governments are two sides of the same coin if I may say so.  You should read the excellent 5000 years of debt by David Graeber.  If you think that the banking world and the middle men are anything else but a pillar of government, then you are missing the most important point.

By doing what Satoshi proposed, one is cutting the most important leg from government and state.  Because with free payments comes also freedom from fiscal theft, and freedom to trade without the rules that are verifiable by all state machinery to keep economic freedom strictly limited.  
Freedom of money is to state domination, what freedom of speech is to religious domination.  However, and that brings us back to my original point, in order to enjoy freedom of speech in a theocracy, you need anonymity.  In order to enjoy really freedom of economic interaction (with some freedom money like Satoshi intended) you need cash-like anonymity, and Satoshi was lacking the technology to do so.  Bitcoin is not anonymous, because you can trace all expenditures and there are sufficient "real world contact points" to be able to resolve most of the network of transactions.

Quote
It is about making electronic payments to individuals, especially individuals who may be very poor. In person one can use good old cash, but online one is forced to use proprietary payment methods whose primary design objective is to transfer wealth to the wealthiest  0.000001%.

The small fee for the money transfer is negligible compared to the fiscal theft.  Honestly, if you look at the fiscal theft from a rough trade: "I mow your lawn" traded for "you give me a book", with social security contributions, income tax and VAT, you're most of the time far over 50% if you do that all according to the law.  On most raw trades, more than half of it is stolen by the state.  You don't mind adding a few percent to transfer money to the other side of the world if already more than half of it gets stolen by funders of armies, useless state employees, and bank bailouts, right ?

So the REAL freedom in payment is the economic freedom (from fiscal theft), which is implied by the liberty money Satoshi intended to invent.  But for that, anonymity is necessary, and this is technologically lacking in bitcoin.

Quote
The first is that Bitcoin can only be used by a very minuscule proportion of the worlds population. This is of course the 1 MB blocksize limit in the Bitcoin protocol. Dash does not address this at all since 4x minuscule is still minuscule. Monero does because it has an adaptive blocksize limit.

I agree with that, but even monero would have a practical problem with a huge block chain if every payment in the world happened on its chain.  The 1 MB limit is an artificial limit, but the huge chain is an inherent problem of the technology of block chains.  Newer coins seem to work on solutions for that if I understand well.

Quote
The second is that Bitcoin in reality is not fungible and is subject to coin taint and possibly even reversibility of transactions. Furthermore there is no privacy on the Bitcoin blockchain, in particular from the payer. The recent events in Ethereum have demonstrated that a decentralized proof of work blockchain is not enough to prevent reversibility of transactions one also needs anonymity, fungibitly and privacy.

I agree with you.  That is why I say that monero has added the needed technology that bitcoin is lacking, unfortunately.

Quote
Dash addressees anonymity, fungibility and privacy by implementing Coinjoin on a second tier masternode network. There are serious shortcomings with this approach. Mixing on the Dash masternode network can take hours or even days, and has to be completed before a transaction, and then again after a transaction with the change. Furthermore the Dash masternode network is actually very centralized. There are for example over 4x the number of Banks and Credit Unions in the United States alone that there are Dash masternodes. By this token alone the US banking system is actually more decentralized than the Dash network.

I fully agree with you.  That is why Dash is the best possible solution with bitcoin technology, and is in fact not good enough.

Quote
Monero addressees anonymity, fungibility and privacy by using ring signatures. Mixing is seamless and part of the transaction. Sending Monero is essentially the same as sending Bitcoin, with no distinct mixing step.  Furthermore in Monero all transactions are mixed. Monero's approach avoids the need for second tier network with all the centralization and regulatory risks this entails, while at the same time providing a much superior anonymity, fungibility and privacy solution.

Indeed.

Because another important aspect in anonymity is that it should be automatic.  If anonymity is an option, then anybody using it becomes a suspect.

Quote
It is also the area where crypto will face fierce competition from cash and  pre paid value apart from proprietary payment methods. Still it is possible this could be a niche opportunity for Dash.

I think that there is in any case a problem there, and only Lighting-like smart contract solutions can probably solve this issue: by pre-setting up a block chain agreement, and "simultaneously pushing the button" when in person-to-person contact.

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August 14, 2016, 08:08:10 PM
 #445

I think that both are good options. Each one has its own features and both offer complete anonymity. Its only a matter of choice.
thats true though in my opinion dash has way more potential at the moment annd it is going to become really huge, im putting my bitcoins into dash

 
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August 18, 2016, 01:10:59 PM
 #446

I think that both are good options. Each one has its own features and both offer complete anonymity. Its only a matter of choice.
thats true though in my opinion dash has way more potential at the moment annd it is going to become really huge, im putting my bitcoins into dash

The Dash has strong leader like the Ethereum. The Monero does not have apparent lead like the bitcoin. I am not sure which one is better.

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August 18, 2016, 01:15:41 PM
 #447

The Dash has strong leader like the Ethereum. The Monero does not have apparent lead like the bitcoin. I am not sure which one is better.

If the strength of a leader is a criterion for using a monetary asset, then you should probably stick with the US dollar and get rid of all your gold...

BTW, a problem with DASH is indeed that it has lost decentralization in order to obtain a form of anonymity, and we see with DASH that we already get a typical effect of centralization: taxes !  The centralization by the Master nodes and the DASH-DAO comes with taxes on mining.  The taxes on mining are probably higher than the fees paid to classical banking, so this centralisation becomes, as is typical and unavoidable, a lucrative affair for the "gouvernors".

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August 18, 2016, 02:03:09 PM
 #448


This is something that leaves me perplexed.  The whole point of crypto is to undo government and governement law, I would think.

When I see posts like this it becomes clear how much many in the crypto currency communities have deviated from Statoshi's original ideal after close to 8 years.

Deviated or evolved ?

You make some good points but I think you should consider that recent trends in alternate crypto-token systems are animated by the apparent desire to evolve the internet and its application space to a new p2p architecture which, by virtue of its lack of central control, may well help mitigate the intrusive nature of governments.
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August 18, 2016, 02:29:38 PM
 #449

You make some good points but I think you should consider that recent trends in alternate crypto-token systems are animated by the apparent desire to evolve the internet and its application space to a new p2p architecture which, by virtue of its lack of central control, may well help mitigate the intrusive nature of governments.

I would even say that that trend is not new, but what is new, is the hope that technologies are emerging that can make this possible.
But these "dreams" are much older than bitcoin.  Freenet dates from 1999 for instance and I2P dates from 2003.
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August 18, 2016, 10:41:43 PM
 #450

This discussion is being held on Monero's StackExchange, because Dash by a wide margin failed to qualify for StackExchange.   Cheesy

http://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/112/how-is-monero-compared-to-dash

Quote from: Alexde
PrivateSend does have a potentially serious flaw.

Each coinjoin requires a server to facilitate the mixing. This requires users to trust that the server is not recording details on where each user's outputs are ending up. Dash attempts to mitigate this risk by using what they call "masternodes". Masternodes are the servers which coordinate PrivateSend. These masternodes require a deposit of 1000 Dash to run. In theory, this collateral prevents someone from creating an arbitrary number of nodes for the purpose of recording coinjoin details.

Does this really mitigate the risk of coinjoin details being recorded, enabling transactions to be traced? Not reliably. The reality is that the majority of masternodes are hosted by a small number of VPS providers. These VPS providers could easily record the transactions being facilitated by any masternode that they host.


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August 19, 2016, 05:31:59 AM
 #451

This discussion is being held on Monero's StackExchange, because Dash by a wide margin failed to qualify for StackExchange.   Cheesy

http://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/112/how-is-monero-compared-to-dash

Quote from: Alexde
PrivateSend does have a potentially serious flaw.

Each coinjoin requires a server to facilitate the mixing. This requires users to trust that the server is not recording details on where each user's outputs are ending up. Dash attempts to mitigate this risk by using what they call "masternodes". Masternodes are the servers which coordinate PrivateSend. These masternodes require a deposit of 1000 Dash to run. In theory, this collateral prevents someone from creating an arbitrary number of nodes for the purpose of recording coinjoin details.

Does this really mitigate the risk of coinjoin details being recorded, enabling transactions to be traced? Not reliably. The reality is that the majority of masternodes are hosted by a small number of VPS providers. These VPS providers could easily record the transactions being facilitated by any masternode that they host.


In fact, one could say that DASH, using bitcoin technology lacking ring signatures, is like using a commercial VPN for privacy, while monero, using ring signatures, is like using TOR for privacy.  One is using "trusted obfuscation", the other one is using cryptography.

I said it before, DASH is a heroic attempt to do something for which the technology was lacking.  It is a bit like trying to implement non-repudiation signatures with symmetric crypto.

DASH succeeds partially in its goal, in that the DASH block chain is much less transparent for the casual explorer than is the bitcoin chain.  Like in the same way, a VPN service is good enough to get some privacy from big data miners.  But if you want to get more than that, it isn't good enough.  On top of that, DASH can do so only with a huge complexity build on top of it, with masternodes, incentives and all that.  All in all, they succeeded in making something that is probably the best possible way to do so when the actual technology was lacking.


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August 22, 2016, 09:54:14 AM
 #452

What about NAV?

Double encryption!

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August 22, 2016, 10:04:14 AM
 #453

Dash and Monero are great in their own little way no matter what.
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August 22, 2016, 10:14:03 AM
 #454

They are both equaly bad cryptocurrencies and scams. Most of the alternative cryptos are scams or worthless dumpcoins. I would not recommend investing in those 2, the only alternative cryptocurrencies I believe in is Litecoin and some others.

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...#EndTheFUD...
TechorMarketing
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August 23, 2016, 04:07:54 PM
 #455

GET TO DA CHOPPA!!!!  
  
But seriously, any of these people are welcome to come support Monero.  We don't have masternodes or built-in profit schemes, but we do offer the most esteemed cryptography in any blockchain coupled with a passionate and welcoming community.  No rivalries will be held over anyone's head - all are welcome in our tent.

Monero has welcomed many new community members over the past few days and will continue to do so.

Welcome to the Monero family
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August 23, 2016, 04:28:07 PM
 #456

They are both equaly bad cryptocurrencies and scams. Most of the alternative cryptos are scams or worthless dumpcoins. I would not recommend investing in those 2, the only alternative cryptocurrencies I believe in is Litecoin and some others.
How do you know that both are scam. for me those two altcoin is still the best right now but the problem there is the movement of the price is not fast than before..
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August 24, 2016, 03:39:44 AM
 #457

Dash is old and busted.

Monero is the new hotness.

Citation:

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/monero-cryptocurrency-dark-net-drug-dealers-hope-more-anonymous-than-bitcoin-alphabay

Quote
Dash, a cryptocurrency that formerly went by the name Darkcoin, received substantial media attention when a few mid-sized markets implemented it in 2014. Two years later, Dash hasn’t been implemented on any online dark net markets worth noting.

If Monero takes off, it just might be the super-anonymous currency that the web’s secretive drug economy has been waiting for.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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Is Dash a scam?
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August 24, 2016, 03:56:44 AM
 #458

Although they both offer anonymity, I find Dash to be better lately. Apart for its price.
 They also do have DASH DAO right now which somehow if going to be revolutionary and I like Amanda lol I wonder where they found her.











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happen or be a part of it"
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August 24, 2016, 04:21:50 AM
 #459

Although they both offer anonymity, I find Dash to be better lately. Apart for its price.
 They also do have DASH DAO right now which somehow if going to be revolutionary and I like Amanda lol I wonder where they found her.




Dash's anonymity fails to meet end-to-end privacy standards, so offers inferior anonymity to Monero--pretty girls are hardly an argument for due diligence. Offering anonymity and delivering it are two very different things. Even without CT and kovri, Monero offers you the best privacy available--maybe you need less--cool.

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August 24, 2016, 04:45:23 AM
 #460

Although they both offer anonymity, I find Dash to be better lately. Apart for its price.
 They also do have DASH DAO right now which somehow if going to be revolutionary and I like Amanda lol I wonder where they found her.




Dash's anonymity fails to meet end-to-end privacy standards, so offers inferior anonymity to Monero--pretty girls are hardly an argument for due diligence. Offering anonymity and delivering it are two very different things. Even without CT and kovri, Monero offers you the best privacy available--maybe you need less--cool.

DOA

The masses always catch on a day late and a dolla short. AFA XMR it has been so undervalued FOR SO LONG IT'S FINALLY GETTING THE ATTENTION IT DESERVED YEARS AGo

“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”
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