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Author Topic: Analysis and list of top big blocks shills (XT #REKT ignorers)  (Read 46559 times)
Cconvert2G36
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January 16, 2016, 06:45:35 AM
 #521

The ol' proverbial hockey stick?
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January 16, 2016, 06:50:23 AM
 #522

Looks like Classic isn't so "democratic" after all: https://github.com/bitcoinclassic/bitcoinclassic/pull/6

Luke Jr. jumped ship too?

Edit: Oh I see. You all are trolling eachother. How very drole. Embarrassed

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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January 16, 2016, 06:52:15 AM
Last edit: January 16, 2016, 07:08:08 AM by iCEBREAKER
 #523

Looks like Classic isn't so "democratic" after all: https://github.com/bitcoinclassic/bitcoinclassic/pull/6

ROFL.  That is so fucking classic!   Grin

ToominCoin FTW   Roll Eyes


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Monero
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whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
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January 16, 2016, 06:55:54 AM
Last edit: January 16, 2016, 05:41:31 PM by iCEBREAKER
 #524

But hey, if you bitches prefer it by Peter Rizun coding shit, go for the fucking it.

Prof. Rizen maintains Classic's Powerpoint repository.

He can code slide shows like nobody else.  You are obviously jealous of his presentation development skillz.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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BlindMayorBitcorn
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January 16, 2016, 07:00:12 AM
 #525

But hey, if you bitches prefer it by Peter Rizun coding shit, go for the fucking it.

Prof. Rizen maintains Classic's Powerpoint repository.

He can code slides shows like nobody else.  You are obviously jealous of his presentation development skillz.

The world was perfectly happy with the reference repository until Blockstream started buying up the most talented, obstinate Core devs.

Listen to reason already!

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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January 16, 2016, 08:26:30 AM
 #526

But hey, if you bitches prefer it by Peter Rizun coding shit, go for the fucking it.
Good riddance! The sooner the better noobs.

How's your day going hdbuck? Seems that they're coming at you from all sides... Power Rangers want segwit signature separation for old nodes... Classic has endorsement from 50% of the hashrate... eek.

Core now officially #REKT; and the Front National/moronero trolls hyperventilating ...
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January 16, 2016, 09:59:01 AM
Last edit: January 16, 2016, 11:56:06 AM by Lauda
 #527

-snip-
Let's not forget that the idea came from gmaxwell and you essentially stole it. These actions I can not support.

Making exampleTM?!  Roll Eyes

I know by fact that the current bitcoin protocol by which I abided and invested was the one not allowing on chain mass adoption scaling coffee tipping bullshit whilst staying in the reach of low technology hardware so everybody got their access to it.

So sorry I am not AWS/USG/BITPAY/SPV/COINBASE/WALLSTREET PUSSY MUNCHER.
Yes, an example with random numbers pulled out of nowhere. Those numbers were not there to be taken as a serious proposal. The current protocol does not even allow enough transactions in order to become a settlement layer. It is not about coffee, it is about everyday spending.

Luke Jr. jumped ship too?

Edit: Oh I see. You all are trolling eachother. How very drole. Embarrassed
So a legit proposal equals to him trolling them? Makes sense.

Over 50% Mining behind Classic now, Its not looking good for Core.
It's easy getting people to support glittering generalities and project their desires onto nebulous, feel-good project pitches.
If a single website and manipulation is all it takes for people to switch over to people like Toomin, then the whole system is a joke and who am I to try to stop it?

As Theymos said "Bitcoin Classic...is poised to be the greatest cryptocurrency since Bitcoin XT."
Couldn't have said it better myself. It is like poison.

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January 16, 2016, 10:19:40 AM
 #528


As Theymos said "Bitcoin Classic...is poised to be the greatest cryptocurrency since Bitcoin XT."
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Yes, you bootlickers of the totalitarians are never able to say better things than such stupidities. You charlatans even can't spell the name of those you are 'criticizing'.
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January 16, 2016, 10:47:43 AM
 #529

many interesting quotes and thought about theymos and the censorship and about the risks of a hard fork.

But also:

Quote
Yes, I think the urgency pushed by larger block proponets plays into a power grab. Right now they are fighting against Core's roadmap that is sufficient to take the pressure off; it also lays the groundwork to solve the rest of the problem in successive stages.

Quote
When dealing with urgent emergencies, one must keep in mind the USA PATRIOT Act, the Reichstag Fire Decree, and Problem-Reaction-Solution in general.

Quote
In other words, they want us to hand Bitcoin over to them.


Quote from: Lauda
Quote from: Bergmann_Christoph
They don't need so much code, they just change blocksize with an xt-like voting to 2MB. And as long as they have the support of major miners they will succeed with it.
if this forces Code to bump to 2 MB it would also be ok. Some people of team big block think we should get rid of core. I don't think so, I believe them to be of a great value for Bitcoin.
If it is easy to code it what are they waiting for then? This is why it is suspicious for me. I could edit the code to 2 MB myself without knowledge of the required languages.


Thank you btcusury, this was an very interesting read. It even made me consider to understand theymos' censorship and ascribe him some kind of heroism.

But yes, what you write is to some kind an eye-opener to understand the small block side.


On the other side you and Lauda seem to fail to understand the other side - the big blockers - and so you built a conspiracy theory about some takeover through "leaders" and "companies" manipulating the markets. The truth may be more simple:

the economy lost faith in core to solve the scalability problem.

Why? From a technical side, core presented a solution (SW) that may be better (I have doubt, but don't want to discuss). But bitcoin is not just technology, it's also economy and politic. It's nothing without exchanges and holders, and a consensus is nothing without a compromise. You seem to recognise this by acknowledging peter_r's grafic. But you don't acknowledge it enough to understand the other side. Maybe this is a result of engineering dominance in core and a lack of understanding of the need of economics and politics.

Try to see it as you were coinbase. The scalability issue is well known for years. In the past it was always said the blocklimit will just be raised. Now we discuss raising it since 1,5 years, and nothing happened by now.

The economy was very patient with core. They never wanted to overthrow them. Economic acteurs usually don't want to make politics, they just want the politics to create and sustain a stable and predictable context. As Jeff Garzik explained, Core's refusal to act is equal to setting this context on risk. Blocks are getting full, we near a point where capacity limit is reached and further growth will be prevented. In business, you usually solve capacity problems long before they get real.

But still no company supportet xt, they all waited for core to act. They didn't want their business environment be damaged by a contentious hardfork.

All hope was that the second scaling conference would be a coup de liberation.

As a technologist you could say: yes, it was a coup de liberation, we have SW (there are reasons to discusss this, but here I don't mind). As a politician seeking consensus through compromise, you can only say, it's a disaster.

Why? Because the roadmap explicitely says: "No blocksize increase at least for 2016." After all the discussion, core can't even comprimise to say: "Ok, we confess to a blocksize increase as soon as possible, but please let us first implement iblt and thin blocks and solve the problem with 2MB-transactions." Huh? There is zero compromise in matter of blocksize. Zero.

More reasons for the economy to loose faith in core:
- luke-jr prefers to lower the blocklimit
- peter todd doublespending coinbase
- core implementing rbf against massive complaint of the community (even with opt-in there are significant problems for not-updated wallet which I don't want to explain here)
- core wants a fee markets to raise = technicians deciding about politics which exceeds their competence and happens with a complete lack of rulesets for the decision = no predictability, no stability
- core denies to some part that there even is a problem with reaching capacity limit ("it's just spam" / "so fees have to raise"), while such an event will significantly limit the growth of nearly all bitcoin companies and make it impossible for many to even get ever profitable
- core defines to some part "legit" and "spammy" transactions thus overstretching their competence
- the defenders of core's decision act "strange" (ddos, censorship)

Do you really need a conspiracious takeover to understand why businesses support classic en mass?

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January 16, 2016, 12:02:26 PM
 #530

Looks like Classic isn't so "democratic" after all: https://github.com/bitcoinclassic/bitcoinclassic/pull/6

ROFL.  That is so fucking classic!   Grin

ToominCoin FTW   Roll Eyes

Is that poutrage? From icebreaker??  Grin

Y U always pick loosing side??   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


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January 16, 2016, 12:06:49 PM
 #531


So a legit proposal equals to him trolling them? Makes sense.


changing POW is a legit proposal? How?  Why?

He submits a PR with a vague title like "Fix mining centralisation"

then lands the bombshell of HOW he wants to do it?

thats a pretty low rent effort.

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January 16, 2016, 12:21:56 PM
 #532


So a legit proposal equals to him trolling them? Makes sense.


changing POW is a legit proposal? How?  Why?

He submits a PR with a vague title like "Fix mining centralisation"

then lands the bombshell of HOW he wants to do it?

thats a pretty low rent effort.

Whether he is trolling or not a Github pull request is the appropriate place to submit finished code ... not consider.it or slack.
He could have at least waited for all the NACk's to come in, but this does set an interesting example how consensus is formed in Classic.

I am not going to whine about censorship , because the Classic maintainers have every right to close that pull request, but lets not lie to ourselves and suggest that Classic is any more democratic than Core .
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January 16, 2016, 12:42:16 PM
Last edit: January 16, 2016, 02:04:43 PM by Lauda
 #533

ROFL.  That is so fucking classic!   Grin

ToominCoin FTW   Roll Eyes
Is that poutrage? From icebreaker??  Grin
Y U always pick loosing side??   Roll Eyes
So when he sided with Core on Core vs XT, he ended up on the loosing side? Makes sense.

Whether he is trolling or not a Github pull request is the appropriate place to submit finished code ... not consider.it or slack.
He could have at least waited for all the NACk's to come in, but this does set an interesting example how consensus is formed in Classic.
I am not going to whine about censorship , because the Classic maintainers have every right to close that pull request, but lets not lie to ourselves and suggest that Classic is any more democratic than Core .
Since they are trying to fork the whole system it is a legit move to bring back decentralization. Classic is not any more democratic than Core which is what we've witnessed with the pull request being closed even before it was discussed. They just want people to believe that it is.



On the other side you and Lauda seem to fail to understand the other side - the big blockers - and so you built a conspiracy theory about some takeover through "leaders" and "companies" manipulating the markets. The truth may be more simple:
-snip-
There's no conspiracy theory. All I'm saying is that they are trying to take over the "power" from Core and this is exactly what is going to happen if Classic does take off. SegWit is much better than a 2 MB block size increase; it will result in a equal amount (increase wise) in addition to carrying some other (very) important benefits along with it. If their intentions are pure, why would they want to fork at a lower consensus threshold (60-70%)? If their intentions were pure they would not even consider anything under 90+% knowing that this would harm the system.

More reasons for the economy to loose faith in core:
- luke-jr prefers to lower the blocklimit
- peter todd doublespending coinbase
- core denies to some part that there even is a problem with reaching capacity limit ("it's just spam" / "so fees have to raise"), while such an event will significantly limit the growth of nearly all bitcoin companies and make it impossible for many to even get ever profitable
- the defenders of core's decision act "strange" (ddos, censorship)
Luke is just 1 developer and his viewpoint should not matter that much (only equally as every other contributors). Peter Todd did it in order to prove something; if anyone else did it also for the same reason he would not be attacked. A good amount of transactions today are spam. I acknowledge the other points aside from DDOS & Censorship. At the time of the "XT DDOS" a lot of nodes were under attack, it is just Core's policy not to publicly "panic" each time this happens. The alleged Censorship is debatable as far as reddit is concerned (I can not discuss this as I'm not active there), however no censorship was present on BTCT.


Update:
Corrections to post (more are probably needed).


Update 2:
I was not talking about you.

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January 16, 2016, 01:58:45 PM
 #534


So when he sided with Core on Core vs XT, he ended up on the loosing side? Makes sense.


Nope. I've been on the same side all along. Only you just can't see that.

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January 16, 2016, 02:11:47 PM
 #535


So a legit proposal equals to him trolling them? Makes sense.


changing POW is a legit proposal? How?  Why?

He submits a PR with a vague title like "Fix mining centralisation"

then lands the bombshell of HOW he wants to do it?

thats a pretty low rent effort.

How does one miss this? This is the kind of infantile horse shit Core is becoming known for. Put that zealot on a leash! Roll Eyes

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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January 16, 2016, 03:18:02 PM
Last edit: January 16, 2016, 03:32:43 PM by Bergmann_Christoph
 #536

Quote from: Lauda
On the other side you and Lauda seem to fail to understand the other side - the big blockers - and so you built a conspiracy theory about some takeover through "leaders" and "companies" manipulating the markets. The truth may be more simple:
-snip-
There's no conspiracy theory. -snip- If their intentions were pure they would not even consider anything under 90+% knowing that this would harm the system.

You sniped the most important part of my quote
Quote from: Bergmann_Christoph
The truth may be more simple: the economy lost faith in core to solve the scalability problem.

And yes, this is a takeover. Core forgot that bitcoin is not just development, but also economy and politic. They ignored the needs of the economy, and the politics of consensus. It's not fair to only blame big blockers when we slide into a contentious hardfork.

If core only had said after Scaling workshop II: "we do 2MB now, than SW, than 4 Blocks" we had never been in this danger. Maybe their way can be considered technical better - but politically it was not the safest and secure, but the most dangerous way: the way that increased the risk of a contentious hardfork.

Maybe classic will teach core that consensus is not just technology but interdisciplinary.

About the threshold: As far as I'm informed, they didn't release the conditions by now. Why judge their intentions on things they did not release?

Quote from: Bergmann_Christoph
More reasons for the economy to loose faith in core:
- luke-jr prefers to lower the blocklimit
- peter todd doublespending coinbase
- core implementing rbf against massive complaint of the community (even with opt-in there are significant problems for not-updated wallet which I don't want to explain here)
- core wants a fee markets to raise = technicians deciding about politics which exceeds their competence and happens with a complete lack of rulesets for the decision = no predictability, no stability
- core denies to some part that there even is a problem with reaching capacity limit ("it's just spam" / "so fees have to raise"), while such an event will significantly limit the growth of nearly all bitcoin companies and make it impossible for many to even get ever profitable
- core defines to some part "legit" and "spammy" transactions thus overstretching their competence
- the defenders of core's decision act "strange" (ddos, censorship)

Do you really need a conspiracious takeover to understand why businesses support classic en mass?

Quote from: Lauda
Luke is just 1 developer and his viewpoint should not matter that much (only equally as every other contributors).

He is one of the Top-10-contributors and seems more in line with so called "developer-consensus" than andresen and garzik.

Quote
Peter Todd did it in order to prove something; if anyone else did it also for the same reason he would not be attacked.

When did companies become laboratory-mices for developers to publicly proove a thesis?

At least it was bad style from Todd, especially so short after coinbase said they support lightning and bitcoin.org relistet them. And if I remember correctly, on top of this Todd released a python-script how to doublespend coinbase.

Todd is another one of the most important people to deal with. Imagine you are a CEO.

But yes, as a good ceo, you should be able to ignore bad behaviour of an associate of your partners.

Quote
A good amount of transactions today are spam.

Define spam.
Is Gambling spam?
Daily-payouts of cloudminers?
Every kind of blockchain-graffiti?
everything < 1$?
<5$

Who decides what spam is and what usecases to restrict? If you decide now that some kind of transaction are considered as spam and thus prohibited, you act like a regulator. Every node and miner can decide to prohibit spam - and should be allowed to chose his own definition of spam - but we don't need a central regime where a bunch of people decide which transactions are not worth to get in the chain.

Quote
I acknowledge the other points aside from DDOS & Censorship. At the time of the "XT DDOS" a lot of nodes were under attack, it is just Core's policy not to publicly "panic" each time this happens.

Really? That's something I never heard.

Nice to hear you acknowledge the other points.

Quote
The alleged Censorship is debatable as far as reddit is concerned (I can not discuss this as I'm not active there), however no censorship was present on BTCT.

I remember posts not deleted but moved in altcoin-section. Hiding something in a niche is also some kind of censorship.

But after all censorship itself is not a problem for companies. They are interested in profit, not in politics or ethics. As long as it doesn't destabilize the economic environment or damages the ones reputation, companies have no problem with censorshop.

So I think this point is from minor relevance - just some marketing pressure.

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January 16, 2016, 03:30:38 PM
 #537

Whether he is trolling or not a Github pull request is the appropriate place to submit finished code ... not consider.it or slack.
He could have at least waited for all the NACk's to come in, but this does set an interesting example how consensus is formed in Classic.

I am not going to whine about censorship , because the Classic maintainers have every right to close that pull request, but lets not lie to ourselves and suggest that Classic is any more democratic than Core.
Having a wide range of choice between multiple implementations, is in fact more democratic compared to just having Core as the singular choice, which in reality is not really a choice at all, when there is only one option to choose from.
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January 16, 2016, 03:36:33 PM
 #538

Whether he is trolling or not a Github pull request is the appropriate place to submit finished code ... not consider.it or slack.
He could have at least waited for all the NACk's to come in, but this does set an interesting example how consensus is formed in Classic.

I am not going to whine about censorship , because the Classic maintainers have every right to close that pull request, but lets not lie to ourselves and suggest that Classic is any more democratic than Core.
Having a wide range of choice between multiple implementations, is in fact more democratic compared to just having Core as the singular choice, which in reality is not really a choice at all, when there is only one option to choose from.

hmnope


I don't believe a second, compatible implementation of Bitcoin will ever be a good idea.So much of the design depends on all nodes getting exactly identical results in lockstep that a second implementation would be a menace to the network. The MIT license is compatible with all other licenses and commercial uses, so there is no need to rewrite it from a licensing standpoint.


Good idea or not, SOMEBODY will try to mess up the network (or co-opt it for their own use) sooner or later.  They'll either hack the existing code or write their own version, and will be a menace to the network.

I admire the flexibility of the scripts-in-a-transaction scheme, but my evil little mind immediately starts to think of ways I might abuse it.  I could encode all sorts of interesting information in the TxOut script, and if non-hacked clients validated-and-then-ignored those transactions it would be a useful covert broadcast communication channel.

That's a cool feature until it gets popular and somebody decides it would be fun to flood the payment network with millions of transactions to transfer the latest Lady Gaga video to all their friends...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195.msg1613#msg1613
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January 16, 2016, 03:53:10 PM
 #539

From the same thread:

Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
A second version would be a massive development and maintenance hassle for me. It's hard enough maintaining backward compatibility while upgrading the network without a second version locking things in. If the second version screwed up, the user experience would reflect badly on both, although it would at least reinforce to users the importance of staying with the official version. If someone was getting ready to fork a second version, I would have to air a lot of disclaimers about the risks of using a minority version. This is a design where the majority version wins if there's any disagreement, and that can be pretty ugly for the minority version and I'd rather not go into it, and I don't have to as long as there's only one version.

Quote from: BitcoinXio
Clearly he is saying [to me] that if you fork bitcoin into another chain there are huge implications to this, and the bitcoin users on the minority chain could lose money, which was his concern. Knowing that Satoshi was almost always advocating for big blocks, wanting bitcoin to one day compete with "Visa" and that the 1MB artificial blocksize was only a temporary anti-DOS measure, I'm fairly confident in saying that when Satoshi wrote this, he had no idea that years later we would be fighting about the blocksize and wanting to fork bitcoin into a second implementation because the entire bitcoin community feels different than a small core set of developers.

Therefore I think that you are taking this quote out of context.
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January 16, 2016, 04:00:05 PM
 #540

I find it surprising that you are even still trying to use Satoshi to support your position, considering that you the one that is going against his fundamental vision.

Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
While I don't think Bitcoin is practical for smaller micropayments right now, it will eventually be as storage and bandwidth costs continue to fall.  If Bitcoin catches on on a big scale, it may already be the case by that time.  Another way they can become more practical is if I implement client-only mode and the number of network nodes consolidates into a smaller number of professional server farms.  Whatever size micropayments you need will eventually be practical.  I think in 5 or 10 years, the bandwidth and storage will seem trivial.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
Long before the network gets anywhere near as large as that, it would be safe for users to use Simplified Payment Verification (section Cool to check for double spending, which only requires having the chain of block headers, or about 12KB per day.  Only people trying to create new coins would need to run network nodes.  At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to specialists with server farms of specialized hardware.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The eventual solution will be to not care how big it gets.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
But for now, while it’s still small, it’s nice to keep it small so new users can get going faster. When I eventually implement client-only mode, that won’t matter much anymore.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The current system where every user is a network node is not the intended configuration for large scale. That would be like every Usenet user runs their own NNTP server. The design supports letting users just be users.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The threshold can easily be changed in the future.  We can decide to increase it when the time comes.  It's a good idea to keep it lower as a circuit breaker and increase it as needed.  If we hit the threshold now, it would almost certainly be some kind of flood and not actual use.  Keeping the threshold lower would help limit the amount of wasted disk space in that event.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
I’m sure that in 20 years there will either be very large transaction volume or no volume.
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