Honestly, which is better? Monero or Dash?

[bitowl]

took me few days to read about the instamine with Dashcoin + the crippled thing with Monero both had issues but one worked harder and the other did a gambling website with bug fixing.

Wasn't the crippled gpu mining code carried over from what monero was a fork of? I also remember reading it was fixed rather early on and the shady people were given the boot. Seems like a minor ding compared to the deceit involved with early darkcoin.

[Xiadas]

The developer of Dash owns a lot of it. So he has the incentive to develop it further and maintain it. I am not sure about Monero.

[CoinHoarder]

That attacks as to the centralization of masternodes are reminiscent of people harping on about possible attacks on PoS. Two (ish) years later no successful attacks have been documented. The attack methods, although they technically may be possible, are highly unlikely to ever occur.

You guys also ignore the centralization all PoW coins (which come into play here because the coins you are championing are PoW based) inherently succumb to when it comes to mining and pools.

It's nice you guys want to play crypto currency police, but I feel like it is up to each investor to do the research themselves. This is the internet, people will get scammed daily... it happens. If someone is stupid enough to invest in something without doing extensive research then that is their fault, and perhaps they will learn a good lesson from it that will save them more money in the future.

Cramming this information down people's throat looks like spam considering you guys are pushing a competing alternative cryptocurrency. There are plenty of other scam-like coins in existence, yet you guys focus most of your "policing" on a competing cryptocurrency. It looks more like propaganda considering the circumstances.

Thanks CoinHoarder.
This forum still have intelligent people.  

FTFY

Oh rly?

CH was just shown to have not done his research before speaking.

Semantics.. not going to debate them.

Ignorance (i.e. not doing your homework) is semantics?

Uh no.. it stems from speaking before searching.

OK let me rephrase that that since you want to debate semantics. I admit that was poorly worded and therefore made the statement wrong. No major PoS coins have been successfully attacked. NVC is a scam coin that no one cares about, it getting attacked due to a low amount of stakeholders staking is similar to all of the PoW coins that have been attacked because of a low amount of miners mining them. It does not mean anything as to the security of PoS coins, plus there are many variants that are more or less secure. I posit that the most secure PoS implementation is yet to come, even still none of the major PoS coins have been successfully attacked.

[farfiman]

The developer of Dash owns a lot of it. So he has the incentive to develop it further and maintain it. I am not sure about Monero.

That describes the owner of every premined coin.....

[TPTB_need_war]

[...]I say this is what should be done. Let the well known members of both coins give concise reasonings and explanations for their opinion on which is better. It would be beneficial to add links or images pinpointing what they are talking about, and other people can look into it later when they get the chance.  Then after a couple of days when everyone has had their piece about which one is better, the OP should then post up a "pro vs. con" chart for each coin and then let people decide for themselves[...]

What good does it do for us experts to explain as I did upthread that Dash's InstantX subjects the coin to double-spending and forking, and yet n00bs like this one below will completely ignore my (and monsterer's) expertise and continue to spread lies like the following.

In terms of technology and innovation behind both coins you have to give it to Dashcoin[...]Dashcoin with instant transaction is like a dream coming from Bitcoin! and it actually works!  [...]

Newbie please explain to me how you can completely ignore my expertise and then repeat a lie as you did? Are you a sockpuppet account that is intentionally lying?

Do you think I don't know what I am writing about? Do you have any clue how much expertise there  is between myself, monsterer and smooth?

We try to help you all understand, but you ignore us and repeat lies.  

Seems like it best to just you fools lose your money. Go ahead. I don't care what you do.

I am not aligned with XMR nor DRK. I never owned either one, and probably never will.

[stoat]

Im still not convinced either way which is better monero or dash.  Ive weighed up all the arguments in this thread and Im still on the fence.  Can anyone, ANYONE please finally explain why monero is better than dash or dash is better than monero???!!

[TPTB_need_war]

Im still not convinced either way which is better monero or dash.  Ive weighed up all the arguments in this thread and Im still on the fence.  Can anyone, ANYONE please finally explain why monero is better than dash or dash is better than monero???!!

A design that can be trivially double-spent and forked to oblivion is not enough clarity for you  

Are people this intentionally stoopid or am I missing something? He says he read all the arguments, so I assume he is not lying. Perhaps he didn't bother to read all my details arguments that I linked to, or since he can't understand them he ignores them?

How can they ignore such claims from experts? Could someone please enlighten me  

Do you even comprehend what a fork does to a coin, and especially what 10,000 forks does to a coin with 10,000 mining nodes? Hint: each mining node becomes its own lonesome fork and everyone can spend their coins 10,000 times. And no one has any clue of what the value of anything is. Total chaos and devastation.

Don't you think it would best if you put your entire life savings into that Forkathon coin now.

[TPTB_need_war]

Im still not convinced either way which is better monero or dash.  Ive weighed up all the arguments in this thread and Im still on the fence.  Can anyone, ANYONE please finally explain why monero is better than dash or dash is better than monero???!!

A design that can be trivially double-spent and forked to oblivion is not enough clarity for you  

Are people this intentionally stoopid or am I missing something? He says he read all the arguments, so I assume he is not lying. Perhaps he didn't bother to read all my details arguments that I linked to, or since he can't understand them he ignores them?

How can they ignore such claims from experts? Could someone please enlighten me  

Do you even comprehend what a fork does to a coin, and especially what 10,000 forks does to a coin with 10,000 mining nodes? Hint: each mining node becomes its own lonesome fork and everyone can spend their coins 10,000 times. And no one has any clue of what the value of anything is. Total chaos and devastation.

Don't you think it would best if you put your entire life savings into that Forkathon coin now.

Do you think anyone is putting their life savings in either of these coins? That would be foolish as hell.

So is your point that gambling with a smallish speculation that my alleged flaw can be fixed or isn't enough of an issue to stop others from gambling is sufficient reason to invest in a flawed coin?

Actually that is economically rational behavior. Go forth. Mea culpa.

[obit33]

Im still not convinced either way which is better monero or dash.  Ive weighed up all the arguments in this thread and Im still on the fence.  Can anyone, ANYONE please finally explain why monero is better than dash or dash is better than monero???!!

Look, the way I see it monero has supreme anonimity and privacy features built in on the protocol level, it's just how cryptonote works (although not as perfectly as TPTB would want it to be...). Dash doesn't have these features, so they're trying to build them on top of it via masternodes who essentially do the mixing of the coins to anonimize... This brings certain problems...

so technology-wise monero seems te be better... and then you could also take into account that Dash had a significant premine (almost 10% of the coinsupply), had several rebrandings, the masternode-system is a form of centralisation and creates a dash-aristocracy, is not peer reviewed, X11 had lots of critics etc...
Dash does seem to be better at marketing itself...

if still not convinced I suggest you take a few days to do research for yourself...

best regards,

[TPTB_need_war]

No I am just pointing out that your last part of your reply was wrong, I will take this back if anyone has actually done that with either Monero or Dash.

But if you meant what I wrote, then it would have actually been a very insightful rebuttal. And thus I wrote, "mea culpa".

Free markets should be freedom-to-choose without some authority overlording on everyone's point-of-view. I hope Smoothie learns this. Pedantic regurgitation of some ancient history about some alleged unethical outcome of a contract should end up in a court-of-law it is worthwhile to pursue. What relevance is that that it justifies burying this thread in a long-winded attack against one person's past dealings on this forum in this thread about Dash vs. Monero. As if that one person is a significant factor in the Dash vs. Monero issue. Cripes we will argue about arguing, then argue about arguing about arguing. We will bury ourselves so deep in meta-hate that we will never work on actually reaching the millions of users out there in the real world.

That is why these hate threads are really not fruitful.

Let each go speculate in what they want.

If you all want to create debate threads where anything goes, then some of us have suggested to please title them as such and please try to not make the entire subforum filled with redundant hate/debate threads.

[TPTB_need_war]

instant TX either though

But instantX is broken and it can not be fixed. I don't understand why people keep claiming this as a feature, which is actually a flaw that can bring Dash to its knees.

[obit33]

Im still not convinced either way which is better monero or dash.  Ive weighed up all the arguments in this thread and Im still on the fence.  Can anyone, ANYONE please finally explain why monero is better than dash or dash is better than monero???!!

Look, the way I see it monero has supreme anonimity and privacy features built in on the protocol level, it's just how cryptonote works (although not as perfectly as TPTB would want it to be...). Dash doesn't have these features, so they're trying to build them on top of it via masternodes who essentially do the mixing of the coins to anonimize... This brings certain problems...

so technology-wise monero seems te be better... and then you could also take into account that Dash had a significant premine (almost 10% of the coinsupply), had several rebrandings, the masternode-system is a form of centralisation and creates a dash-aristocracy, is not peer reviewed, X11 had lots of critics etc...
Dash does seem to be better at marketing itself...

if still not convinced I suggest you take a few days to do research for yourself...

best regards,

Monero doesn't have Trezor support or instant TX either though, I still hold my point that neither of these coins will be the final main coin for anonymity.

I'm not saying that one of these coins will be the final coin for anonimity... But if I had to choose one for now I would definitely choose monero... Will there be something better on the market in the future, very probably yes, but right now, not that I know of... At least nog yet with practical usability as in technology that works (within limitations, yes)... If there is something better that works already, please tell me!

best regards

[TPTB_need_war]

The next person who claims that Dash has superior tech than Cryptonote is going to make my head explode. Lolz.

The people (person?) who write(s) Dash's white papers can't even do high school level math.

[TPTB_need_war]

The next person who claims that Dash has superior tech than Cryptonote is going to make my head explode. Lolz.

The people (person?) who write(s) Dash's white papers can't even do high school level math.

I haven't seen a single person declare it has "superior" but just different it is obvious where you stand but I have to ask if it is so easy to attack the Instant TX why haven't we seen it widely happen?

Quote from upthread:

Arguments along the lines of "if that is true, why didn't happen yet" are refuted with:

1. Perhaps only I am the one who realized how to attack it. And I just described it today.
2. There isn't much incentive to do that attack, because (from what I've heard about most of the trading volume on altcoins being fake) there isn't any way to extract any significant value from Dash via shorting.

Perhaps the Dash folks should bet the Monero folks they can't attack the coin. And put up enough of a bet to make it worthwhile.

The Finney attack that I described can probably pulled off without needing to purchase a lot of masternodes. I am not sure which the attack will cause: a double-spend or a fork, because would require studying the code for Dash to discern the exact protocol enforced in that case.

I don't think anyone has the incentive to buy up 50% of the masternodes to do the other attacks (actually the attacks could be achieved somewhat infrequently with a much smaller % of the masternodes, e.g. with 10% of the masternodes every 666th UTXO could be jammed and every 10,000th UTXO could be spent as many times as desired). No one could gain enough from shorting on Dash to recoup their costs. The point is if Dash did become liquid and valuable, then the incentive might be there. The larger point is that if Dash were really adopted by millions of users, it wouldn't get very far. Maybe one could argue it would be fixed very quickly if adoption did start growing that fast. You are free to speculate on that possibility.

Remember these market caps for crypto coins are likely mirage. Insiders buying coins from themselves to pump up the price and the volume.

[Minotaur26]

Just for your reference with regards to InstantX

[...]Masternodes could indeed wreck havoc. The InstantX white paper shows some math that claims an adversary needs 2/3 of the masternodes to attain 1.72% chance of controlling the majority of a single quorum. I think this math may be flawed. Can you whip up the correct probability math quickly or should I?

https://www.dash.org/instantx/

I see the flaw in Dash's math:

Probabilities of attack can be calculated by the chance of a masternode being selected as the winning node for a given block (1/1000). To subvert the system an attacker would require operating all ten masternodes that won a given election

The attacker only needs less than 10 of the of masternodes which are eligible to authorize an InstantX lock for a specific UTXO. Because if InstantX requires all 10 masternodes to authorize (which I believe is what the white paper implies), then the attacker can block (i.e. jam) InstantX 65% of the time with only 1/10 of the masternodes! With 50% of the masternodes, the attacker could jam the InstantX 99.9% of the time. There is the 50% attack. This is probably why for Evolution, Evan changed the requirement to a simple majority (or some N-of-M) of each eligible quorum.

Dash's flawed math in the InstantX paper incorrectly assumes the attacker needs all 10 of the eligible masternodes.

Thus if the attacker owns 50% of the masternodes, the attacker has at least the 6/10th majority in 38% of the InstantX transactions and also can block (jam) the InstantX transactions 62% time with only at least a 5/10ths minority. Thus the attacker can attack 38 + 62 = 100% of the time. There is the 50% attack again. And Evan erroneously claimed that Evolution eliminates the 50% attack.  

That is the hypergeometric distribution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_distribution
http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/422414/probability-of-selecting-q-red-balls-from-m-red-balls-and-n-blue-balls

So enter here:

http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx
 

Population size:	1000 masternodes
Number of successes in population:	500 adversarial, colluding masternodes
Sample size:	10 eligible masternodes
Number of successes in sample (x):	6 needed for a majority

I don't think anyone has the incentive to buy up 50% of the masternodes to do the other attacks (actually the attacks could be achieved somewhat infrequently with a much smaller % of the masternodes, e.g. with 10% of the masternodes every 666th UTXO could be jammed and every 10,000th UTXO could be spent as many times as desired).

IX requires 6 of 10 signatures to create a transaction lock. This entire argument is based on an invalid premise! So your jamming attack doesn't work...

https://github.com/evan82/dash/blob/master/src/instantx.h#L25

The paper is very outdated and this is why I should have written the code first, then the whitepaper second. I found all of these issues when I was actually writing the code, so it doesn't include any of them.

https://github.com/evan82/dash/blob/master/src/instantx.cpp
https://github.com/evan82/dash/blob/master/src/instantx.h
https://github.com/evan82/dash/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L2973

You should really try to follow the progress of evolution, what's happening is getting exciting. All of the existing Dash technology is just a simple prototype of what we're now making.

For example, the new quorum system uses age-based quorum layering. Each quorum will have 25% nodes that are very old (more than 2 years), 25% that are more than a year, 25% that are more than six months and 25% that are more recent. As the network gets older, we will also use the most trusted nodes as 25% of all quorums, so it becomes impossible to gain a majority as a bad actor.

Also, you said this "Thus if the attacker owns 50% of the masternodes, the attacker has at least the 6/10th majority in 38% of the InstantX transactions and also can block (jam) the InstantX transactions 62% time with only at least a 5/10ths minority. Thus the attacker can attack 38 + 62 = 100% of the time. There is the 50% attack again. And Evan erroneously claimed that Evolution eliminates the 50% attack.  "

That's not a 51% attack! There's only one and it's related to mining... That's the one I'm trying to solve. The idea behind this is I can create a system where the masternodes via quorum actions will determine which blocks will have which transactions... If the miners don't decide which transactions are in which block, it removes all mining vulnerabilities. They are responsible for creating the proof of work hashes, which are the bases for the quorum selection.

Feedback and discussion is always welcome! Thanks for helping us make Dash Evolution better.  

[stoat]

Im still not sure. Ive heard all the arguments in favour of monero, it seems very promising, and ive heard all the arguments in favour of dash, the technology seems very good.  But i still cant make my mind up. It seems that there is almost no one that can really decide which one is better monero or dash.  If only there was someone from either the dash community or the monero community who could please finally explain to me which one is better. Monero or dash.

[generalizethis]

Maybe a little early to be doing a victory lap.

IX requires 6 of 10 signatures to create a transaction lock.

Which is exactly what I wrote it must do, and exactly what I wrote when I surmised that your white paper was implying the highly jammable design of 10-of-10.

But as I pointed out in the correct math (which is clear you still haven't grasped), even 6-of-10 can be jammed 62% of the time (and multiply spent the other 38% of the time) given a 50% attack on the masternodes (i.e. the 50% attack on masternodes can attack 100% of the InstantX transactions). Even at 10% attack on masternodes, then every 666th UTXO can be jammed and roughly every 10,000th UTXO can be multiply spent. So if there are 66,600 UXTO, then a 10% attack on the masternodes (i.e. controlling 10% of the masternodes) roughly can jam 100 of the available UXTO and double-spend (actually multiply spend, i.e. unlimited lies can be announced by masternodes) 7 of them.

These sort of flaws are amateurish. You are in over your head. You are a programmer and some sort of finance person and a reasonably good marketer mining the gullible speculators (but not to actual users of currency), but you are not capable enough on the block chain theory.

This entire argument is based on an invalid premise! So your jamming attack doesn't work...

Nope. My entire argument is you apparently still don't know how to do basic probability math.

Will you attempt to copy my design and order Dash's masternode announcements? Then will you try to copy my design and merge all the orphans? If not, you will still have attack flaws in your design. Will you replace the deposit for controlling a masternodes with a nomination by PoW, so as to avoid the flaw of externalities that can finance the purchase of masternodes, e.g. shorting the coin.

Well even if you do manage to copy my design, you still can't fix the fact that attacking masternodes is a one-time cost and not sublinear (ongoing cost) as per attacking a correctly designed PoW coin (which is the point that has been made by myself, monsterer, and smooth). And thus Dash is a proof-of-stake security model, not a proof-of-work. Thus it can be undermined by for example combining shorting with attacking masternodes. And you won't get all the small details correct, because you simply don't have enough smart people helping you, because apparently the smart people don't want to work on your closed source during development (and very well documented allegations: fraud) coin. I would never work on your coin, because you have no usership. It is all marketing to speculators to mine the speculators. What is the point? We are supposed to be creating crypto to change the world and entice millions or billions of users. But that has never been your marketing plan. You've always been mining the speculators instead.

And also I do believe the SEC will be coming after you eventually for very clearly running an unregistered illegal investment security (and you come from the finance world so you know very well that you are skirting the securities law). Hope you've paid off the regulators with the $million you mined from the gullible speculators in crypto. Personally I don't see how it has been worth it. The $million you've perhaps pocketed will never sustain you to be rich for the rest of your life, and you will constantly have hanging over your head the threat of SEC action at any time in the future. That is criminal liability in exchange for $million. Not worth it. You are nearing the end of the road for your run.

When I originally assisted you on some of the errors in your original design which caused you to invent masternodes, I viewed you as a nice guy who was trying to develop something. When all these allegations of fraud and premine crap came out, I was very shamed that I had let you get away with promoting Dash. I always knew that Dash was a barely literate design (come on do you really want me to explain how your new anonymity design will be just as flawed as the current on in Dash!), but I didn't want to interfere because I am not the altcoin police (unlike smooth who sometimes tries to act like a sheriff). But really I have to tell you frankly, that I am ashamed that you have mined the speculators and not proposed any real impact for mass usership. And now you have the audacity to go pumping up this Evolution design as some great innovation and fooling more gullible speculators. I mean if you hadn't of done the fraud thing, I would probably not be hitting you so hard now. Again I don't go around harping on the fraud thing, because I am not the altcoin police. But pleeeaaaseee do not try to argue that you are capable on block chain theory tech. You are not.

I don't want to help you because you are doing evil in terms of the goals we as a community are trying to reach. You are siphoning away money from the community and not putting it towards actual innovation (both marketing and technical) that could really help us deal with the problem of a State gone amok. Help us to reach the ideals of crypto. Instead you are just mining the speculators and they seem to believe you are technically capable. You are capable enough to produce code, and you are capable enough to correct mistakes that are pointed out to you. But you are not capable enough to get the really smart people to work with you on ongoing basis, because you are not going in the correct direction in terms of the purpose of why we are here supporting crypto in the first place, which is to get millions of users to use crypto and to better the world (while also making money from increased adoption, not from mining from each other i.e. extracting money from each other in zero-sum game on this forum).

Maybe if you mea culpa on the premine crap and work towards bettering the world instead fooling (ahem marketing to the) the speculators, then maybe I would feel like helping you. But any way, I am moving forward on trying to move the crypto world forward in the direction it needs to be going. Maybe you should help me! I helped you before and you made a lot of money from me standing aside and not criticizing Dash in the early days. Maybe now it is time for you to pay back to the community.

And most definitely you can't duplicate my marketing plan directly to millions of users.

This is the end of the road for Dash.

It will be evident some weeks from now that Dash has no future.

Edit: I will look at your source code links when I have time. I need to head out the door to do errands. If I discover that any of my points are incorrect, I will mea culpa. Again I don't hate you, but I feel I must be frank about the technology because we really need innovation that help us reach the goals of crypto and not just half-assed tech from guys who design schemes to siphon off the capital of crypto into their pockets. And again I have studied the SEC regulations and all these marketing to speculators is clearly a violation of the Howey test for being an unregistered illegal investment security. It doesn't matter how you've obfuscated it by pretending the masternodes are in control, the Supreme Court has consistently said that the test overlooks any attempts to obfuscate the economic reality of the situation. Then on top of that is the evidence of deception with the premine and the advertised money supply protocol being altered ex post facto, etc.

And afaik you are a USA citizen, so thus you incur the maximum culpability.

[DrkLvr_]

Im still not sure. Ive heard all the arguments in favour of monero, it seems very promising, and ive heard all the arguments in favour of dash, the technology seems very good.  But i still cant make my mind up. It seems that there is almost no one that can really decide which one is better monero or dash.  If only there was someone from either the dash community or the monero community who could please finally explain to me which one is better. Monero or dash.

All due respect, but are you brain damaged? TPTB_need_war has responded to you specifically, yet you continue posting the same thing on each page.

The only good technology in Dash was inherited from Bitoin, period. There is zero good technology developed by their failure of a dev Evan Duffield. it's all just hype and fluff to justify his enormous scam instamine and the daily masternode payments that go along with that (to the tune of $500 USD / day based on Evan's own admission - which he's probably underreporting)

Hope that's clear enough.

[Rugtilf]

There two coins both have many supporters. We will see which one is better in 10 years time.

[Days]

[...]I say this is what should be done. Let the well known members of both coins give concise reasonings and explanations for their opinion on which is better. It would be beneficial to add links or images pinpointing what they are talking about, and other people can look into it later when they get the chance.  Then after a couple of days when everyone has had their piece about which one is better, the OP should then post up a "pro vs. con" chart for each coin and then let people decide for themselves[...]

What good does it do for us experts to explain as I did upthread that Dash's InstantX subjects the coin to double-spending and forking, and yet n00bs like this one below will completely ignore my (and monsterer's) expertise and continue to spread lies like the following.

In terms of technology and innovation behind both coins you have to give it to Dashcoin[...]Dashcoin with instant transaction is like a dream coming from Bitcoin! and it actually works!  [...]

Newbie please explain to me how you can completely ignore my expertise and then repeat a lie as you did? Are you a sockpuppet account that is intentionally lying?

Do you think I don't know what I am writing about? Do you have any clue how much expertise there  is between myself, monsterer and smooth?

We try to help you all understand, but you ignore us and repeat lies.  

Seems like it best to just you fools lose your money. Go ahead. I don't care what you do.

I am not aligned with XMR nor DRK. I never owned either one, and probably never will.

Sorry not to be rude but I don't know who are you? o.o did you create a crytpo coin before? what's the name of it?

I really looked at Dash.org and looked at https://forum.getmonero.org/...I lurked like probably many did here. I am a Newbie to you it's fine really does not bother me at all.

I also found this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68nC5BQfuuE...I think Monero programmers and community should be instead of saying why is Dashcoin bad be like here is why Monero is better? also they need to stop taking profit from a gambling site and work harder for more releases and more updates which like I have been told in Monero speculation thread hasn't been for a year or so. There are like 3 or 4 "not sure" dashcoin developers yet they did so much o.O if that instamined made them work so hard why the 7 or 8 Monero developers did not work harder if they do a side business from a gambling site they own and they even win there with big amounts such as 21,000 or so? and this is without the crippled miner with & the donation I just don't get it.